Now Sumich wants the job

[spindoctor]

From The Age:



I want the Adelaide job: Sumich

By Craig O'Donoghue, Alan Shiell
June 24, 2004

Former Eagle Peter Sumich.

West Coast assistant coach Peter Sumich has thrown his hat into the ring for the coaching job at Adelaide next year.

The Crows are to form a subcommittee to shortlist candidates for the job vacated by Gary Ayres on Monday and Sumich said he would do everything in his power for a chance to impress.

"If there was an opportunity to get an interview, I'd go for it," Sumich said. "They're at a stage where they'll either be asking certain people to apply for it or say anyone can apply.

"If anyone can apply, I will, and if I'm asked to apply, I will go for it. I think I'm ready to be an AFL coach. I took South Fremantle to a grand final and this is my third year at the Eagles. I think I'm ready."

The Crows have a large group of coaches to pick from as they try to replace Ayres. Interim coach Neil Craig, former Western Bulldogs coach Terry Wallace and former Sydney coach Rodney Eade have already declared their interest. Brisbane assistant coach Gary O'Donnell, Essendon assistant Mark Harvey, Sydney assistant Peter Jonas and West Adelaide coach Shaun Rehn are all expected to be spoken to.

Craig has nine weeks as interim coach to prove himself to the Adelaide board. He was a standout candidate when West Coast appointed John Worsfold in 2002 and, along with Wallace, is one of the favourites.

If either man gets the job, it might not be the end for other prospective coaches because Richmond coach Danny Frawley and Hawthorn coach Peter Schwab are both under pressure.

Richmond president Clinton Casey believes his club needs an experienced coach but Sumich said young coaches should not be overlooked simply because they lacked experience.

"We've seen that John Worsfold, Chris Connolly and Paul Roos can do the job and the only way to find the next great coach is to appoint someone," he said.

Craig yesterday publicly began the juggling act that will determine his football future, saying he wanted to win all nine remaining matches and retain the job for "a long period of time".

Craig, 48, is aware he must balance winning with Adelaide's immediate demands - that the team be fiercely competitive, young players are developed and so-called "mid-tier" players are assessed with a view to being retained or delisted.

It is some challenge for Craig and those who assisted Ayres - football operations manager John Reid and assistants Peter Curran, Mark Mickan and Darren Jarman. "The board wants to underpin the club with a competitive spirit," Craig said. "I'd like to win them all (the last nine matches). I think that's got to be the attitude. It could affect team selection, and that's going to be my responsibility - to get that balance right."

- with West Australian




Don't know much about him...what are everyone's thoughts?

[Stiffy_18]

Everybody wants to be the coach of AFC. At least we will have a fair few candidates to choose from which is good. Hopefully we make the right decision as this is one move we cannot afford to screw up.

I still reckon there are only 3 people in the running, Wallace, Craig and Jonas.

[mymansyd]

Ouch...Please don't say the word Craig. My ulcer flairs up.

[dyertribe]

Originally posted by spindoctor
Don't know much about him...what are everyone's thoughts?

I'd have him at FF...

[tinman]

Originally posted by spindoctor
From The Age:




Don't know much about him...what are everyone's thoughts?

No thanks. Not the sharpest tool in the drawer. I would think others are well ahead in consideration.

[DaveW]

I liked Suma as a player.

I'm not convinced he's coaching material though.

[Black JuJu]

Originally posted by tinman
No thanks. Not the sharpest tool in the drawer. I would think others are well ahead in consideration.

What is it with this bloke and judging him from his voice? I'm assuming that's why you think he's not bright, I can't think of anything else.

He's pretty highly regarded in football circles and had a good record coaching in the WAFL (Grand final and won coaches guild coach of the year) before wanting to work with his best friend at the Eagles.

But still, he won't get the Crows job. As with most West Australian beat-up articles, he was probably just answering a couple of simple questions, they padded it out into a story.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Everybody wants to be the coach of AFC. At least we will have a fair few candidates to choose from which is good. Hopefully we make the right decision as this is one move we cannot afford to screw up.

I still reckon there are only 3 people in the running, Wallace, Craig and Jonas.

Throw in Eade and O'Donnell as a wild-card and take out Jonas and IMO you've got the main contenders, Stiffy.

Adelaide rated Eade highly before, and I'd be surprised if he wasn't seen as a genuine contender.

Wallace is of course.

Craig has to be treated as one even if he isn't because of the temporary appointment.

If they look at an unproven coach from outside (I don't think they will appoint one though) it would be O'Donnell not Jonas.

My final 4 are Wallace, Eade, O'donnell and Craig., with the appointee coming out of the first 2.

[Stiffy_18]

I reckon Crows rate Jonas enourmously and I would be surprised if he is not in the top 4 candidates.

Personally I would like him as a development coach.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I reckon Crows rate Jonas enourmously and I would be surprised if he is not in the top 4 candidates.

Personally I would like him as a development coach.

Totally happy with that role for him Stiffy, and his credentials in that area are good too.

It's just that he won't be realistically considered for the main gig.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
Totally happy with that role for him Stiffy, and his credentials in that area are good too.

It's just that he won't be realistically considered for the main gig. Thats where we differ in opinion. If you listen to Trigg's/Saunder's press conference one point that stuck in my mind is Triggy saying that the club need a coach for where they are right now and someone who can develop the youngsters. As good a coach as they both are, Wallace's and Eade's records in this are is far from impressive.

I think Jonas is a real possibility but as I said in the other thread if Craig "does a Roos" the job is his no matter who the other candidates are.

[MarksGirl-kbcrowgirl]

ahhh.....NO

K
XX

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

I think Jonas is a real possibility but as I said in the other thread if Craig "does a Roos" the job is his no matter who the other candidates are.

That's not likely to happen though is it with our draw.

We have Melbourne here, Sydney away, Saints away, Brisbane away, and another showdown.

Lose all those and he'll have a 4-5 record at best.

Even with a 6-3 record I'd doubt if he would get the gig.

The whole picture is far far bigger than 9 games.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
That's not likely to happen though is it with our draw.

We have Melbourne here, Sydney away, Saints away, Brisbane away, and another showdown.

Lose all those and he'll have a 4-5 record at best.

Even with a 6-3 record I'd doubt if he would get the gig.

The whole picture is far far bigger than 9 games. Its probably far fetched BUT if Craig leads the side to 6-3 with the likes of Watts, Bock, Hentschel, Reilly, Mattner and co in the side I reckon he is as close to certainty as possible. If he gets 6-3 record from the next 9 games with youngsters in the side and demonstrates some good coaching he will get the job IMHO. Time will tell but there is a chance that Craig is a good coach.

What was blighty's record like in his first coaching gig??????

[tinman]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I reckon Crows rate Jonas enourmously and I would be surprised if he is not in the top 4 candidates.

Personally I would like him as a development coach.

It would be interesting to see who Blight rates higher out of Jonas and Criag, having had both as assistants.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

What was blighty's record like in his first coaching gig??????

he was player coach with north in the very early eighties I think?
he was shizenhauzen though. utter rubbish.

things change.

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I reckon Crows rate Jonas enourmously and I would be surprised if he is not in the top 4 candidates.

Personally I would like him as a development coach.
Agree with you Stiffy that Jonas should be strongly considered. Ideally get him as a 2IC to Wallace (assuming they get on OK) with an expanded role developing the youngsters.

[KingAragorn]

I for one am very excited to see the fdifference in playing style with Craig at the helm. It will be interesting to see if match ups that are not working are changed quickly or if they still take a couple of quarters as they did under Ayers.

I am interested to see if the slow changes were due to Ayres or the lack of input from the assistant coaches.

Will the team play a far more dynamic and intuitive game, backing themseleves and running in numbers?

Will we stop playing so wide and direct more play through the centre? I think I read that the first training session under Craig they had some new drills and also concentrated on running the ball direct through the centre.

Will Bode get the game time he deserves, remeber we gave a first round draft pick for him. I have noticed that when he starts on the ground and is left in the middle for a decent amount of time he never gives in and always gives 100%. His disposal may be lacking at times but at least he is under the pack and getting the ball. Also remember that during his early days Bicks disposal was not the best either

Go Niel Craig, give it your best.

[MaccasNeighbour]

What is the minimum Neil Craig would have to do in the next 9 weeks to get the gig next year?

7 wins?
5 wins?

Looking at the draw I think anything more than 3 will be impressive.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by KingAragorn

Will Bode get the game time he deserves, remeber we gave a first round draft pick for him. I have noticed that when he starts on the ground and is left in the middle for a decent amount of time he never gives in and always gives 100%. His disposal may be lacking at times but at least he is under the pack and getting the ball. Also remember that during his early days Bicks disposal was not the best either

FFS why does Bode deserve gametime!

Players pick themselves. If he was good enough he would be on 100% of the time.

Don't see Roo on the bench (except for a rest) or Hart, or Edwards.
Maybe because of Bodes deficiencies, which outway his strengths.

What the hell has he done when given gametime to deserve more!

[Tyson20]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
FFS why does Bode deserve gametime!

Players pick themselves. If he was good enough he would be on 100% of the time.

Don't see Roo on the bench (except for a rest) or Hart, or Edwards.
Maybe because of Bodes deficiencies, which outway his strengths.

What the hell has he done when given gametime to deserve more!

what he said! :D

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by MaccasNeighbour
What is the minimum Neil Craig would have to do in the next 9 weeks to get the gig next year?

7 wins?
5 wins?

Looking at the draw I think anything more than 3 will be impressive. The draw is tough and I don't think win-loss ratio will be the deciding factor BUT as I said earlier if he can have more wins that losses while playing a lot of youngsters in the side he will ge tthe gig. Its a given IMHO.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
he was player coach with north in the very early eighties I think?
he was shizenhauzen though. utter rubbish.

things change. Thats my point.

People write off Craig because he was a crap coach in his 1st stint. Now everyone knows that Blighty is a great coach but we all overlook that he was crap in his first stint.

People write off Craig before he has coached 1 game of AFL football. I think AFC should keep an open mind about this and I would be extremely disappointed if we don't assess every candidate thoroughly.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
The draw is tough and I don't think win-loss ratio will be the deciding factor BUT as I said earlier if he can have more wins that losses while playing a lot of youngsters in the side he will ge tthe gig. Its a given IMHO.
The win/loss ratio didn't help Ayres?
Ayres was playing the youngsters and IMO giving everyone a fair go, trying players in different positions (which drew criticism from this board) and was reasonably competitive at the same time.

Back on you - what do you think Craig will need to do (that Ayres wasn't) to get the job over Wallace?

[topjars]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Everybody wants to be the coach of AFC. At least we will have a fair few candidates to choose from which is good. Hopefully we make the right decision as this is one move we cannot afford to screw up.

I still reckon there are only 3 people in the running, Wallace, Craig and Jonas.
Well I hope its not the last two

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Thats my point.

People write off Craig because he was a crap coach in his 1st stint. Now everyone knows that Blighty is a great coach but we all overlook that he was crap in his first stint.

People write off Craig before he has coached 1 game of AFL football. I think AFC should keep an open mind about this and I would be extremely disappointed if we don't assess every candidate thoroughly.
No he wasn't crap with NM.
In fact if you speak to him he says it was too difficult coaching the players he was playing with and He didn't have the required of field support.

Right at the end of the era of playing coaches, and why you'll never see them again.

Think Craigs situation is entirely different. Iam very very nervous about his possible gamestyle:(
Skillful possession game V long kicking physical game (love Pagans/Mathews gameplan).
Not being alarmist at this point (to be fair) but do we want to become another Fremantle style club.:(

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by topjars
Well I hope its not the last two
Thats going to keep the field relatively small;)

[topjars]

Alarming isnt it....the thought of a sports scientist coaching a footy club

The Crows will win there next game.....no question, You could be behind the helm and they would win.

[Tyson20]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Thats my point.

People write off Craig because he was a crap coach in his 1st stint. Now everyone knows that Blighty is a great coach but we all overlook that he was crap in his first stint.

People write off Craig before he has coached 1 game of AFL football. I think AFC should keep an open mind about this and I would be extremely disappointed if we don't assess every candidate thoroughly.

i agree and im pretty confident that the AFC know just how important this transition period is for the club...we wont know if they get any decisions right until at least 12-18mths! the incumbent coach needs time (which i hope AFC supporters give him) and some of the youngster still need more time to develop (Peter Jonas?)...

excitiing times ahead?? :confused:

i think so...;)

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by topjars
Alarming isnt it....the thought of a sports scientist coaching a footy club

The Crows will win there next game.....no question, You could be behind the helm and they would win.
Melbourne are pretty good.
If one week is a long time in footy, 2 weeks is enough for the emotion surrounding the changes to subside.

No doubt Craig is a very very cluey man as far as sports/afl innovations and his knowledge of the game.

Still there are members of the sacked coaches association who were just as clever with more practical AFL experience.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Back on you - what do you think Craig will need to do (that Ayres wasn't) to get the job over Wallace? If he can get the side to be competative week in week out, play youngsters and win say 5 games and be competative in the remaining 4 I think the board will appoint him.

We all think that Craig is a stop gap solution and everyone is writing him off even before he has coached 1 game with the club. This is something I find difficult to understand.

Craig said himself that its too late now to change the game style. Having said that I am expecting us to go direct rather than pis fart around the flanks.

Lets not forget that in AFC's eye the major attribute that next coach must have is ability to develop youngsters. Now if you take rose coloured glasses off all the Wallace and Eade fans would realise their record in this area is average to crap.

I am not sure who should be the next coach but I sure as hell wouldn't be writing anyone off simply because he was part of the Ayres' coaching panel.

Now if we were in a position where we are top 4 team and we needed someone to lead us to a premiership I would go for Wallace. But we are NOT. We are in a need of a coach who can develop youngsters and Wallace's record in this area is weak.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by topjars
Alarming isnt it....the thought of a sports scientist coaching a footy club Who also happened to play more than 300 SANFL games and was a captain of SA in state of origin games.

The Crows will win there next game.....no question, You could be behind the helm and they would win. 2 weeks is a long time. If we played this weekend I would agree but all will be forgoten by the time Melbourne come around. There is only so far that the emotion will take you. Emotion doesn't last long certainly not 2 weeks.

[Wayne's-World]

Just a few points:

1) most interim coaches are successful ie Frawley, Gieschen, Brittain. Thats how those clubs got themselves into trouble, appointing coaches on the back of 5-10 games.

2) Wallace has admitted himself he prefers a team not in rebuilding mode. Having said that I believe we just need to regenerate, as the club says, and do not feel we are destined for 3 years of rebuilding like a St Kilda or Carlton.

3) getting Wallace does not impede on the need to heavily focus on speeding up junior development or our recuiting.
They are seperate issues.

4) I'm in favour of bring Jonas into the coaching panel in a developmental capacity.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Who also happened to play more than 300 SANFL games and was a captain of SA in state of origin games.

Which given how long ago it was, and the fact it is not remotely associated with todays modern AFL game, counts for nothing

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Now if we were in a position where we are top 4 team and we needed someone to lead us to a premiership I would go for Wallace. But we are NOT. We are in a need of a coach who can develop youngsters and Wallace's record in this area is weak. The flaw I see in this argument is that clubs usually don't change coaches when they're top 4 material. Clubs changes coaches when they're languishing at the bottom, like we are now. [OK there's the odd exception, e.g. Blight quitting Geelong in 1994, but I'm talking generally]

For instance, when we recruited Blight at the end of 1996, we were hardly expecting him to win a premiership the following year.

Do we pick a coach to rebuild now, then sack him for someone like Wallace when the team starts come good?

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by DaveW
The flaw I see in this argument is that clubs usually don't change coaches when they're top 4 material. Clubs changes coaches when they're languishing at the bottom, like we are now. [OK there's the odd exception, e.g. Blight quitting Geelong in 1994, but I'm talking generally]

For instance, when we recruited Blight at the end of 1996, we were hardly expecting him to win a premiership the following year.

Do we pick a coach to rebuild now, then sack him for someone like Wallace when the team starts come good?
Very good point. Its all based on the assumption we are a long way off the mark.
I disagree strongly with this premise. All sides with the right injection of talent are in the mix for a premiership.

The sides who flood their list with juiniors take longer due to the maturation process. We do not want to go down that track - I prefer the Essendon model.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Which given how long ago it was, and the fact it is not remotely associated with todays modern AFL game, counts for nothing Whats that got to do with the price of the fish??????

It was mentioned that Craig is a scientist in charge of a footy club. May I also say that he is first and foremost a footballer. You don't play 300 odd games if you don't know a thing or 2 about football.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Just a few points:

1) most interim coaches are successful ie Frawley, Gieschen, Brittain. Thats how those clubs got themselves into trouble, appointing coaches on the back of 5-10 games.

2) Wallace has admitted himself he prefers a team not in rebuilding mode. Having said that I believe we just need to regenerate, as the club says, and do not feel we are destined for 3 years of rebuilding like a St Kilda or Carlton.

3) getting Wallace does not impede on the need to heavily focus on speeding up junior development or our recuiting.
They are seperate issues.

4) I'm in favour of bring Jonas into the coaching panel in a developmental capacity. 1. You are also ignoring that the likes of Wallace (who you want as a coach), Roos and IIRC Pagan were both interim coaches. It can go either way. Stating one without stating the other is ignorant.

2. Yet another band aid solution for short term finals appearence and some long term pain. Funny that. I would rather have 3 years of rebuilding now than 5 years in 3-4 years time;)

3. Yes but a coach has to be albe to bring along youngsters in an AFL side and turn them into champions. Wallace has NOT done this and thats one deficiency that we can't overlook considering the situation we are in. His recruiting record is far from impressive. We all keep forgetting that the coach has the final say when it comes to who he wants recruited and what he wants to give up.

4. So am I ;)

[spindoctor]

I'm excited by how these next 9 weeks will pan out, win lose or draw.

For some reason I'm warming to Craig. He seems to be a very cluey boke and Blight rates him.

When it comes down to it, Ayres was a stubborn bastard and probably didn't allow much flair in his coaching box, which may have stifled Craig's ideas.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Whats that got to do with the price of the fish??????

It was mentioned that Craig is a scientist in charge of a footy club. May I also say that he is first and foremost a footballer. You don't play 300 odd games if you don't know a thing or 2 about football.
Quite frankly we could appoint someone to coach us with 400 SA Amatuer games on the basis of that argument.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Quite frankly we could appoint someone to coach us with 400 SA Amatuer games on the basis of that argument. Absolute CRAP:rolleyes:

He captained his state at the highelst level of football possible.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
1. You are also ignoring that the likes of Wallace (who you want as a coach), Roos and IIRC Pagan were both interim coaches. It can go either way. Stating one without stating the other is ignorant.

2. Yet another band aid solution for short term finals appearence and some long term pain. Funny that. I would rather have 3 years of rebuilding now than 5 years in 3-4 years time;)

3. Yes but a coach has to be albe to bring along youngsters in an AFL side and turn them into champions. Wallace has NOT done this and thats one deficiency that we can't overlook considering the situation we are in. His recruiting record is far from impressive. We all keep forgetting that the coach has the final say when it comes to who he wants recruited and what he wants to give up.

4. So am I ;)

1) not ignorant just forgetful;) Having said that if we get into aroll call, i'll bet I get way more failures than successes (lets say 70/30)

2)Essendon has proven that you can produce a successful model where you trade aggressively, recruit wisely and can always be thereabouts.
They have had the odd low position only to be up again the following season. I do not believe our list is i as bad a shape as your suggesting.

3)Wallace did regenerate and bring a swag of youngsters into the bulldogs - check their draft selections.
He however left the bulldogs B4 those youngsters started to really mature and produce consistently.

The media in the year Wallace left were praising the good list the bulldogs had assembled.
To be fair Wallace was instrumental in this process.

I will agree that his recruiting policies of getting midfielders V talls is a real concern. But the AFC is a very strong organisation who would be very influential with recruiting policies.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Absolute CRAP:rolleyes:

He captained his state at the highelst level of football possible.
That was VFL wasn't it - no sorry I didn't realise that SANFL was the highest level in the league.;)

And how many years ago was it.

I've changed my mind - bring Neil Kerly back as coach - he has more credentials than Craig on the basis of your argument.:)

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
1) not ignorant just forgetful;) Having said that if we get into aroll call, i'll bet I get way more failures than successes (lets say 70/30)

2)Essendon has proven that you can produce a successful model where you trade aggressively, recruit wisely and can always be thereabouts.
They have had the odd low position only to be up again the following season. I do not believe our list is i as bad a shape as your suggesting.

3)Wallace did regenerate and bring a swag of youngsters into the bulldogs - check their draft selections.
He however left the bulldogs B4 those youngsters started to really mature and produce consistently.

The media in the year Wallace left were praising the good list the bulldogs had assembled.
To be fair Wallace was instrumental in this process.

I will agree that his recruiting policies of getting midfielders V talls is a real concern. But the AFC is a very strong organisation who would be very influential with recruiting policies. 1. Each case is different and generalising is not a very smart thing to do.

2. True but you need a good base.We haven't got it because our "base" is in the twilight of their careers.

3. Please name the youngsters that he has brought an to become top players. I can only come up with the likes of Johnson and Brown. Somene like McMahorn (pick 10 in the draft) is a major flop.

WHat good list?????? WB list is far from good especially if you remove the players they brough in under Rohde

You adit his recruiting is bad but Fantasia was on 5AA today and he once again proved my point that the coach has a final say on who he brings in. Same strong AFC that let Ayres pick up Angwin despite everyone bar Ayres and Curran being greatly opposed to it??????

It goes a lot deeper that a lot of people here are prepared to analyse it. We need to consider where we are in terms of list development and what the goal is in the next couple of years.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
That was VFL wasn't it - no sorry I didn't realise that SANFL was the highest level in the league.;)

And how many years ago was it.

I've changed my mind - bring Neil Kerly back as coach - he has more credentials than Craig on the basis of your argument.:) Being a smartarse who selectively reads the posts is realy not your forte. I said represented his state at thehighest level. Last time I checked SA Vs Victoria was the pinnacle of football back in those days and Craig was the captain of his state. When was the last time Wallace played footy?????? Looks like you have been brainwashed by Victorians in believeing that SANFL wasn't up to it and SANFL legends are overrated:rolleyes:

Craig finished playuing in 1990. Thats 14 years ago. Hardly ancient. When was it that Wallace ended his playing career?????

Again selective quoting is not your forte;)

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Being a smartarse who selectively reads the posts is realy not your forte. I said represented his state at thehighest level. Last time I checked SA Vs Victoria was the pinnacle of football back in those days and Craig was the captain of his state. When was the last time Wallace played footy?????? Looks like you have been brainwashed by Victorians in believeing that SANFL wasn't up to it and SANFL legends are overrated:rolleyes:

Craig finished playuing in 1990. Thats 14 years ago. Hardly ancient. When was it that Wallace ended his playing career?????

Again selective quoting is not your forte;)
So captaining your state for how many games? is the credentials for an AFL coach. To the best of my knowledge he may have captained the state as a fill in? but not for many games. But I( will stand to be corrected on that one.

As for SANFL legends I'm in a far better position to comment than you will ever be.

SANFL backgound has not and ever will be the "basis" for qualifications as an AFL coach.
Give me a better argument than that one.;)

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

3. Please name the youngsters that he has brought an to become top players. I can only come up with the likes of Johnson and Brown. Somene like McMahorn (pick 10 in the draft) is a major flop.

Between 1999-2001 these players were drafted. Wallace left in 2002.

Sam Power
Brian Harris (your love child)
Robert Murphy
Mitchell Hahn
Patrick Bowden

Use the 3 year rule and Wallace would have seen the benefit of these handy players last year and this. whether they would have been better players had Wallace stayed I guess is hypothetical.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
1. So captaining your state for how many games? is the credentials for an AFL coach. To the best of my knowledge he may have captained the state as a fill in? but not for many games. But I( will stand to be corrected on that one.

2. As for SANFL legends I'm in a far better position to comment than you will ever be.

3. SANFL backgound has not and ever will be the "basis" for qualifications as an AFL coach.
Give me a better argument than that one.;) 1. Did I ever say it did?????? I was making a point that Craig is not only the scientist. He is also a footballer who happen to play over 300 games of SANFL footy. Have I ever saaid what you suggested?????? NO

2. You most probably are but I hate it when there is that Victorian tone about your post and that particular post was full of victorian crap.

3. Have I ever said it is. Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said Craig has credentials because he played SANFL football or has SANFL background. Are you really this thick (I doubt it cos you do make some intelligent comments) or are you trying to pick a fight??????

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Between 1999-2001 these players were drafted. Wallace left in 2002.

Sam Power
Brian Harris (your love child)
Robert Murphy
Mitchell Hahn
Patrick Bowden

Use the 3 year rule and Wallace would have seen the benefit of these handy players last year and this. whether they would have been better players had Wallace stayed I guess is hypothetical. Hnady being the operative word. None of those players are gun that you can say will be the face of the WB for years to come. Granted only one of those is a top 10 pick but he is hardly a player that will be a face of WB. All of those players are handy players but not the players that make a great list of youngsters. Murphy is probably the only one out of those that you can say will be a gun and Harris has the potential to be one of the best FBs in the comp.

Hardly a record to brag about considering the needs of our club.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Thats my point.

People write off Craig because he was a crap coach in his 1st stint. Now everyone knows that Blighty is a great coach but we all overlook that he was crap in his first stint.

People write off Craig before he has coached 1 game of AFL football. I think AFC should keep an open mind about this and I would be extremely disappointed if we don't assess every candidate thoroughly.

Stiffy,
your point would be fair if he were a fresh candidate, but as he isn't, it's not.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
It was mentioned that Craig is a scientist in charge of a footy club. May I also say that he is first and foremost a footballer. You don't play 300 odd games if you don't know a thing or 2 about football.

Sam Newman.

No I am serious, it' s been said many times before. It's odd that he is a bright guy, who was a champion player, and still doesn't understand the game that well. One of the reasons he has nevered coached, or made a fist of in-football roles.

not true of everyone of course, but sometimes great players are just that.

nb. not saying that is true of craig, but playing 300 games doesn't mean it's not either.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

2. You most probably are but I hate it when there is that Victorian tone about your post and that particular post was full of victorian crap.


Please explain :confused:

[spindoctor]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Sam Newman.

No I am serious, it' s been said many times before. It's odd that he is a bright guy, who was a champion player, and still doesn't understand the game that well. One of the reasons he has nevered coached, or made a fist of in-football roles.

not true of everyone of course, but sometimes great players are just that.

nb. not saying that is true of craig, but playing 300 games doesn't mean it's not either.

Sam Newman is not a bright guy.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Sam Newman.

No I am serious, it' s been said many times before. It's odd that he is a bright guy, who was a champion player, and still doesn't understand the game that well. One of the reasons he has nevered coached, or made a fist of in-football roles.

not true of everyone of course, but sometimes great players are just that.

nb. not saying that is true of craig, but playing 300 games doesn't mean it's not either. No you make a fair point and I agree 100%. Great players don't necessarily make great coaches.

I made a comment that Craig played more than 300 SANFL games because Jars said that we have a scientist in chrage of the team. I simply implied that Craig also happened to be a footballer. Now I am not saying he is therefore going to be a good coach or anything along those lines. I am simply saying that:

1) Craig played footy at a high level and captained his state so therefore he is a footy person

2) Him being a scientist IMHO is an advantage simply because I have never come across a good scientist that is not innovative. Being a scientist myself, I know how brain of a good scientist works. It keeps searching for something new, something to enhance whats already there and always looking for the optimal solution.

Ayres was always critisised for his lack of imagination, flair and inability to think outside the square. Something I think Craig has a great potential to produce.

Now I keep saying, I am not sure if Craig is the right man for the job BUT I am not prepared to write him off simply because he happened to be a crap coach in his first stint (depite the fact that he had more wins than losses). By his own admission he was clueless and was a great learning curve. Now combine that coaching experience with being an assistant coach to Blighty in premiership winning seasons and also an assistant to a stoic figure and experienced coach like Ayres.

If Craig was half smart (which I am 100% certain he is) then he would have leanred a hell of a lot in those 2 stints. Add to that the man managment and preparation he would have leanred in an olympic cycling and you potentially have a gun.

Now again I am not saying he is the answer but he could well be better fit for our club than someone else.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Please explain :confused:

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Absolute CRAP

He captained his state at the highelst level of football possible.

Wayne's World's response to that was:

Originally posted by Wayne's_World
That was VFL wasn't it - no sorry I didn't realise that SANFL was the highest level in the league.

Typical Victorian response "Our league is better than yours blah blah blah" When I said Craig cpatained his state at the highest possible level. Nothing to do with VFL what so ever.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by spindoctor
Sam Newman is not a bright guy.

you're wrong there, he is exceptionally bright. Still a **** that though.

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
No you make a fair point and I agree 100%. Great players don't necessarily make great coaches.

I made a comment that Craig played more than 300 SANFL games because Jars said that we have a scientist in chrage of the team. I simply implied that Craig also happened to be a footballer. Now I am not saying he is therefore going to be a good coach or anything along those lines. I am simply saying that:

1) Craig played footy at a high level and captained his state so therefore he is a footy person

2) Him being a scientist IMHO is an advantage simply because I have never come across a good scientist that is not innovative. Being a scientist myself, I know how brain of a good scientist works. It keeps searching for something new, something to enhance whats already there and always looking for the optimal solution.

Ayres was always critisised for his lack of imagination, flair and inability to think outside the square. Something I think Craig has a great potential to produce.

Now I keep saying, I am not sure if Craig is the right man for the job BUT I am not prepared to write him off simply because he happened to be a crap coach in his first stint (depite the fact that he had more wins than losses). By his own admission he was clueless and was a great learning curve. Now combine that coaching experience with being an assistant coach to Blighty in premiership winning seasons and also an assistant to a stoic figure and experienced coach like Ayres.

If Craig was half smart (which I am 100% certain he is) then he would have leanred a hell of a lot in those 2 stints. Add to that the man managment and preparation he would have leanred in an olympic cycling and you potentially have a gun.

Now again I am not saying he is the answer but he could well be better fit for our club than someone else.

fair enough

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
1. Did I ever say it did?????? I was making a point that Craig is not only the scientist. He is also a footballer who happen to play over 300 games of SANFL footy. Have I ever saaid what you suggested?????? NO

2. You most probably are but I hate it when there is that Victorian tone about your post and that particular post was full of victorian crap.

3. Have I ever said it is. Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said Craig has credentials because he played SANFL football or has SANFL background. Are you really this thick (I doubt it cos you do make some intelligent comments) or are you trying to pick a fight??????
As a Sth Aust for most of my life, The fact I now live in Victoria allows me to objectively see the bias that does exist within the state.
Sadly that Bias has been created by your media, and one particular media personality.
No Victorian overtones as you call it, just some objectivity.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
As a Sth Aust for most of my life, The fact I now live in Victoria allows me to objectively see the bias that does exist within the state.
Sadly that Bias has been created by your media, and one particular media personality.
No Victorian overtones as you call it, just some objectivity. Fair enough but please tell me where VFL debate became relevant so you had to bring it up??????

I said Craig cpatained his state at the highest level. Tell me where is the need for you to bring up that VFL was higher level than SANFL.

The fact that you brought VFL into this discussion stinks of Victorian hypocricy.;)

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Hnady being the operative word. None of those players are gun that you can say will be the face of the WB for years to come. Granted only one of those is a top 10 pick but he is hardly a player that will be a face of WB. All of those players are handy players but not the players that make a great list of youngsters. Murphy is probably the only one out of those that you can say will be a gun and Harris has the potential to be one of the best FBs in the comp.

Hardly a record to brag about considering the needs of our club.
The opinions on Bowden are very high.
These players don't currently get the recognition because they're in a lowly side.
Eventually they will have a higher public profile.
Give me Bowden as a KPP anyday - he will be good.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Fair enough but please tell me where VFL debate became relevant so you had to bring it up??????

I said Craig cpatained his state at the highest level. Tell me where is the need for you to bring up that VFL was higher level than SANFL.

The fact that you brought VFL into this discussion stinks of Victorian hypocricy.;)
The long held belief in Sth Aust was that our competition Pre AFL was not far behind the then VFL.

Playing 1 state game a year, does not qualify as playing the game at the highest level.
Repeating the effort week in week out at that level is.
Craig has never been exposed to that weekly pressure as a footy player.

So the relevancy of his footy background to his suitablity as an AFL coach is an invalid argument.
But you raised it to support his case, not me.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The long held belief in Sth Aust was that our competition Pre AFL was not far behind the then VFL.

Playing 1 state game a year, does not qualify as playing the game at the highest level.
Repeating the effort week in week out at that level is.
Craig has never been exposed to that weekly pressure as a footy player.

So the relevancy of his footy background to his suitablity as an AFL coach is an invalid argument.
But you raised it to support his case, not me. have I said that he played at the highest level??????

I will repeat what I said because it appers that you are NOT getting it.

He represtented his state at the highest level. Big difference. You don't get picked to play for your state unless you happen to be a good footballer and they don't give out the captaincy to just anyone out there. The fact that he captained his state suggests that he was a good player. Again nothing to do with playing VFL football. Its about representing your state in a state of origin game against the best in the business.

Secondly I raised his playing record to suggest that he also happens to be a footy person not just a scientist.

There was no need to bring in the SANFL was not as the same level as VFL. So by your reckoning some of the biggest names in SANFL history were not that good because they never played in VFL and I find that biggest load of crap.

Again read the contest in which I brought up his playing record. I am sure you are bright enough to see it.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The opinions on Bowden are very high.
These players don't currently get the recognition because they're in a lowly side.
Eventually they will have a higher public profile.
Give me Bowden as a KPP anyday - he will be good.

Brown, Montgomery, Birss(pre-injury), Penny, McMahon, and Alvey didn't get a mention, but of course that weakens the pro-Craig argument somewhat doesn't it.

No beating of the chest or the bass drums can alter the facts.

Wallace has a better record at AFL level with a moderate list than Craig at SANFL level with a good list - FACT.

Wallace was a brilliant and innovative match-day coach while Craig persevered with a flawed game plan throughout his coaching stint - FACT.

WW, it's not worth arguing about, because IMO it's like comparing a V8 and a 4 cylinder.

I've given up arguing on this issue.

If the club appoints Craig, when there are better proven coaches available, then the risk is on their head.

If he fails I would expect every single official of the AFC to resign en masse rather than blame Craig.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18


There was no need to bring in the SANFL was not as the same level as VFL. So by your reckoning some of the biggest names in SANFL history were not that good because they never played in VFL and I find that biggest load of crap.

Again read the contest in which I brought up his playing record. I am sure you are bright enough to see it.
Now your putting words in my mouth:rolleyes:

Assume you meant context, which means I have some understanding of the english Language. Does that qualify me as having some intelligence;)

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
Brown, I already mentioned him so I don't know why you brought him up
Montgomery, He is just a proof of how crap Wallace's trading record is. Didn't he give up Montgomery and a hell of a lot more for Eagleton but you wouldn't mention that because it weakens the Wallace argument
Birss(pre-injury), Again good player but hardly an inspiring choice
Penny, Very good player who wanted to leave and was traded away. One of the best key defenders in the league
McMahon,Another inspiring choice. A top 10 pick who continues to prove what a flop he was. Ayres got ****loads of canning for Angwin. I would imagine Wallace would cop the same if he made this mistake in Adelaide
and Alvey Hardly inspiring choice.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by macca23
Brown, Montgomery, Birss(pre-injury), Penny, McMahon, and Alvey didn't get a mention, but of course that weakens the pro-Craig argument somewhat doesn't it.

No beating of the chest or the bass drums can alter the facts.

Wallace has a better record at AFL level with a moderate list than Craig at SANFL level with a good list - FACT.

Wallace was a brilliant and innovative match-day coach while Craig persevered with a flawed game plan throughout his coaching stint - FACT.

WW, it's not worth arguing about, because IMO it's like comparing a V8 and a 4 cylinder.

I've given up arguing on this issue.

If the club appoints Craig, when there are better proven coaches available, then the risk is on their head.

If he fails I would expect every single official of the AFC to resign en masse rather than blame Craig.
Didn't raise those players because Stiffy had already named Mcmahon, and the other players were selected after Wallace took the decision to rebuild his list.

I think (stand to be corrected) the players you named were taken prior to his decision to rebuild.

I'm not going to bemoan Craig a second chance at coaching - I agree he will be better a second time.

I just agree with you that the AFC should take the proven good coach, rather than gamble with someone who hasn't played or coached outside the state, and hasn't controlled a footy team in 8 years.

The final point is; if Craig had burning ambition to coach at AFL level, he would have taken the West Coast job.
The fact Wallace is prepared to move interstate, and watch ever single AFL game is a sign that he still has the burning desire to not only coach but be successful.

Pretty clear cut to me.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World

I just agree with you that the AFC should take the proven good coach, rather than gamble with someone who hasn't played or coached outside the state, and hasn't controlled a footy team in 8 years.

The final point is; if Craig had burning ambition to coach at AFL level, he would have taken the West Coast job.
The fact Wallace is prepared to move interstate, and watch ever single AFL game is a sign that he still has the burning desire to not only coach but be successful.

Pretty clear cut to me.

And to me. Which is why I've finished arguing the point.

However, the AFC have shown themselves to be prone to taking the easy soft option in the past. So let's not just assume that they will have the common sense to do the logical thing rather than the easy thing.

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The final point is; if Craig had burning ambition to coach at AFL level, he would have taken the West Coast job. There is a story behind this that is now known in football circles but is always denied by the AFC. I think his decision to pull out of the WC job had a fair bit to do with the likes of Ricciuto, McLeod and Goodwin rallying behing Craig to stay at the AFC.

Can I also ask another question. WC are on eof the richest clubs in AFL along with Adelaide so for a club that is so financially sound why did they want Craig?????? They must have seen something in him that they liked.

Again I am not sure if Craig is the right man for the job but I do think that its a soft option if we go for Wallace without assessing other coaches thoroughly. Writing Craig off before he coached 1 AFL game is wrong. Now macca23 and you might well be proven right that he is not up to it but why write him off before you have seen him coach a game??????:confused:

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
And to me. Which is why I've finished arguing the point.

However, the AFC have shown themselves to be prone to taking the easy soft option in the past. So let's not just assume that they will have the common sense to do the logical thing rather than the easy thing. This is where we disagree. IMO the easy thing would be to go out and say Terry Wallace here is a 3 year contract and you are our coach without thoroughly considering other candidates. To me that is the easy option.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
This is where we disagree. IMO the easy thing would be to go out and say Terry Wallace here is a 3 year contract and you are our coach without thoroughly considering other candidates. To me that is the easy option.

You're confusing sensible with easy, Stiffy.

How many good coaches do you really think are available?? Ones who you could genuinely appoint?? Name them. it won't take long.

Of course we could sit back and wait for Richmond and Hawthorn to pick the eyes out of what is available, and then appoint a left-over.

Which might just be an untried SANFL coach with a crap record who stuck for years with a flawed game plan who is now a fill-in caretaker coach because that's easy.

If the AFC don't have an idea now of who's available and who's the best, then they have no idea at all.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
There is a story behind this that is now known in football circles but is always denied by the AFC. I think his decision to pull out of the WC job had a fair bit to do with the likes of Ricciuto, McLeod and Goodwin rallying behing Craig to stay at the AFC.
If the players ralied to keep Craig it had nothing to do with an AFL coaching position - so how strong was his desire to coach?

Can I also ask another question. WC are on eof the richest clubs in AFL along with Adelaide so for a club that is so financially sound why did they want Craig?????? They must have seen something in him that they liked.
With most ex footballers wanting to go into media these days, coaching has become a secondary option.
At the time of the WC offer, I don't recall the field of candidates being terribly strong with experience?

Again I am not sure if Craig is the right man for the job but I do think that its a soft option if we go for Wallace without assessing other coaches thoroughly. Writing Craig off before he coached 1 AFL game is wrong. Now macca23 and you might well be proven right that he is not up to it but why write him off before you have seen him coach a game??????:confused:
I haven't written him off, but I fail to see, based on history, how the next 9 weeks will answer, one way or the other, whether he is the right candidate.

So it gets back to the gamble V the known experienced good coach?

[Stiffy_18]

I think 9 weeks can tell us a fair bit about Craig as a coach. 9 weeks is a long time in footy. We all seem to be forgetting that the best of coaches had to start somewhere. Wallace was interim coach who happened to be a bloody good one. Whats to say Craig won't be the same. Also 10 weeks was enough for football world to know that Roos is a pretty good coach. My point is you can't cetegorically say that Craig is not the right man for the job. Come the end of the season he might well prove to be a better coach than Wallace. Time will tell.

[macca23]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World

I haven't written him off, but I fail to see, based on history, how the next 9 weeks will answer, one way or the other, whether he is the right candidate.

So it gets back to the gamble V the known experienced good coach?

Of couse it gets back to that.

The next 9 games will answer nothing compared with several years of history. Players traditionally get a wake up call when the coach disappers mid-season, and there is a stated intention to clean the list out at season end.

If our club bases such an important decision on a 9 week period rather than substantial substance, then we are stuffed!!

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
You're confusing sensible with easy, Stiffy.

How many good coaches do you really think are available?? Ones who you could genuinely appoint?? Name them. it won't take long.

Of course we could sit back and wait for Richmond and Hawthorn to pick the eyes out of what is available, and then appoint a left-over.

Which might just be an untried SANFL coach with a crap record who stuck for years with a flawed game plan who is now a fill-in caretaker coach because that's easy.

If the AFC don't have an idea now of who's available and who's the best, then they have no idea at all. I only rate Wallace as a good coach from the bunch and a number of potentially good coaches. I don't rate Eade as an overly good coach and quite frankly I would appoint anyone but him.

Richmond and Hawks still have coaches and Wallace stated publically that he will wait until the end of the year to see what is available and then assess his options so we are hardly waiting for Richmond or Hawks to snatch him. I doubt Wallace will coach Hawks because there is still some bad blood there.

You seem to judge Craig on his first coaching stint and nothing else. I am pretty sure you weren't as good a CEO when you first started as you are now. Its a natural progression and can you see how a coach would learn over the year as he gets more experienced in a lesser role?????? I think its just a natural progression.

Now again I am not stressing that Craig is the man but I am saying that by his own admission he was clueless the first time around and has leanred a lot since then. I am pretty sure he would have learned a hell of a lot about man managment and athlete preparation from his stint with the olympic cycling team. I am pretty sure he would have learned some strong footy phylosophy from Blight and as much as we bag him he still would have leanred something positive from Ayres. I just don't understand the reasoning from writing him off before he even started.

Don't stress because Wallace will be there. He is NOT going anywhere. Wallace realises that his next coaching gig is do or bust so to him its imperative that he makes the right choice. Blind Freddy could see that Adelaide is the pick of the bunch for any coach. You ask any coach out there whether he would rather coach Adelaide, Richmond or Hawks and I am sure they would choose the Crows for stability, resources and security.

[macca23]

Fair enough Stiffy. We've thrashed the topic to death and we'll just have to differ in our opinions on Craig.

As for myself, the reason I have progressed in the world of business, is because I haven't stuffed up as I've risen through the ranks. Nobody promotes you or hires you on the basis that they hope you'll improve. That's why I apply the same principle to the selection of a coach.

My last comment is the repeat of one I made earlier.

If the AFC ignore the proven coaches such as Wallace and appoint Craig, then if Craig fails, I would expect every Board member and club official to resign en masse rather than blame Craig.

[Wayne's-World]

Originally posted by macca23
Fair enough Stiffy. We've thrashed the topic to death and we'll just have to differ in our opinions on Craig.

As for myself, the reason I have progressed in the world of business, is because I haven't stuffed up as I've risen through the ranks. Nobody promotes you or hires you on the basis that they hope you'll improve. That's why I apply the same principle to the selection of a coach.

My last comment is the repeat of one I made earlier.

If the AFC ignore the proven coaches such as Wallace and appoint Craig, then if Craig fails, I would expect every Board member and club official to resign en masse rather than blame Craig.
I think we have made our point of view pretty obvious.

TWT now how the decision goes, I will make no further comment on the coaching role till after the final decision.

[crazy_big_al]

I think that there are many different coaches that would be great for the crows but i think the next coach should be a guys who has not be the head coach of and AFL team before. I think Neil Craig deserves it. but other people who should be in the running are.

Garry O'Donnell
Mark Havey
Peter Jonas
Alistair Clarkson

that is in no particular order.

If one of the guys are give the gig. I hope he is given the time to develop the list so they can get back to the finals again because at the moment i can see a few lean years at West Lakes

[maccas_no1]

No Thanks, like a few others have said good player but may not have what it takes to rebuild the AFC.

[spindoctor]

Wallace will probably end up at the Hawks.

[Still Crowing]

And Eade probably at Richmond.....which will suit me fine. I don't rate either Wallace or Eade for player development and recruiting. I'd be perfectly happy for the club to take a punt on Gary O'Donnell.