View Full Version : Battle of the Top 10s - Eagles vs Crows
Black JuJu
4 Mar 2004, 22:20
Howdy folks, in light of the upcoming scratchie, hows abouts we compare our Top 10 lists, as discussed here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101688)
Mark Ricciuto
Andrew McLeod
Darren Jarman
Shaun Rehn
Ben Hart
Nigel Smart
Tony Modra
Tony McGuinness
Mark Bickley
Andrew Jarman
VS
Peter Matera
Glen Jakovich
Dean Kemp
Guy McKenna
Ben Cousins
John Worsfold
Chris Lewis
Ashley McIntosh
Peter Sumich
Chris Mainwaring
For a quick reference, that's
22 All Aussie Selections for the Crows vs 22 All Aussie/Team of the Year Selections for the Eagles.
13 Premiership Medallions for the Crows vs. 18 Premiership Medallions for the Eagles.
3 Crows Captains vs. 4 Eagles Captains
Best and Fairest -
14 Eagles vs. 8 Crows.
That's all well and good, but lets break it down here, if you were building a team from scratch, which group would you pick ?
Now obviously, bias will come into it, but try your best to take off the blinkers and have a good look at the 2 awesome lists - I'll try bring some Eagles guys in to this, so I'm not just talking to Crows people here.
Remember, it's just their careers at the Eagles or the Crows (i.e. not the Jarman's elsewhere or Modra at Freo etc)
So yes ! - nothing destructive intended, have a go. :)
Stiffy_18
4 Mar 2004, 22:27
I pick the Crows for the following reasons.
I am a believer in building a side around a bloody good ruckman. I think good football judges say that if you are building a side from the scratch the first thing you pick is a bloody good ruckman followed by a bloody good CHF.
The Crows have a gun ruckman in Rehn, and while that list doesn't have a gun CHF, Modra was a very good FF who on his day could beat anyone. Good ruckman and Key forward that is a major goal kicker is what tips the scales in the favour of the Crows.
Noww the forward can't be effective if he gets crap delivery, that where the likes of McLeod and D. Jarman come in.
To be honest there is not much in it but what tipped it in Crows favour is a genuine gun ruckman in Rehn.
Considering there wasnt an eagles ruckman in that side, then of course you would build your side around the ruckman..
Why not build your side around a solid defence? With a solid backline of: Glen Jakovich, Guy McKenna, John Worsfold & Ashley McIntosh not many teams would post a good score against this defence in their prime now are they?
With a good midfield of Kemp, Cousins & Mainwaring delivering the ball to Sumich, Lewis and Matera the side would be able to match it with nearly any team in the AFL..
I realise that there is bias in my response, but it is hard to pick out of the two, because they are so evenly spread..
Just my two cents worth ;)
Cheers, Juddy03
Leaping Lindner
4 Mar 2004, 22:47
This is a bit hard for me.As most of you know Mrs Lindner is an Eagles fan, and the other night we were watching "How the west won" (the Eagles in 94)on Fox Footy and reliving some old memories. And I've got to say it they were ******** awesome. Matera(just about at his peak) and Jakovich (pre injury) were amazing. Stiffy is right that the Eagles lack a ruckman (in this list) but when your backline consists of McIntosh, Worsfold,McKenna and Jakovich do you really need one?
The Eagles backs are ahead for mine.
Midfielders I'd just about call a tie.
Up forward Eagles have Sumich (with Lewis at H/forward and Matera adding some bite from the midfield) whilst we have Modra (with back up from D.Jarman and Roo and Macca from the midfield).Fud's left foot tips this to the Crows I think.
Rehn was one of the truly great ruckmen , whilst Mainwaring was one of the best wingmen of the modern era.
Also plenty of toughness in both lists.
Oh bugger it. I'll call it even!
(makes for a happy household!)
Black JuJu
4 Mar 2004, 22:51
You know, the first thing that jumped to mind with the 2 lists were the Crows had the only ruckman, and the Eagles had more genuine key position players (FF,CHF,CHB,FB).
Interestingly, the Eagles won 2 flags without a dominant CHF (Hynes and Ball were solid players in 1994, Langdon in 1992) or a dominant ruckman (Harding and Turnball both good quality, but not dominant) - rather the team was based around the excellent defense and midfield units - also a great full forward in Sumich, who's record stacks up not bad against Modra's at the Crows.
I guess it's more a matter of a opinion of what is more important when building a team.
Stiffy_18
4 Mar 2004, 22:52
Originally posted by juddy03
Considering there wasnt an eagles ruckman in that side, then of course you would build your side around the ruckman. Actually I stated it on numerous occasions on this board that ruckman is the player you build a team around. But I agree it was an easy copout:p
Just on building you team around tough defence, I am not so sure. if you have a very good midfield generally you will get away with makeshift defence. For example Port last year. On paper they didn't have an overly impressive defence. It was made up of 6 hard workers who played to the structure. Wanganeen and probably Montgomery were the 2 stand outs. However, statictically they were the best defence in the AFL simply because their midfield won more than their fair share of the ball and their backline played to a particular structure that made it very difficult for the opposition to score.
Another, plus for building your side around a ruckman like Rehn is that if you have a makeshift defence you could allways play the big fella a kick behind the play to help out the defenders. Something that Rehn played to perfection.:)
Stiffy_18
4 Mar 2004, 22:56
Originally posted by Black JuJu
Interestingly, the Eagles won 2 flags without a dominant CHF (Hynes and Ball were solid players in 1994, Langdon in 1992) or a dominant ruckman (Harding and Turnball both good quality, but not dominant) - rather the team was based around the excellent defense and midfield units - also a great full forward in Sumich, who's record stacks up not bad against Modra's at the Crows. And the interesting point also is that the Crows won it without a gun KPP apart from Modra. We had Caven who was very good but not in the same league as Jakovich and McIntosh. Other than that we had Robran at CHF who was solid but not dominant (Although he had an odd game during the year where he would dominate) and servicable FB in Jameson.
Its actually a pretty interesting argument this. Good thread.:)
Leaping Lindner
4 Mar 2004, 23:10
Regarding the ruckman situation. If you were picking an all time Crows team to play an all time Eagles team (eg: 22 Players each) you'd have to say Gardiner would make the best 22 Eagles of all time so problem solved.
By the way Black JuJu my wife agrees with your list (this despite her threatening Peter Sumich with his life at various games over the years :D ).
Leaping Lindner
4 Mar 2004, 23:12
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
And the interesting point also is that the Crows won it without a gun KPP apart from Modra. We had Caven who was very good but not in the same league as Jakovich and McIntosh. Other than that we had Robran at CHF who was solid but not dominant (Although he had an odd game during the year where he would dominate) and servicable FB in Jameson.
Its actually a pretty interesting argument this. Good thread.:)
Caven made the team of the decade (IIRC) at CHB ,and I think he is probably still the best we've had.
Stiffy_18
4 Mar 2004, 23:15
Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
Regarding the ruckman situation. If you were picking an all time Crows team to play an all time Eagles team (eg: 22 Players each) you'd have to say Gardiner would make the best 22 Eagles of all time so problem solved. Very true and I think this might slip the scales in Eagles' favour.
Stiffy_18
4 Mar 2004, 23:16
Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
Caven made the team of the decade (IIRC) at CHB ,and I think he is probably still the best we've had. He sure did but the point I was trying to ake is that he was not in the same league as Jakovic and McIntosh. I think Jameson also made a team of the decade at FB.
Leaping Lindner
4 Mar 2004, 23:24
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
He sure did but the point I was trying to ake is that he was not in the same league as Jakovic and McIntosh. I think Jameson also made a team of the decade at FB.
I understood that mate, I just didn't articulate answer very well. Whilst Caven was no doubt a good,reliable and serviceable player (GF 98 thank you very much Mr Caven!), it's interesting that he is the best CHB we have had in 13 years. Jakovich would be the best CHB of the AFL era, so no comparison really.
no1bankteller
4 Mar 2004, 23:43
Firstly I do agree with Stiffy that this is a great thread and I hope that you do not mind me intruding on to your turf. :)
Secondly I too must say that I prefer the Eagles team as Matera, Mainwearing, Jakovich, Lewis and McIntosh are the best players I have seen play for WCE. I am also biased.
Having said that I do think that the Crows team mentioned does equal us in most departments and is better then us in ruck. Its a pity that Rehn was seriously injured and never reached his full potential.
As I find it difficult to split the two sides I will stick with the tried and truye argument and choose WCE, only because I am very biased towards them. In reality both sides are damn awesome.
Eagles, i think, would win. I may not be able to say that with much credibillity, because i really dont know that much about the crows teams of 97 and 98 but just looking at the eagles team they were pretty dominant in 91, 92, 94 and were up there in 90, 93, 95, 96 the eagles were team of the decade so i seem them as the better team
if this was best 22 vs. best 22 i think eagles wuld win ... just
Coasters match crows in Midfield, Beat by quite a bit in defence, and might just loose by a bit in forward although i dont actually know that much about the crows forwards
it might be harder to find but a best 18 vs best 18 or best 22 vs best 22 would be more interesting.
Would have to be the Eagles IMO
Flags are won by teams with strong spines and good midfields - see Brisbane.
3 quality KPP's in the Eagles list v 1 for the Crows tips it in their favour.
The mid-fields of both sides are first class.
I have to say the Eagles.
Stiffy_18
5 Mar 2004, 10:44
Originally posted by macca23
Would have to be the Eagles IMO Traitor:p
Flags are won by teams with strong spines and good midfields - see Brisbane. While it holds true in most cases, it is not necesarilly true. Did we have a strong spine in 97 and more so in 98?????? I think we had a servicable spine with one clear standout in Modra. What we had the luxury of is a couple of ruckman (Rehn especially) who played a loose man in defence role to perfection.
I have to say the Eagles. Once again, traitor:p
Originally posted by Black JuJu
Howdy folks, in light of the upcoming scratchie, hows abouts we compare our Top 10 lists, as discussed here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101688)
Mark Ricciuto
Andrew McLeod
Darren Jarman
Shaun Rehn
Ben Hart
Nigel Smart
Tony Modra
Tony McGuinness
Mark Bickley
Andrew Jarman
VS
Peter Matera
Glen Jakovich
Dean Kemp
Guy McKenna
Ben Cousins
John Worsfold
Chris Lewis
Ashley McIntosh
Peter Sumich
Chris Mainwaring
For a quick reference, that's
22 All Aussie Selections for the Crows vs 22 All Aussie/Team of the Year Selections for the Eagles.
13 Premiership Medallions for the Crows vs. 18 Premiership Medallions for the Eagles.
3 Crows Captains vs. 4 Eagles Captains
Best and Fairest -
14 Eagles vs. 8 Crows.
He does all the evidence for us :D
Well being an Eagles supporter its no surprise that Im picking the Eagles. We have an excellent spine with Jako, McIntosh and Sumich and our I think our midfield has the edge with Matera, Cuz, Kemp and Mainy.
The Crows have the better ruckman but thats only because we dont have a ruckmen listed. Had Gardy being listed, Id back Gardy against Rehn. It's hard though to just compare top 10's. Be easier if we did a best all time side but I think it would be a little pointless as the Eagles would be clearly the stronger.
Both Adelaide sides were hardly great sides when they won their respective premierships, take nothing away from them though, they won them and good on em but the Eagles premiership sides are still talked about as one of the best sides in the modern era. Then you throw in a few guys from today like Cousins, Phil Matera and Gardiner and I think the Eagles best 22 would easily beat the Crows best 22.
Re-reading that...I sounded patronising...didnt mean to be. Trying to be subjective :D
Leaping Lindner
6 Mar 2004, 13:29
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
..........
Once again, traitor:p
Don't be too harsh on Macca23 Stiffy. Me thinks that Maccas love of the blue and gold and Eagles may pre-date 1987! Also with all the debate over ruckmen I'm sure that Macca wanted to list Bob Morrell as a candidate.;)
Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
Don't be too harsh on Macca23 Stiffy. Me thinks that Maccas love of the blue and gold and Eagles may pre-date 1987! Also with all the debate over ruckmen I'm sure that Macca wanted to list Bob Morrell as a candidate.;)
Some people are perceptive - very perceptive!! ;)
You're right of course. It's a bit hard not to be when you've actually played in the colours. :)
The interesting thing about those lists is that the Eagles 10 is all from the one era. 18 premiership medals according to BJJ, so they were all pretty much there in the Eagles premiership years in 1992 and 1994.
The Crows players are a bit more spread out over our time in the AFL. Which is kind of ironic, because the Eagles have been in the competition longer, so you'd think it would be the other way around. I guess that's somewhat indicative of the way Cornes began with so many (too many?) ready made/mature age players in 1991.
Actually our ten were probably all there in 1996... post prodigal son Jarman returning but pre Blight clean out... but all at varying stages of their careers.
Anyway I think thats why the Eagles 10 looks so damn good because they were the best players in a champion side that made three grand finals in four years. The core of a side that was a dominant force for at least half a decade.
dyertribe
10 Mar 2004, 18:08
Originally posted by Stiffy_18
While it holds true in most cases, it is not necesarilly true. Did we have a strong spine in 97 and more so in 98?????? I think we had a servicable spine with one clear standout in Modra.
(Counting the majority of the season)
1997: Jameson - Caven - Ricciuto - Robran - Modra
In that particular year our spine wasn't just strong, but nigh-on great.
*Statistically we had the best defence in the league in 1997 and Caven was absolutely robbed by not being selected in the AA team at least once (was superb in 1998 too) - a rocksolid CHB who went forward, delivering into his forward 50 and kicked vital goals too. Servicable? Outstanding.
*Jameson was a solid fullback who didnt get a bag kicked on him all year.
*Ricciuto was well on track for the Brownlow before his groin injury in the latter part of the year, with his centreman's role then shared by the likes of McLeod, Koster, James, Jarman, Connell and Bickley.
*Robran was decent without being outstanding, creating more than he scored.
*Modra was on track for 100 before injuring his knee (that bloody bursar that he wouldn't rest over the Origin break) and limping in with 84 goals and the Coleman Medal.
Anyone care to give their assessment of our 1998 spine? I can't be arsed ;)