Ricky passes judgement

[Mog]

From CricInfo...

Ponting points finger at 'selfish' Lara
April 19, 2004

A week on from Brian Lara's epic quadruple-century against England in Antigua, and the backlash has begun Down Under. None other than Australia's captain, Ricky Ponting, is leading a chorus of players and commentators who believe that Lara's innings was self-centred, and has done the game more harm than good.

"It's hard to imagine an Australian player doing it," Ponting told AAP, notwithstanding the fact that Matthew Hayden came within 20 runs of doing exactly that against Zimbabwe last October. "It's generally not the way we play our cricket. Their whole first innings might have been geared around one individual performance and they could have let a Test match slip because of it. They ran out of time in the game - that's not the way the Australian team plays."

Nevertheless, Ponting conceded that Hayden's 380 at Perth did involve an exception to the team rule, as he was allowed to carry on batting with the record in sight. "It was a very rare thing, for Matty to be able to bat for as long as he did and go on and make that big score," said Ponting. "He was given the opportunity to go on and break Brian's record and he did that. He was going to be given another half an hour, or 20 minutes, to try to get to 400 but unfortunately he got out."

Ponting is one of a clutch of batsmen with the ability to overhaul Lara's new record, although he was adamant that the team always comes first where Australian cricket is concerned. "Everyone will be chasing it, and it would be nice to be the world-record holder," he admitted, "but as we've seen, it doesn't necessarily win you a Test match, which is what we're all about." Mind you, if Australia's Test series goes ahead against the weakened Zimbabweans next month, victory will be a foregone conclusion even before any thoughts turn to the record-books.

Ponting's sentiments have struck a chord with the former England captain and leading commentator, Tony Greig. "I'm certainly not raving about the innings," he told the Sydney Morning Herald. "I have to praise it for the sheer fact that he stayed in for so long but it wasn't an innings that you could be in awe of. It was clear he had the record in mind and was just going to keep on grinding it out until he got there. As far as I'm concerned that is not a good way to play the game, especially when you're the captain. It shows that Brian Lara is not a very good captain."

"It gives cricket fans there the chance to be euphoric for a while," added the ABC commentator, Jim Maxwell, "but there are big problems in cricket over there. There's a lack of discipline, a lack of talent and the wrong people are in charge. Lara has been an inconsistent performer as leader. He's 34 and this innings will give him more time, that's all. It's a shame because there are a lot of people over there who love cricket. But it's fallen apart."

But Derrick Nicholas, the chief operations manager of the West Indies Cricket Board, had quite the opposite view. "It's quite extraordinary," he said. "I was in Antigua when he broke the record. The tributes were coming in from all the [Caribbean] heads of government; the feeling around the whole Caribbean has been fantastic. We believe Brian's innings will renew interest from children in cricket."

[Adrian Shelton]

Of course the Windies had enough time to win it, the Poms just did quite well to rack up 6-400 odd the last day and a half to save it. Draws are still going to happen in test cricket(even to Australia) and teams shouldn't be getting knocked just because they don't 'play' like Australia. Attack at all costs cricket isn't for everyone, plus sometimes people just have to be reminded who's the biggest Rooster in the chook run, which Brian well and truly has done.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure Ponting is deliberately being all that critical of Lara. He's just giving honest answers.

As for Tony Greig. What's his problem?

[luthor]

Lara had to declare the Windies innings closed at some point of that test.

Remarkable co-incidence that he considered the optimal time to declare was when he, himself reached 400 no.

"Well look at that....we just got to 5 for 76 something.......just the lead we needed to declare.....and well ....gee fantastic.......I just happen to have got to 400 myself......what amazing synchroicity"

My view is that it's poor form for a test cricket captain to declare at the very moment he achieves a personal goal. Captains of sporting teams are supposed to make decisions based on team objectives and not on reaching personal milestones.

Thumbs down to Lara on this one IMO.

[Duffman95]

Originally posted by luthor
Lara had to declare the Windies innings closed at some point of that test.

Remarkable co-incidence that he considered the optimal time to declare was when he, himself reached 400 no.

"Well look at that....we just got to 5 for 76 something.......just the lead we needed to declare.....and well ....gee fantastic.......I just happen to have got to 400 myself......what amazing synchroicity"

My view is that it's poor form for a test cricket captain to declare at the very moment he achieves a personal goal. Captains of sporting teams are supposed to make decisions based on team objectives and not on reaching personal milestones.

Thumbs down to Lara on this one IMO. Is ground that high nice and lonely?

[Wicked Lester]

So if by chance Zimbabwe had salvaged a draw (thourgh good play or weather) when Hayden had made his 380, would Steve Waugh and Hayden have been guilty of selfishness?

After all, from memory, bad weather was forecast. Waugh has bragged that he went to Hayden overnight - when he was on about 180 - and they talked about 'going for the record'.

Arrogance? selfishness? Personally I can't see it being that much different to Lara.

[dr nick]

Originally posted by luthor
Lara had to declare the Windies innings closed at some point of that test.

Remarkable co-incidence that he considered the optimal time to declare was when he, himself reached 400 no.


a huge percentage of declarations occur when milestones are reached. Someone's 100, 150, etc

[The Candy Man]

If I were Brian Lara, all I'd say is "Ricky, you captain your way and I'll captain mine".

I'm a big Ponting fan but I really don't understand why he needed to comment on this.

[Jim Boy]

What a load of bollocks. Well before he broke the record, they said they were going to try and make 750. And it's unlikely that the West Indies would have won the match if they declared any earlier. England had almost caught up to the Windies total at the match end, so even if they had started bowling earlier and bowled England out, they would have had to bat again and the match would still have been a draw. So if Lara had of declared on 350 and the match petered out to a draw or worse, everybody would be slagging him off even more.

You also have to remember that England utterly humiliated the Windies before this match. Lara has brought some pride and respectability back to the team. Utter hypocrisy by ponting to slag Lara when he was encouraging Hayden to do the same thing.

[scmods]

Originally posted by Wicked Lester
So if by chance Zimbabwe had salvaged a draw (thourgh good play or weather) when Hayden had made his 380, would Steve Waugh and Hayden have been guilty of selfishness?
The biggest difference was that Hayden's innings was much faster - it was done by tea on day two, rather than into day three like Lara.
After all, from memory, bad weather was forecast. The game was wrapped up in the first session of day five, and there was rain about. In fact there was even a short rain delay before the final wicket was taken.

Had the weather forced a draw, there would no doubt be criticism. But really I don't think it would have made a difference. Tea on day two would have been a likely declaration point anyway (the declaration came on the fall of Hayden's wicket in the first over after tea), so the difference by going on was only about fifteen minutes.

[Brett Li]

Originally posted by The Candy Man
If I were Brian Lara, all I'd say is "Ricky, you captain your way and I'll captain mine".

I'm a big Ponting fan but I really don't understand why he needed to comment on this.

"Ricky, when you get to 385*, let's see what you do"

[Mog]

Originally posted by The Candy Man
I'm a big Ponting fan but I really don't understand why he needed to comment on this.

That's the joy of being Australian captain; you have to stick your opinion in regardless of whether it's needed.

[GhostofJimJess]

Originally posted by scmods
The biggest difference was that Hayden's innings was much faster - it was done by tea on day two, rather than into day three like Lara.

There were a number of other major differences between the two innings.

Firstly, Matthew Hayden was dismissed for 380. And Steve Waugh made no secret of the fact that he would have been prepared to allow Hayden to bat on until at least 400 if not for that dismissal. That makes the notion that "it was done by tea on day two" somewhat immaterial.

Secondly, the West Indies were looking down the barrel of a 0-4 whitewash, so understandably they were at a very low ebb, particularly given the series was at home. Often a victory might come disguised in the form, such as a moral victory, and avoiding a whitewash seems a pretty fair illustration of this.

Thirdly, the West Indies had been dismissed for scores of 47 and 94 in the two previous tests. Would they really be that keen on chasing anything over 100 in the final couple of sessions of this match. Doubtful.

Fourthly, the England batting lineup was far superior to that of the Zimbos, and given that the lowly West Indian batting lineup could manage over 700, this suggested that it was probably quite a batsman-friendly track. Lara was entitled to suppose that the Poms could rack up 750-ish with 20 wickets with which to play.

Fifthly, the Aussie bowling line-up is far superior to that of the West Indies, and yet we found it necessary to rack up 735 … against the bloody Zimbo's who have never beaten us.!!

Finally, Ponting's words might return to haunt him sometime down the track. They appear to be quite hypocritical, and like the captain before him, he seems unable to pay credit to opposition teams where it's due, preferring instead to belittle these performances. (Steve Waugh was a master at this)

Poor form, Punter.

[sherb]

Well said Ghost.

Magnificent innings by Lara, unfortunately the achievement has been sidetracked in some quarters because the WI did not win the game. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I thought the WI still gave themselves a great chance of winning, this was borne out when they had England 5-100 odd in reply. It took some great batting by Flintoff and then Trescothick/Vaughan in the second innings to save the day.

I'm a bit disappointed with what Ponting said, I wish he had just given credit where credit is due and left it at that. As for Tony Greig's comments, well I did what I have done for the past 25 years - ignore them:D .

[the fly]

It's like when Border declared the innings closed early on the 3rd day at Headingly in 1993 on reaching his double century.

[Zeke]

I also thought it was poor form for Punter to comment for any other reason than congratulating Lara.

[scmods]

Originally posted by GhostofJimJess
There were a number of other major differences between the two innings.

Firstly, Matthew Hayden was dismissed for 380. And Steve Waugh made no secret of the fact that he would have been prepared to allow Hayden to bat on until at least 400 if not for that dismissal. That makes the notion that "it was done by tea on day two" somewhat immaterial.
I disagree. Had Hayden been on 300* or 270* or whatever at tea on day two, I think it likely that the declaration would have occurred. But given that he was that close to an historic score and it was still that early in the match, it wasn't unreasonable to give him another twenty minutes or so after the break.

I don't think you'd see the current Australian lineup do the same thing at tea on the third day, simply for the reason that they'd never need to bat that long to make the runs. The idea of running out of time just doesn't happen much in Australian games these days, because they score so fast. The only thing that can intervene is the weather.

Secondly, the West Indies were looking down the barrel of a 0-4 whitewash...

Thirdly, the West Indies had been dismissed for scores of 47 and 94 in the two previous tests...

Fourthly, the England batting lineup was far superior to that of the Zimbos...

Fifthly, the Aussie bowling line-up is far superior to that of the West Indies...
Agree with all those.

Finally, Ponting's words might return to haunt him sometime down the track.
We also need to remember that the media do their best to create a story here. Ponting didn't call a special press conference just to bag Lara. As Australian captain, he was bound to be approached for an opinion. And with too many praising tributes to print already, the questions no doubt included things along the line of "do you tihnk he was selfish not to declare", etc. Then the story is presented in such a way that it's just Ponting criticising Lara.

Of course Ponting still had to provide the quotes he did, and I would have preferred he just stuck to congratulating Lara. But if he's asked for his opinion, why can't he give it? After all, we all get just as sick of listening to sports personalities giving boring, safe answers to these questions.

For my own 2c worth, I support Lara's decision to go on. Firstly for historical reasons - he probably won't ever get that opportunity again - combined with the reasons outlined above. Perhaps if the series was at 1-1 it might be a different story.