assistance please

[barelady]

Hi guys. I’m new to Bigfooty but need help. Please tell me if I’m going over old ground or breaking some rule, as I’ve not done this before.
I’ve recently moved from Bris to Melb for work. Footy’s really full on down here but the people I work with seem to feel that BrisbaneFC is merely a tool the AFL is using to push footy in the northern states. They tell me that BFC was/is given many advantages most other teams don’t get to ensure their success and don’t deserve full credit for their Premierships.
They argue that;
1.For many years Brisbane (and Sydney) were given a Zone selection in the draft, which was equivalent to an extra first round pick. Vossy, Ackers and a few other great players were picked up this way. I’m not sure how long this went on but they assure me it gave us a huge drafting advantage.
2. The player retention salary cap extension is unwarranted. Players do not want to leave Brisbane so why are they still getting this allowance. Many great players have left Freo in recent years to go home, why don’t they get it. They say it has little to do with geography, more to do with success, i.e. struggling teams always lose players who want to go to winning teams, thus the allowance should go to all struggling teams.

Pleeese help me. I need solid rational counters to these arguments. I don’t want to be arrogant or rude when talking to them but would really love to put them back in their box with some rock solid answers.

[Lady Lawrence]

Welcome to the board barelady. Wish I could give you some "rock solid" answers but nothing anyone says will ever help. This debate will go on until the cows come home and no side will ever win the debate. "They" believe we "bought" our premierships or were "handed" them or whatever excuses they use. We know they were "earned" and nothing they say can take that away from us. Hearing that is what they think changed nothing of my feelings on those wonderful September days.

Despite the current success of the Lions and whatever the future holds I believe Queensland will never be an AFL state in that we don't have the history of Victoria etc, generations supporting the same team etc. The passion and fever in Melbourne is unique from both a supporter and a players point of view.

The way I understand it the retention allowance in the cap is now on a sliding scale dependent upon how many Queenslanders are on the list. More Queenslanders = less cap allowed. If it was introduced to retain players because we weren't successful then this argument does not hold water. If this was the case why don't the AFL give a salary cap allowance to the Western Bulldogs rather than handing out dollars to "retain" their better players and prevent them from going to a more successful club?

The other side of the coin is that if you are a "star" footballer and thrive on the celebrity etc then Melbourne is the place you would want to be. Despite their success the Lions can still walk around Brisbane and not get mobbed etc. I can also remember a few years ago Vossy saying he would like the experience of playing for a Melbourne team and experiencing the way footy is down there. Thank God that is not now going to happen and Vossy will see out his career in Brisbane but if someone like Vossy says that maybe the "retention" is for that purpose?

All I can say is good luck and I think if you had a white piece of paper on the table and said it was white and someone believed it was pink you would have more success in that debate!

Enjoy it for what it is worth. I love going to games in Melbourne, you can lose the plot entirely whilst baracking for your team and no-one looks at you sideways. We are slowly learning here in Queensland but we are still a long way off.

[barelady]

Thank LL. From what you say it appears I wont be able to put up much of an argument. My main concern is that most Melb people I talk to are very genuine in there belief that Bris has been given the flags. They are not nasty or rude when explaining it to me, they seem very sincere. I would just love to have something I could say to make them reconsider. They all say Bris is a GREAT team but would not be without the allowances.
I'm watching the game on tv and the weather looks magnificent. This is my first winter in Melb and I'm struggling...sooo cold. If I was a player I'd want to be training and living in the lovely Qld weather not this icy town.

[pedrothelioness]

Sydney have always got more concessions than us, where are all their flags? We're were our flags when we came last a few years back?. Pff that whole we were given our flags mostly comes from teams where their mismanagement has lead them to be down the bottom, ect carlton collingwood where they havent recruited well. Thing is, our team has been together for many years, and they have just learnt how to play well as a team together. The players and what they are worth, have obviously increased with the amount of premierships we have won, and I believe that we have players that have matured earlier due to the competitive nature of the leaders and the club ect ect.
Who really cares what others think? There's never going to be fair ground, our concessions are decreasing, but until every team travels the amount that we, and most interestate teams do, then teams like collingwood will get a cushy ride throughout the year, in the purpose of money making. The people complaining the most, ie Macguire, actually have some of the most concessions/advantages themselves.

[Shaz]

It also depends on which team the people you're talking to follow will depend on whether they believe the Lions bought, were given etc the last 3 flags.

I'm Victorian and come from the Fitzroy side of the Brisbane Lions family. I started in the job I have now on the Wednesday after the 2001 grand final. I walked into a department of mostly Essendon supporters! Over the past 3 years we have had many a lively debate but if often ends with them saying that the Lions are simply a better side. One or two of the Collingwood supporters over the past two years have more or less said Collingwood weren't good enough.

Simply point to the disipline that Leigh Matthews has instilled into the club. 1998 was a year many of us wish we could forget but it is also the turning point for the club. In 1999 Matthews came in and said it was his way or the highway and the club followed. Leppa and Chris Johnson have both been rewarded with All Australian selection because of Matthews.

You can have all the money in the world, it is what you do with it that counts. Collingwood have turned themselves around financially but that hasn't helped them on field. From appearing in the grand final two years in a row, they're going to finish out of the top eight. Question is how are they going to recruit? Buy a player, get the young ones and develop them and rebuild?

Salary cap concession has meant the Lions are able to pay more to keep players, but they still have to raise that money and continue to be financially stable. They don't get the money from the AFL to pay the concession. The recruitment team of the Lions have done an incredible job over the past number of years and that is now paying off with the level of talent that is coming through.

Money didn't buy the last 3 premierships, damn hard work, dedication and determination is what won them. Players playing with broken ribs, on pain killers and putting the body on the line.

[OldLion]

To those pesky bitter-'n-twisted workmates - one word SCOREBOARD. If you feel a little down about it, come to a game and get stuck in. You're amongst friends and we've witnessed THREE GF triumphs - that can make you bulletproof.

[Roylion]

A few counter-arguments.

Originally posted by barelady

They argue that;
1.For many years Brisbane (and Sydney) were given a Zone selection in the draft, which was equivalent to an extra first round pick. Vossy, Ackers and a few other great players were picked up this way. I’m not sure how long this went on but they assure me it gave us a huge drafting advantage.

The Brisbane Lions has made ONE zone pick since 1997, that being Jamie Charman (and the Lions gave up the #29 draft pick to do so).

The Brisbane Bears made 9 zone selections in their 10 year history, three of which were from the NT. They had 12 Pre-Draft selections to set up the club. They had no zone selection until 1990 when they were allowed to take two players.

The Bears nine zone selections were:
1990 Roger Smith (NT)
1990 Darryl White (NT)
1992 Nathan Buckley* (NT)
1993 Michael Voss
1993 Steven Lawrence
1994 Jason Akermanis
1995 Danny Dickfos
1995 Brett Voss
1995 Derek Wirth

* Signed for one year under a deal made between the Bears and North Melbourne, before selected by the Bears. Traded for Selection 12 (Chris Scott). Who's the better player? Buckley or Scott?

Compare that with other clubs.

Fremantle had 13 Zone selections in 1995-96 and also 19 Pre-Draft Selections to form their side.

Port Adelaide? 29 zone selections in 1997! The Brisbane Bears had 9 in ten years. The Brisbane Lions have had 1 for which they gave up the #29 pick.

Port Adelaide's zone selections (Scott Bassett**, Rhett Biglands* Peter Burgoyne*, Tom Carr, Stephen Carter, Mark Conway, Jarrod Cotton, Stephen Daniels, Stuart Dew*, Donald Dickie, Nathan Eagleton**, Paul Evans, Nigel Fiegert, Fabian Francis, Josh Francou*, Scott Freeborn, Tom Harley**, Roger James*, Brendon Lade, Jake Lynch, Scott Mathews, Darren Meade, Andrew Osborn, Darryl Poole, Damian Squire, Nathan Steinberner, Warren Tredrea* Michael Wilson, Jonathon Yerbury.)

* current Port players
** current AFL players at other clubs

Some of these were fairly handy players for Port Adelaide since their entry into the competition.


Originally posted by barelady

2. The player retention salary cap extension is unwarranted. Players do not want to leave Brisbane so why are they still getting this allowance. Many great players have left Freo in recent years to go home, why don’t they get it. They say it has little to do with geography, more to do with success, i.e. struggling teams always lose players who want to go to winning teams, thus the allowance should go to all struggling teams.

Pleeese help me. I need solid rational counters to these arguments. I don’t want to be arrogant or rude when talking to them but would really love to put them back in their box with some rock solid answers.

- The Brisbane Lions have the lowest local content on their list with 27% of their senior list from Queensland. All other clubs bar Sydney have 50% or over. At the other end of the spectrum Carlton has 80% of their list from the state they are based in. Most young players coming to the Lions are from outside Queensland and as such the Lions have to pay higher wages in order to compete on a equal basis with the Victorian clubs. The AFL has confirmed that the contracts of Brisbane's mid-range players are, and have been for some time, significantly higher than those of other clubs, because of that reason. How else do Brisbane compete on an equal basis to retain drafted players. Note that Brisbane have not used the extra allowance to poach players from other clubs for no return to those clubs. Ask your workmates what the proportion of local content is at their club. They'll probably have no idea either. You can assure them every Victorian club has between 50%-80% of their list that is local content (i.e. from Victoria). Most have double or even triple what the Brisbane Lions have.

- Player cuts/sacrifices have helped keep the player group together. 12 senior players forfeited $500,000 worth of incentive payments collectively in 2002 to keep the player group together. As part of its salary cap rules, the AFL allows for higher payments for teams who make the finals, and some players agreed to forgo $10,000 worth of base payments for three finals payments of $3000 each. Each player therefore knocked off $10,000 of salary cap for that year. A recent article in the Melbourne Age suggested that Brisbane's senior players were getting paid far less than their market value and what they would be getting at other clubs...probably because the mid-range players are getting paid more because of the Lions' efforts to retain them. That's why the bonus is termed a "retention allowance"

- Paying extra is not necessarily tied to success. Carlton was outspending every club for many years in the modern era; Sydney spends substantially more money on players now due to their allowances; and Port Adelaide spend less on their list than most other clubs, yet are quite successful, (perhaps partly due to their generous zone concessions in 1997).

- Most clubs receive concessions/handouts in one form or the other. The veteran's rule provides some clubs such as Essendon or Carlton to be paying more on their total salary cap than Brisbane do, even including the Lions' salary cap bonus, simply because they have more highly paid veterans. If Brisbane elects to pay the 9% bonus then it comes from Brisbane's finances, not AFL coffers. Other clubs such as North Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs get several free multi-million dollar handouts from the AFL's "Competitive Balance Fund", which is AFL money.

- All clubs from this year have access to 5% salary cap bonus, should they meet the criteria. This makes the real difference in bonuses..4% of the salary cap for this year (9% in total), 2.5% for 2005 (7% in total) and 0% for Season 2006 ...all clubs (except Sydney) will have access to a 5% retention bonus.

- Ask your work-mates if their club has ever paid over the salary cap illegally. Essendon, Melbourne, Carlton and Fremantle have all breached the salary cap in recent years... and were paying significantly more than the cap allowed. In Carlton's case they were paying more than Brisbane's salary cap Inlcuding the concession), in a year in which they finished close to the bottom of the ladder. Other Victorian clubs rorted the salary cap at their will during the early 1990's but came clean under a moratorium, where they weren't penalised. In many cases Victorian clubs were believed to be paying far more than the Bears or Lions cap (including bonuses). Several premierships reputedly by won by Victorian clubs cheating on the salary cap.


Hope this helps.

[armagedon ready]

The Salary Cap is composed of many things. A basic figure for all clubs. Some spend 100% of salary Cap, some 0nly 92% because that is all they can afford.

Other payments that affect the payments to players are a $500,000 allowance which can come from players appearing in the media etc. Some such as Collingwood and Essendon can use all of this because they are the big club players that the media want I hardly think the limmited media opportunities in Brisbane would reach these heights. e.g Mal Michael was receiving $30,000 media payment when he was at Collingwood but has no supplement to his salary in Brisbane.
Clubs with Veteran players are allowed to claim only 50% of those players salaries under the Salary cap, so players such as Kouta, Buckley and Hird have their salaries backended into the period after they become veterans. It is reported that Kouta is being paid $1,000,000 so that only $500,000 comes under the salary cap.

This year Sydney and Brisbane are allowed to pay players 9% of the salary cap (about $540,000) to retain interstate players because their local players are only about 25% of the group.

I think a better figure to look at is TPP or Total player Payments which encompasses all of the avenues that clubs are allowed to use to pay players plus payments for Final Series etc
It was reported on Talking Football the night that Andrew Demetriou was a guest that these payments vary wildly and that the richer Clubs are able to pay players huge amounts more than the poorer Melbourne Clubs such as the Kangaroos and Bulldogs.
It was reported the Collingwood TPP for 2003 was $13.1 m .........
Brisbane $12.9m, ......... Essendon slightly less ......... but some poorer Melbourne Clubs were paying their players up to $2m less than those three clubs. Remember Brisbane and Collingwood players would have received extra payments for paying in a Grand Final.

[barelady]

Thank you very much everyone. I look forward to getting to work in the morning as I now have some great fact to throw at them and we had another blitzing win. Will get back to you if I have any further questions.

[ian68]

Ask how much "Free Publicity" does Collingwood get because of Eddie? Other clubs would need to pay $Thousands$ to gain the equivelent hype afforded Collingwood! Is this fair? Must certainly help when recruiting members in Vic!

Throw doubt into their argument and get them fighting amongst themselves and you will be OK!

Earlier in the year I shut down the St Kilda Band Wagon by claiming they were the sporting front of the Gay community. When asked for clarification, I merely mentioned that Molly is the No.1 ticket holder, that Butters looks like he is suffering from AIDS and if Thomas wasn't called a Poof at school then the sky aint blue.

[barelady]

Well guy, I had a great day. They all ran for cover when I mentioned total player payments. I dont think they knew what they were. The Geelong supporter started abusing the Carlton supporters (again) over the 1995 salary cap indescretions and mayhem ruled. Most satisfying!!!!
ian68. I dont have a problem with Eddie. He, or any body else, can go to whatever club they choose, to run for office. The AFL have no say in that. What the boys at work seem to get peeved at is that the AFL rules vary from club to club. The draft was bought in to stop teams falling too far behind and the salary cap was instigated to stop teams getting too good. Thus all teams should be under the same draft rules and the same salary cap. The rule changes that favour the northerners, according to my co workers, make it difficult for the southeners to compete. Its the AFL's so called rule inconsitencies that peev the punters at work not who's better at marketing/revenue raising or anything else outside the AFLs control.

[kimp]

WHat they always seem to forget is Sydney. Really that's the one word that needs to be said when salary cap comes up.

[Slax]

I actually heard something from Aker on the radio on Saturday, and it is very true about football and why Brisbane are ahead of the pack. Good clubs have good leadership groups, great clubs have great leadership groups.

Inside Brisbane's leadership group is: Voss, Aker, Lepper, Lynch, Lappin, Brown, Black all who could easily be a captain of a side. No other club has a leadership group that strong. If you look back at why Hawthorn was so successful in the 80s just look at the leadership group; Tuck, Mew, Ayres, Langford, Matthews/Platten (Platten started as Lethal retired), Brereton, Dipper all outright leaders who lead by example.

There is no reason why we can't have andother couple of seasons at the top with this lot, but just be weary of what happened to Hawthorn of not enough youngsters are blooded.