View Full Version : Alternate guernsey designs
BigStork
21 Jun 2001, 23:03
There is a lot of talk at the moment about alternate guernsey designs to avoid clashes when playing teams with similar colours. Our club has publicly stated that it will not alter its guernsey, but perhaps they may be forced too! While I love the black with red sash design, I could possibly be forced to accept a red guernsey with a black sash maybe once or twice a year. But any further fiddling with the jumper is just not on. Just look at what the Eagles have done to their jumper - it is a mess! And while their jumper was nothing to write home about anyway, it is an absolute disaster now. Let's hope that the marketing boys at Essendon just keep their 'creative and artistic' talents under control if we are forced to come up with an alternate guernsey.
What do you mob think?
Black with red sash forever for me!:D
When we are the away team against Melbourne, I would like to see the Dees wear their usual garb, but replace the red socks with blue (like they do when they play Sydney). That means Melbourne would have their normal jumper, blue shorts and blue socks.
We would wear white shorts as the away team, with a predominately red jumper with perhpas two thin black sashes. The back could be all red with a black number. This keeps the red and black and differentiates between the two clubs.
Against St.Kilda, they should wear their traditional jumper (with the three stripes on the front and the all-black back.) with black shorts, of course. We would wear white shorts with the red jumper I talked about above.
When St.Kilda ae the away team against us, they should wear their guernsey with the cross on the front, but rearrange the colours so that their is lots of white, with little bits of red and black. Their style can stay the same, but the rearrangement of colours must change. Obviosuly we would wear our normal black with the red sash with black shorts if it was our home game, so they would have to come up with a "lighter" jumper of mainly white, with bits of black and red.
gPhonque
22 Jun 2001, 12:43
Funny how there was no call for alternate guernseys in the days of playing in the mud pit at Moorabbin, or Windy Hill etc etc etc.
Yet now that we play on grounds that rarely get muddy, everyone demands new guernseys. :confused:
Money money money.........
It's nice to see that Essendon don't want to change though. And the Essendon Vs Melbourne guernsey clash is the worst IMO.
It would be nice to actually see 2 teams play in their original jumpers occasionally too.
And what the f~ck is that WCE jumper. I've said it before and i'll say it again: it looks like somebody spewed on the front of it. Maybe it was Ken Judge......
I tell you what, i'd find it hard to kick to somebody wearing a spew coloured jumper too. Explains the Eagles form.
I hope to god Essendon don't end up with a red jumper; doesn't anybody here remember the dreaded red shorts..........? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by gPhonque
I hope to god Essendon don't end up with a red jumper; doesn't anybody here remember the dreaded red shorts..........? :rolleyes:
*Shudder*, yep. Another brilliant "marketing" initiative. NOT!:eek: :p :eek:
Stealth bomber
23 Jun 2001, 13:00
I think a white number panel, a la Port Adelaide, might be a viable solution
for a second jumper. Perhaps all-black socks would be another option (against
predominantly red teams like Sydney, for example), even though I have come to
love the red and black hoops.
I've been working on some designs actually; I might post a few for everyone's
amusement.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Funny how there was no call for alternate guernseys in the days of playing in the mud pit at Moorabbin, or Windy Hill etc etc etc.
Yet now that we play on grounds that rarely get muddy, everyone demands new guernseys. :confused:
Money money money.........
I hope to god Essendon don't end up with a red jumper; doesn't anybody here remember the dreaded red shorts..........? :rolleyes:
Exactly....it's got nothin' to do with teams bein' "more identifiable". Just another money making revenue for Wayne Jackson and co. gPhonque is right, the red shorts were bad enough, a predominately red guenrnsey would look shocking.
I've said it before....if we were to change our guernsey design/colors, i would not attend those game/s as my own form of protest.
Leave the jumper alone!! :mad:
where's wally?
Originally posted by gPhonque
And what the f~ck is that WCE jumper. I've said it before and i'll say it again: it looks like somebody spewed on the front of it. Maybe it was Ken Judge......
I tell you what, i'd find it hard to kick to somebody wearing a spew coloured jumper too. Explains the Eagles form.
:D haha!
Yeah, they look shocking. Anyone else amused by the fact that West Coast have had about 27 different guernseys in their 15 year existence? I think you summed it up perfectly gPnoque....money money money.
where's wally?
Originally posted by Wally
if we were to change our guernsey design/colors, i would not attend those game/s as my own form of protest.
Yeah sure :rolleyes:
walshy1993
24 Jun 2001, 03:00
Originally posted by gPhonque
And what the f~ck is that WCE jumper. I've said it before and i'll say it again: it looks like somebody spewed on the front of it. Maybe it was Ken Judge......
the west coast jumper looks pretty good, although it isnt a west coast jumper
i had a bit to do with a club preseason the wears the current west coast jumper, although they have replaced the eagle with there own logo
back onto the subject
essendon is just about the only club in the comp not to change their jumper, lets keep that tradition going
Originally posted by Dan25
Yeah sure :rolleyes:
Sorry to have the temerity to disagree with you but,
How the f*ck would you know?? Far as i'm concerned we are red and black, i will not watch an Essendon team that's not wearing those colors. End of story.
where's wally?
Originally posted by Wally
Far as i'm concerned we are red and black, i will not watch an Essendon team that's not wearing those colors. End of story.
Red with Black sash in particular!
Originally posted by Wally
Sorry to have the temerity to disagree with you but,
How the f*ck would you know?? Far as i'm concerned we are red and black, i will not watch an Essendon team that's not wearing those colors. End of story.
Rubbish.
From your posts, I can tell you are a mad Bombers fan. I don't believe for one second that you would NOT attend a game. Liverpoool came out in a yellow strip for the FA Cup final against Arsenal (both clubs are traditionally red). My god, the Liverpool fans must have been aghast :rolleyes:
Anyway, we won't come out in anything other than red and black. It will simply the same colours with MORE red thah black, for two games a year. Big bloody deal.
If you don't want to support the club, then you are not wanted. I don't believe that you would do this, and I think you WOULD attend the games. In fact I am sure you would.
Originally posted by Dan25
Rubbish.
Pretty much sums up your whole post Dan. You have no right to presume to tell other people what their opinion should be or what sort of supporter they are. If we can do without supporters of any sort it's ones like you who will not accept anyone else's opinion and rubbish them when they decide to have the courage of their convictions rather than Wally.
I see you still don't understand that the English Premier League and FA cup competitions are different sports and another country with their own traditions either. I guess one day you'll learn.
Liverpool fans would not have been aghast becuase they have worn alternate strips for many many years now. We haven't, so that comparison is specious.
And just whilst we're on the "they do it on soccer so we should too" theme, guess what Celtic did after playing in an alternate strip during the scottish FA cup final before they accepted the trophy? You got it, changed back into their TRADITIONAL one. I wonder why that was? Couldn't have been that they didn't believe the alternate colors were the REAL Celtic could it? Noooo....
My point is, Dave, that I don't believe Wally for a second. I would have to physically see him sitting in his lounge chair while we are playing to believe he wouldn;t go to a game because - of all things - the design of our jumper.
Maybe I am too optimistic. Maybe I have too much faith in the human race to see common-sense. Maybe I am of the belief that people can get over-emotional about trivial thngs, and make ridiculous claims that they wouldn't really do.
For starters, the AFL will regulate the guernsey designs, NOT the clubs. The AFL will decree that we must change our guernsey. Why would Wally boycott match, if the AFL made the decision? It's not Essendon's fault, for God's sake!
Also, Wally said that if we change our design, or colours he would boycott the match. :rolleyes: So, if we keep the red and black colours (and we will), but we incorporate more red than black for two games a year to avoid colour clashes, he reckons he will boycoot matches. That is not getting behind the club. W don't need fans who will boycott the club. We need fans who stick by THE CLUB
So, in 2002, if Melbourne finish on top of the ladder, and they wear their normal jumper for the Grand Final, and they play us (who finish 3rd) and we wear a mainly red jumper with a bit of black, he wil be sitting at home watching as the Bombers stoll away with their 18th flag.
It's his life. He can do that if he wants :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Dan25
For starters, the AFL will regulate the guernsey designs, NOT the clubs. The AFL will decree that we must change our guernsey. Why would Wally boycott match, if the AFL made the decision? It's not Essendon's fault, for God's sake!
The only way to make the AFL see that's it's decisions are unpopular is to not attend matches or watch them on tv as the only thing they care about is attendance and ratings as they determine how much money they make.
If, all of a sudden, their research showed that the avg attendance at a teams games where they'd forced that club to wear an alternate guernsey (and ONLY those games) fell by say a theoretical 5000 people then perhaps they would realise that their decision was unpopular. Yes it hurts the club, but it's the only thing the AFL listens too.
And I stick by my statement that we do need supporters like Wally because integrity and identity are more important than money will ever be.
Nice to see you've ignored my comments on soccer too. I take it from that that you agree with them.
Originally posted by Dave
Pretty much sums up your whole post Dan. You have no right to presume to tell other people what their opinion should be or what sort of supporter they are. If we can do without supporters of any sort it's ones like you who will not accept anyone else's opinion and rubbish them when they decide to have the courage of their convictions rather than Wally.
Thanx Dave,
Daniel,
Don't EVER question my loyalty to my club, but i really don't give a flying f*ck whether you think i'm a 'worthy' supporter or not.
For decades we played Melbourne and St.Kilda on bog heaps in p!ssing rain. These days we play under a closed roof, dry grounds and people can't tell the difference? Turn it up Dan.
Maybe, i'm old fashioned and "over emotional" about such a "trivial thing" i don't care. I stick by my opinion that alternative guernseys are nothing more than another cynical money-making exercise for the AFL.
As for playing Melbourne in a GF in an alternative strip. Well you wouldn't know if i was "physically sitting in my lounge chair" would you? Because no doubt you'd be at the 'G' supporting the club, seeing that you're the better and more wanted supporter than me.
where's wally?
A fiery discussion!!
I do not believe the design of the jumpers should be altered, however this is not based on any arguement in regard to tradition. I don't think that it is necessary. I can't say that I have ever been confused by so-called "clashes". Further, if other teams change their jumpers, the "need" for Essendon to change theirs will no longer exist because the clash will no longer exist.
I do not subscribe to the theory that Essendon will be a different club if they change their jumper. Taken to its logical extent, this would mean that club changed when it altered its emblem 4 years ago. Tradition can include many things, whilst the jumper is an important element it is not the sole or defining one. In fact tradition is such an ill-defined concept, that we should use the legal concept of a club; at least this one is straight foward hey Dan:D:D:D.
Attending games is unlikely to hurt the AFL. In fact it is more likely to hurt the club. In my opinion (and it is only my opinion) the best way to voice your displeasure over such a decision, would be to refuse to buy the jumper.
Cheers.
Wally, no worries. Daniel has less tolerance for those who don't share his opinion than the people he condemns as "homophobes" on the general board. The only way to make the AFL feel pain is to vote with your feet and hurt 'em in the hip pocket.
James, we've played in the same jumper for our entire 125 year competitive history (VFL/VFL/AFL), something no other club in the competition can say. That's slightly more significant to me than the club emblem or nickname (or theme song even) given they have changed more than once. Not a bad idea on how to protest either, but have you tried telling a child that they can't have their teams jumper because of what you believe in, particularly given their ability to comperehend the rationale we've been discussing? Good Luck!
Originally posted by Wally
Daniel, Don't EVER question my loyalty to my club, but i really don't give a flying f*ck whether you think i'm a 'worthy' supporter or not.
I'm questioning your support, because you're the one that said you would not go to games if we changed the design of our jumper. You wrote the words, so you live with the repurcussions.
Originally posted by Wally
For decades we played Melbourne and St.Kilda on bog heaps in p!ssing rain. These days we play under a closed roof, dry grounds and people can't tell the difference? Turn it up Dan.
Why do I need to answer this? Obviously we can tell who is who, if we look closely, but there is still a problem with the colour clashes. Melbourne, like us, is a big mixture of dark and red. The fact that it hasn't been discussed for the first 90 years does mean that it isn't a problem now.
Originally posted by Wally
Maybe, i'm old fashioned and "over emotional" about such a "trivial thing" i don't care. I stick by my opinion that alternative guernseys are nothing more than another cynical money-making exercise for the AFL.
They are NOT solely a money making exercsie. The primary reason for clubs desiging new jumpers for 2 games a year is to differentiate those clubs from other teams who have similar jumpers. Nowobviously, clubs would be able to sell those new jumpers too. A club would be stupid not to take advantage of the marketing opportunity. But the money making is a "bonus." That's right it is a BONUS!! The main reason the AFL want us to have a new jumper is to differentiate between the teams. The fact that we would sell the new jumpers is a bonus. The clubs will be the beneficiaries anyway, so why are you so critical?
Originally posted by Wally
As for playing Melbourne in a GF in an alternative strip. Well you wouldn't know if i was "physically sitting in my lounge chair" would you? Because no doubt you'd be at the 'G' supporting the club, seeing that you're the better and more wanted supporter than me.
Obviously :rolleyes:
Can you honesty tell me that if we wore red (with a bit of black) in the Grand Final against Melbourne, that you wouldn't go to the game?
Originally posted by Dave
Wally, no worries. Daniel has less tolerance for those who don't share his opinion than the people he condemns as "homophobes" on the general board.
I didn't condemn anyone. I simply said that there were a lot of homophobes who would have voted Johnnie of of BigBrother. i also said there were a lot of peope, who didn't understand that he was a caring and compassionate person. My opinion is that the general public misunderstood him.
Originally posted by Dave
..we've played in the same jumper for our entire 125 year competitive history (VFL/VFL/AFL), something no other club in the competition can say.
That's not true, We used to wear red and and black stripes in the VFA for two years.
We wwill still be in red and balck anyway. The "new" jumper to avoid clashing with Melbourne will just incorporate more red than black. it s not a money making exercise. Obviosuly, clubs will sell the new jumpers to make money as a BONUS.
It might interest you to know that Essendon sell their training jumpers. At Myer you can buy our red training jumper with the thin black stripes. The club has been making money off of these alternate designs for years now.
If we were to have a new jumper, obviously the club would make money out of it, but that would be a BONUS to the main function of providing an alternate strip to avoid a clour clash with teams like Melbourne and St.Kilda. It is NOT primarily a money making exercise.
Dave,
What if a family that has lived in the same house for fifty years, decides one day to move. This would involve the ending of a tradition. Are they a different family???
I am not an iconoclast and am not opposed to traditions. I am merely making disinterested criticisims of your opinion.
Pessimistic
25 Jun 2001, 17:23
Those traditionalists should have seen 'the game' on friday night.
They had some footage of Jacko from the seventies (I think)
Anyway melbourne had the 'lighter' shade of blue with shirt tucked in white shorts (tight ones) and essendon had the red shorts on. The socks didn't clash either.
There was no problem differentiation even in the mud some of you harp on about.
Why can't they do that again ? Why would essendon need a 'vote' to take minor changes ?
Originally posted by James2
Dave,
What if a family that has lived in the same house for fifty years, decides one day to move. This would involve the ending of a tradition.
What of it? That's not what we're discussing is it? Have they lived there for 125 years? ;)
Are they a different family???
No they aren't. How's that the same as changing our jumper after 125 years?
I am not an iconoclast and am not opposed to traditions. I am merely making disinterested criticisims of your opinion.
No worries, but don't expect me to change my mind.
Originally posted by Dan25
Can you honesty tell me that if we wore red (with a bit of black) in the Grand Final against Melbourne, that you wouldn't go to the game?
I already have and you chose and not to believe me and rubbish my opinions. Leave the jumper alone! :mad:
where's wally?
Originally posted by Pessimistic
Those traditionalists should have seen 'the game' on friday night.
I did.
They had some footage of Jacko from the seventies (I think)
What a scream. I wonder what Kelvin was thinking?
Anyway melbourne had the 'lighter' shade of blue with shirt tucked in white shorts (tight ones) and essendon had the red shorts on. The socks didn't clash either.
I know. Yuurgggh, bloody red shorts. Spew!
There was no problem differentiation even in the mud some of you harp on about.
That's the very point we've been making. If you could tell the difference then, what's the problem now?
Why can't they do that again ?
Because everyone's eyes would bleed! Red shorts? Yuck!
Why would essendon need a 'vote' to take minor changes ?
The club constitution maybe?
Ok lets get things into perspective.
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/Wally_Web/img-pl/img-llydblck.jpg
That looks hideous.
Keep the current jumper, the AFL just wants to suck more money out of fans.
Originally posted by Dan25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dave
..we've played in the same jumper for our entire 125 year competitive history (VFL/VFL/AFL), something no other club in the competition can say.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not true, We used to wear red and and black stripes in the VFA for two years.
Essendon changed to the current jumper design in 1875. The VFA was formed in 1877. We have played in the same jumper for our entire 125 year competitive history. It is true.
We wwill still be in red and balck anyway. The "new" jumper to avoid clashing with Melbourne
It's not to avoid jumper clashes, it's to satisfy the AFL's marketing gurus and make more money. The AFL simply use the so-called clashes so that they can label any opponents to the move reactionary and against the best interests of the game. It IS primarily a money making exercise, else why insist Essendon design a new Ansett Cup jumper as well? Can you answer that? If it isn't about money, why do we need a new Ansett Cup jumper?
It's interesting that you label as lemmings those that believe the winner of the Grand Final to be the best team of the year because the "AFL tell them to" yet you blindly follow their lead on this issue.
The fact that it hasn't been discussed for the first 90 years does mean that it isn't a problem now.
So what has changed? Did people 90 years ago have better eyesight or were they too stupid to notice the so called clashs? I have asked this time and again without answer. What has changed? Why is it such a burning issue NOW?
Originally posted by Dave
I have asked this time and again without answer. What has changed? Why is it such a burning issue NOW?
Here's the answer Dave
$
m29, SPOT ON. Perhaps that's why none of the establishment mob have been able to provide an answer.
Originally posted by M29
Here's the answer Dave
$
Seems the only one around here who doesn't realise that is Dan.
where's wally?
Have a good look at M29's picture Dan. Tell us what you think of our 'alternate' strip.
where's wally?
Okay. The cynical view seems to be that these alternate designs are solely a money making exercise. I totally disgree, and with very good reason.
A.) Essendon already sell their training jumper designs, and have done for years. We have been cashing in on these alternate jumpers for years now.
B.) At last count, Essendon has 143 different clothing items that can be bought. These include t-shirts, jumpers, jackets etc. There are about 20 different tyes of T-shirt designs, about a dozen jumper designs, about a dozen more jackets and coat designs. The club also sells three or four different playing tops. You can buy the traditional jumper, or you can buy the red training jumper. You can also buy the funny guernsey they wear when they come out for their warm up. (that's the one with the curvvy red sash that seems to get smaller and smaller)
Now, if the AFL force Essendon to come up with an alternate jumper with more red than black to be worn for two games a year, it will simply mean that we will have 144 clothing items to sell, instead of 143. BIG DEAL!!!
The AFL want us to come up with a design that will not clash with Melbourne, St.Kilda and possibly Richmond. The fact that we will be able to sell it as our 144th different item, will be a BONUS. The primary reaosn we need to change is to a avoid clashing with Melbourne and St.Kilda. It's not a money issue.
How could it solely be a money issue? We already sell dozens and dozens of different clothing lines anyway. Why would one more make any huge difference?
We would NOT wear it for every away game. We would only wear it for two away games a year. Why would the AFL want us to wear it eleven times? What would they gain, by making us wear it more than twice? The jumper will still be in existence to be sold in shops, whether we wear it twice, or 11 times, so what would the AFL gain financially by making us wear it more than twice?
They wouldn't gain anything. We would get the same financial spin-offs from jumper sales, if we wear it twice or eleven times.
The important thing is, that we produce a jumper that doesn't clash with the problem teams like the disaster against St.Kilda 2 weeks ago. That is the main function of the new jumper designs. The fact that we will be able to add it to the other 143 items of clothing that we sell will be a bonus - an added extra. It's a bonus we would be stupid not to take advantage of.
Originally posted by Dan25
Okay. The cynical view seems to be that these alternate designs are solely a money making exercise.
Me?...cynical??....never. I don't care how you dress (pardon the pun) it up, the AFL has been bullsh!tting the punters for years.
You seriously believe it has nothing to do with money? Sorry, i can't subscribe to that theory. Money Dan, it's all about money.
Aah well, 'spose i AM cynical. Too f*ckin' bad. You haven't told us what you think of M29's alternative design btw.
where's wally?
Pessimistic
26 Jun 2001, 08:40
Originally posted by Dave
difference then, what's the problem now?
Because everyone's eyes would bleed! Red shorts? Yuck!
The club constitution maybe?
What I'm saying is
1. Essendon Melbourne is currently the worst clash of colours
2. It wasn't always like that (they used to tuck jumpers in white shorte, wear long socks have a white number patch etc etc)
3. They didn't need a vote to change items (except the 'beloved' jumper of course) so they shouldn't need to now.
4. They should make cahnges to the strip overall to avoid a clash - no need to change the jumper itself.
5. some teams (eg Hawthorn) have no need whatsoever to change jumpers - I'm not sure what hawthorn could adopt as an alternate strip - navy blue perhaps ?
So keep you jumper but don't harp on about 100 years of tradition etc because the strips of the clubs in the early part were quite different from now and easily distiguishable.
Originally posted by Pessimistic
3. They didn't need a vote to change items (except the 'beloved' jumper of course) so they shouldn't need to now.
I think you'll find the club constitution has been changed since then. I think you'll also find that no one at Essendon wants to go back to red shorts. Yurrg.
4. They should make cahnges to the strip overall to avoid a clash - no need to change the jumper itself.
I don't believe the so called clashes are bad enough to warrant any change. They are a marketing ploy and nothing more.
So keep you jumper but don't harp on about 100 years of tradition etc because the strips of the clubs in the early part were quite different from now and easily distiguishable.
The basic design of our jumper is the same as it was 125 years ago Pess, so if I wish to "harp on" about tradition I will. There's also no bloody way on god's green earth I'm going back to red shorts, which were simply another marketing idea that was introduced with the advent of color tv.
Melbourne's original jumpers werer also Navy blue IIRC. The jumper on the game the other night was also introduced for color tv from what I recall.
Originally posted by Dan25
Okay. The cynical view seems to be that these alternate designs are solely a money making exercise. I totally disgree, and with very good reason.
A.) Essendon already sell their training jumper designs, and have done for years. We have been cashing in on these alternate jumpers for years now.
So what? This is a League move. THEY are the ones who will make the money out of this. They are the ones who have the merchandising contracts with Kmart et al where a majority of this merchandise will be sold. The fact that Essendon sell training gear etc is irrelevant, particularly as the CLUB IS AGAINST ANY CHANGE TO THE JUMPER. There are some things that are sacred Dan, in much the same as the ACB will not allow the Baggy Green Cap to be mass reproduced. Some things in life are more important than money Daniel.
And you still haven't answered my question wrt the Ansett Cup jumper. If it ISN'T about money, WHY do we need one of those as well?
Or my question about WHAT has changed to make clashes such an issue now.
What's the matter, can't answer them?
The important thing is, that we produce a jumper that doesn't clash with the problem teams like the disaster against St.Kilda 2 weeks ago.
What F*CKING disaster?????? To hear you speak you'd think the players spent all night turning the ball over to the other side and that no-one could tell who was who. My mum's over 60, wears glasses, and even she had no trouble telling who was who sitting in the top bloody deck!!! For crying out loud, you lose any credibility you had when you make outlandish claims like this Daniel.
The IMPORTANT thing is that we stand up to the AFL's marketing guru's, who it must be said have come up with soooo many brilliant ideas over the years (remember the batmobile anyone? Or the Cazaly? Greeeaaaattt ideas. Not.) and not let yet another tradition of our game get pissed away in the pursuit of the allmighty dollar.
Don't waste your time with Daniel Dave. No point debating with him, as he probably come up with another lot of counter-arguements without actually 'reading' your post.
I've already aired my opinion, and that is to keep out current jumper. In a climate where everything is changing or has been mooted for change, the jumper must be the one constant!
Players who represent the Essendon Football Club play for the jumper. A jumper that dates back to the dawn of our club. A jumper worn by the great Coleman, Reynolds, Hutchinson etc. The EFC jumper, is one that 'must not' be messed with. You mess with the jumper, you mess the identity of the EFC. And don't tell Dan that is doesn't matter about the jumper, it's still the EFC. The jumper is the identifying feature of any club, not only ours. Yes..the merchandising dollar is there..but i assure you...McMahon would be loath to put our jumper into question (and endorse it). McMahon would lose his job. The members would not vote for such a change, and if McMahon were to support it, his head would be on the chopping block.
Don't mess with tradition. We are the only remaining club not to mess with jumper, and it's going to stay that way. It's all about the money for the AFL. Money that wont go back to our club (through its sales through Kmart etc)...but to the AFL.
Stuff that for a joke! :mad:
Pessimistic
26 Jun 2001, 12:08
Its marketing that has made the current jumpers so alike - Black or navy blue is a very popular clothing colour in melbourne (and elsewhere) Note how Eagles, Geelong and Melbourne have more navy in recent Jumpers. Note how Collingwoods is now more black than white.
Clubs like hawthorn who's colurs aren't fashinabel at the moment have dark blue merchandise (I'm not sure how many seperate items they have dan). If this were to continue all teams would be in Black or Dark Blue. Of course some of you would still be able to tell the difference.
You locked onto red shorts but thats just a furphy. If players today all tucked their (dark) jumpers in whe wearing white shorts, there was a clear contrast between the socks etc there would be no need for all this.
Last years GF was a debacle. Us freeloaders, who were probably sloshed anyway ended up with eyestrain with the colour clash. Only minor changes not including the jumper would have made it much easier. There would have been no need for constitutional change at essendon.
And I see no reason why hawthorn shoud change when the away team. there is no clash except with WCE and their jersey is hardly a traditional one. I agree with you on that one
gPhonque
26 Jun 2001, 13:27
originally posted by who other than....DAN25
B.) At last count, Essendon has 143 different clothing items that can be bought.
And have they run around on the ground for the past 125 years wearing all 143 of those items?
Another stupid comparison. WHO GIVES A SH!T how many clothing items they sell!?!?!? WHO F~CKING CARES!!! What does that have to do with anything? You can probably buy red & black "Bomber condoms". Would you then be saying they should play in them?
And to have the nerve to say that Wally isn't wanted because he said he won't turn up to Essendon games if they're not in the 'real' jumper is a joke, especially considering it's come from somebody who seems hell bent on destroying every last little bit of club & league tradition we have left. (finals, jumpers.........what's next on your list Jacko? Sorry, i mean Dan?)
I'd take Wally as a fellow supporter over you anyday.
:p
Originally posted by Pessimistic
You locked onto red shorts but thats just a furphy.
Pess, you raised the red shorts issue, not sure what you mean by this. :confused:
If players today all tucked their (dark) jumpers in whe wearing white shorts, there was a clear contrast between the socks etc there would be no need for all this.
Agreed.
TigerTank
26 Jun 2001, 15:18
Same issue - different colours.
http://richmondtigers.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=1495&p=2&stid=8137775
Originally posted by gPhonque
And to have the nerve to say that Wally isn't wanted because he said he won't turn up to Essendon games if they're not in the 'real' jumper is a joke, especially considering it's come from somebody who seems hell bent on destroying every last little bit of club & league tradition we have left. (finals, jumpers.........what's next on your list Jacko? Sorry, i mean Dan?)
:p
But that's what they do in English soccer gPhonque. According to Danny boy, we should just shut up and do the same. Here's another one......why don't we get our players to play with a round ball while we're at it :confused: After all, that's what they do in England.
where's wally?
gPhonque
26 Jun 2001, 16:31
...or Dan could just move to England and we'd all be happy.
:D
B.) At last count, Essendon has 143 different clothing items that can be bought. These include t-shirts, jumpers, jackets etc. There are about 20 different tyes of T-shirt designs, about a dozen jumper designs, about a dozen more jackets and coat designs. The club also sells three or four different playing tops. You can buy the traditional jumper, or you can buy the red training jumper. You can also buy the funny guernsey they wear when they come out for their warm up. (that's the one with the curvvy red sash that seems to get smaller and smaller)
Yes, and how many of these 143 items, (I can't believe you took the liberty to count every single ****en item available) do they wear on the field? ONE the RED SASH!
The AFL want us to come up with a design that will not clash with Melbourne, St.Kilda and possibly Richmond. The fact that we will be able to sell it as our 144th different item, will be a BONUS. The primary reaosn we need to change is to a avoid clashing with Melbourne and St.Kilda. It's not a money issue.
Dan that is utter bull**** and you know it. It is purely a marketting ploy as is the "accessories" such as tracksuits etc. You cannot say that the black sash is attractive. If we clash with St Kilda, well **** them, they can change their jumper.
You'd live well in america or say england following man utd, as you don't need a sense of tradition to follow clubs like that.
How is it soley a markeing ploy, M29?
You guys are unbelievable. All of you are so cynical.
My poitn was that while we only wear one guernsey, we still cash in on 143 different clothing designs. Making it 144 is nearly irrelevant. We already cash in on alternate jumper anyway - training jumpers which can be bought.
Obviosuly the AFL will make some cash out of the alternate jumpers (duh!) But that is a bonus to the main issue of avoiding a colour clash. They have just signed a 100 million dollar tv rights deal. Making a few thousand bucks from the sale of an alternate jumper (how many would buy it anyway) is only gioing to make them a small amount of money (in relative terms) The main issue is to avoid clour clashes.
Dave, as for the Ansett Cup design, the club themsevles have said no to that. There is no point. You must remeber, that the AFL have explicitly stated that the new designs MUST be made so as to avoid a clour clash. If a club comes up with a design which still clashes, the AFL will say : "come up with something else."
If the AFL didn't care about the colour clash and only cared about the money, then they wouldn't care what the new design is, right? But they do care, because they have to approve the design first!
We will not be changng our colours We will only be changing the amount of red and black on the jumper. And we will only be doing it for two games a year.
If you didn't have a problem witht the Essendon-St.Kilda match then you must be very special. We wore red, white and black (white shorts.) St.KIoda wore red, white and black. Now, I could tell the teams apart, obviosuly, but it wasn't immediately apparent if you were taking a quick glance at a pack of players around the ball. In a home and away game against Melbourne last year Gary Moorcroft handballed straight to a Melbourtne player. I heard him say on radio later that it was because he looked up, and saw the "dark and red" and handballed to the voice.
Now, obviously, our jumper is "slightly" different to Melbourne and St.Kilda, but it should be MORE different, so that it is immediately apparent who is who. If a player is in a pack, and looks up to see 10 players, he should be able to immediately see who is who, instead of having to make a quick visual asessment due to the colour clash.
If you guys don't want to suppor the club anynore when they change next year, fine. I'll still be supporting "ESSENDON." We will still be wearing red and black (just with more red for two games a year) and I will support the "CLUB" no matter what.
I've watched Essendon teams play in mud out at windy hill, I've also watched them play melbourne a fair few times as well. I don't see why all of a sudden we need to change the jumper to something completely hideous, as worn by Matthew Lloyd page 1.
gPhonque
26 Jun 2001, 19:46
(WARNING!! - RANT AHEAD. And sorry Dan, but you just happened to be in the firing line.)
originally posted by Dan25
My poitn was that while we only wear one guernsey, we still cash in on 143 different clothing designs. Making it 144 is nearly irrelevant. We already cash in on alternate jumper anyway - training jumpers which can be bought.
Dan. I'll assume that i'm speaking for everybody else and say that we couldn't give a crap HOW MANY clothing designs are sold. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything. It's all some little theory you've got worked out in your head.
I'll spell it out:
WE DO NOT WANT THE CLUB GUERNSEY CHANGED. WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE ESSENDON CONTINUE TO RUN OUT ONTO THE GROUND WEARING THE TRADITIONAL BLACK WITH RED SASH. THE GUERNSEY HASN'T NEEDED A CHANGE FOR 125 YEARS SO WHY DOES IT NEED IT NOW?
Colour clash? WHO CARES! I'd much rather watch Essendon play Melbourne with both teams wearing their traditional jumpers than see them in pretentious wanky artsy f`cked up piece of sh!t jumpers.
If a change is forced upon us, that would mean that you would never see Essendon and Melbourne play each other in their traditional guernseys ever again. And that can't be allowed to happen.
It's bad enough at the moment watching all the other teams run around in guernseys that, apart from being a f~cking disgrace, are an insult to all the great champions that have won Brownlows, Premierships, B&F's (etc) wearing their traditional club guernseys.
And you want that to happen to Essendon.
Wake up. Get out of your little bubble. If you love the format of English soccer so much, then GO AND LIVE THERE.
Off you go.
I'm getting sick of taking the time to reply to you when you don't respect what anybody has to say.
If you had read peoples posts, you would KNOW that the fact that 143 clothing items are sold has absolutely nothing to do with our argument. Proof that you only read what you want to read, and simply bait us with your replies.
Nobody on this planet has the right to force Essendon to get rid of their jumper. Even if it is only for 2 games a year. Anybody who thinks they do is of the opinion that their view outweighs 125 years of tradition.
So get over yourself Dan. And Wayne Jackson. And anybody else who thinks they can change our f~cking game.
Good day.
Originally posted by gPhonque
(WARNING!! - RANT AHEAD. And sorry Dan, but you just happened to be in the firing line.)
Dan. I'll assume that i'm speaking for everybody else and say that we couldn't give a crap HOW MANY clothing designs are sold. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything. It's all some little theory you've got worked out in your head.
I'll spell it out:
WE DO NOT WANT THE CLUB GUERNSEY CHANGED. WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE ESSENDON CONTINUE TO RUN OUT ONTO THE GROUND WEARING THE TRADITIONAL BLACK WITH RED SASH. THE GUERNSEY HASN'T NEEDED A CHANGE FOR 125 YEARS SO WHY DOES IT NEED IT NOW?
Colour clash? WHO CARES! I'd much rather watch Essendon play Melbourne with both teams wearing their traditional jumpers than see them in pretentious wanky artsy f`cked up piece of sh!t jumpers.
If a change is forced upon us, that would mean that you would never see Essendon and Melbourne play each other in their traditional guernseys ever again. And that can't be allowed to happen.
It's bad enough at the moment watching all the other teams run around in guernseys that, apart from being a f~cking disgrace, are an insult to all the great champions that have won Brownlows, Premierships, B&F's (etc) wearing their traditional club guernseys.
And you want that to happen to Essendon.
Wake up. Get out of your little bubble. If you love the format of English soccer so much, then GO AND LIVE THERE.
Off you go.
I'm getting sick of taking the time to reply to you when you don't respect what anybody has to say.
If you had read peoples posts, you would KNOW that the fact that 143 clothing items are sold has absolutely nothing to do with our argument. Proof that you only read what you want to read, and simply bait us with your replies.
Nobody on this planet has the right to force Essendon to get rid of their jumper. Even if it is only for 2 games a year. Anybody who thinks they do is of the opinion that their view outweighs 125 years of tradition.
So get over yourself Dan. And Wayne Jackson. And anybody else who thinks they can change our f~cking game.
Good day.
Yep,
Pretty much sums it up. Great post gPhonque.
where's wally?
Originally posted by gPhonque
Dan. I'll assume that i'm speaking for everybody else and say that we couldn't give a crap HOW MANY clothing designs are sold. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything.
It's got a lot to do with it. Why? Because people, are claiming that the AFL are doing it for the money. Why would they be doing it for the money, when the amount they would make from an alternate guenrseny would be chicken feed? Obviously the club would sell the new jumper. They'd be stupid not to. But that is a bonus.
Why would the AFL be so keen to increase their revenue by 0.1% There must be another motive. That motive is to ensure that there are no clashes in the future.
When I said we have 143 different clothing designs I am trying to point out that we already make a heap of revenue form all sorts of apparel. Adding a new jumper to that already vast range, that will be worn twice a year, will not significantly affect the bottom line of the AFL. That's my point, as far as the 143 lines of clothing is concerned.
I was pointing this out to those people who mistakenly believed it is SOLELY a money issue. Clearly it is not. People who say it is a money issue are "assuming" and "guessing". I have no time for people who can't back up what they say, and spend all thier time assuming and guessing.
Originally posted by gPhonque
WE DO NOT WANT THE CLUB GUERNSEY CHANGED. WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE ESSENDON CONTINUE TO RUN OUT ONTO THE GROUND WEARING THE TRADITIONAL BLACK WITH RED SASH.
I agree. I don't want the jumper changed. But this is not a club issue. It is an AFL issue. Looking atthe big picture, the jumper should be changed for the good of the game. But only for two games a year when there is a colour clash.
Originally posted by gPhonque
THE GUERNSEY HASN'T NEEDED A CHANGE FOR 125 YEARS SO WHY DOES IT NEED IT NOW?
Just because it wasn't an issue in 1900 does not mean it isn't an issue now. The bottom line is, it's become an issue, and 13 of the 16 clubs (including Carlton even) agree that alternate jumpers are necessary for one or two games a year.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Colour clash? WHO CARES!
Those people that want to easily tell the difference between the teams care. Now, I could tell the difference between St.Kilda and Essendon two weeks ago. But if there was a jumble of 10 players around the ball, and all the players were in motion, it was sometimes difficult to ascertian just how many Essendon players were in the pack. Both teams had red, white and black (we had white shorts.) Both teams should be immediately distinguishable. I actually remember a St.Kilda-Essendon match at Waverley in 1998, where players handballed to the oppositon on a couple of occasions. Gary Moorcroft did it against Melbourne last year too.
Originally posted by gPhonque
I'd much rather watch Essendon play Melbourne with both teams wearing their traditional jumpers than see them in pretentious wanky artsy f`cked up piece of sh!t jumpers.
Who is to say they are going to be wanky artsy f*cked up jumpers? Stop assuming! :mad: The clubs themselves will design the jumpers (not the AFL) and then the clubs will submit those design to the AFL. All we need is a jumper with more red than black. It could simply be a reverse jumper. Collingwood reversed their jumper this year, so that it is black with a white number. No wanky artsy design there.
Originally posted by gPhonque
If a change is forced upon us, that would mean that you would never see Essendon and Melbourne play each other in their traditional guernseys ever again.
So? And how will that affect the sport? When was the last time ManU and Arsenal wore their traditional jumpers against each other? NEVER! Does it affect the passion of the supporters? No, of course not!
So, from next year onwards, when Melbourne are the away team against us, they will "probably" come out in a reverse jumper, with mainly red, with a bit of blue at the top. How will this affect the game? Will supporters not go to games anymore? Will the clubs fold? Will Essendon and Melbourne go bankrupt? Will it affect our ability to win premierships? NO!
It is quite possible we will never ever again play Collingwood in their traditional jumper with black numbers on a white background. This year they have "reversed " their jumper. I don't recall any sadness from you that no Dons-Pies game ever again will ever have the traditional Magpie colours versus the Bombers.
Originally posted by gPhonque
And you want that to happen to Essendon.
Yes, for the good of the game But only for a couple of games per year. We will still wear red and black. The colours will be the same. Get used to it, because it is happening.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Wake up. Get out of your little bubble. If you love the format of English soccer so much, then GO AND LIVE THERE.
This has got nothing to do with English Soccer. It just happens that it is a good example. They wear alternate jumpers to avoid clashes - as does nearly every sport in the world. There are marketing spin-offs, but the reasosn they do it, is to avoid clashes. It's been done in all sports for 100 years, long before the financial spin-offs.
This has got nothing to do with the game of Australian Football. All we are talking about is what teams are wearing. The actual game itself is irrelevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by gPhonque
I'm getting sick of taking the time to reply to you when you don't respect what anybody has to say.
That sounds hypocritical to me. YOU don't respect what I say. Yep, hypocritical.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Nobody on this planet has the right to force Essendon to get rid of their jumper.
The AFL do. Essendon has an obligation to adibe by the rules of the competiton. Nothing wrong with our colours, but when we play a team with similar colours, we should come to some "middle ground" with the governing body, and design a jumper than keeps the colurs, but alters the amounts of those colours (red and black) for two games a year.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Anybody who thinks they do is of the opinion that their view outweighs 125 years of tradition.
Tradition is history. You can't alter history. History is history. How will this affect traditon? We will still wear red and black, right? How did Carlton M&Ms jumper affect their tradition? They are still a great club, right?
If we wear a mainly red jumper for two games a year, will it affect our ability to win? NO. Will it affect how many supporters we have? NO (apart from Wally :rolleyes: ). Will it affect our past premeirships? No, it won't - you can't alter history.
I mean, what in the hell do you think is going to happen to the club, if we wear a red jumper with a bit of black next year? What will happen? I suppose you think the club will begin to gradually unravel. :rolleyes:
I mean, come on, man! :mad: What the bloody hell is going to happen that will be so terrible if we wear a red jumper for two games a year for the next 100 years? We could do it for the next 300 years and it won't affect the sport or the club diddly squat.
Originally posted by gPhonque
So get over yourself Dan. And Wayne Jackson. And anybody else who thinks they can change our f~cking game.
NO ONE IS CHANGING THE GAME! :mad: We are only changing the jumper for two matches a year. This is NOT changing the game. Changing the game would be doing something like altering the rules. Deciding what a team wears is not changng the "game." It is changing a jumper.
I simply cannot believe the amount of dinousaurs that we have here. :rolleyes: This is not the big deal you all think it is. Wearing a mainly red jumper with bit of black for two or three games a year for the next 100 years will not change our club. It won't change our sport. All it will do is allow two teams on the field to be more easily distingushed.
For God's sake :rolleyes:
Fuuck Dan....that was one mutha of a post!!
gPhonque
27 Jun 2001, 00:38
Originally posted by Dan
It's got a lot to do with it. Why? Because people, are claiming that the AFL are doing it
for the money. Why would they be doing it for the money, when the amount they would
make from an alternate guenrseny would be chicken feed? Obviously the club would sell
the new jumper. They'd be stupid not to. But that is a bonus.
That doesn't alter our view that the changes are bad for the game. Bad in that they are changing the look of the game. And I, along with most other people in this thread, and probably most other football followers, do believe this is bad. And this is what we are debating. You raised a good example below when you mentioned Essendon Vs Collingwood. If you must know, and if you can't tell by my argument; then yes - it does bother me that Collingwood have changed their guernsey. Why? For the same reason it bothers me that Essendon may have to change theirs - all for the bullsh!t rubbish reason of an, arguable, "colour clash".
I agree. I don't want the jumper changed. But this is not a club issue. It is an AFL issue.
Looking atthe big picture, the jumper should be changed for the good of the game. But
only for two games a year when there is a colour clash.
"For the good of the game?" Since when did your opinion of what is good for the game become the correct opinion? Are you telling me that the jumpers should be changed for, what you believe, is "the good of the game"?
I'm am not saying that I am right when i say that the jumper shouldn't be changed. I'm simply saying that that's my opinion, and also simply pointing out that it is the opinion shared by the majority of people in this thread, and most likely, people in general.
Just because it wasn't an issue in 1900 does not mean it isn't an issue now.
Why? Who said it was an issue now? The same people who said that players bumping into umpires was an issue all of a sudden? The same people who change the rules every year? The same people who believe that we should name the 1st placed team at the end of the H&A season the "Premiers" and then play a useless "finals" system afterwards?
The bottom line is, it's become an issue,
Has it? To whom?
and 13 of the 16 clubs (including Carlton even) agree that
alternate jumpers are necessary for one or two games a year.
And let's not forget that Carlton are the same club that played in a light blue disgrace of a jumper all for a cheap tasteless M&M's promotion.
Those people that want to easily tell the difference between the teams care. Now, I
could tell the difference between St.Kilda and Essendon two weeks ago. But if there was
a jumble of 10 players around the ball, and all the players were in motion, it was
sometimes difficult to ascertian just how many Essendon players were in the pack. Both
teams had red, white and black (we had white shorts.) Both teams should be
immediately distinguishable.
They are immediately distinguishable - they wear different jumpers. We play on well drained grounds these days. I remember when the only time you heard about the so-called "colour clashes" were games like Essendon Vs St Kilda in the mud pit at Moorabbin.
Another thing - (and i think somebody else has brought this up already) - if "colour clashes" are the real reason behind a compulsory 2nd jumper, why are clubs like Hawthorn required to have a 2nd jumper? Why are Essendon being asked to have an alternate Ansett Cup jumper? What, are the AFL planning on matching up Essendon versus St Kilda and Melbourne twice?
The fact that all the other clubs are being asked to have 2nd (and even 3rd) jumpers kind of makes your "colour clash" argument even more doubtfull.
I actually remember a St.Kilda-Essendon match at
Waverley in 1998, where players handballed to the oppositon on a couple of occasions.
Gary Moorcroft did it against Melbourne last year too.
Big deal. It's part of football. Have you actually ever played football? Or are you one of these people who knows everything about the game despite having never actually played it?
What's to stop Gary Moorcroft running past David Schwartz and calling for the handball? Do you think that doesn't happen? I suppose you'll want ban that too, and report players for 'fraudulent play'?
Who is to say they are going to be wanky artsy f*cked up jumpers? Stop assuming!
The clubs themselves will design the jumpers (not the AFL) and then the clubs will
submit those design to the AFL.
LOL :rolleyes: Take a look at some of the disgraceful jumpers we've been priviliged enough to lay eyes on over the past few years! All approved by the AFL. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Another thing - I believe colour clashes are much worse now anyway. Clubs are cluttering up their guernseys with fancy patterns (and generally darker designs) making it harder for people in the stands to actually see who's who. COLOUR CLASHES ARE WORSE THANKS TO ALL THESE MAGNIFICENT NEW JUMPERS.
Anybody else agree?
All we need is a jumper with more red than black. It
could simply be a reverse jumper.
Somebody has already told you to go and look at the reverse jumper on the other page of this thread. Obviously you didn't listen, so i'll tell you again:
Go and have a look at the reverse jumper on the other page of this thread.
If you think that jumper is acceptable, then i can safely say that you have no idea.
So? And how will that affect the sport? When was the last time ManU and Arsenal wore
their traditional jumpers against each other? NEVER! Does it affect the passion of the
supporters? No, of course not!
Are we discussing soccer?
It is quite possible we will never ever again play Collingwood in their traditional jumper
with black numbers on a white background. This year they have "reversed " their jumper.
I don't recall any sadness from you that no Dons-Pies game ever again will ever have
the traditional Magpie colours versus the Bombers.
Ah! So you "have no time for people who can't back up what they say, and spend all thier time assuming and guessing" yet here you are assuming that it doesn't bother me that Collingwood changed their jumper? It certainly didn't look like a question. And you were calling me a hypocrite were you?
This has got nothing to do with English Soccer.
Then stop comparing the two games.
This has got nothing to do with the game of Australian Football. All we are talking about
is what teams are wearing. The actual game itself is irrelevant to this discussion.
Then why don't we just dress the players up in Armani suits, since it apparently has nothing to do with the game? White suits for the away team - dark suits for the home team. It could be like chess. No chance of a colour clash there.
The game is all about the jumpers. (Think about that and you'll find it's true.)
That sounds hypocritical to me. YOU don't respect what I say. Yep, hypocritical.
Ha! But you don't respect anything anybody has to say.
As for the rest of your post; I would just like to see some things stay the same. Just as i hope to god that Test cricketers never wear coloured clothes.
Am i a traditionalist? Yeah. And is that a bad thing?
How much is 125 years of history worth?
How much is it worth to be able to see Essendon & Collingwood line up in their original guernseys?
Footy isn't just a rule book you know.
cheers.
Originally posted by gPhonque
That doesn't alter our view that the changes are bad for the game. Bad in that they are changing the look of the game.
Look of the game? It's not like teams are coming out in their non-traditional colours. There is no indication that teams wil change theit actual colours. How is it bad for the game? Will people stop going to the footy? Will teams be unable to win premierships with their new jumpers? Will people stop watching on TV? How is it bad for the game? Give me some proof that the game of Aussie Rules will be in a worse state when we wear our new jumper. It's bad for the game if the game is worse off. Tell me how the game will be worse off. Tell me. Give me some proof.
Originally posted by gPhonque
"For the good of the game?" Since when did your opinion of what is good for the game become the correct opinion?
My opinion is just that. My opinion.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Are you telling me that the jumpers should be changed for, what you believe, is "the good of the game"?
Yes. For two games a year, to avoid the colour clash that presents itself when we play St.Kilda. For the good of the competition.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Why? Who said it was an issue now?
It isn't just an issue now. It's been an issue for a number of years, but the AFL havn't done anything about it. Probably because they don't see it as a big deal. I don't see us changing our jumper for two games per year as a big deal either. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's been brought up in the media (only occasionally by the AFL themselves) at various times over the last 10 years.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Has it? To whom?
You are aking who has it become an issue to. For Gods sake man, have a look. The fact that it is being discussed so fervently in the media should tell you that it is an issue.
Originally posted by gPhonque
They are immediately distinguishable - they wear different jumpers.
This is a dead-set idiotic comment from you. I gave you the logical explanation that a pack of Essendon and St.Kilda players all moving closely together resembles a mess of red, white, and black. You "mock" the comment, and embarrass yourself, by using sarcasm. You say : "They are immediately distinguishable - they wear different jumpers.
Obviously they wear different jumpers. Duh! But the jumpers have the same colours on them. When there is a big pack of players, it is hard to count exactly how many Bombers players there are without making the "effort" to count. Normally, against, say, North Melbourne we can tell at a "glance" how many Essendon players are around the ball. We don't need to make the effort to count. Against St.Kilda we had to make the effort. We shouldn't have to make the effort. As our eyes scan the play, we should be able to tell at a "glance" which team is which.
Obviosuly, if we come out with red, white, and black, and the Saints wear red, white and black, then there are going to be times, where a pack of players makes it hard to instantaneously distinguish between the two teams.
Teams should be immediately distinguishable at a glance. Players often have to give away a quick handball out of the corner of their eye. They don't have time to look. They have to make the decison after a quick "glance". Obviously, if all 36 players have red, white and black on them then errors are more frequent.
Originally posted by gPhonque
Big deal. it's part of football
Stupid comment. You said this in relation to Gary Moorcroft handballing to a Melbourne player last year in Round 9. Colour clashes are part of football are they? Well at least you admit there are colour clashes. Moorcroft admitted on radio after that game that he had mistaken the red and dark blue (nearly black) jumper for a teammate. He made a mistake due to the similarity of the jumpers. Don't assume that he didn't. It's a fact that he did - he said so. If you think players handballing to opponents due to them thinking they are teammates because of similar jumpers is part of football, then that is a part of football we don't want!
Originally posted by gPhonque
Have you actually ever played football? Or are you one of these people who knows everything about the game despite having never actually played it?
Yes, I have played it. Once again, you are assuming and guessing. I have no time for people who assume and guess. Back up what you say. :mad:
Originally posted by gPhonque
Then stop comparing the two games
Look. Soccer is a different sport, but the "principle" of the jumper changes is the same. The sport is irrelevant, it's the principle. Changing a jumper is NOT changing the sport. It's a clothing item. It's relevant to use the soccer example because they started having alternate jumpers long before there were any financial spin-offs. The jumpers were made with the SOLE reason to differentiate between teams with similar colours.
Originally posted by gPhonque
But you don't repect anything, anyone has to say.
Yes I do. I just don't agree with you.
Once again, you have given me your ramble about how much tradition is worth. Explain to me how we lose our tradition again?
We will still wear red and black for all 22 games.
We will still be the Essendon Football Club
We will still have the same history, and will continue to add to it.
We will still be able to strive for premeirships
We will still be supporteed by the same people.
Think about it, man! When we moved to the MCG in 1992, I suppose you still wanted to be at Windy Hill for the sake of "tradition" :rolleyes: How does the tradition of the club get affected by playing at the MCG in 1992? How? HOW? We are still the same club, right? Still being able to strive for premeirships, and being supported by the same people, right? Were we worse off by playing at the MCG? Because we stopped the tradition of playing at Windy Hill, I suppose you must logically think (using your logic) that the club went downhill. :rolleyes:
Same story with the jumper change next year. How will it affect tradition? TELL ME. HOW WILL THE CLUB BE WORSE OFF?
We will still be the same club, with the same colours, in the same league, striving for premierships, with the same history. What price traditon, you ask? What the hell do you mean? How does changing the jumper for two games affect the history or tradition? How? You seem to think that the jumper is the "sport" of Aussie Rules. A jumper is a jumper. Changing a jumper is NOT changing the sport. If we put a rule in to stop flooding, then that is changing the sport. If we force a club to play in a mainly red jumper with a bit of black twice a year, that is NOT CHANGING THE BLOODY SPORT. :mad:
You are a dead-set dinosaur. You are probably one of those fans that want the VFL back, and want to get rid of Sydney and Brisbane, even though those two cities are in states that comprise 60% of Australias population and are vital for the growth of the game of Aussie Rules.
Well you had better get used to the jumper change, because it will happen, for a couple of games every year for the next 100 years. Oh my god, how will we all live? :rolleyes:
Here we go again!! lol
About 15 of us watched Carlscum-Port on Sunday and we all found the jumpers a little too close. Yea, when you look hard you can distinguish them, but it makes you focus on the bloody jumpers and not the game. Then there is the issue with the sun/shaded areas of the ground, and sometimes its impossible to tell who's who. Its probably a bigger issue on tv than live, but it is a problem and if anybody says its not, is kidding themselves.
I cant see how changing the jumper is an AFL marketing ploy, as Essendon would gain the most from this, not the AFL. This argument is riddiculous IMO.
The Essendon FC has changed its jumper in the past, and is going to be forced to change its jumper again. It wont change its colours, simply the location of those colours.
And not going to watch Essendon because the AFL has forced Essendon to alter the location of its colours is the most childish, almost unbelievable comment Ive heard in a while! What a load of crap!
It is stupid to look at this issue from the viewpoint of the EFC, because the EFC doesnt want to change! Thats FACT, if the EFC had its way it wouldnt change. Most people here are looking at this from Essendons viewpoint - thats stupid because ESSENDON DOESNT WANT TO CHANGE!
This is an AFL issue - Essendon is simply one of 16 clubs in the AFL. The AFl cant say "this team must change, but that one doesnt" - it must make a uniform rule if it wants to get rid of this problem. Essendon shouldnt get special treatment and were not gonna!!
Originally posted by Dan25
My poitn was that while we only wear one guernsey, we still cash in on 143 different clothing designs. Making it 144 is nearly irrelevant. We already cash in on alternate jumper anyway - training jumpers which can be bought.
Exactly, they are TRAINING tops. How many different TRAINING tops has the club had in it's history Dan? 10? 20? 100? How many match day jumpers? ONE! Spot the difference yet?
The fact that the CLUB makes money out of these 143 items is irrelevant to the AFL's desire to make more money out of another jumper. Do you understand the difference between the club & the AFL? Essendon makes money out of the various paraphanelia that is sold through the club, not the AFL, and most of these items would be sold through the club (I haven't seen 143 items on sale at Kmart!). The AFL will make more money out of a new jumper because jumpers are the biggest selling item at outlets like Kmart etc.
Obviosuly the AFL will make some cash out of the alternate jumpers (duh!) But that is a bonus to the main issue of avoiding a colour clash.
You've got that arse about Dan. Avoiding the so-called clashes is the "bonus" associated with making lots of extra money. That's not a guess, it's a fact. A fact proven by all the decisions taken by the league over the past ten years. Colonial. Reserved seats in the AFL at the GF despite most members opposition. Removing the $2 rebate for away club members. Awarding the tv rights to the highest bidder despite their past record of mistreating sports they have the rights to. Scrapping the reserves. They have all been decision made with the dollars to be made being the central factor.
Not guessing at all Dan.
They have just signed a 100 million dollar tv rights deal. Making a few thousand bucks from the sale of an alternate jumper (how many would buy it anyway) is only gioing to make them a small amount of money (in relative terms) The main issue is to avoid clour clashes.
Rubbish. It doesn't matter how much money they make from TV rights sales. They are never satisfied with what they've got. They will always want more. The AFL have shown that in that regard they're no different from any other business. When presented with the concerns of fans this year Wayne Jacksons response was to the effect that crowds were growing and "we only ever hear this stuff from Melbourne anyway". Sounds like an organisation that's really has the best interests of it's customers (that's us Dan) at heart.
Dave, as for the Ansett Cup design, the club themsevles have said no to that. There is no point.
Exactly, so WHY did the league demand it in the first place? If it wasn't to avoid a so-called jumper clash what was it's purpose? Could it have been, shocking concept I know, money? Or is that a guess? Seems fairly logical to me, and given that it throws significant doubt on the altruism of their other demands no matter how you attempt to spin it.
If the AFL didn't care about the colour clash and only cared about the money, then they wouldn't care what the new design is, right? But they do care, because they have to approve the design first!
Obviously if a new team comes in they cannot have a jumper that's the same as an existing one. That does not mean that jumper clashes are the leagues number one concern. If they didn't care about marketing why did they advise Freo to come up with a non traditional style guernsey incorporating colors that had not been traditionally associated with football clubs?
The AFL are using the so-called jumper clash issue as a red herring and nothing more.
We will not be changng our colours We will only be changing the amount of red and black on the jumper.
That remains to be seen. It's not a fait accompli.
And we will only be doing it for two games a year.
Yeah, just like there'd be no lockouts at Colonial...just like all victorian teams would have their interstate games televised in full. Am I guessing that they'll be no more trustworthy on this issue than any other, or is a track record of broken promises a good inidication that an organisation cannot be trusted?
If you didn't have a problem witht the Essendon-St.Kilda match then you must be very special.
I wish. Just a normal bloke who hasn't been sucked in by the AFL's publicity machine. I've been going to the footy for over 25 years and I had more trouble telling players apart in the old days when we played on mud heaps than I ever have these days.
We wore red, white and black (white shorts.) St.KIoda wore red, white and black. Now, I could tell the teams apart, obviosuly, but it wasn't immediately apparent if you were taking a quick glance at a pack of players around the ball.
I don't take quick glances at the football. I watch it continuously. Perhaps that's why the AFL think there's such a problem, they're full of people who only glance at the football.
If you guys don't want to suppor the club anynore when they change next year, fine. I'll still be supporting "ESSENDON." We will still be wearing red and black (just with more red for two games a year) and I will support the "CLUB" no matter what. [/B]
I didn't say I wouldn't be supporting the club. But I will take action if the AFL orverride the wishes of the membership in their endless pursuit of the allmighty dollar. AND I can respect Wally if he believes the issue is worth taking a stand such as not attending those games. Actually, given they are away games he wont be hurting the club at all as the gate for those matches goes to the other team. Hadn't thought of that had you Dan?
It's OUR club, OUR jumper and THEY have no right to force us to change it simply because THEY want to make a extra buck or two.
It's not in the best interests of the game, it's in the best interests of the AFL's bottom line. Well, THEY can get stuffed.
You are also wrong about tradition being history and history always being with us. Essendon have a tradition of always having worn the same jumper for every competitive match they've ever played. If that is taken away, how is the tradition still there? If we wear a different jumper, how is that tradition maintained? Even if the history is there the tradition is not. Once broken, gone forever.
You still haven't answered my question about what's changed either Dan. Why is it an issue now when it wasn't 100, or even 50 years ago? Are people today less intelligent? Do we have worse eyesight? Lower attention spans? What's changed?
Your comments re Windy Hill are not a valad comparision as the club didn't always play there either. We've had a number of different home grounds, we've only ever had one competition jumper. But yes, football at colonial or even the MCG is not quite the same as it was at the Hill. And it does sadden me that I will never be able to take my son to the footy there the way my dad did and his dad did before him. There was an atmosphere there that just is not the same these days. It may not be something that can be quantified into dollars and cents or premiership points, but it is something that is very important to me nonetheless.
You want to know how the club will be worse off Dan? I'll tell you. We'll have lost a tradition that's marks us as unique amongst all the clubs currently in the AFL competition. Obviously to you that's not a "big deal" but to a number of the rest of us seeing the club lose a little of it's soul is a big deal. The identity of our club is made up of it's history and tradition. Lose too much of it and you lose what it is that differentiates us from any other club.
That is what is important to me. Why do you think Freo are struggling? Because they are an artificial club with no culture, no history and no tradition. They'd have been better off admitting one of the two wafl freo clubs. No, changing the jumper wont mean the club is unrecognisable from that which it is today, but it's yet another step down the path Dan. It's one step closer to being so. It's a step that will enable in future people to say "it's no big deal, after all we already changed our jumper once before" in the same manner that you have used the move from Windy Hill in your arguments. It's one step down a path I'd rather not see us take. That doesn't make me a dinosaur Dan, it simply makes me a member who doesn't want to see his clubs tradition pissed away in the pursuit of the dollar. It makes me a member who cherishes our clubs identity. Who thinks it's great that we can say, see that jumper, we've played in that every game in every competition we've ever played in and I don't want to see it changed. Who wants to be able to take his son to the footy and have him see the side wearing the same jumper every time, as they did when he went to his first game. Who wants to be able to give his grandson the first jumper he ever wore and not have him say "That's not our jumper grandad", or "I want the other jumper Grandad". That's important to me Dan and if you think that makes me worth less to the club as a member than you then so be it.
Originally posted by Smokin
The Essendon FC has changed its jumper in the past
Once, and before we started playing competition football. We have played every competitive match in the same jumper since 1877.
And you and Dan are wrong. There is no problem. You said it yourself, you could tell the difference, it was just harder. Well boo hoo, you've got to put some effort into it. Excuse me if I believe that changing our colors because some people can't be bothered making an effort is not worthwhile or in the "best interests of the game".
gPhonque
27 Jun 2001, 14:01
Thankyou Dave.
gPhonque,
cheers mate.
As you can tell I'm fairly fired up about this one.
Top stuff Dave.
Dan I suppose your one of those people as well that beleive that the Team of The Century things aren't a marketting ploy as well.
Originally posted by Smokin
And not going to watch Essendon because the AFL has forced Essendon to alter the location of its colours is the most childish, almost unbelievable comment Ive heard in a while! What a load of crap!
Are you insinuating that i'm a liar?
Look, i take out a Silver membership each year as well as annual seats at Colonial and the MCG for our 11 home games. This year the cost was around $380.00. No doubt it will rise again next year. This membership doesn't cover away games. As Dave pointed out, all money at the gate goes to the home team.
I can't see how i'm hurting our club by not attending away games when the $$$ goes to the other mob. This may seem "childish" and a crock of sh!t to the likes of you and Dan. But i don't care, it's my money, and i'll attend games when i see fit.
Also, I don't believe this "it's for the good of the game" crap for one second. Every decision the AFL is a business decision based on profit....read Dave's post. Joe Public's feelings and opinions are not an issue. Wayne Jackson and his mates have picked up the baton from Oakley, willing to spin any line or sell anything to bleed every last cent from him.
Football costs enough as it is, i refuse to give 'em any more than i already do. If that means not attending games (yes Dan, finals included) 'cause i don't approve of Wayne Jackson's decision to change our jumper then so be it. Christ knows, i wouldn't be the first bloke to become disillusioned with the way the game's headed, and i sure as sh!t wouldn't be the last. I am finished with this subject.
where's wally?
Originally posted by Wally
Football costs enough as it is, i refuse to give 'em any more than i already do. If that means not attending games (yes Dan, finals included) 'cause i don't approve of Wayne Jackson's decision to change our jumper then so be it. Christ knows, i wouldn't be the first bloke to become disillusioned with the way the game's headed, and i sure as sh!t wouldn't be the last. I am finished with this subject.
Amen! Bloody well said Wally.
Originally posted by Dave
You've got that arse about Dan. Avoiding the so-called clashes is the "bonus" associated with making lots of extra money. That's not a guess, it's a fact
No, it's a guess. The AFL has said that they want to aviod the issue of colour clashes. You are assuming and guessing that they are lying. Do you make a habit of deliberatley not believeing what you are told? Your credibility is in tatters, because you are deliberatley not believing the AFL, and then you pass of your "guesses" and "assumptions" as a fact.
Very poor Dave,
Originally posted by Dave
A fact proven by all the decisions taken by the league over the past ten years.
That doesn't prove it, you dill :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Dave
Reserved seats in the AFL at the GF despite most members opposition.
Wrong. AFL Members were asked to vote. I know this because I received a voting form. Most members elected to have reserved seats for the Grand Final for a small cost. (I voted for first in, first served by the way)
I suppose you are going to "assume" that they rigged the results now? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Dave
That does not mean that jumper clashes are the leagues number one concern. If they didn't care about marketing why did they advise Freo to come up with a non traditional style guernsey incorporating colors that had not been traditionally associated with football clubs?
They asked Freo to come up with a marketable desing so that they could sell it. Duh! Do you think if Freo weren't given this ultimatum, that they would have come up with a boring, non-financial design? Given that they are a new club, it is in their best interested to come up with something appealing.
And I never said jumper clashes were the leagues number one concern. But they are a concern, nevertheless.
Originally posted by Dave
The AFL are using the so-called jumper clash issue as a red herring and nothing more.
Rubbish. You are assumng and guessing, as always. I'm telling you the financial benefits are microscopic compared to the total merchandising revenue. It's not worth the AFL incurring so much wrath unless they have another agenda. The agenda they have is to avoid colour clahes. The fact that they will be able to reap the financial benefits will be a bonus.
Dave, if the AFL ONLY cared about the money, then they wouldn't care what design clubs came up with, as long as they could be sold in K-Mart's, right? But the AFL have explicitly stated that clubs must come up with designs that do not clash with the opposition. Is it that hard to accept that the AFL might just not want to have clour clashes?
Look at me as an example. If I worked at the AFL, I would suggest that all clubs have a jumper to avoid clashes. I wouldn't be recommending it for the money at all. Why wouldn't there be someone like me in the AFL? Sure, they will reap the financial rearrds. Good on 'em. But that is a BONUS. You can't just call someone (the AFL) a liar without any proof.
Originally posted by Dave
Am I guessing that they'll be no more trustworthy on this issue than any other, or is a track record of broken promises a good inidication that an organisation cannot be trusted?
This has got nothing to do with those other issues. This is a separate issue. You're being far too cynical. All they are doing is ensuring that teams won't clash. All sports do it. many other sports did it long before the financial spin-offs, but do you bring this up? No!
Originally posted by Dave
I don't take quick glances at the football. I watch it continuously. Perhaps that's why the AFL think there's such a problem, they're full of people who only glance at the football.
This is an idiotic comment. If you don't think there is a problem with "dark and red" (Essendon-Melbourne) all over the field, then you are blind. It's not a major football issue but it is an issue.
You also ask why it hasn't been a problem before. It has been a problem, and it has been brought up at various times over the last 15 years. Jumper changes have not been seen as being a big issue (I don't think it is a big issue), so nothing has ever been done. The bottom line is, it is a problem now (cause I say it is) and it is time we make changes for two games a year.
Originally posted by Dave
It's not in the best interests of the game
Yes it is.
Originally posted by Dave
You are also wrong about tradition being history and history always being with us. Essendon have a tradition of always having worn the same jumper for every competitive match they've ever played. If that is taken away, how is the tradition still there? If we wear a different jumper, how is that tradition maintained? Even if the history is there the tradition is not. Once broken, gone forever.
And how will it affect the football club? How will it be bad for the game?
For God's sake tell me! If we wear a red jumper with a bit of black for two games a year, it will mean we will have stopped the continuous "black with red sash" design. So, what? It's only for two games a year.
The club will still be the sme club, right? The club will still have the same supporters. We will still be striving to win premierships, and we will still be red and black. What is the problem? How will we be worse off?
How will you, or I be worse off? How will the club be worse off?
You annoy me so much because you write your post with the implication that it will be bad for the club if we change our jumper for two games a year. HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL WILL IT BE BAD FOR THE CLUB? What will happen that will make the club worse off? We will still wear the traditional jumper for 20 games a year, right? So what's the problem?
Carlton changed their jumper for the first time EVER in 1998 with the light blue. Admittedly this was for money, but how was this bad for them? How was the "break of tradition" bad for the club? They are still one of the great clubs, and they have continued to wear their traditionl jumper ever since? What has happened since that break in tradiiton in 1998, that has been so terrible for Carlton, or the AFL? How have they been worse off? How have their fans been worse off? The answer, Dave is the NO ONE has been worse off. You "emotional" story does not explain how anybody will be worse off. You are just telling how much you love the jumper (as I do). You are actually telling me any reasons why we will be worse off.
You also say that the AFL could make us wear the new design 11 times. :rolleyes: This is the most stupid comment of all. IF you are right and the AFL were doing it solely for the money, how would they benefit if we wear it 11 times instead of two? How? If we wear it twice, we will still cash in on it, right? It will still be sold in K-Mart whether we wear it 11 times, or twice. How will we cash in more if we wear it 11 times? What do the AFL gain financially by making us wear it 11 times, instead of 2? I'll give you an example. ManU make extra jumpers for the money, right? But they only wear their alternate strip if there is a clash. Even if ManU are the away team, they still wear their normal red strip. The ONLY exception is, when they play another team that wears red.
Originally posted by Dave
Your comments re Windy Hill are not a valid comparision as the club didn't always play there either.
It IS a valid comparison. We stopped the 70 year tradition of playing there. How are we worse off? How are YOU worse off? HOW IS THE SPORT WORSE OFF?
Collingwod had been playing at Victoria Park since the VFL's inception in 1897. They stopped doing it in 1999? They stopped the tradition of playing at Victoria Park. How has this affected them? Are they worse off as a club now? Have people stopped supporting them becasue they moved to the MCG? Are they any less "great" as a club because they stopped the 102 year tradition?
Dave, you've got to understand Essendon has been a great club, with a great tradition of success. Part of the reason for that is that we respect our traditions but we DON'T remain stagnant. We move with the times when they are appropriate. Changing the jumper twice a year will not affect you or the club? It will simply allow the supporters to more easily distinguish between the teams. NO ONE WILL BE WORSE OFF. I repeat, no one will be worse off.
If we change our jumper twice a year, and do this for the next 100 years, what will happen over the next 100 years that you think will be so terrible? Tell me....what? The "reasons" you gave explaining how we wil be worse off are not reasons at all. I want REASONS, not an emotional story about how your grandfather and grandson love the jumper (which we will still wear for the next 100 years anyway)
gPhonque
27 Jun 2001, 18:55
F~ck this - i haven't finished yet:
Who the f~ck is Wayne Jackson? Who the f~ck does he think he is? How the f~ck did this embarressment of a human being get the right to waltz over here from Fairyland and decide that $$ are more important than our tradition-soaked 125 year old guernsey?
(excuse the language but i'm f u c k i n g angry now. :mad: )
If i was big enough (he's a big bastard lol) and i saw him on the street, i'd f~cking deck him. Simple as that. Actually, f~ck it. I'll deck him anyway. He can't retaliate or he'll lose his job......
.....wait a sec, now there's a thought!!!! :D (silly rant ahead - don't take it seriously......unless you want to.... ;) )
Ok - if every person promises to punch Jackson in the head, he'll be sure to hit one of us eventually. Now, i know that violence isn't supposed to solve anything, but when the problem is a meathead idiot like Wayne Jackson, can there be any other way?
(end mini rant)
(start next rant...)
Wally - you're definately not the 1st person to be disillusioned by where the game is going. I haven't been a member since '99 (no, it had nothing to do with Preliminary Final day. lol) The reason is because the game is a ghost of what it once was. It's plastic. It's not "footy" anymore. If i want to sit in my seat like a good little boy, i'll go to a bloody basketball game...... but i don't want to. I would like to be able to go to the football again one day. But not until it's in the hands of somebody who actually respects where this competition came from.
Jackson doesn't respect anything. This whole argument proves that.
My only hope for our game is that everybody cancels their memberships and the AFL go broke. Would they listen to people then? Of course they would! WE ARE THE GAME.
Without us, there is no AFL.
(Yet we are continually being ignored. Come on people, stand up against these idiots. If every Essendon member was to cancel their membership as a protest against the jumper change, do you think the jumper would still change next year......?)
As i said earlier Dan, football is not just a rule book. It's the jumpers; the people; the grounds; the traditions.
Footy's just not the same anymore, and all because of people like you Dan.
Can't we just have ONE YEAR where we leave the f~cking game alone????
It would maybe inspire me to renew my membership, and probably a lot of other people too.
Dan - as for calling me, and people who actually have a little respect for tradition "dinosaurs" - F U C K Y O U.
What is wrong with continuing our great tradition? It is a good tradition is it not?
If our club tradition was to lose Grand Finals, then that would be something we would want to change. (hehe)
If our club tradition was to discriminate against Aboriginal people, THAT would be something we would want to change.
The Essendon FC has a rich tradition, and a big part of that is our jumper, and the fact that we have never changed it.
Colour clash my arse.
If you can't see, then f u c k off and watch another sport.
Dan and Wayne Jackson are exactly alike. Both know that the majority of people DO NOT WANT Essendon to change their jumper, whether it be for 2 games a year, or 2 QUARTERS a year. We do NOT want it changed.
Yet both insist on ignoring everybody in order to get what they want.
And no Dan - i am not ignoring your view. I'm simply a part of the silent majority, the difference being that i'm speaking my mind.
Dan - NOT ONE PERSON HAS EVER SAID YOUR FINALS IDEA IS GOOD.
And in my opinion, that makes you wrong. Just as you are wrong about our jumper.
Notice that, once again, it's Dan Vs The Rest?
Go and get a life Dan. Overseas preferably. And take your 'red with black sash' with you. And i want you to wear it on the plane. And i also want you to let me know when your flight leaves so i can come and p!ss myself laughing at you.
Good ****ing day.
gPhonque,
What the hell has this got to do with my finals system? 13 of the 16 clubs agree with jumper changes, as do the AFL and thousands of supporters. Don't bring up irrelevant points.
Whether you are with me or against me, there is no excuse for the insulting garbage you just wrote in your last post. I am not going to respond to anything you write on this topic after what I am writing now, because you don't have any credibility with me whatsoever after that. You are one of those people that think they know a lot about football, but really knows nothing.
At least Dave presents a challenge for me, and is not insulting (well, not as insulting as you anyway)
Originally posted by Dan25
...
Liverpoool came out in a yellow strip for the FA Cup final against Arsenal (both clubs are traditionally red). My god, the Liverpool fans must have been aghast :rolleyes:
...
Actually Dan, it was YELLOW and BLACK!
And the same argument from a Richmond perspective...
Going to New Jersey (http://richmondtigers.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=1495&p=2&stid=8137775) - Tiger Tank
(This is the text of the document. You will need to take the link above to see the jumper designs. Sorry, I tried to make this as non spammy as possible.)
It would seem that the majority of Richmond supporters don't want to leave tradition and are against using a different "away" jersey.
While I admire their respect for club tradition (although I for one am beginning to take a different view on tradition - see Being Honest), some changes aren't necessarily a bad idea.
The fact of the matter is that there are colour clashes between some clubs, and that in this age of professional sport this is ridiculous. And if Richmond supporters are going to lecture, say, Melbourne supporters, about this issue then surely we should also 'do the right thing'.
Richmond's only obvious clashes are with Essendon, West Coast and Hawthorn - something that is usually accentuated when Richmond wears white shorts. And if it is an Essendon home game, for example, we can't expect Essendon to 'don' the white shorts.
As you all know, I reckon Richmond look sh!thouse in white shorts anyway (see Short Stories ). Unless the AFL gives Richmond special consideration to wear black shorts every week then this problem will not go away.
Richmond will continue to look tough when we play at home and insipid when we play away.
A logical solution is to design an away jumper that (shock!) actually looks good with white shorts. I know this is a 'revolutionary concept' but I'm sure it's not impossible.
Now I imagine that some Richmond supporters would want me executed for speaking such heresy (if the Tigers finish ninth again then feel free). But even proud, successful clubs like Manchester United wear away strips (some that aren't even in 'traditional' club colours), and from a merchandising perspective it is a proven money spinner for the club.
If you'll indulge me further, I have an idea of what I reckon the jumper could look like. (See left) I don't claim to be Michelangelo (or any other Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, for that matter) but I could see this work with white shorts. It the very least it looks nothing like an Essendon jumper.
One newspaper suggested that Richmond's alternative strip should be a simple inversion of gold with black sash. This looks even WORSE with white shorts. I would not let my children (if I had them) bear witness to such an abomination.
Still, what the jersey looks like is not the issue really. Yes, the classic Richmond jumper is sacred for home games, but supporters must be realistic. Jumper clashes are not 'good for the game', so to speak, and if a new jersey can pay at least some homage to the classic jersey, then that's fine by me.
gPhonque
27 Jun 2001, 20:17
You are the single most arrogant person i've ever.....well, i can't say "met".......seen.
What the hell has this got to do with my finals system? 13 of the 16 clubs agree with jumper changes, as do the AFL and thousands of supporters. Don't bring up irrelevant points.
It's not irrelevant at all. If a person is up on a murder charge and they have a history of violent behaviour, is that persons history deemed irrelevent to the case?
Of course not.
We're establishing behaviour patterns.
Your pattern is to argue with people. I was pointing out that you were convicted of being wrong. (ie. nobody agreed with you on your finals system. Nobody. Doesn't that mean anything to you?)
Therefore, is it so hard to believe that you could be wrong again?
Whether you are with me or against me, there is no excuse for the insulting garbage you just wrote in your last post.
And i apologize. But you shouldn't take it so seriously at the same time. This is just a message board you know.
God help you if i was to tell you what i really think of you. (LOL :D )
I am not going to respond to anything you write on this topic after what I am writing now, because you don't have any credibility with me whatsoever after that.
LOL! I remember saying that very thing to you in another thread.
You are one of those people that think they know a lot about football, but really knows nothing.
Did i not already say that to you earlier in this thread.....?
And also, what, may i ask, is your definition of somebody who "knows about football"?
Are you saying i need to know that there are 143 clothing items for sale or something do i?
Get a clue.
At least Dave presents a challenge for me, and is not insulting (well, not as insulting as you anyway)
Haha! Dave has shot you to pieces every time! Regurgitating the same post over & over doesn't cut it Dan.
cheers.
Originally posted by Dave
...
My mum's over 60, wears glasses, and even she had no trouble telling who was who sitting in the top bloody deck!!! For crying out loud, you lose any credibility you had when you make outlandish claims like this Daniel.
...
Dave,
As you know I was once an umpire. I once umpired a game where Devon Meadows (St. Kilda - traditional jumper) hosted Hampton Park (Essendon - with white shorts)
It was an absolute nightmare.
Never mind you dear mum sitting in the top deck... I was only about 15 - 20 metres away from the players and had great difficulty telling them apart. Especially when they went into a pack (this was low grade football - their were heaps of packs). All I could see was this seething mass of red, black and white.
This is not an entirely new issue - as far as I can remember, people where bitching about this from in the 70's. I remember as a little tacker watching the Big League on a Saturday night (pre - color TV days) watching North Melbourne and Collingwood get about in their vertical stripe jumpers. You think that wasn't a problem!
When Dan mentioned about the mess that was Essendon/St. Kilda the other week, someone shot him down, saying players weren't exactly kicking it straight to the opposition. While not paying too much attention to that game at the time, I would expect Dan's assertion to be correct.
Only 2 weeks ago, we were playing Carlton. In the first quarter Joel Bowden gains possession in the half back line and rebounds out of defence. He was under no real pressure at the time but managed to pick out Silvagni who was 20m by himself in the centre square. Bowden (who is obviously a skilful kick) did not appear to miskick it - he actually spotted Silvagni's dark jumper and kicked straight too it. I kept count of the times during that game when a player turned a ball directly over to the opposition in similar circumstances. By my reckoning, this happened 6 times (3 each). It was embarrasing to watch (and thus increased by resolve to push for alternative jumpers!)
This same debate is raging amongst Richmond fans who are seemingly equally divided (and fired up) on this issue as it appears Essendon is.
We've had basically the same arguments go back and forth as I've read on this thread and have not made any headway in either direction.
Until some bloke (Calvin Wordsmith) wrote in with something very smart:
"While I think it is admirable for supporters in this day and age of corporatisation of the game to get sentimental in how they view our club's guernsey (which is without question the best in the league - he says totally unbiased !) it appears that some people may not appreciate the entire history of the Richmond Football Club.
The black with yellow sash is not the only guernsey Richmond have ever worn in competition. When formed in 1885 Richmond originally wore a guernsey with black and yellow vertical stripes. This jumper was also worn for our first game in the VFL in 1908.
In addition to this, the jumper was changed in 1995 by having the sash removed from the back to make the numbers more visible (a change I believe actually enhanced the look of the jumper). I don't remeber us members being consulted about such a move at the time.
The reality is that AFL clubs need to maximise every money making opportunity (in particular Victorian clubs) to remain competitive on the field. Think of the marketing opportunities associated with an away strip.
My suggestion is that in order to satisfy the traditionalists, we should have an away jumper based on Richmond's first it wore in competition in 1885 (they could even embroider a special Est. 1885 on the front). In this way we won't get left behind other clubs in the marketing sense, while we are paying homage to our past."
I near on stood up and applauded. How better to quell the traditionalist argument by going full on with tradition! We can look to the future whilelooking at the past at the same time.
Originally posted by CJH
Dave,
As you know I was once an umpire. I once umpired a game where Devon Meadows (St. Kilda - traditional jumper) hosted Hampton Park (Essendon - with white shorts)
It was an absolute nightmare.
Never mind you dear mum sitting in the top deck... I was only about 15 - 20 metres away from the players and had great difficulty telling them apart. Especially when they went into a pack (this was low grade football - their were heaps of packs). All I could see was this seething mass of red, black and white.
Fair 'nuf, I'll take your word for it. I've never had too much trouble, infact the old days when Moorabin & Windy Hill were often mud heaps presented more of a challenge. Hampton park wear red&black vertical stripes don't they? MP league? Out my way!
This same debate is raging amongst Richmond fans who are seemingly equally divided (and fired up) on this issue as it appears Essendon is.
We've had basically the same arguments go back and forth as I've read on this thread and have not made any headway in either direction.
Until some bloke (Calvin Wordsmith) wrote in with something very smart:
"While I think it is admirable for supporters in this day and age of corporatisation of the game to get sentimental in how they view our club's guernsey (which is without question the best in the league - he says totally unbiased !) it appears that some people may not appreciate the entire history of the Richmond Football Club.
The black with yellow sash is not the only guernsey Richmond have ever worn in competition. When formed in 1885 Richmond originally wore a guernsey with black and yellow vertical stripes. This jumper was also worn for our first game in the VFL in 1908.
In addition to this, the jumper was changed in 1995 by having the sash removed from the back to make the numbers more visible (a change I believe actually enhanced the look of the jumper). I don't remeber us members being consulted about such a move at the time.
The reality is that AFL clubs need to maximise every money making opportunity (in particular Victorian clubs) to remain competitive on the field. Think of the marketing opportunities associated with an away strip.
My suggestion is that in order to satisfy the traditionalists, we should have an away jumper based on Richmond's first it wore in competition in 1885 (they could even embroider a special Est. 1885 on the front). In this way we won't get left behind other clubs in the marketing sense, while we are paying homage to our past."
I near on stood up and applauded. How better to quell the traditionalist argument by going full on with tradition! We can look to the future whilelooking at the past at the same time.
Yeah I read that, and in your situation I'd agree with him. Unfortunately we have nothing similar to fall back on. We've only ever had one competition jumper and I don't want to see us lose it. aybe that's illogical and over emotional but that's what footy's about. Dan doesn't quite seem to understand that.
Originally posted by Dan25
No, it's a guess. The AFL has said that they want to aviod the issue of colour clashes. You are assuming and guessing that they are lying. Do you make a habit of deliberatley not believeing what you are told? Your credibility is in tatters, because you are deliberatley not believing the AFL, and then you pass of your "guesses" and "assumptions" as a fact.
That's your opinion Dan. If anyone round here suffers a credibility problem Dan it's the AFL. They told us there would be no sellouts at colonial. Did they tell the truth then Dan? Or was that a convenient lie to suck the public into accepting a situation knowing full well by the time the truth came out it would be TOO LATE to do anything about it. I believe that this is issue is no different to Colonial and I have yet to be provided with any evidence to the contrary.
That doesn't prove it, you dill :rolleyes:
Past behaviour IS an indication of an organisations character Dan. Ask any lawyer. And go shove your damn rolleyes where the son doesn't shine "dill".
Wrong. AFL Members were asked to vote. I know this because I received a voting form. Most members elected to have reserved seats for the Grand Final for a small cost. (I voted for first in, first served by the way)
I suppose you are going to "assume" that they rigged the results now?
You are the only AFL memer I know of who even received a survey, and I've spoken to plenty in the last three years. No one I've spoken to was in favour of it so how it get through Dan? If they publish the survey results as well as how many people were asked then I'll believe it, not before. I was also told in a letter that the $30 charge was to cover the wages of the additional staff required on the day. 3/4 of a million dollars in wages for one day? *snort* Bull****! Of course, money couldn't have been a otivating factor, could it, Dan?
They asked Freo to come up with a marketable desing so that they could sell it. Duh! Do you think if Freo weren't given this ultimatum, that they would have come up with a boring, non-financial design?
We'll never know will we, but I doubt they'd have come up with the abortion they're wearing now. A jumper's purpose is not to make as much money for the marketing boys as possible!
And I never said jumper clashes were the leagues number one concern. But they are a concern, nevertheless.
And one that I don't accept is bad enough to warrant them mandating clubs change their strips. Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone else can have a different opinion than you?
And how will it affect the football club? How will it be bad for the game?
Did you read any of my reply Dan? Any of it? Do you understand the concept of identity? That once you start down a path, to coin a phrase "forever will it consume your destiny"? Do you comprehend the fact that once we start compromising the little things it's not that much of a jump to compromise the big ones? You've proved it using the move from Windy Hill to justify this one. How long would it be after we change our jumper before it's used to justify something else, lets say changing the clubs name for a game for a sponsor. After all, it'd only be for one or two games :rolleyes: Hey I could used to these :rolleyes:
You also say that the AFL could make us wear the new design 11 times. :rolleyes: This is the most stupid comment of all. IF you are right and the AFL were doing it solely for the money, how would they benefit if we wear it 11 times instead of two? How?
5.5 times the exposure blockhead. And on national tv too when we play interstate. Exposure = money. Ask any marketing guru.
It IS a valid comparison. We stopped the 70 year tradition of playing there. How are we worse off? How are YOU worse off? HOW IS THE SPORT WORSE OFF?
We are worse off because I can't take my son there to watch them play. That's BAD Dan. BAD. Not becuase we've lost premiership points, not because we've lost money, but because he'll never be able to say "I saw Essendon play at Windy Hill". Now maybe that's not materialistic enough for you Dan but IMO it's bad. Football is about emotion, not logic, not materialistic thins Dan. I can't quantify what it is about the EFC that makes me love as I do, it's a combination of many, many things, and, similar to the love I have for my wife, at times far from logical. Windy Hill on a frezing day pissing down with rain. The first GF I saw. The first game I took my son too at Waverley (yes he's 2 but he's been!!!). The days in the outer at WH with Dad. In the stands with Mum & my sister. That's something I'll never have with him, and to me that's BAD. Emotional? You bet? You got a problem with that? Too bad! When we change our jumper we start down a path that is about discarding our heritage in the pursuit of a dollar, becauase Dan, as much as you refuse to accept it, that is what I believe this push by the AFL is all about.
Change too much about a football club and you change the magical qualities that keep so many of us spellbound by it's charms. I tried to explain that to you in my last post but it seems that you either ignored it or didn't understand it, but perhaps one day you'll come to realise that emotion is what ties us to our clubs. Not logic. Not money. Not "things". Emotion.
I've now said all I'm going to say on this Dan. You're just going to have to accept that
a) I don't agree with you on this
b) Neither you nor anybody else will change my mind about it
c) You are wrong :D :D :p :p :D :D
d) Wally is not a worthless supporter
Dave,
I guarantee I received a from from the AFL membership department in 1997. I recall them giving a letter to all AFL members some months later telling us the results of the survey. Not all AFL members were surveyed. Just a percentage which was supposed to reflect the population of AFL members.
I have no doubt the survey was legit. The AFL worded the survey carefully to ensure that most members would vote, "yes."
You also say that if we wear the "new" jumper 11 times, it would mean 5.5 times the exposure. This would NOT increase sales. We only need to wear it twice for it to have an impact. All Bomber fans would know the jumper exists once we wear it for the first time. I'll give you an example:
Manchester United. I told you about the ManU example before, but you ignored it. They have an alternate jumper, but they ONLY wear it for certain away games where there is a clash. THEY DON'T WEAR IT FOR EVERY AWAY GAME.Now, soccer is the biggest "money-making " sport in the world. Yet, despite this ManU only wear their alternate jumper when the HAVE to. They don't wear it for all away games.....only for a few games (eg agaisnt Arsenal, Liverpool etc)
The fact that they wear the alternate jumper for a handful of games only ensures that it will sell. They don't need to wear it for all 19 away games for it to sell. They only need to wear it a couple of times for peopel to be awarre of its prescense. They wear their traditional red jumper for all games where it is possible to do so. They ONLY wear the alternate design when there is a colour clash. And this is in the money-hungriest sport in the world!!
You really need to stop being so cynical. the AFL wouldn't gain a thing from making us wear it 11 times, as opposed to twice.
Then - unbelievably - you start talking about how a jumper change for two games a year will lead us down the "dark path" from which we will never return. :rolleyes: Oh, for God's sake, stop assuming and guessing. All that is being propsed is that we will wear our new RED AND BLACKjumper for a couple of games a year only. All other times we will be in our normal strip. Stop giving us all hypothetical scenarios of how it is the first step down the path of evil.
Stop assuming, and gussing that we will head down the "evil" path. Please, Dave...... I'm tired of hearing about what is going to happen if this gahstly change occurs. Stop beng so cynical.
You've already heard CJH's acount of how it is difficult when two teams wear the same colours. Alternate jumpers are simply a form of common-sense. I'm sorry you don't see that.
gPhonque
28 Jun 2001, 00:34
originally posted by Dan
Alternate jumpers are simply a form of common-sense. I'm sorry you
don't see that.
As is keeping 125 years of tradition intact.
And i'm sorry for you that you can't see that.
And you don't have to reply if you don't want.
I'll see you in another thread.
Geez, Dave and whoever else are struggling with concepts here!
Essendon DONT WANT TO CHANGE - forget about tradition, our jumper, our identity, it makes NO DIFFERENCE here because THE ESSENDON FOOTBALL CLUB DOES NOT WANT TO CHANGE!!! Tradition is a useless point because its not the clubs decision to change.
The AFL is FORCING us to change, therefore the arguments must come by looking at this as an AFL ISSUE.
Why is the AFL FORCING the change? Because of jumper clashes, obviously.
Now, it seems dave doesnt have a problem with clashes, his eye sight is perfect, actually he sees better than most people apparently. However, mere mortals such as Wayne Carey and Mick Malthouse (and numerous others, but these are the higher profile - Mick went so far to have copped a fine for it - thats how strongly he feels about it) have publicly come out stating that there is a problem, and it can be confusing out on the ground.
Now the AFL, if doing its job correctly, must at least address this issue as many in the game have stated there is a problem. Its a shame that not everyone was blessed with great eyesight such as Dave, however we must do the best we can with what God gave us!
To everyone who has played here - many times in a game you dont get a chance to look at players directly, when forced to do something. You must use a thing called peripheral vision. Better players use this a lot more than others, and obviously if two jumpers are similar you have little chance in making a split second decision on which jumper the guy is wearing.
It HAS happened already in the AFL where players have commented on being confused as to the jumpers.
It is such as obvious problem (I reckon its a blight on the game) that something has to be done. Yea, there will be people who always look for the bad in situations and will suggest the AFL has an alterior motive, but its not the case.
And if anybody thinks this is a new issue they havnt been around footy very long.
Dave dismissed a post regarding Richmond for the reason than Essendon doesnt share the same attributes in our history etc. That is already one fundamental problem here - the AFL cant and shouldnt single out clubs when making a decision, it must make a stand for the WHOLE comp. Forget about Essendon, think of the competition.
Gee, reading some of these posts you would think the AFL is doing this ONLY to get under Essendon's skin. Essendon is being FORCED to change - our tradition will be slighly altered by no fault of the club, it is a forced change - something out of our power. Forget about Essendon. Remember, we are just 1 of 16 clubs in the AFL. We are nobody special!
If anyone disagrees with the AFL its because they dont see a problem with clashes, and believe this is an AFL marketing ploy. Forget tradition and whatever else because the vast majority of the AFL dont regard jumpers as highly as us, and even if some think we arnt, we are just a member of the 16 AFL clubs. The AFL can hardly treat any club with more preference than the others. In the eyes of the AFL the competition has spoken - over 80% (at worst) are happy to change. In any democrasy, thats enough.
I can see this post lasting forever!
I've posted my opinion once...maybe twice...and i am not doing it again!!:o
Hey Dan, maybe you should change your Avatar to this.
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/Wally_Web/sash.gif
Originally posted by M29
Hey Dan, maybe you should change your Avatar to this.
http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/Wally_Web/sash.gif
Yes Andrew...extremely tasteful!!! LOL
Originally posted by Smokin
Forget about Essendon. Remember, we are just 1 of 16 clubs in the AFL. We are nobody special!
I wasn't going to post again on this topic until I saw this. Forget Essendon? We are nobody special? Why don't we all just go barack for someone else then? Those two statements would have to rank as the biggest load of horse**** I've ever read.
And that's my final word on this issue.
Originally posted by Dave
I wasn't going to post again on this topic until I saw this. Forget Essendon? We are nobody special? Why don't we all just go barack for someone else then? Those two statements would have to rank as the biggest load of horse**** I've ever read.
And that's my final word on this issue.
Oh my God, Dave you would have to be one of the dumbest...
READ my post please. From an AFL PERSPECTIVE (not from an Essendon FANS perspective as I have tried to get across to you a number of times) we are simply ONE of the 16 clubs. NO CLUB should be treated with priority, weather it be Us, Carlton, Adelaide,Brisbane or Whoever else!
Forget it, you argue like my kid cousin!
I honestly am bewildered as to your lack of intelligence!
Dan, why do I get the feeling we are arguing with idiots?? (or at least some around here are!)
If you think the AFL should treat Essendon other than just one of 16 clubs you have the intilligence of a pea!!