A Challenge to Fremantle Supporters here

[Macca19]

now i dunno what happened to the poll with my name in it, it obviously got deleted.

What i have to say is....Ill issue a challenge to you Fremantle fans.

You all think i slag fremantle just for the sake of it for some personal conflict.

I have no problem with - the club, the supporters, the team, the players, the ground, the colours, the logo or anything else.

I believe that everything i have said about Fremantle has been founded, has been fact or just personal opinion which ive backed up with reasons. I do not believe i have slagged fremantle just for the sake of it, or have lied about anything ive said about the things ive said about fremantle and their form and players.

The challenge is - Freo fans...please go thru my posts, do a search on what ive said about fremantle, and i will say you will find NOTHING i have said about fremantle has been a lie or just trolling or slagging for the hell of it. I believe everything ive said towards fremantle has been the truth and that you supporters are just incredibly touchy.

IF you decide to do a search and come up with 1 incident where i have unneccesarily bagged fremantle, or lied about freo or slagged them without reason, then i will NOT post on the fremantle board or mian board or any board bad words about fremantle. I will only ever congratulate Fremantle on wins, and i will not say a bad word about fremantle EVER.

Thats the challenge...you can accept it. If you dont find anything, (which i dont believe you will) then either put me on your ignore lists, or put up with what i have to say about fremantle

your call

[RacerX]

Hey Macca,

I deleted the poll because in hindsight it was a bit too much of a personal attack. Apologies if you took offense.

As for your challenge, well you make heaps of posts .... heaps of long posts. I'm just gunna take your word for it.

[sabre_ac]

Macca I know at the begging of the season I made some comments about Port with comparison to Fremantle.
And those comments were not unfounded.

That was it, when freo started to loose I held my tounge about Port.
Now I can understand some backlash on you part.
But after every game you have been the first to rub it in.
You have been the first to comment on Freos weaknesses.
You seem to become the side that defeated the dockers number one supporter for a day.

You comments may not have been unfounded. But you are rubbing it in.
The fact that you repeat it over and over,
The fact that you kick teams when they are down
And that you resort to personal attacks about the dignity of supporters. Strongly suggests a charector flaw on your part , that thankfully will not be found supporting the Dockers.
Maybe its the success of port of its 100+ years that has created supporters like you.
Who knows

But here is a lesson.
Rub it in once, dont continue your attacks.
Supporters of teams will not admit defeat and attack there own club to please opposition supporters.
If you are loosing an arguement, resorting to personal attacks usually means that you have lost.

Time will come when Freo will not be down the bottom. And I hope your still on the board. Because I will not forget these COWARDLY attacks by you.

No other supporter has gone so far out of there way to attack Fremantle like yourself.
Made even worse, by that Freo and Port havent even played this year.

[Macca19]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
Macca I know at the begging of the season I made some comments about Port with comparison to Fremantle.
And those comments were not unfounded.

That was it, when freo started to loose I held my tounge about Port.
Now I can understand some backlash on you part.
But after every game you have been the first to rub it in.
You have been the first to comment on Freos weaknesses.
You seem to become the side that defeated the dockers number one supporter for a day.

You comments may not have been unfounded. But you are rubbing it in.
The fact that you repeat it over and over,
The fact that you kick teams when they are down
And that you resort to personal attacks about the dignity of supporters. Strongly suggests a charector flaw on your part , that thankfully will not be found supporting the Dockers.
Maybe its the success of port of its 100+ years that has created supporters like you.
Who knows

But here is a lesson.
Rub it in once, dont continue your attacks.
Supporters of teams will not admit defeat and attack there own club to please opposition supporters.
If you are loosing an arguement, resorting to personal attacks usually means that you have lost.

Time will come when Freo will not be down the bottom. And I hope your still on the board. Because I will not forget these COWARDLY attacks by you.

No other supporter has gone so far out of there way to attack Fremantle like yourself.
Made even worse, by that Freo and Port havent even played this year.

You say i make cowardly attacks on fremantle. You say "supporters like me". What do you mean by that?? You mean supporters that tell the truth?? Please show me these cowardly acts that i have made against freo. Please show me where i have purposely trolled. The fact is i have never once bagged fremantle for the sake of bagging them. In fact most of what i have said youve taken to heart. Like i will say "freo would be the only side to lose by 40+ points while leading in the last quarter 2 weeks in a row" and you think its an anti freo, cowardly act.

Please...im waiting to see these cowardly acts. Ill ive ever said is the truth and facts like "fremantle dont have the ability at the moment to play 4 full quarters of football" yet you find that statement as a cowardly attack on your club. In other words...its bull********. Its the truth, not an attack.

Now please...do a search...its not hard...just put Macca19 in the name section, and 'fremantle' or 'freo' in the keyword section, and it will do the job for you, then you can read and see that i have not once bagged freo...ive only ever stated the truth, facts, or a personal opinion with reasons to back it up.

You take everything to heart. I dont know why...everything i say which is NOT meant to be an attack on freo you take as an attack. Now that is a character flaw on your part.

Now, the challenge is still up. Find a quote of mine where i have purposely attacked freo with no fact or truth in it, and i will not mention a bad word about freo ever again, and will only ever congratulate them

[sabre_ac]

What does cowardness or cowardly acts have to do with wether you lied or told the truth.
Kicking teams while they are down is cowardly.
No doubt about it.
Ramming home you point constantly is not a good thing.

Being the first to congratulate a team when they defeat Fremantle and the first to comment on fremantle performances. Strongly suggests that you have something against Freo.
Quite often you comment on Freo's performance, and rub the victory in before before a supporter from the team that one has.

Dont tell me that you dont have a problem with Fremantle.
Facts point to that you do.

I knock the eagles far more than i know the power.
I have attacked the eagles supporter base and there players.
But even they dont attack freo as much as you do.

[Macca19]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
What does cowardness or cowardly acts have to do with wether you lied or told the truth.
Kicking teams while they are down is cowardly.
No doubt about it.
Ramming home you point constantly is not a good thing.

Being the first to congratulate a team when they defeat Fremantle and the first to comment on fremantle performances. Strongly suggests that you have something against Freo.
Quite often you comment on Freo's performance, and rub the victory in before before a supporter from the team that one has.

Dont tell me that you dont have a problem with Fremantle.
Facts point to that you do.

I knock the eagles far more than i know the power.
I have attacked the eagles supporter base and there players.
But even they dont attack freo as much as you do.

Again, show me how i have knocked a team when they are down. I have not knocked freo when they are down. Ive stated truthful things about games. Ive stated my opinons on why they have happened. You call it cowardly kicking a bottom club. I call it stating the truth when noone else has spoken about the subject before. I feel for Freo. port went thru the same last year and it sux, and i am NOT one to rub in a loss unless it is deserved or rub in the failures of a club. I honestly do not see how me saying "well freo lost after being in front again, they obviously have problems" thats not rubbing it in.

Also...i have NOT posted after every loss as you have stated. Only 3 or 4 times. Ive only started maybe 1 or 2 threads in the freo board. Yet AGAIN, you are wrong about me having a problem with freo. Me stating an opinion, or the final scores and a review of a game is not having a problem with freo. Im not a liar. If i had a problem with fremantle i would state that i do and why i would have that problem. Seeing as i dont have a problem with freo, then there is nothing to state is there?
Why would i lie about something stupid like that?? If i had a problem, beleive me, youd know about it. If i had a problem with freo, youd be getting more than just facts and figures from me about fremantles performances of late. If i had a problem with fremantle i would BAG the club, not just state truths and facts about them. I would be like Easty in other words.

You can choose to believe that or not, but its the truth, i have no reason to lie about having a problem with freo. I dont remember congratulating a team after being freo...maybe West Coast but thats the only time ive said "good on ya for beating them".

[QT]

Gawd, not Macca vs Sabre again!

[anchor man]

This may be totally irrelevant to the discussion but here goes.
Let us look at the way the Dockers were brought in to the competition first.
1} we had the option of having our own identity {fremantle Whatever } or the Fremantle Lions.No choice
2} we came in to the competition 5years to soon.Our local competition was not strong enough to sustain two Afl sides.
3}To compare Freo and Port is unfair.Port ARE a team of over a hundred years behind them.Fremantle has the tradition of the Fremantle sides but let us face it we hate each others guts,we are a side like Brissie we had to start from scratch.
4}lets face it we have made some diabolical decisions in our drafting but as a new club that was to be expected.
5} when we are performing so badly we must accept criticism.Really at the moment we are the worst team in the competition.Our position on the ladder tells us that.
6}we will {neither will the Eagles}never achieve any thing as aclub while we have the WAFC running us.They control our board and the board does exactly what the commission tells them.

I know that this will not appease a lot of Docker supporters but the truth Hurts.

[sabre_ac]

Fremantles Problems lie plain and simply in the hands of neesham.
His game plan I agree was ahead of its time, but he was so sure in his abilities and techniques that he belived he could achieve success without the cattle.
And hence refused to take part in the draft and only drafted local when he did.
And when he failed Fremanlte was left with noting.
As far as im concerned we have only been in hte competion since 98.And the rebuilding stage began after the 99 daft.

[anchor man]

I agree to some extent but we did draw some real duds in our first year,Gilbert,Ridley,HuttonWolf,Muir,Groom.the list goes on.
Our main problem stems from the fact that we did not and still do not draw enough from what our name suggests FREMANTLE.We are still in the thros of building our tradition.
The Claremont influence in the initial team has been detrimental to our progress.
Neesham did set us back but it was more the players we selected that has been our draw back.I know this will upset those not of South favour but just as an example of the players the Dockers could have selected,Dorotich,Porter,Brad Collard.Laugh or criticise if you will but remember they were FREMANTLE boys through and through.Something we were lacking.I just mention them as a South Supporter but i am sure the mob from over the other side would have had some players there who they would say should have been selected.And I am sure there were we hate each other but we appreciate the players for their dedication to the clubs they play for.LONG LIVE THE BULLGOGS AND fREMANTLE DOCKERS.

[Balip]

Imagine what gerard Nessham could have done if he had recruited better.

Anchorman I agree 110% with your comments re the WAFC, that setup is the worst case of Jobs for the boys. They only get their mates on and there is no accountability.

[Balip]

One player that I thought should have been drafted was Bilcich but he never was.

[GoEagles]

anchor man - I agree with a lot of what your saying. Fremantle never really 'embraced' their local culture from their debut to the AFL in 1995. Players who I believe should never of played with your club include to name a few... Clark, Burrows, Godden, Leach, Madigan, Mann, Merillo, Whitelaw. The bulk of these players were from Claremont - Neesham's hunting ground. Players who should of been there in 95 are Malaxos, Treleven, Harding, Stockden, Bilcich, Lockyer, Condon (East Fremantle) and Collard, Dorotich, Bill Krakouer, Bootsma - although eventually you picked him up last year, Atkins, Peter Worsfold.

[anchor man]

Agree with you on the players not picked,I didn't mean to leave out East players just couldn't remember who they had at the time.But the players you mention should certainly have been looked at.Marty Atkins may have lacjed the polish but he would have made up for it in endeavour.

[Macca19]

Originally posted by GoEagles
anchor man - I agree with a lot of what your saying. Fremantle never really 'embraced' their local culture from their debut to the AFL in 1995. Players who I believe should never of played with your club include to name a few... Clark, Burrows, Godden, Leach, Madigan, Mann, Merillo, Whitelaw. The bulk of these players were from Claremont - Neesham's hunting ground. Players who should of been there in 95 are Malaxos, Treleven, Harding, Stockden, Bilcich, Lockyer, Condon (East Fremantle) and Collard, Dorotich, Bill Krakouer, Bootsma - although eventually you picked him up last year, Atkins, Peter Worsfold.

i may be thinking of the wrong people here, but Steve Malaxos and Jon Dorotich???

For a start - Malaxos would be 34 in 1995. Dorotich - 33 or 34 as well. (mind you i could be thinking of completly different people) but that woulda been worse for Freo i reckon. They did the right thing in seleciting young players for the future and now older players for the current. The thing is tho...Freo DID recruit very well...they just traded very very very badly. Like, Groom for Mcleod, Gilbert for Farmer...trading Phil Matera and Morrision away.

It would be the same if Port when going into pick their original squad picked Port legends Tim Ginever, Rohan Smith, Darren Smith, Roger Delaney, Northeast, Borlase...i mean it woulda been murder.
You gotta pick with your head and not iwth your heart here. Dorotich and Malaxos both were finished in AFL in the early 90s. I dont think they would of made it somehow. but thats just my opinion. Also Peter Worsfold had a crack at AFL footy with Brisbane and failed...so would he of been a good pickup??

[Macca19]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
Fremantles Problems lie plain and simply in the hands of neesham.
His game plan I agree was ahead of its time, but he was so sure in his abilities and techniques that he belived he could achieve success without the cattle.
And hence refused to take part in the draft and only drafted local when he did.
And when he failed Fremanlte was left with noting.
As far as im concerned we have only been in hte competion since 98.And the rebuilding stage began after the 99 daft.

dunno if thats fair enough on Neesham. The game plan is a very good plan.. the short game, when executed is very handy. Port made the finals with it in 1999. Port Magpies use it to effect in the SANFL at times against certain opposition.
I think Freos problem was they didnt have the perfect skills needed to pull it off, hence a number of turnovers which would result in goals to the opposition.

On the claremont business and who freo drafted this is what i found:

Perth - 5 players
East Perth - 1
West Perth - 2
Subiaco - 4
Swan Districts - 3
Claremont - 9
South Freo - 1
East Freo - 1
Victoria - 4
South Australia - 2

thats what i could find anyway

[anchor man]

Originally posted by Macca19


i may be thinking of the wrong people here, but Steve Malaxos and Jon Dorotich???

For a start - Malaxos would be 34 in 1995. Dorotich - 33 or 34 as well. (mind you i could be thinking of completly different people) but that woulda been worse for Freo i reckon. They did the right thing in seleciting young players for the future and now older players for the current. The thing is tho...Freo DID recruit very well...they just traded very very very badly. Like, Groom for Mcleod, Gilbert for Farmer...trading Phil Matera and Morrision away.

It would be the same if Port when going into pick their original squad picked Port legends Tim Ginever, Rohan Smith, Darren Smith, Roger Delaney, Northeast, Borlase...i mean it woulda been murder.
You gotta pick with your head and not iwth your heart here.

Dorotich and Malaxos both were finished in AFL in the early 90s.
I dont think they would of made it somehow. but thats just my opinion. Also Peter Worsfold had a crack at AFL footy with Brisbane and failed...so would he of been a good pickup??

Dorro may have been getting on in years but had just finished with Carlton and still kicked a hundred goals in the WAFL.He was big and strong and it was what we needed at the time he still was able to demand a bit of respect not like a lot of others we brought back.Stavva I am not so sure about he probably would fit into the same catergory as those we brought back.
And again with Dorro he was FREMANTLE through and through.
It is my belief that Farmer was never ever going to play for the Dockers and this came from a source within the club and asked to be traded.Apparently he did not want to play either WA side for some reason.

[GoEagles]

anchor - exactly. Dorotich and Malaxos had Fremantle blood in their veins. They would of embraced the Fremantle culture and spirit - unlike for these new unproven kids who never took the next step. Both these players (Dorotich and Malaxos) did continue to play AFTER 1995, so there was no reason to suggest that even 2-3 years service out of them would of been a wrong move. The key to success is having a balance of youth and mature players. Apart from Ben Allen, Fremantle seemed to lack the leaders who could nuture their new kids coming up through the ranks.

[spring6]

Sabre anyone who thinks that freo's problems are plain and simple is on drugs.It is no-one person's fault least of all neesham! Arent you the one who reckon's drum is great and should have his contract renewed? Please!

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by spring6
Sabre anyone who thinks that freo's problems are plain and simple is on drugs.It is no-one person's fault least of all neesham! Arent you the one who reckon's drum is great and should have his contract renewed? Please!

Take one look at the players Neeshame traded away and delisted.And then picture them in our team now, belive me it would be a very different team today.
Neeshame belived so strongly in his game plan he thought he coudl do it with average players.
That alone is criminal, not to mention the players he lost.

Though it may not be entirely his fault, most of the blame lies with him. He put the club back 5 years from the outset, and then wondered why success never came.

I never said drum is to be resigned, but i did say that Drum did nearly all that could be required of him with the little he was given when neesham left the club.

My on request was the the entire board b reshuffled and the people at the top take the fall with Drum.

[anchor man]

Sabre you can't be serious about the players who have gone most of them have come back here to play.They had the chance to prove themselves when they were yere but gave J/S,the oppurtunity was there and they didn't take it.Of the players who went I believe that only Abrahams Is one we may have let go and has done well.But if you know anything about our club you will know that he had personal problems and was never ever going to perform for us in the manner he has at thr Roos,He was fat and lazy when he played for us.Chisolm and Dhurkay are both out of the system and back here or chisolm is.Dhurkay is supposed to be here playing for South as well.I can remember back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Neesham and it is almost a turning back of the clock.We were saying the same things then as we are now.We may have had a few more wins on the board but we are still playing the same old tune.We at least now have some good kids at the club,but can we keep them all????????

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by anchor man
Sabre you can't be serious about the players who have gone most of them have come back here to play.They had the chance to prove themselves when they were yere but gave J/S,the oppurtunity was there and they didn't take it.Of the players who went I believe that only Abrahams Is one we may have let go and has done well.But if you know anything about our club you will know that he had personal problems and was never ever going to perform for us in the manner he has at thr Roos,He was fat and lazy when he played for us.Chisolm and Dhurkay are both out of the system and back here or chisolm is.Dhurkay is supposed to be here playing for South as well.I can remember back to the GOOD OLD DAYS of Neesham and it is almost a turning back of the clock.We were saying the same things then as we are now.We may have had a few more wins on the board but we are still playing the same old tune.We at least now have some good kids at the club,but can we keep them all????????

Anchor man some of the players that we lost have gone on to become champoins.
Not to mention the Draft pics that we lost.
Farmer is a prime example, he was dying to play for the club. But we traded him for gilbert.
I have got this off the footynews website, its an article written by David Atkinson.
I realise that sum of these players were taken as concession picks by clubs.
But allot of these were on our list, and allot were taken with pics that we traded away.

FB Matthew Nicks Kingsley Hunter Darryl Wakelin
HB Chad Morrison Brad Ottens Matthew Collins
C Glenn Freeborn Luke Power Gavin Mitchell
HF Leon Davis Scott Lucas Brad Green
FF Jeff Farmer Matthew Lloyd Phil Matera
Foll Jeff White Andrew McLeod Peter Bell

Now some of those players would have been pretty handy pickups.
Especially the likes of Green, Mc Loaed, Farmer and Lucas.

[sabre_ac]

Players like Bell were delisted because they were too slow.
Now I understand at the time, Neeshams game plan was setup around speed.

So if that is so why trade away Farmer?

Neeshams main problem was arrogance.
He belived he could perform miracles without enough quality players.
And by refusing to take part in the national draft, crippled the club.

[Macca19]

Originally posted by sabre_ac

FB Matthew Nicks Kingsley Hunter Darryl Wakelin
HB Chad Morrison Brad Ottens Matthew Collins
C Glenn Freeborn Luke Power Gavin Mitchell
HF Leon Davis Scott Lucas Brad Green
FF Jeff Farmer Matthew Lloyd Phil Matera
Foll Jeff White Andrew McLeod Peter Bell


Some of those play ers fremantle NEVER had in the first place. They never had Lucas, Lloyd, Power, Green, Ottens, Davis. They are names of the players that clubs picked up for traded draft picks. Like Freo traded pick no.2 for Chris Bond to richmond, and richmond picked up Brad Ottens. That doesnt mean freo had ottens, they could of chosen one of 100,000 other players in the draft.

[anchor man]

Originally posted by Macca19


Some of those play ers fremantle NEVER had in the first place. They never had Lucas, Lloyd, Power, Green, Ottens, Davis. They are names of the players that clubs picked up for traded draft picks. Like Freo traded pick no.2 for Chris Bond to richmond, and richmond picked up Brad Ottens. That doesnt mean freo had ottens, they could of chosen one of 100,000 other players in the draft.

Thanks Macca well said this has been my arguement all along.We have never had these players on our list.
Sabre you say Farmer wanted to play for the Dockers I disagree.My information is that he did not want to play footy here in the West but in Victoria.So by my reckoning he is not one we let go.He did not want to play for the Eagles either,can't say I blame him for that though.

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Macca19


Some of those play ers fremantle NEVER had in the first place. They never had Lucas, Lloyd, Power, Green, Ottens, Davis. They are names of the players that clubs picked up for traded draft picks. Like Freo traded pick no.2 for Chris Bond to richmond, and richmond picked up Brad Ottens. That doesnt mean freo had ottens, they could of chosen one of 100,000 other players in the draft.

Did you read what I said at all.
I said twice that not all those players were on our list. And that some were taken with draft pics that we traded away.
Macca your little grudge has gone too far.

And yes Ottens would have been taken. The top 5 picks are usually standouts and there is rarely any surprise picks.
I remeber there was talk of who would go 1 and 2 long before draft day back when Ottens was drafted.
So yes that does mean Ottens would have been picked up.
Either way 2nd pick for bond is was shocking decision.

Anchor man
Well from what I heard Farmer was dying to play for the club.

[anchor man]

Sorry Sabre but you are wrong on Farmer he did not want to play here in the west with either club.Take it as read.Again who are the Players we had on our list who have gone on to be "CHAMPIONS".I think Abrahams is the only one you could almost put in that catergory.