View Full Version : My Predicted Pre-season trade
This can be found on main board but id like to see peoples opinions on this
My predicted trade involving the crows, tigers and eagles
Eagles Send:
Callum Chambers (To Rich)
Chad Morrison (to Rich)
Next years 3st round pick (to Rich)
This years 2nd pick (To Rich
Adelaide send:
Tyson Stenglein (to WCE)
Brett Reily (to Rich)
2nd and 3rd round picks this year to Richmond
Richmond Send:
Brad Ottens (to Adelaide)
Ty Zantuck (to WCE)
---------------------------------------------
Eagles Recieve
Stenglein and Zantuck
for
Callum Chambers (To Rich)
Chad Morrison (to Rich)
Next years 3rd round pick (to Rich)
This years 2nd round pick (To Rich)
Crows recieve
Brad Ottens
for
Tyson Stenglein (to WCE)
Brett Reily (to Rich)
2nd and 3rd round picks this year to Richmond
Tigers recieve
Callum Chambers
Chad Morrison
Picks this year---- 2nd and 3rd round picks ( Crows) , 2nd round pick (eagles)
Picks next year--- 3rd round (eagles)
Brett Reilly
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reasons Why!
Eagles: Need a shutting down midfielder such as Stenglein and it has been widely rumored Stenglein wants a trade to WA. Zantuck will also add a bit more grunt to eagles lineup, something they have been lacking of late
Adelaide: Gain a superstar who has underachieved, who wants to return home and who needs a change of club and culture. I think both Ottens and Adelaide would blossom if this trade went through
Richmond: They need an influx of new blood, they arent getting anywhere at the moment and a huge chop and change would be great for the club. Bringing in Victorian pair Of Morrison and Chambers would be a start with Chad a solid HBF and Chambers a classy winger who is buried with the eagles. Reilly is a top 10 draft pick who has underachieved and another player who needs a new home.
People, what are your thoughts?
franky_mojojo
23 Jun 2004, 21:51
i really don't rate Zantuck. It would be more likely we would get gaspar but hes past his best as well. I don't wont to see us trade for old crappy players (remember Judge) Sierakowski, merenda, carroll etc.
and how do you trade next years draft pick without knowing what it is? Wouldn't like us to get rid of more than 1 draft pick without gaining other picks elsewere.
Yeah i was tempted to put in Zantuck could either up being a player like Pettifer, Gaspar or Newman, someone of that calibre.
wrennyboy
23 Jun 2004, 22:17
Adelaide: Gain a superstar who has underachieved, who wants to return home and who needs a change of club and culture. I think both Ottens and Adelaide would blossom if this trade went through
Not true at all mate. Ottens has richmond blood in him and he wants to follow in the footsteps of mark coughlan and be in a better future for the club. Also pettifer and newman love the club but you can have zantuck and gasper.
coasting
23 Jun 2004, 22:21
YOU CAN'T TRADE FUTURE DRAFT PICKS
Black Thunder
24 Jun 2004, 13:17
ummmmmm
1) can't trade future picks.
2) Richmond lose Brad Ottens. but get 3 players and 4 draft picks in exchange. hmmmmmmm, yes that's sounds like a fair trade.
3) we lose 2 players, 2 draft picks, and get 2 average players.
that would be a disastrous trade for us.
franky_mojojo
24 Jun 2004, 13:49
this is just a rough trade, haven't really thought it through
WC
Morrison - to Richmond
Johnson - to Richmond
Adel
Stenglein - to Adelaide
Burton - to Richmond
Richmond
Ottens - Adelaide
Gaspar - West Coast
2nd round pick - to Adelaide
Streaker
24 Jun 2004, 14:01
Originally posted by franky_mojojo
this is just a rough trade, haven't really thought it through
WC
Morrison - to Richmond
Johnson - to Richmond
Adel
Stenglein - to Adelaide
Burton - to Richmond
Richmond
Ottens - Adelaide
Gaspar - West Coast
2nd round pick - to Adelaide
Stenglein gets traded from Adelaide to Adelaide. They would be killing themselves to do that trade:rolleyes:
Black Thunder
24 Jun 2004, 14:19
Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Stenglein gets traded from Adelaide to Adelaide. They would be killing themselves to do that trade:rolleyes:
presume typo, should be Steinglein to WCE i'm assuming.
That's a little more reasonable than the original trade, but as i've said if we're gonna trade we need to go for the big trade. no use beating around the bush trading fringe players for fringe players.
Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Stenglein gets traded from Adelaide to Adelaide. They would be killing themselves to do that trade:rolleyes:
Might be the change he needs - fresh start :D
daddy_4_eyes
24 Jun 2004, 14:35
We essentially need three things:
1) An accountable midfielder - Stenglein and Carr should be the main targets here. Both quality players.
2) Tall forward - Of course, depending on how Hansen, McDougall, Gaspar and Staker go for the rest of the year. If 3 of the 4 really show promise, we might not be that desperate a tall forward.
3) Quality back pocket. Not sure any of our current players fit that mould. We're desperate enough to be sticking Kerr there at times.
What we don't need:
1) Fringe players. We have enough of those, plus youth coming through that could probably fit that classification
2) Players with "potential". Might as well go through the draft if we're gonna head this way. This includes all these tall kids who have done diddly squat, but have been on an AFL list for 2-3yrs and people assume they have talent
3) Medium sized flankers who don't really have a position on the ground and so are classified as "utilities"
Take into consideration
1) Players like Morrison, Chambers, Humm, Adkins, Johnson, Munro, etc have LITTLE trade value. Look at it this way, if these guys were playing for another team, what would you expect that eagles to trade for them?
2) Superstars are rarely traded, particularly to WA.
3) Just because someone originates from WA doesn't mean they are homesick. Get over that fixation guys!
Taking that into account, there'd only be a handful of players I as a supporter would like the eagles to target, and even less that would realistically be a chance of playing for us. There's a good reason why the eagles have never traded aggressively, and its got nothing to do with a tight a.rsed coaching team.
bunsen burner
24 Jun 2004, 14:37
The hard thing about trading is if you want to pick up a top line player you have to pay through the nose. Then you might trade for a player who has a good year or two and then ends up a dud due to injuries or otherwise. So if you trade for a player you're speculating will be good, there are no guarantees.
If we can get Zantuck cheap, I'd be happy. At worst he'll be better than Carroll, at best be could be a solid and reliable 3rd tall defender. The guy did bag five goals once in a match so does have ability.
Ottens is debateable. i suspect he'll be too expensive. Has talent, but lacks consisyency.
Thomson is in the same boat. Probably just another Nick Holland.
I've seen enough of Polak to be quite sure he'll be a star. I'd be willing to give up our first pick and Wirra to get him or the 1st draft pick - assuming he is available.
Originally posted by bunsen burner
If we can get Zantuck cheap, I'd be happy. At worst he'll be better than Carroll, at best be could be a solid and reliable 3rd tall defender. The guy did bag five goals once in a match so does have ability.
I'd have Zantuck cheap as well. No worse than Carroll and has an extra 4 years in him.
Streaker
24 Jun 2004, 14:53
Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
We essentially need three things:
1) An accountable midfielder - Stenglein and Carr should be the main targets here. Both quality players.
2) Tall forward - Of course, depending on how Hansen, McDougall, Gaspar and Staker go for the rest of the year. If 3 of the 4 really show promise, we might not be that desperate a tall forward.
3) Quality back pocket. Not sure any of our current players fit that mould. We're desperate enough to be sticking Kerr there at times.
1)I disagree that we need an accountable midfielder as I think Selwood, Waters, Butler could develop into this role and I also think that the midfielders we have just need to tighten up a little.
2) Even if all our KPPs show promise, the fact remains that talls take time to develop. We need to be looking at drafting our KPPs for the future now, rather than waiting until a few years before the others are due to retire like Jako and McIntosh.
3) Yes we definitely need a quality back pocket. Maybe Morton could fit into quite nicely here.
Other than that I agree with you 100%.
bunsen burner
24 Jun 2004, 14:58
Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
We essentially need three things:
1) An accountable midfielder - Stenglein and Carr should be the main targets here. Both quality players.
2) Tall forward - Of course, depending on how Hansen, McDougall, Gaspar and Staker go for the rest of the year. If 3 of the 4 really show promise, we might not be that desperate a tall forward.
3) Quality back pocket. Not sure any of our current players fit that mould. We're desperate enough to be sticking Kerr there at times.
I'm not convinced on 1 and 3. At the moment it appears we need an accountable midfielder, but I think there's a better way around it - find/develop KPP who can win contests. With confidence and a strong spine our midfield has the potential to be the next brisbane. With that sort of midfield, you seldom use taggers. We also have Selwood who can be developed for the role.
I don't know why Woosha has put Kerr in the back pocket - maybe to try to teach him some accountability. We are too heavy on midfielders which means a Nicoski or Chick should be given the role.
I think we should only be looking for KPPs. In the back half we need three tall defenders, 2 of which will need to be A class. Glass looks solid, but Lynch is iffy and Carroll needs to be replaced if we are to develop into flag contention. In the forward half we also need three talls. Gasper has injury problems, McDougall and Hansen have potential, whilst Staker should develop into a good 3rd tall option. It remains to be seen who out of Gardiner, Cox, and Seaby will be able to take a KPP.
So we have a lot of potential, but converting this into a spine similar to Lynch, Brown, Leppitsch, and Michael is not easy. But if we had a spine nearly as good as that, combined with our midfield, confidence would be high. The players who player the fringe positions would most likely fall in place. A specialist tagger wouldn't be so necessary, and let's face it, they aren't hard to develop.
I would be quite happy if the only player we traded for was Polak, but wouldn't be too upset if we swapped some of our duds for other team's duds.
The first, and probably least respected rule of trades is that players can not be added up- whilst Callum Chambers, Chad Morrison and Jeremy Humm would probably beat 1 Michael Voss if it was 3 against 1 in a training drill, 3 hacks does not equal one good player on the trading table, even when trading with Richmond. If they were willing to trade Ottens for Callum Chambers and Chad Morrison, I'd be tempted to cut Adelaide out of the deal and just pick up a decent looking FF for effectively nothing.
Realistically, though, to get Stenglein (and in the absence of Polak walking out he should definitely our first target) we're going to need to trade quality to get quality.
The people who I would class as likely tradeables and with some value are - Fletcher (decent value), Wirrpunda (decent value), Johnson (potential), Chambers (very limited value) Morrison (ditto) and our first, second and third round picks. Obviously we wouldn't ship out the lot, but if we're going to trade that's probably where our bargaining power will come from.
I would be prepared to part with Wirrpunda and a 2nd rounder to get Stenglein, or Morrison and a 1st rounder, Stenglein would be worth more than that to us.
It does seem as though Richmond trading ottens would be the key to getting any deal with Adelaide done, but if they were prepared to trade the big fella and find some other way of getting Stenglein, I'd be very tempted to try and get both players.
Morrison + Johnson + first round pick to Richmond.
Ottens to West Coast
Wirrpunda + Second round pick to Hawthorn.
Hawthorn's Pick 2 overall to Adelaide.
Stenglein to West Coast.
That would mortgage our future heavily by getting rid of any draftees for this year, but given that Stenglein and Ottens are both young it'd still be looking to the future somewhat and could probably bring us instant success. A defensive midfielder + a quality tall forward would be a huge fillip for the club.
Having said that, if we just traded for Stenglein, I'd be satisfied with the off season.
wrennyboy
24 Jun 2004, 17:13
Guys just wanna say that Ottens loves the club and if he does leave we dont want guys like burton, morrison or chambers. We will be looking for first round draft picks or quality YOUNG players.
Originally posted by wrennyboy
Guys just wanna say that Ottens loves the club and if he does leave we dont want guys like burton, morrison or chambers. We will be looking for first round draft picks or quality YOUNG players.
Next time you see Brad say hi from me.
Cheers.
Id love to go after Stenglien but Im not prepared to give up Fletcher or Wirrpunda in any trades. I know you have to give up quality to recieve quality but Wirrpunda is a lifer and Fletcher is part of our extremely good midfield.
The club is apparently going to be really aggressive with trades in the coming off season but Ive never liked trading and WC has never been big on the trading front either, and we have usually gone alright without trades.
Oh and I dont like giving up draft picks. Kerr and Judd arrived via draft pick, they are 2 of our best 5 players. Giving up draft picks IMO is a cardinal sin!
Originally posted by jod23
Id love to go after Stenglien but Im not prepared to give up Fletcher or Wirrpunda in any trades. I know you have to give up quality to recieve quality but Wirrpunda is a lifer and Fletcher is part of our extremely good midfield.
The club is apparently going to be really aggressive with trades in the coming off season but Ive never liked trading and WC has never been big on the trading front either, and we have usually gone alright without trades.
Oh and I dont like giving up draft picks. Kerr and Judd arrived via draft pick, they are 2 of our best 5 players. Giving up draft picks IMO is a cardinal sin!
As a general rule I agree with all that, but Stenglein would be worth far more to our team than Wirrpunda or Fletcher. He's a decent sized, top class tagger who can find the pill, is still young and has leadership material written all over him. He's capable of restricting midfielders of the Cousins/Buckley/Bell mold, which is something we sorely lack at the moment. Basically, if we lost Wirrpunda and gained Stenglein, we'd have shipped out a talented, underachieving player who is still really in search of a position for a class, consistent performer who would plug by far the biggest deficiency in our team at the moment. If we got Stenglein for Wirrpunda, (most likely through a 3 way deal) I would be ecstatic.
coasting
25 Jun 2004, 14:41
Stenglein isn't better than Wirrapunda. He is more disciplined and consistent but less talented. Having said that, I think our coaching staff have just about given up hope of getting the best out of Wirra so maybe a 3-way trade could be on the cards.
Streaker
25 Jun 2004, 14:42
How did Stenglein go in his last game?
Consistent????
DirtyDogTiger
25 Jun 2004, 21:23
Slobber ...KERR...drool
same for Judd and Gardiner,
it might be easier if I just barrack for WCE.
Originally posted by Mead
As a general rule I agree with all that, but Stenglein would be worth far more to our team than Wirrpunda or Fletcher. He's a decent sized, top class tagger who can find the pill, is still young and has leadership material written all over him. He's capable of restricting midfielders of the Cousins/Buckley/Bell mold, which is something we sorely lack at the moment. Basically, if we lost Wirrpunda and gained Stenglein, we'd have shipped out a talented, underachieving player who is still really in search of a position for a class, consistent performer who would plug by far the biggest deficiency in our team at the moment. If we got Stenglein for Wirrpunda, (most likely through a 3 way deal) I would be ecstatic.
You would be ecstatic at losing Wirrpunda?
I regard Wirra in the same boat as guys like McKenna, Jakovich, Matera, Kemp, Lewis and now Cousins. He IS a West Coast Eagle and to be anything else is just silly. I dont want to leave. Fletcher for Stenglien I could handle....but not Wirra.
Mark Viduka
27 Jun 2004, 02:51
Originally posted by jod23
You would be ecstatic at losing Wirrpunda?
I regard Wirra in the same boat as guys like McKenna, Jakovich, Matera, Kemp, Lewis and now Cousins. He IS a West Coast Eagle and to be anything else is just silly. I dont want to leave. Fletcher for Stenglien I could handle....but not Wirra.
I regard Wirra as someone with talent who has never really been able to deliver in his career. He has had some good spurts in form... but really... how many times has Wirrapunda finished in the top 5 best and fairest at West Coast? Not too many if ever at all. He is injury prone and is on his way out. Mitchell White was a class player as well but injuries tore him down and we did the right thing trading him. Trading Wirra will be right.
Originally posted by jod23
You would be ecstatic at losing Wirrpunda?
I regard Wirra in the same boat as guys like McKenna, Jakovich, Matera, Kemp, Lewis and now Cousins. He IS a West Coast Eagle and to be anything else is just silly. I dont want to leave. Fletcher for Stenglien I could handle....but not Wirra.
If, just for arguments sake, we lost Wirrpunda for Stenglein in a straight swap, yes I would be ecstatic. Reason being we'd be taking a player who we have to hunt for a place in our 22 for, and replacing him with somebody who plugs the single biggest hole in our lineup at the moment.
I've got a lot of time for Wirra as a player and a person, but right now his career is at the crossroads, and I think Woosh recognises that. As a free running, creative or in and under midfielder he's not as good as Judd or Cousins or Kerr, and at the moment he doesn't have the aerobic tank of the 'lesser' midfielders like Embley or Fletcher. So he's out of the starting 18 in that regard.
In the backline, he struggles in one on one matchups. Yes, he is outstanding in the mop-up, run off the hbf type mold, but it seems that the club has placed their bets on Nicoski in that role, and I think in a years time Wirra is going to struggle to justify selection- the backline can't really support two loose creative players at the same time.
So, basically, that leaves the third alternative, the HFF. There's some prospect of him playing there, but only if he can prove himself on a consistent basis. And I think atm its more a case of the team finding a place for Wirrpunda than Wirrpunda being of huge value to the team. Stenglein, on the other hand is what we need. He'd give us an all purpose tagger which is basically what we desperately need at the moment.
Without a doubt Wirra has more talent in his little finger than a lot of 'good average' AFL players have in their whole bodies, but really, how long do we wait to see it? Putting him in the same class as the McKenna, Jako, Matera, Kemp or Cousins is insane- put simply, to date he has achieved diddly squat in his career, whereas all of the above's credentials speak for themselves.
Wirrpunda went into this season injury free, with his first ever full pre season and with a chance to impress in every regard. The preseason press was full of stories about how fit he was, how much weight he'd lost, etc etc etc. The reality is he hasn't done a huge amount to back that up. I don't have anything against Wirra, but that's just the way it is- he's gotten over the injury probs which have dogged him in the past, he has no possible excuse for not performing, and if he can't produce now, then you'd have to question whether he ever will.
He's got 9 weeks to prove himself to the club, and if he doesn't, then without a doubt he'll be our prime trade bait heading into the off season.
jess-jess
27 Jun 2004, 03:37
Originally posted by jod23
Fletcher for Stenglien I could handle....but not Wirra.
isn't part of the reason Stenglien's interested in coming to west coast the fact that he grew up playing footy with Fletch and that they're good mates? Kinda defeat the purpose if you traded them for each other
i love wirra too and would hate to ever see him in another jumper, .......but if he doesn't find some form he could be in a bit of trouble.
franky_mojojo
27 Jun 2004, 09:30
Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
We essentially need three things:
1) An accountable midfielder - Stenglein and Carr should be the main targets here. Both quality players.
2) Tall forward - Of course, depending on how Hansen, McDougall, Gaspar and Staker go for the rest of the year. If 3 of the 4 really show promise, we might not be that desperate a tall forward.
3) Quality back pocket. Not sure any of our current players fit that mould. We're desperate enough to be sticking Kerr there at times.
Take into consideration
1) Players like Morrison, Chambers, Humm, Adkins, Johnson, Munro, etc have LITTLE trade value. Look at it this way, if these guys were playing for another team, what would you expect that eagles to trade for them?
I think that if we are going to be a premiership threat that we need at least 1 key defender. I lake Glass as a player, but Lynch is too slow to pick up the quicker, more agile CHF's and Carroll and Hunter aren't up to the third tall job IMO. This is more of a problem than our defencive midfield. Selwood or someone could easily become this player.
I think we have enough KPP forwards so trading for one would be a waste and would slow the development of at least one of our KPP forwards.
I agree with us nedding a quality BP, but only if we can get one cheaply, we have Waters, Jones who are develping and Chick can play there now and what happened to Collica.
I know Morrison, Chambers, Humm, Adkins, Johnson, Munro, etc have LITTLE trade value, but if they are not in our best lineup we should trade them to other clubs for their fringe players its a gamble,but we aren't really losing anything but we could be gaining something.
Geez I never thought I would see WC supporters turn so quickly on one of their own. You lot have turned quicker on Wirra than on Jakovich and thats saying something.
bunsen burner
27 Jun 2004, 23:37
Originally posted by jod23
Geez I never thought I would see WC supporters turn so quickly on one of their own. You lot have turned quicker on Wirra than on Jakovich and thats saying something. It's not a question of turning, it's a matter of having an unbiased look at our squad and determining what type of players we need, what type of players we could get by without, and which of these players will have enough trade value.
Decisions in football aren't easy. No point in wanting to get rid of duds and expect champs in return, and no point in having baised views on favourite players. Wirra has always been a favourite of mine, but if a deal can be done to get a good player......
coasting
27 Jun 2004, 23:40
I agree with Jod. You people are pathetic, especially Mark Viduka. To compare him with Mitchell White when he left the Eagles is a joke. Are you people even real Eagles supporters? Maybe you somehow missed all the blood, sweat and tears he has put into the club from the age of 16. Sure, he never really turned into the player we thought he would but thats no reason to turn on him when he finally has a poor season. And just because he has never got in the top 5 in the best and fairest doesn't mean squat if you have been constantly injured. Did you call for Jako to be traded when he had a bad season? Will you call for Chris Judd to be traded when he has a bad season? Find some loyalty, grow some balls or f*^& off to another club.
bunsen burner
28 Jun 2004, 00:13
Originally posted by coasting
You people are pathetic, especially Mark Viduka. What are you on? Are people not allowed to have a different opinion? Are people not allowed to want a player to be traded in hope of filling a deficiency?
Are you people even real Eagles supporters? You're obviously of the persuasion that thou shalt not want to have any Eagle player traded at any time.
Maybe you somehow missed all the blood, sweat and tears he has put into the club from the age of 16. Since when has loyalty had anything to do with football?
ps I've followed the club since its inception. What about you?
Sure, he never really turned into the player we thought he would but thats no reason to turn on him when he finally has a poor season. Not everyone has turned on him - some think he has trade value and can help bring a more needed player to the club.
Is there anyone of any value who you would trade?
Find some loyalty, grow some balls or f*^& off to another club. What's loyalty got to do with it? Loyalty in football is for people who don't know anything about football. Why should every supporter never want a good player to be traded? You're asking people to be blindly an unconditionally loyal to the club and all its players. hardly the thoughts of an intelligent supporter.
You should be really embarassed at this post.
jess-jess
28 Jun 2004, 00:23
Originally posted by coasting
I agree with Jod. You people are pathetic, especially Mark Viduka. To compare him with Mitchell White when he left the Eagles is a joke. Are you people even real Eagles supporters? Maybe you somehow missed all the blood, sweat and tears he has put into the club from the age of 16. Sure, he never really turned into the player we thought he would but thats no reason to turn on him when he finally has a poor season. And just because he has never got in the top 5 in the best and fairest doesn't mean squat if you have been constantly injured. Did you call for Jako to be traded when he had a bad season? Will you call for Chris Judd to be traded when he has a bad season? Find some loyalty, grow some balls or f*^& off to another club.
I love Wirra. He is the player i have the most respect for at the club. I as much as anyone else want him to get out of this form slump and play with the brilliance that we all know he can. As i've said before, i would hate to see him in another jumper and would love him to be an eagle for life.
However, i did say that i thought he could be in a bit of trouble if he doesn't find some from. Stepping back and taking all the emotion out of it, i think that his name may well be one the club tosses around at trade time. He's one of the few players of value that we have that the club may be prepared to trade to try to get a quality KPP or tagger or whatever else they have in mind to the club. That's not being unloyal to Wirra, that's just me stepping back and assessing the situation.
In saying that, the players and the people around the club have massive respect for Wirra and they all love him, as do most of the supporters. i think if you did a poll of everyone's top five favourite eagles, Wirra would be present in most of them.
He's contracted till 2005 and hopefully he'll see it out and only ever play for the mighty blue and gold. But, it's the club's duty to do what they think will be best for the future of the team and if that means they make the decision to trade Wirra (and no way would it be an easy decision), taking off my blue and gold tinted glasses, i could see the reasoning behind it.
Black JuJu
28 Jun 2004, 00:26
Originally posted by coasting
I agree with Jod. You people are pathetic, especially Mark Viduka. To compare him with Mitchell White when he left the Eagles is a joke. Are you people even real Eagles supporters? Maybe you somehow missed all the blood, sweat and tears he has put into the club from the age of 16. Sure, he never really turned into the player we thought he would but thats no reason to turn on him when he finally has a poor season. And just because he has never got in the top 5 in the best and fairest doesn't mean squat if you have been constantly injured. Did you call for Jako to be traded when he had a bad season? Will you call for Chris Judd to be traded when he has a bad season? Find some loyalty, grow some balls or f*^& off to another club.
My golly this hits a nerve doesn't it?
How is Mark Viduka wrong about Mitchell White? White had played more footy for this club than Wirra, had been an All-Australian, a premiership player and an all round nice guy but when his form dropped he was traded while we could still get something for him, it was smart, it was football business.
I know he is a popular figure but since when was David Wirrpunda a consistently performing, untradable champion player? To me, he's a inconsistent, unreliable defender who's had his fair share of injuries and has yet to play a top to bottom excellent season despite being given years to develop. He's a senior player, as we take stock of the excellent careers of fellow 1996 debutants Cousins and Matera and pretty much write-off Chad Morrison's career, we continue to wait for Wirrpunda to at least be a consistent player.
Face it, if we had a tradable player it's him. He's 26 next season and would still be attractive to some clubs in the league due to the simple fact that he IS high on talent and might just play consistently good footy given the right circumstances.
Originally posted by Black JuJu
My golly this hits a nerve doesn't it?
How is Mark Viduka wrong about Mitchell White? White had played more footy for this club than Wirra, had been an All-Australian, a premiership player and an all round nice guy but when his form dropped he was traded while we could still get something for him, it was smart, it was football business.
I know he is a popular figure but since when was David Wirrpunda a consistently performing, untradable champion player? To me, he's a inconsistent, unreliable defender who's had his fair share of injuries and has yet to play a top to bottom excellent season despite being given years to develop. He's a senior player, as we take stock of the excellent careers of fellow 1996 debutants Cousins and Matera and pretty much write-off Chad Morrison's career, we continue to wait for Wirrpunda to at least be a consistent player.
Face it, if we had a tradable player it's him. He's 26 next season and would still be attractive to some clubs in the league due to the simple fact that he IS high on talent and might just play consistently good footy given the right circumstances.
Agree with all that.
Wirrpunda has a.) high trade value. b.) and relatively limited value to our side at the moment. I don't think anyone can disagree with those two statements.
I don't have anything against Wirra, but the reality is that he is not a critical member of our team, and would be of great value to other sides. That's not being disloyal, thats just realism, its something that is pretty clearly in Worsfold's mind given some of the comments he made re Wirra earlier this year. The reality is, despite being highly rated and playing the occasional blinder, Wirrpunda has never really put it on the board consistently. There is certainly no way he is in the category of Cousins or Jakovich or even Judd- those guys have all performed on a consistent basis for several seasons in a row, and thus earned the loyalty of the club- last time I checked, wirra hasn't really done that to date.
Its not about jumping up and down and saying trade wirra, its just a simple recognition that for the first time in his career, this year he has been injury free, has had nothing really stopping him from performing and is still yet to grab a spot in our 22 and make it his own. He's got nine weeks to do that, otherwise he'll probably be the prime person we look at if we're going to trade as aggressively as Nisbett has made out.
coasting
28 Jun 2004, 01:27
Originally posted by Black JuJu
How is Mark Viduka wrong about Mitchell White? *snip*
Tell me again, what did we get for Mitchell White? He was finished when he left the Eagles. Unlike Wirra, he was never going to do anything to embarrass the club's decision to let him go. Mitchell White was traded because he had a falling out with Ken Judge. He was an AA and club premiership player for us. He should have played one or two more years and retired. He should never have been traded, it didn't achieve anything. Trading Jason Ball and Fraser Gehrig didn't achieve anything either.
If you think trading Wirrapunda is going to solve all our problems you are kidding yourself. Clubs aren't stupid, they know he is injury prone and inconsistent. Trading him for a 17yo recruit makes no sense if Trent Carroll can get a game. The very best we could hope for is another injury prone and inconsistent player so what does that really achieve? If we trade him away, you can't blame other recruits for thinking the club has no loyalty. It is disloyal because Wirra could have left long ago but he chose to stay time and time again despite big offers to go back home. So why stop at Wirra? Where do you draw the line in the sand? If Hawthorn offered us their top two picks for Ben Cousins at the end of the year would you trade him? Why not? We would come out on top.
Black JuJu
28 Jun 2004, 01:48
Originally posted by coasting
Tell me again, what did we get for Mitchell White? He was finished when he left the Eagles. Unlike Wirra, he was never going to do anything to embarrass the club's decision to let him go. Mitchell White was traded because he had a falling out with Ken Judge. He was an AA and club premiership player for us. He should have played one or two more years and retired. He should never have been traded, it didn't achieve anything. Trading Jason Ball and Fraser Gehrig didn't achieve anything either.
If you think trading Wirrapunda is going to solve all our problems you are kidding yourself. Clubs aren't stupid, they know he is injury prone and inconsistent. Trading him for a 17yo recruit makes no sense if Trent Carroll can get a game. The very best we could hope for is another injury prone and inconsistent player so what does that really achieve? If we trade him away, you can't blame other recruits for thinking the club has no loyalty. It is disloyal because Wirra could have left long ago but he chose to stay time and time again despite big offers to go back home. So why stop at Wirra? Where do you draw the line in the sand? If Hawthorn offered us their top two picks for Ben Cousins at the end of the year would you trade him? Why not? We would come out on top.
Your view is pretty clearly blinded by your loyalty to David Wirrpunda rather than the Eagles. Don't compare him to Cousins, he's no club champion, he's done little when stacked up against the real champs we've had, oh and who said it would solve all our problems? Trading Wirra could net us something help towards solving some of our problems.
Trading Fraser Gehrig was nessercary, he was also an under performing so called star at the time (also netted us Daniel Kerr), it needed to be done for the best of both parties. Jason Ball I could have given or taken but he also fits in the 'never as good as expected' category for his time at the Eagles and went on the play some good footy with the Swans when given the chance elsewhere. Mitchell White was traded while we could still get something, while what we got wasn't fantastic, we got something for a player who was struggling to contribute. You are of the opinion we should continue to hold onto Wirrpunda until he becomes a consistent, quality contributor? Keep waiting like the last 9 seasons? 'It's bound to happen eventually!' ? or do we cut our losses and pull a 'Mitchell White' and get something while we can?
Take off those Wirra goggles and face the facts - if his current performances don't lift, he may well be traded at the seasons end in an attempt to bring a consistent contributor into the team.
Black Thunder
28 Jun 2004, 01:55
am i the only person who doesn't consider Stenglein to be "quality"????
bunsen burner
28 Jun 2004, 02:00
Originally posted by coasting
He should never have been traded, it didn't achieve anything. He didn't exactly set the world on fire when he went to Geelong.
Trading Jason Ball and Fraser Gehrig didn't achieve anything either.They both had to go. Apart from Gehrig wanting to go, both weren't going anywhere with the Eagles. Some players need to change clubs to further their careers and find form. It's a shame you don't understand this.
If you think trading Wirrapunda is going to solve all our problems you are kidding yourself. If you think anyone has said this then you are kidding yourself.
Clubs aren't stupid, they know he is injury prone and inconsistent. And fancy you accusing others of being disloyal.
Trading him for a 17yo recruit makes no sense if Trent Carroll can get a game. There are other options.
The very best we could hope for is another injury prone and inconsistent player so what does that really achieve? You're digging a deeper hole for yourself. We could trade well, or we could couple Wirra with a draft pick.
You should quit while your only a mile behind.
If we trade him away, you can't blame other recruits for thinking the club has no loyalty. You're embarassing yourself. As someone has already mentioned, it's not like he's a cousins or Jako, and it's not like players aren't aware that you can get traded.
So why stop at Wirra? Where do you draw the line in the sand? If Hawthorn offered us their top two picks for Ben Cousins at the end of the year would you trade him? Why not? We would come out on top. Are you stupid? The reason why Wirra's name has been put up and not Cousins is a) Cousins is vital to the team, b) Wirra is replaceable, c) We have distinct shortage of quality KPPs/tagger/small BP, and c) Cousins is our captain and franchise player.
Sometimes good players have to be traded. I know it's hard for you to understand such a simple concept, but give it your best shot. If Wirra does get traded, it remains to be seen whether or not it's the right decision, but to rant and rave and accuse others of not being proper supporters for supporting such a trade is a bit rich - especially since it's come from someone who has demonstrated they know FA about football.
bunsen burner
28 Jun 2004, 02:03
Originally posted by Black Thunder
am i the only person who doesn't consider Stenglein to be "quality"???? I think he's pretty good, but would be targeting a KPP way before a defensive midfielder. Defensive midfielders are dime a dozen and can be developed reasonably easy (compared to a KPP). If we get a spine to complement the midfield, the rest will fall into place.
Stenglein is definitely not as good as what the Adelaide supporters think.
coasting
28 Jun 2004, 02:09
Originally posted by Black JuJu
Your view is pretty clearly blinded by your loyalty to David Wirrpunda rather than the Eagles. Don't compare him to Cousins, he's no club champion, he's done little when stacked up against the real champs we've had, oh and who said it would solve all our problems? Trading Wirra could net us something help towards solving some of our problems.
Trading Fraser Gehrig was nessercary, he was also an under performing so called star at the time (also netted us Daniel Kerr), it needed to be done for the best of both parties. Jason Ball I could have given or taken but he also fits in the 'never as good as expected' category for his time at the Eagles and went on the play some good footy with the Swans when given the chance elsewhere. Mitchell White was traded while we could still get something, while what we got wasn't fantastic, we got something for a player who was struggling to contribute. You are of the opinion we should continue to hold onto Wirrpunda until he becomes a consistent, quality contributor? Keep waiting like the last 9 seasons? 'It's bound to happen eventually!' ? or do we cut our losses and pull a 'Mitchell White' and get something while we can?
Take off those Wirra goggles and face the facts - if his current performances don't lift, he may well be traded at the seasons end in an attempt to bring a consistent contributor into the team.
My view isn't clouded by anything Mr Bag O' Sh*te. So I shouldn't consider trading Cousins because he is a 'champion'? I would say your view is clouded by your loyalty to Ben Cousins and not the Eagles. See? You argument is essentially 'trade someone if it helps the team get better but forget everything else'. Well, thats fine. Lets trade Michael Gardiner because he probably won't play well ever again but we could get a first round pick for him. Lets trade Ben Cousins to Hawthorn for their two first round picks, make Chris Judd captain and hope he doesn't leave after we trade away all his teammates and we will be where St Kilda is in 2-3 years.
Black JuJu
28 Jun 2004, 02:28
Originally posted by coasting
My view isn't clouded by anything Mr Bag O' Sh*te. So I shouldn't consider trading Cousins because he is a 'champion'? I would say your view is clouded by your loyalty to Ben Cousins and not the Eagles. See? You argument is essentially 'trade someone if it helps the team get better but forget everything else'. Well, thats fine. Lets trade Michael Gardiner because he probably won't play well ever again but we could get a first round pick for him. Lets trade Ben Cousins to Hawthorn for their two first round picks, make Chris Judd captain and hope he doesn't leave after we trade away all his teammates and we will be where St Kilda is in 2-3 years.
Your being rather dramatic.
You see mate, it goes like this.
'trade someone if it helps the team get better but forget everything else' is close, but not quite right. You see, you need to assess it on a case to case basis.
Trade Ben Cousins? a proven, consistent, elite player - no.
Trade Michael Gardiner - On form possibly our #1 player, who has played awesome football worthy of putting your trust in? - no.
Trade David Wirrpunda - A talented but inconsistent, free running defender, champ of a bloke but ultimately not a regular top contributor? - possibly, it could happen but his loyalty to the club would play a part in the decision.
NOBODY IS SAYING TRADE EVERYONE. But most are clearly in favour of some squad changes, whether it be the injection of draftees and ommision of 3rd tier strugglers or actively trading for experienced players/higher draft picks.
David Wirrpunda and a couple of others (blokes who actually have played excellent top to bottom seasons like Chad Fletcher.) have come up when discussing possible trades. I think your just going to have to deal with it because the majority here don't seem to think it's almost sacrilege.
coasting
28 Jun 2004, 02:42
Originally posted by Black JuJu
Trade Ben Cousins? a proven, consistent, elite player - no.
The question isn't whether you should trade elite players but rather should you give up a player for better player/s? So the question shouldn't be should we trade Ben Cousins but rather who would you rather have - Cousins or Deleido & Franklin? To do that hypothetical trade we would lose out in the short term but be big long term winners, a bit like Carey and Wells, and quite possibly a bit like trading Wirrapunda. Are we rebuilding or not? If we aren't, why trade him for another inexperienced player? If we are rebuilding, why is Trent Carroll playing?
Mark Viduka
28 Jun 2004, 02:53
Originally posted by coasting
I agree with Jod. You people are pathetic, especially Mark Viduka. To compare him with Mitchell White when he left the Eagles is a joke. Are you people even real Eagles supporters? Maybe you somehow missed all the blood, sweat and tears he has put into the club from the age of 16. Sure, he never really turned into the player we thought he would but thats no reason to turn on him when he finally has a poor season. And just because he has never got in the top 5 in the best and fairest doesn't mean squat if you have been constantly injured. Did you call for Jako to be traded when he had a bad season? Will you call for Chris Judd to be traded when he has a bad season? Find some loyalty, grow some balls or f*^& off to another club.
Take off the blinkers mate. You are comparing Champions of the club, premiership players and superstars with David Wirrpunda??? get your hand off it. He has played 118 games in 8 1/2 years. His body is packing up on him. He is inconsistent. He is a great guy.... but that doesn't mean the club should suffer.
As for Mitchell White he was 27 when the Eagles traded him so he wasn't "gone" but the Eagles obviously knew what they were doing because he only played 23 games for Geelong before retiring from injuries. Those 23 games would have been with us and we would have gotten nothing for him. Wirrpunda would be 25 if traded and with a far worse body that White was in.
Remember one thing.... The club is always bigger than the player.
Mark Viduka
28 Jun 2004, 02:56
Originally posted by coasting
The question isn't whether you should trade elite players but rather should you give up a player for better player/s? So the question shouldn't be should we trade Ben Cousins but rather who would you rather have - Cousins or Deleido & Franklin? To do that hypothetical trade we would lose out in the short term but be big long term winners, a bit like Carey and Wells, and quite possibly a bit like trading Wirrapunda. Are we rebuilding or not? If we aren't, why trade him for another inexperienced player? If we are rebuilding, why is Trent Carroll playing?
Of course we are rebuilding. Carroll is just a stop gap measure because we don't have anyone to play in his position. Keeping Wirrpunda is shortsighted and romantic but is not going to help the club.
coasting
28 Jun 2004, 03:02
Well, all I can say is if Wirrapunda is gone in 2005 and Carroll is still around I will seriously consider putting a brick through someone's window at Eagles HQ. But I think you'll find it will be the other way around.
Mark Viduka
28 Jun 2004, 03:12
Originally posted by coasting
Well, all I can say is if Wirrapunda is gone in 2005 and Carroll is still around I will seriously consider putting a brick through someone's window at Eagles HQ. But I think you'll find it will be the other way around.
So tell us all then. What is your reason for keeping Wirrapunda? What can you see Wirrpunda bringing to the Eagles in 2005?
coasting
28 Jun 2004, 03:21
Originally posted by Mark Viduka
So tell us all then. What is your reason for keeping Wirrapunda? What can you see Wirrpunda bringing to the Eagles in 2005?
He is the best back pocket we have. In fact, he is the only back pocket we have. Who else do we have? You would prefer Kasey Green? Jeremy Humm? I cringe just thinking about these guys. He is the only experienced defender we have. Wirra provides good run out of defence, he just needs to be more accountable.
bunsen burner
28 Jun 2004, 12:20
Originally posted by coasting
Well, all I can say is if Wirrapunda is gone in 2005 and Carroll is still around I will seriously consider putting a brick through someone's window at Eagles HQ. You are clueless about football.
Carroll has not trade value, so what's the point of getting rid of him until we can replace him?
Wirra does have trade value and we might be able to trade him for a player that is more beneficial to us. That player might even make Trent Carroll redundant.
You sound like one of these dumb people who only want to give up duds in return for superstars. It's really not hard to understand the concept that a coach has to build the best team possible and sometimes that means trading a good player in order to get a better balance.
bunsen burner
28 Jun 2004, 12:23
Originally posted by coasting
He is the best back pocket we have. In fact, he is the only back pocket we have. Who else do we have? You would prefer Kasey Green? Jeremy Humm? I cringe just thinking about these guys. He is the only experienced defender we have. Wirra provides good run out of defence, he just needs to be more accountable. We need a spine more than we need a back pocket. KPPs are rarer, more valuable, and take more time to develop that back pocket specialists. Nicoski and Waters are two more than capable players who can be developed into this role.
Originally posted by bunsen burner
We need a spine more than we need a back pocket. KPPs are rarer, more valuable, and take more time to develop that back pocket specialists. Nicoski and Waters are two more than capable players who can be developed into this role.
I agree.The reason I would rate Wirra as tradeable is that at the moment he is not an integral part of the team.
So far this season, we've tended to play Nicoski as the playmaker/creator out of defence in preference to Wirrpunda, and I think the club has pretty much hitched their wagons to Nico ahead of Wirra in that role. There isn't room for two 'loose' playmaker type players in defence, which basically leaves Wirrpunda where he is now- extremely talented, down on form, and yet to prove his worth to the team in another role. He may or may not find another niche in the side, if he isn't traded I hope for our sakes and his that he does find a way to be of value to the team, but the fact that he's currently surplus to our requirements and an an attractive trade prospect for other teams makes him very much tradeable.
carneagles
28 Jun 2004, 17:57
And it's a role Nicoski looks born to do, so far.
Eagles4Ever
28 Jun 2004, 19:01
I can't see Wirra going to collingwood simply because they have nothing to offer. Richmond on the other hand could be a possiblity. With Frawley looking set to depart (http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=157155) and new leadership on there horizon, they might be looking for a cleanout, and a fresh start come seasons end. They need some pace in the side, and we need some KPPS, which they have.
Otherwise we go for draft picks which will take time to develop, and with no certainty if they will cut it later on.
IMO we have enough young talent to develop, and we go for experience.
why are there 2 wirra threads?
Originally posted by coasting
Well, all I can say is if Wirrapunda is gone in 2005 and Carroll is still around I will seriously consider putting a brick through someone's window at Eagles HQ. But I think you'll find it will be the other way around.
It's quite feasible though. I doubt the club would trade Wirra against his will; if he wants to stay he'll stay.
However if he wants to go (maybe he thinks his career is stagnating at the Eagles), the club could and would trade him. No matter what Wirrpunda won't be left on the scrapheap next year.
Carroll on the other hand may not be on any list next year and if he is then it will be the Eagles list. The main reason he'd stay on our list is that he is cheap (would be close to minimum wage), and fills an emergency requirement for a backman if we have injuries.
franky_mojojo
1 Jul 2004, 12:59
Jacobs - P.Johnson + Braun
McGregor + Stenglein - Seaby (as long as Gardy can ruck) + Wirrupunda.
that would have our lineup look somehing like this.
Matera McDougal Cox
Staker Gaspar Sampi
Kerr Judd Embley
Nicoski McGregor Selwood
Jacobs Glass Waters
Gardiner Cousins Stenglein
int Chick Lynch Fletcher Butler
emg Hansen Hunter Chambers
daddy_4_eyes
1 Jul 2004, 13:57
Originally posted by franky_mojojo
Jacobs - P.Johnson + Braun
McGregor + Stenglein - Seaby (as long as Gardy can ruck) + Wirrupunda.
I'd pass on both trades. Jacobs is nothing special, I wouldn't want him at the eagles (unless for a 2nd rd draft pick). And I wouldn't swap Seaby for those two, let alone Seaby AND Wirrpunda (Seaby is gonna be a gun tall, not what we wanna give away).
Eagles4Ever
1 Jul 2004, 14:05
Seaby isn't going anywhere. He will be a vital player to the Eagles in the future and probably take over leading the ruck within a couple of years. We've seen how good he is in the forward line, plus he has good skills and agility for a man his size.
Mr Q. That software is playing up again.
Originally posted by Eagles4Eva
Seaby isn't going anywhere. He will be a vital player to the Eagles in the future and probably take over leading the ruck within a couple of years. We've seen how good he is in the forward line, plus he has good skills and a agility for a man his size.
Yep.. I would be very unhappy if the team traded Seaby- aside from the fact I'm convinced he has it in him to be an elite ruckman of the Gardiner category, it really comes down to this.
If Gardiner isn't fit to play ruck next year, then we can't ask Coxxy to do the lot. I'd say Cox has probably had as heavy a workload this year as any ruckman in the league, and we're basically gambling on the fact that he seems to be more durable than most ruckmen in terms of injury problems. If we traded Seaby, we'd basically be in a situation where Cox would be rucking 3-4 quarters a game, 22 games a year, and I don't think he can withstand that kind of workload without breaking down eventually. So if Gardiner isn't up to rucking, Seaby becomes very important to our future.
Thats one way of looking at it, the other is that assuming we're trading for a KPP, even if Gardiner is fit for the ruck next year, then if Seaby develops as expected he frees up Gardie to play CHF, which frees up Gaspar to play CHB etc. Thus, Seaby in the ruck = Gardiner at CHF, and I don't think there are many better KPPs than Gardiner on the market. Trade Seaby and Gardie is required in the ruck, so we lose a kpp anyway.
Black Thunder
1 Jul 2004, 17:21
Seaby won't be let go by the club. He could be something special thats for sure.
Of the three rucks (Seabs, Gards, Cox) Cox is the only one who could possibly end up at a different club.
And thats only gonna happen if:
1 - Gardiner's knee is upto to being a first ruckman.
2 - Seaby shows he is capable as playing as a second ruck (which i reckon he has 95% shown he can already)
3 - we get a good return trade, cause Cox will be one of the leading ruckman in the competition one day.
If either of those three aren't fulfilled then Cox won't be let go.
If those 3 are fulfilled then he'll probably be traded. And as good as he is, it'd be best for both him and the club if he were traded provided Gardy can ruck and Seabs shows he can back up and play up forward too.
And if those happened Cox would probably rather play for a club where he'll be the main ruckman - he has shown this year he is capable of doing it. He just needs to work on not only winning taps, but finding his own man with the tap.