Crystal ball time - Crows in the next 3 yrs

[No 1 Draft Pick]

A thread for genuine Crows supporters only

A long long weekend down at Byron Bay got me thinking about our chances in the next few years.

Now I know there is more than a little uncertainty associated with the following but how does everyone see us placed over the next few years. We need to be realistic about our chances going forward and putting my 'stock picking' hat on I thought it could be an interesting exercise

2005
Prediction 10th Could sneak into the 8 if all goes well - Stevens fit and firing, good run with injuries and continued development of youngsters. Could fall bottom 4 if bad run with injuries to key players without sufficient quality depth in the squad. Midfield still probably top 4 in league, solid defence, question marks on forwards

2006
Prediction 6th - probably only Clarke retiring. Assume Big 5 (Roo, Macca, Goody, Edwards and Hart) still all playing. Youngsters starting to really deliver with over 50 games under the belt - hopefully strong spine in place including Rutten/ Mc Gregor/Watts

2007
Prediction 12th

This is the problem year. Its when our best players (top 5 above) hang up their boots or dont have the same influence. This could come either in 2007 or 2008. Assume it hits in 2007 we may take a decent tumble before picking up again in coming years

Your thoughts?

[dyertribe]

Yep, it's the most obvious conundrum we face in the next few years.

By the time some of our most promising kids - Watts, Reilly, Johncock, Rutten, Thompson, Hentschel, Monfries (?) - really begin to hit their straps, our previous handful of guns will be retiring or fading out, most likely prompting the need for another rebuilding phase.

That's what happens when you blow six or seven of your past nine first round draft picks.

[Crowked]

A thread for genuine Crows supporters only

A long long weekend down at Byron Bay got me thinking about our chances in the next few years.

Now I know there is more than a little uncertainty associated with the following but how does everyone see us placed over the next few years. We need to be realistic about our chances going forward and putting my 'stock picking' hat on I thought it could be an interesting exercise

2005
Prediction 10th Could sneak into the 8 if all goes well - Stevens fit and firing, good run with injuries and continued development of youngsters. Could fall bottom 4 if bad run with injuries to key players without sufficient quality depth in the squad. Midfield still probably top 4 in league, solid defence, question marks on forwards

2006
Prediction 6th - probably only Clarke retiring. Assume Big 5 (Roo, Macca, Goody, Edwards and Hart) still all playing. Youngsters starting to really deliver with over 50 games under the belt - hopefully strong spine in place including Rutten/ Mc Gregor/Watts

2007
Prediction 12th

This is the problem year. Its when our best players (top 5 above) hang up their boots or dont have the same influence. This could come either in 2007 or 2008. Assume it hits in 2007 we may take a decent tumble before picking up again in coming years

Your thoughts?

Too much can change over 3 years to make an accurate assessment. Although I agree with you on 2007, when the top 5 retire. I would be hoping the Crows are going to be doing a lot of poaching in the coming few years. There are plenty of quality SA lads out there and we have to go and get them or times are going to be tough for sure.

[Markthirtytwo]

Whilst I think you are probably right upto 2006 I think if
the drafting is right this and next year that is when these
choices should come to shine. Add that with the youngsters
we have now and have been mentioned before, this
might be something of a surprisingly good year. Top 5

BUT we have to get this years draft picks right.

[dyertribe]

Add that with the youngsters
we have now and have been mentioned before, this
might be something of a surprisingly good year. Top 5

Do you honestly believe so? :confused:

[RooDog]

Whilst I think you are probably right upto 2006 I think if
the drafting is right this and next year that is when these
choices should come to shine. Add that with the youngsters
we have now and have been mentioned before, this
might be something of a surprisingly good year. Top 5

BUT we have to get this years draft picks right.


can i have some of what you are smoking?? :eek:

its time for the crows to get realistic, that means us supporters too! :o

[PrideOf]

A long long weekend down at Byron Bay

can i have some of what you are smoking?? :eek:

:)

[Markthirtytwo]

Do you honestly believe so? :confused:

Yes I was at Byron Bay as well and had the same lunch and dinner as
#1DP

[RooDog]

Yes I was at Byron Bay as well and had the same lunch and dinner as
#1DP

maybe a few to many magic mushrooms why you were there? :confused:

[Mad Dog]

It's far too hard to predict....there are so many variables in the equation.
While we are flat out controlling our own list and destiny...remember there are 15 other sides whose dynamics affect our outcomes also.
I think we have a favourable draw in 2005 - and with minimal injuries we should be challenging for the 8.....This bothers me in a way because to the untrained eye - it could be seen as being a successful year...and that we are "on the way back".
IMO there will be even more work to do at the end of 2005 with list management and the draft....especially considering by then we should know whether our favourite 10 players (ie Bock/Doughty and Co) are up to it or not (.....Not!!!).
Then 2006 - the variables are
Other clubs
The Draw
Craigy and Co - and whether their coaching is sound / being well received / being put into play by intelligent footballers.
Development of Bock & co.
Development of #8, 24, 28, 40 & co.
Age and form of Macca / Roo / Edwards / etc
Development of Reilly / Johncock / Hentschel & co.
:confused:
Rebuilding this club after the neglect of the past few years will take some time...especially since it will take a couple of years to flush out the duds.
Also we must take into account that even in a perfect world....what is the best outcome you can hope for in percentage terms of players who you draft actually turning out to be guns ???....60 - 70% (realistically that would be top of the scale).....so there are still some mistakes to be made even with best intentions.
Bottom line - too hard to predict past next year.
We all need to be patient...I'd like to think we are top 4 by 2007......but there are just too many variables to be certain and the ebb and flow of windows of opportunity can be a fickle beast

[Eggzoi]

I don't think our chances are too bad for 2007. Hopefully by then we will have a decent midfield prepared (Stiffy, Reilly, Thompson, Pick 8, Jericho and Cooney (yes, hopeful).
While it's a hard prediction, and I don't see us challenging for a premiership any time soon, I don't think we could sink much lower than this year.
With Watts Hentschel to build a forward line around, and Rutten and Kenny to build a backline around, things don't look as bad for the future as some expect. The biggest problem is the players needed to fill in around those listed, which we don't really have yet.
That being said, 2008 should be much better than 07.

[Stiffy_18]

Whilst I think you are probably right upto 2006 I think if
the drafting is right this and next year that is when these
choices should come to shine. Add that with the youngsters
we have now and have been mentioned before, this
might be something of a surprisingly good year. Top 5

BUT we have to get this years draft picks right.
:eek:

Talk about being over-confident.

[Mad Dog]

I would like to add a bit more perspective to this little discussion - and don't call me pessimistic.....I'm just trying to put our situation in perspective. I did a very quick and dirty catagorisation of players on our list...the names in each catagory aren't important but I think it helps illustrate my point.
Catagory
1 - Senior players.....about 11
2 - up and comers who we all agree will we first 18 players......about 7
3 - gun or dud.....about 15
4 - newbies.....about 6...(that's Watts/Krueger/+ 4 draft picks)

thats a total of 39 for argument sake.

whats the average list turnover these days???...6 ??...tops

If we look at the end of 2005 - I predict that 3 of my "Senior Players" will retire (Clarke/Stevo/Massie).....straight away - that only leaves 3 to be turned over from our gun or dud catagory...(not much flexibility)

so the new count is

Senior Players...about 8
Up and Comers....about 7
Gun or Dud....still about 12
Newbies....around 12 if you add the six new draft picks.

at the end of 2006 - I predict that another 3 "Senior Players" will retire/be delisted..(Bassett/Torney/Welsh)....again that leaves only 3 to be turned over from or gun or dud list.

so the new count is

Senior Players...about 5
Up and Comers....about 7
Gun or Dud....still about 9
Newbies....around 18 if you add the six new draft picks.

So at the end of 2007........We have a list that still has about 9 of our "gun or duds" on the list......a scary thought.....hopefully our "up and comers" are stars...but more significantly about 18 players who have been drafted
then you get the possible retirement of the rest of the Senior players including Macca / Roo / Edwards / Goody......and all of this assumes that our draftees were bullseyes !!!!!

Conclusion....We would like to think that we will be able to turn over our list very quickly over the next few years - but I fear that pending retirements during that period will mean that we are only able to address that "dud or gun" catagory at a slower rate than we would like.

[Stiffy_18]

....what is the best outcome you can hope for in percentage terms of players who you draft actually turning out to be guns ???....60 - 70% (realistically that would be top of the scale).....
Realistically that would be too much to ask for. League average is that only 1 in 5 draftees will play 100 AFL games. 60-70% success rate would be FREAKY :p

[Mad Dog]

Realistically that would be too much to ask for. League average is that only 1 in 5 draftees will play 100 AFL games. 60-70% success rate would be FREAKY :p
agreed !!!!.....I was trying to be conservative to prove a point in terms of what we can expect over the next few years

[Stiffy_18]

I predict that 3 of my "Senior Players" will retire (Clarke/Stevo/Massie).....
Unless something major happens, I can't see Massie retiring at the age of 25 ;)

[Mad Dog]

Unless something major happens, I can't see Massie retiring at the age of 25 ;)
delist ???...can you see him getting any better ???

[Vic Crow]

I don't think our chances are too bad for 2007. Hopefully by then we will have a decent midfield prepared (Stiffy, Reilly, Thompson, Pick 8, Jericho and Cooney (yes, hopeful).
...With Watts Hentschel to build a forward line around, and Rutten and Kenny to build a backline around, things don't look as bad for the future as some expect. The biggest problem is the players needed to fill in around those listed, which we don't really have yet.
Optimistic, but some good points. The players you listed (and some hypotheticals [Pick 8, Cooney]) are the type we can build a club around. And I couldn't agree more that we need some cattle around them. With that said, I pretty much agree with the trend that once our big five or so retire we're in big trouble. As promising as Reilly, Thompson, Hentschel, McGregor etc. look, will they be our next Roo's, McLeod's, Goodwin's, Hart's and Edwards'?

[Eggzoi]

I don't think we've got a superstar, yet, (Roo, Macca) in there, but I do think we can get some very good quality players out of them, along the lines of Edwards and Goodwin. Not Brownlow winners, but match winners.

[No 1 Draft Pick]

Its true there is no real science to it but discouting the variables (draw, injury run, coaching performance) it stills leaves the underlying most important factor to a teams fortunes - the quality of player on the list

Cmon, I am keen for you guys to give me some numbers for the next 3 yrs. Mine were:

10 th
6 th
12 th

Anyone else willing to have a guess.

[Crowked]

Its true there is no real science to it but discouting the variables (draw, injury run, coaching performance) it stills leaves the underlying most important factor to a teams fortunes - the quality of player on the list

Cmon, I am keen for you guys to give me some numbers for the next 3 yrs. Mine were:

10 th
6 th
12 th

Anyone else willing to have a guess.


OK

10th
8th
5th

Not really educated but I think with the likes of Craig, Hamilton, Noble, Pyke and Stewart we will improve every year going forward. Hopefully to the point we could challenge for another flag, but its hard to see that just yet.

[Stiffy_18]

10th in 2005
8th in 2006
12th in 2007 (assuming that we have those retirements all in one year)

[Crowked]

10th in 2005
8th in 2006
12th in 2007 (assuming that we have those retirements all in one year)

Not much faith in the coaching panel or recruiting staff Stiffy?

[No 1 Draft Pick]

I do have faith in coaching/recruiting but this is a medium-long term benefit - not shortish term (short term being 2-3 yrs in this instance) IMO

The Crows creamed the young talent in their early yrs with the moratorium getting Mods/Smarty/Roo/Wellman/Rehn/Harty etc. But it took 1993 at the earliest for these young guys to start shining - and another few yrs to show full potential.

My point is even with excellent recruiting/coaching/develoment now it will take at least 2007, and possibly longer to really get the benefits. Longer term with astute drafting and good development we will be fine - its just the yrs 2007/2008 that scare me

[SpringChoke]

I would like to add a bit more perspective to this little discussion - and don't call me pessimistic.....I'm just trying to put our situation in perspective. I did a very quick and dirty catagorisation of players on our list...the names in each catagory aren't important but I think it helps illustrate my point.
Catagory
1 - Senior players.....about 11
2 - up and comers who we all agree will we first 18 players......about 7
3 - gun or dud.....about 15
4 - newbies.....about 6...(that's Watts/Krueger/+ 4 draft picks)

thats a total of 39 for argument sake.

whats the average list turnover these days???...6 ??...tops

If we look at the end of 2005 - I predict that 3 of my "Senior Players" will retire (Clarke/Stevo/Massie).....straight away - that only leaves 3 to be turned over from our gun or dud catagory...(not much flexibility)

so the new count is

Senior Players...about 8
Up and Comers....about 7
Gun or Dud....still about 12
Newbies....around 12 if you add the six new draft picks.

at the end of 2006 - I predict that another 3 "Senior Players" will retire/be delisted..(Bassett/Torney/Welsh)....again that leaves only 3 to be turned over from or gun or dud list.

so the new count is

Senior Players...about 5
Up and Comers....about 7
Gun or Dud....still about 9
Newbies....around 18 if you add the six new draft picks.

So at the end of 2007........We have a list that still has about 9 of our "gun or duds" on the list......a scary thought.....hopefully our "up and comers" are stars...but more significantly about 18 players who have been drafted
then you get the possible retirement of the rest of the Senior players including Macca / Roo / Edwards / Goody......and all of this assumes that our draftees were bullseyes !!!!!

Conclusion....We would like to think that we will be able to turn over our list very quickly over the next few years - but I fear that pending retirements during that period will mean that we are only able to address that "dud or gun" catagory at a slower rate than we would like.

Bloody hell, who started this thread. I feel ill.

So if we want to be a regular top 4 team in say 2007/2008 + we have to either trade aggressively or finish in the bottom 4?? Do you guys agree with that??

[Mad Dog]

does anybody think my analysis had some merit.....or was I just blowing wind out my ass ????
Seriously - I would be interested in your thoughts about the pace at which our list management will be possible given the polarisation in ability that we have at the moment. I think it's an important issue because a fair percentage here think we're going to be able to have a massive clean out at the end of 2005 that will solve our problems...which ain't gonna happen

fwiw
2005 - 8th
2006 - 9th
2007 - 12th

[Stiffy_18]

Not much faith in the coaching panel or recruiting staff Stiffy?
Not at all. I have a lot of faith in the recruiting department and coaching panel has the potential to surprise BUT I am being a realist.

Anyone that we draft will take 3 years to cement their spot and start producing week in week about by their 5th year. Thats not being pessimistic thats just working on league averages.

While I rate Monfries extremely highly, I think some people get carried away and think that he will be a saviour. He is just a piece of the puzzle and he won't play a hell of a lot of footy before 2007 where he will probably cement his spot in the side.

People think you can ruch these things when in reality you can't. You develop at a certain pace. Rushing the development will more often than not set you back and potentially destroy the career of a youngster. These cases are all around us.

Fact is our depth is non-existant and in 2-3 years time we have a HUGE chunk of our quality players retiring. Really if you look at it, just when we get some depth, about 5 class players hang up the boots and we are back to what we are now;)

[Stiffy_18]

delist ???...can you see him getting any better ???
I happen to be one of those people that rate Massie higher than a lot of others. He is a good inspirational players. I happen to rate Bode, Massie, Bassett and Torney a lot higher than a lot of people here. I think Jars458 is the only one that agrees with me on all 4 of those players.

[dyertribe]

Fact is our depth is non-existant and in 2-3 years time we have a HUGE chunk of our quality players retiring. Really if you look at it, just when we get some depth, about 5 class players hang up the boots and we are back to what we are now;)

Nail. Hammer...

[Mad Dog]

I happen to be one of those people that rate Massie higher than a lot of others. He is a good inspirational players. I happen to rate Bode, Massie, Bassett and Torney a lot higher than a lot of people here. I think Jars458 is the only one that agrees with me on all 4 of those players.

fwiw I think Bassett is a starting 18 player and will be re-born in 2005 in terms of his role and outlook. Being released from FB will be great for him and the side.
I have a lot of time for Torney and Massie but I think Torney, Massie, Begley and Mattner are competing for 1 half back flank possy and 1 bench possy between the 4 of them.
Now I've got Begley on the HBF and Mattner on the bench. I know what you think of Mattner and I suppose you would have Torney or Maasie in his place.
Bodey I've also got on the bench...should be a good impact player.
I think Torney and Massie are 2 of the best depth players a squad could have - and injuries will ultimately bring them into the 22.......but I reckon 2 years might just see Massie's body...and desire...to play AFL pretty much at the limit.

[Stiffy_18]

Bloody hell, who started this thread. I feel ill.

So if we want to be a regular top 4 team in say 2007/2008 + we have to either trade aggressively or finish in the bottom 4?? Do you guys agree with that??
Even by trading agressively, I think its a bit far fetched to think we will be a top 4 side (based on list quality alone). You can always have a good run with injuries and have a good draw, take a few people by surprise and finish top 4 (as we did in 2002) but I don't rate clubs like that. I like to look at their list as a true reflexion on their quality. Injuries happen and unless you have depth you can't be top 4. If we had the sort of injuries this year that Port had, we would have finished bottom 2.

Yes aggressive trading is required BUT lets not forget that we need to trade quality to get quality. I see people mentioning Cooney's name but how exactly do you plan on getting him. If we want him we would have to give up someone like Reilly and then some more. Eade is not stupid, he won't give you his best youngster for peanuts. Burton won't get you much in trade so he is better off being kept. Goodwin, McLeod, Edwards etc.. are all good players but their age doesn't make them attractive trade bait.

We lack pure quality and as such we can't affort to trade the little quality we have to get quality in return. Really say, trading Reilly and 2nd round pick for Cooney doesn't do much to our side.

There is no easy way out of this. Just some astute drafting, trading and some bloody hard work. There is no short cuts if you want to win the premiership but if you want to just make the 8 then thats pretty easy.

[RooDog]

Nail. Hammer...

finger? :confused: ;) :p

[SpringChoke]

does anybody think my analysis had some merit.....or was I just blowing wind out my ass ????
Seriously - I would be interested in your thoughts about the pace at which our list management will be possible given the polarisation in ability that we have at the moment. I think it's an important issue because a fair percentage here think we're going to be able to have a massive clean out at the end of 2005 that will solve our problems...which ain't gonna happen

fwiw
2005 - 8th
2006 - 9th
2007 - 12th

********e mate. Unfortunalety, I do agree with you. Is there anyway we can avoid this?? I would have thought some aggressive trading this year would have been a start. Craigy's comments after the trade also worry me. He seems to be showing certain players too much loyalty.

[SpringChoke]

Fact is our depth is non-existant and in 2-3 years time we have a HUGE chunk of our quality players retiring. Really if you look at it, just when we get some depth, about 5 class players hang up the boots and we are back to what we are now;)

So maybe it's time to start giving some of the kids more game time. Use the likes of Bassett, Goodwin and even Mcleod off the bench or play them in pockets/flanks. I know, then we have the problem of burning out the kids. We are in a pretty delicate situation.

I ask again, how the hell did Reid keep his job.

[slappy]

Burton won't get you much in tradedisagree, i reckon he's the sort off flashy player that would get more than he is really worth

trading Reilly and 2nd round pick for Cooney doesn't do much to our side.but that might be out of our hands if reilly asks to go home


on the upside, if 5 quality players retire close to each other then surely but surely we will have the $$$ to lure some ready made quality

[Mad Dog]

********e mate. Unfortunalety, I do agree with you. Is there anyway we can avoid this?? I would have thought some aggressive trading this year would have been a start. Craigy's comments after the trade also worry me. He seems to be showing certain players too much loyalty.
IMO we just need to chip away at it over the next 3 years. We need to play our best side available, and let the youngsters force their way in to the side otherwise we will lose respect, membership, faith of the players, and also burn out the youngsters. When you look at it, at least we have made a resonable start with Rutten, Kenny, Begley, Reilly, Trent, and Thommo all first 18 players.
Hopefully we can find another 3 or 4 names by the end of 2005.

[Mad Dog]

disagree, i reckon he's (Burton) the sort off flashy player that would get more than he is really worth


you must be joking.....

[slappy]

you must be joking.....im not sayin he's good u know

[Fergus]

I happen to be one of those people that rate Massie higher than a lot of others. He is a good inspirational players. I happen to rate Bode, Massie, Bassett and Torney a lot higher than a lot of people here. I think Jars458 is the only one that agrees with me on all 4 of those players.
I'm almost in the club.

Bode is a natural hard ball winner - one of our few. Unfortunately his disposal lets him down. He would make the playing 22 of my side from our list though.

I have always rated Massie, Bassett and Torney - I just sometimes laugh at Bassett's initial pain threshold, or maybe I should be admiring his powers of recuperation??

[Stiffy_18]

disagree, i reckon he's the sort off flashy player that would get more than he is really worth
If thats the case why didn't any clubs bite during the trade period when he most definetly was put up for a trade. At most he will get you 2nd round pick. He is injury-prone athlete playing footy. Burton at his best is a match winner but his best is once in a blue moon. No one wants a player who burns the ball 75% of the time. He better off keeping that he is trading. If you look at some history, Burton played a full season only once and that was back in 2002 when he played majority of the year as a FF.

but that might be out of our hands if reilly asks to go home

People have been mentioning Reilly and Cooney as part of the same midfield but you are right if Reilly wants to go then that trade would be good but wouldn't be a win trade. It will be one of those win-win situations.

on the upside, if 5 quality players retire close to each other then surely but surely we will have the $$$ to lure some ready made quality You think????

Don't you think that the likes of Hentschel, Johncock, Reilly, Watts, Rutten etc.. would also get a pay rise. We are all thinking these kids are the foundation of the club (and rightly so) and we expect them to improve and be the gun players but we forget that they would need to be paid a hell of a lot more than they are getting now if they get to the level that many here are expecting.

We might have some money but I doubt we would have bucketloads of it. So even if we say offer Cooney $500K a year (2 year deal) which would be suicide IMHO, how do you plan on getting him??????? The only chance you can get him on the "cheap" is if you have 1st pick in the pre-season draft and you hold another club to ransom.Getting pick 1 in the pre-season means getting a wooden spoon. Something none of us here want.

It also brings another question into the equation, if the only motivation for a player to come to your club is money, then he is making a move for all the wrong reasons. I know that I don't want a player who want to play for my club because we payed him more than any other club. What happens when his contract runs out, does he hold a club for ransom??????

There are SO MANY more factor in this than just offering $$$ and getting what you want. You still have to trade something for him to get him. Money the player gets means sweet ******** all when it comes to the negotiations between the 2 clubs. Rawlings was going to get better money at Kangaroos a couple of years ago and he ended up at Western Bulldogs for less. Money is an important factor but its not the only one and certainly not the most important one.

[Stiffy_18]

I just sometimes laugh at Bassett's initial pain threshold, or maybe I should be admiring his powers of recuperation??
:D

He is a shocker when it comes to that. You've got to love his dummy spits though :D:p

[dyertribe]

I just sometimes laugh at Bassett's initial pain threshold, or maybe I should be admiring his powers of recuperation??

:D

I can't remember who we were playing at the time, but as he was being driven past on the mini-ambulance after he broke his leg a few years ago, he managed to stick his hand up and give us a wave.

I thought that was classy, considering.

[No 1 Draft Pick]

Stiffy re money I agree we dont want players joining our club just due to big money, BUT by offering Cooney a big salary next yr (perhaps 350-400K - well over market value for a 2 yr player) it could allow us to pick him up in the PSD if other clubs arent prepared to pay him this - ie perhaps 100-150K more than his market value which others will baulk at.

Cooney looks real quality, and also a Crows supporter from my understanding - sure he would be overpaid (at least for the first 2 yrs with us) but that doesnt mean he wouldnt be playing for us for the right motivation

[Skippy_14]

Predictions are stupid. Why don't you just wait 'til it all happens 'cos most of the time they end up being wrong and jinx people. Or something. I feel weird...

[Mad Dog]

It also brings another question into the equation, if the only motivation for a player to come to your club is money, then he is making a move for all the wrong reasons. I know that I don't want a player who want to play for my club because we payed him more than any other club. What happens when his contract runs out, does he hold a club for ransom??????

Ottens comma Brad dot

[dyertribe]

Predictions are stupid. Why don't you just wait 'til it all happens 'cos most of the time they end up being wrong and jinx people. Or something. I feel weird...

Does that include tipping competitions or discussing games before they occur?

[Mad Dog]

Predictions are stupid. Why don't you just wait 'til it all happens 'cos most of the time they end up being wrong and jinx people. Or something. I feel weird...
take another drag...you'll be fine

[dyertribe]

take another drag...you'll be fine

I was going to wait until she was legal before unleashing a brutal [sic] comment such as that, lest I be labelled a bully.

[Eggzoi]

Stiffy re money I agree we dont want players joining our club just due to big money, BUT by offering Cooney a big salary next yr (perhaps 350-400K - well over market value for a 2 yr player) it could allow us to pick him up in the PSD if other clubs arent prepared to pay him this - ie perhaps 100-150K more than his market value which others will baulk at.

Cooney looks real quality, and also a Crows supporter from my understanding - sure he would be overpaid (at least for the first 2 yrs with us) but that doesnt mean he wouldnt be playing for us for the right motivation
That's how I was thinking.
And from what I've heard, he was/is a huge supporter.

[dyertribe]

That's how I was thinking.
And from what I've heard, he was/is a huge supporter.

Yeah but so were/are the Cornes boys and Pavlich...

[Stiffy_18]

Stiffy re money I agree we dont want players joining our club just due to big money, BUT by offering Cooney a big salary next yr (perhaps 350-400K - well over market value for a 2 yr player) it could allow us to pick him up in the PSD if other clubs arent prepared to pay him this - ie perhaps 100-150K more than his market value which others will baulk at.

Cooney looks real quality, and also a Crows supporter from my understanding - sure he would be overpaid (at least for the first 2 yrs with us) but that doesnt mean he wouldnt be playing for us for the right motivation
I agree BUT every club in the land knows the quality of Cooney and I am sure that a lot of clubs would move heaven and earth to free up some cap space to get Cooney even if its over the odds.

We are forgetting that other clubs wants to improve and would be just as aggressive as we are. Lets put that scenario in this this year. If Cooney was entering the pre-season draft and put a price of 350-400K on his head, don't you think that the likes of Richmond, Hawks, and Collingwood would be thinking the same way we are thinking and pick up Cooney for that money because it wouldn't cost them anything in terms of trade value.

Honestly, fantasy tells us it would work but reality tells us otherwise. With offering that much money to a young player it also has other affects. It puts enourmous ammount of pressure on the kid to really earn that money. It creates uneasiness between the squad because someone who is on $150K would think that he is worth $250K because Cooney is worth $350-400K.

It is NOT as simple as some of you make it out to be. By all means go out and apply that strategy BUT don't discount that that other clubs are just as keen and we are not the only ones with $$$ to throw around. Collingwood would have just as much, if not more than we do.

[crows98]

That's how I was thinking.
And from what I've heard, he was/is a huge supporter.


RE: Cooney

So was Pav and that didn’t entice him home.

[crows98]

Yeah but so were/are the Cornes boys and Pavlich...

The Cornes boy have detested the club since they gave their old man the flick, Chad has gone on record and stated that he wanted to go to the power.

[Mad Dog]

I agree BUT every club in the land knows the quality of Cooney and I am sure that a lot of clubs would move heaven and earth to free up some cap space to get Cooney even if its over the odds.

We are forgetting that other clubs wants to improve and would be just as aggressive as we are. Lets put that scenario in this this year. If Cooney was entering the pre-season draft and put a price of 350-400K on his head, don't you think that the likes of Richmond, Hawks, and Collingwood would be thinking the same way we are thinking and pick up Cooney for that money because it wouldn't cost them anything in terms of trade value.

Honestly, fantasy tells us it would work but reality tells us otherwise. With offering that much money to a young player it also has other affects. It puts enourmous ammount of pressure on the kid to really earn that money. It creates uneasiness between the squad because someone who is on $150K would think that he is worth $250K because Cooney is worth $350-400K.

It is NOT as simple as some of you make it out to be. By all means go out and apply that strategy BUT don't discount that that other clubs are just as keen and we are not the only ones with $$$ to throw around. Collingwood would have just as much, if not more than we do.

all clubs would sell their mothers to do that deal.....Captains would be renaming themselves Whiskers in a nano-second.
Trying to buy Cooney and the like is not a credible strategy for a club to deliberately pursue. Sure these things happen from time to time.....but it's not a policy direction IMO

[baaaallllll]

I will be 3 years older and the Crows still won't have won another flag.

on the other topic of Bode, Torney, Massie ect.

Bode - was a shining light a few years ago, what has happened?
Massie - was good up until last year
Torney - Should play for Port :), has the basic AFL skills required except his mind is too slow, decision making is questionable
Bassett - looks so much better when not playing on the key forward

[No 1 Draft Pick]

OK whats to stop this situation.

Assume : Cooney loves the Crows and wants to come home at the end of 2005 - all the right reasons. He is a potential future captain of the AFCand Brownlow Medalist

Assume : After another promising season his market value is 250K

We make an arrangement with him - put a big price on your head - 450K and we will pick you up on a 2 yr contract. He is being overpaid 200k/yr x 2 yrs = 400K. No other club is prepared to pay such huge money as he is 'way over the money'. The Crows pick him up in the PSD irrespective of what pick number we have in the PSD

At the same time we tell Cooney that after the 2 yr contract end we need to 'recoup' some of this money and his next contract (perhaps a 3-4 yr contract) will be approx 50-100K a yr LESS THAN market value.

So who wins and who loses?

CROWS - get a former number 1 draft pick and possible future captain/Brownlow Medalist. Over the term of both contracts outlined above he is only costing us market value or not much above

Only negative (could be a big one) for Crows is impact on other players

COONEY - gets to return home and play for team he loves whilst being paid market value or above

BULLDOGS - lose as they get didley for him

The above scenario is NOT contrary to any AFL rule - Freo almost did this with Carr this yr by contemplating offering him 500-600K and getting him in the PSD

Thoughts?

[Fergus]

The Cornes boy have detested the club since they gave their old man the flick, Chad has gone on record and stated that he wanted to go to the power.
As did Scott Thompson but he's now playing for us.

[Skippy_14]

Eh.

[slappy]

If thats the case why didn't any clubs bite during the trade period when he most definetly was put up for a trade. At most he will get you 2nd round pickfirstly i didnt realise burton was offered up, but the thing is he has played at one time some really good footy both up forward and in the middle. also he is pretty marketable with his birdman/speccie gimmick, which is a plus for the smaller clubs at least.

Don't you think that the likes of Hentschel, Johncock, Reilly, Watts, Rutten etc.. would also get a pay rise.ofcourse they will but say johncock (the most established of those guys) isnt in the same class as roo or macca and never will be so shouldnt automatically take their place in the pay structure

thats i guess what im sayin, apart from hentschel and maybe reilly, i cant see any of them being as good so we need to bring in 1/2 gun players at the top with the $$$


We might have some money but I doubt we would have bucketloads of it. So even if we say offer Cooney $500K a year (2 year deal) which would be suicide IMHO, how do you plan on getting him???????cooney is obviously a top quality player and from adelaide ... he is worth splashing the cash for. also what if he says he wants to go home? the bulldogs are screwed and theyll go for the best deal (port/crows) rather than get nothing

[SpringChoke]

take another drag...you'll be fine

"Hurry Sonny, Skips eaten all the Tim Tams again".

[SpringChoke]

I agree BUT every club in the land knows the quality of Cooney and I am sure that a lot of clubs would move heaven and earth to free up some cap space to get Cooney even if its over the odds.

We are forgetting that other clubs wants to improve and would be just as aggressive as we are. Lets put that scenario in this this year. If Cooney was entering the pre-season draft and put a price of 350-400K on his head, don't you think that the likes of Richmond, Hawks, and Collingwood would be thinking the same way we are thinking and pick up Cooney for that money because it wouldn't cost them anything in terms of trade value.

Honestly, fantasy tells us it would work but reality tells us otherwise. With offering that much money to a young player it also has other affects. It puts enourmous ammount of pressure on the kid to really earn that money. It creates uneasiness between the squad because someone who is on $150K would think that he is worth $250K because Cooney is worth $350-400K.

It is NOT as simple as some of you make it out to be. By all means go out and apply that strategy BUT don't discount that that other clubs are just as keen and we are not the only ones with $$$ to throw around. Collingwood would have just as much, if not more than we do.

God this a disappointing subject. I wonder if the powers that be at the AFC also question how we got ourselves up sh*t creek?? Surely, we can't just blame Ayres?

[Eggzoi]

RE: Cooney

So was Pav and that didn’t entice him home.
True, but different minds think different things. Also, Pav likes it in Perth, from what I hear, Cooney doesn't like it at the Doggies. (was looking very depressed at training the other day)
Also, how many clubs would pay over the odds for a player who wants to come back to SA? Would even Collingwood be prepared to pay someone that much only to see them go 2 years later?
Yes, it's not that likely that we can get it done, but it's a possibility.

[crows98]

True, but different minds think different things. Also, Pav likes it in Perth, from what I hear, Cooney doesn't like it at the Doggies. (was looking very depressed at training the other day)
Also, how many clubs would pay over the odds for a player who wants to come back to SA? Would even Collingwood be prepared to pay someone that much only to see them go 2 years later?
Yes, it's not that likely that we can get it done, but it's a possibility.


I would be very happy to see Adam Cooney in a tri coloured crows jumper in 2006, which would be a very good coup right up there with getting Mr D Jarman home.

[RooDog]

take another drag...you'll be fine

:D

but now if i had said something like that id be a bully picking on a young girl :o :p

[Stiffy_18]

OK whats to stop this situation.

Assume : Cooney loves the Crows and wants to come home at the end of 2005 - all the right reasons. He is a potential future captain of the AFCand Brownlow Medalist

Assume : After another promising season his market value is 250K

We make an arrangement with him - put a big price on your head - 450K and we will pick you up on a 2 yr contract. He is being overpaid 200k/yr x 2 yrs = 400K. No other club is prepared to pay such huge money as he is 'way over the money'. The Crows pick him up in the PSD irrespective of what pick number we have in the PSD

At the same time we tell Cooney that after the 2 yr contract end we need to 'recoup' some of this money and his next contract (perhaps a 3-4 yr contract) will be approx 50-100K a yr LESS THAN market value.

So who wins and who loses?

CROWS - get a former number 1 draft pick and possible future captain/Brownlow Medalist. Over the term of both contracts outlined above he is only costing us market value or not much above

Only negative (could be a big one) for Crows is impact on other players

COONEY - gets to return home and play for team he loves whilst being paid market value or above

BULLDOGS - lose as they get didley for him

The above scenario is NOT contrary to any AFL rule - Freo almost did this with Carr this yr by contemplating offering him 500-600K and getting him in the PSD

Thoughts?
Again, as I stated in my prevous post thats scenario is a chance of happening BUT its very unlikely.

Do you honestly think that other clubs that have picks before us wouldn't clear some cap room to get someone like Cooney without giving anything at the trade table.

Seriously, do you honestly think that other clubs would overlook him if he entered the PSD when they could afford him?????? The fact that he wants to go home (in that scenario) means sweet ******** all. He enters the draft so he is taking a punt where he ends up with. So many players don't end up where they want to.

[Stiffy_18]

firstly i didnt realise burton was offered up, but the thing is he has played at one time some really good footy both up forward and in the middle. also he is pretty marketable with his birdman/speccie gimmick, which is a plus for the smaller clubs at least. He was an there was no takers. They were a couple of clubs trying to get him for the cheap but thankfully we have not over-reacted and did the right thing in keeping him. He is not as marketable as you think. Tell me how many speccies has he taken in the last 2 years??????? Of the top of my head maybe 5. How many times has he gone for it????? Probably 105:p

ofcourse they will but say johncock (the most established of those guys) isnt in the same class as roo or macca and never will be so shouldnt automatically take their place in the pay structure

thats i guess what im sayin, apart from hentschel and maybe reilly, i cant see any of them being as good so we need to bring in 1/2 gun players at the top with the $$$
And I agree BUT even if they don't get the same money as Roo or McLeod etc... they wouldn't get less than $350K if they prove to be solid players. We should have some money but not bucketloads that some are suggesting.

cooney is obviously a top quality player and from adelaide ... he is worth splashing the cash for. also what if he says he wants to go home? the bulldogs are screwed and theyll go for the best deal (port/crows) rather than get nothing
No question he is worth splashing cash for BUT as I said earlier, him getting a better deal from Adelaide in terms of money means sweet ******** all when the 2 clubs start negotiating. Bulldogs will want the best deal and in all honesty Port have more bait and players that they can afford to lose than we do. To get someone like Cooney via trade you have to give up something of quality. As I said, if we want Cooney then we have to part with one or more of Johncock, Reilly, Watts, Rutten etc...

Money is an important factor but its not the most important or the deciding factor when it actually comes to trading between the 2 clubs.

[Stiffy_18]

True, but different minds think different things. Also, Pav likes it in Perth, from what I hear, Cooney doesn't like it at the Doggies. (was looking very depressed at training the other day)
Also, how many clubs would pay over the odds for a player who wants to come back to SA? Would even Collingwood be prepared to pay someone that much only to see them go 2 years later?
Yes, it's not that likely that we can get it done, but it's a possibility.
Why wouldn't they?????

Even if he stays for one year you will get something for them in terms of trade value. Tell me if Chris Judd went into the pre-season draft and put a price on his head that you could afford, and you have a pick before anyone else would you pick him up??????? I sure as hell would. Even if he wants to leave after a year, at least you will get something for him in trade value. Even if its an extra 1st round pick you would do it.

Club would have a lot more to gain than you think. Player would have a lot to lose.

[Wayne's-World]

In the next 3 years we need LUCK !!!!!

Don't mean that in a pessimistic way, but literally.

1. Some youngsters to develop beyond our current expectations.
2. Some "lucky" draft choices ie Johncock with pick 67.
3. No more Angwins, Gilligans, Ross's.
4. No more 3 teams getting priority picks the only year we're down the ladder.
5. Some father/son pickups (normally first round) in place of our 3rd round draft choice.
6. A good coach ;)
7. Striking gold with some players taken on our rookie list.

With Luck who knows :)

[Stiffy_18]

In the next 3 years we need LUCK !!!!!

Don't mean that in a pessimistic way, but literally.

1. Some youngsters to develop beyond our current expectations.
2. Some "lucky" draft choices ie Johncock with pick 67.
3. No more Angwins, Gilligans, Ross's.
4. No more 3 teams getting priority picks the only year we're down the ladder.
5. Some father/son pickups (normally first round) in place of our 3rd round draft choice.
6. A good coach ;)
7. Striking gold with some players taken on our rookie list.

With Luck who knows :)
Very true but you can't count on luck.

Hard work and some astute drafting and trading and we will be alright ;)

[Wayne's-World]

Very true but you can't count on luck.

Hard work and some astute drafting and trading and we will be alright ;)
I understand what your saying a generally your correct BUT

1. Just about to recruit Gibbs Father/Son - suddenly does a medial ligament - never the same.
2. 3 teams finishing to get priority picks.
3. Recruiting Krueger - trains the house down Ps - almost certain to make his debut at some stage of 2005 - breaks down and hardly plays.

No, hardwork counts, but in AFL footy with the socialistic system in place luck is even more important IMO.

[Macca19]

OK whats to stop this situation.

Assume : Cooney loves the Crows and wants to come home at the end of 2005 - all the right reasons. He is a potential future captain of the AFCand Brownlow Medalist

Assume : After another promising season his market value is 250K

We make an arrangement with him - put a big price on your head - 450K and we will pick you up on a 2 yr contract. He is being overpaid 200k/yr x 2 yrs = 400K. No other club is prepared to pay such huge money as he is 'way over the money'. The Crows pick him up in the PSD irrespective of what pick number we have in the PSD

At the same time we tell Cooney that after the 2 yr contract end we need to 'recoup' some of this money and his next contract (perhaps a 3-4 yr contract) will be approx 50-100K a yr LESS THAN market value.

So who wins and who loses?

CROWS - get a former number 1 draft pick and possible future captain/Brownlow Medalist. Over the term of both contracts outlined above he is only costing us market value or not much above

Only negative (could be a big one) for Crows is impact on other players

COONEY - gets to return home and play for team he loves whilst being paid market value or above

BULLDOGS - lose as they get didley for him

The above scenario is NOT contrary to any AFL rule - Freo almost did this with Carr this yr by contemplating offering him 500-600K and getting him in the PSD

Thoughts?

Thats all well and good but your kidding if you think the Crows will be the only club at a particular time that can afford to pay a certain player over the odds. There will be another 1-2-3 clubs that will have a lot of cap space and can afford to pay that sort of money for someone. There are no certainties.

[Wayne's-World]

Thats all well and good but your kidding if you think the Crows will be the only club at a particular time that can afford to pay a certain player over the odds. There will be another 1-2-3 clubs that will have a lot of cap space and can afford to pay that sort of money for someone. There are no certainties.
I can't think of the last time money surplus was used to "buy" a player.

It appears to be largely irrelevant IMO, as it only works in the PS draft.

[Stiffy_18]

I understand what your saying a generally your correct BUT

1. Just about to recruit Gibbs Father/Son - suddenly does a medial ligament - never the same.
2. 3 teams finishing to get priority picks.
3. Recruiting Krueger - trains the house down Ps - almost certain to make his debut at some stage of 2005 - breaks down and hardly plays.

No, hardwork counts, but in AFL footy with the socialistic system in place luck is even more important IMO.
In life you make your own luck more often than not. Sure the things you mentioned are out of your control but they are hardly going to be the reasons to make or break the club.

[SpringChoke]

Again, as I stated in my prevous post thats scenario is a chance of happening BUT its very unlikely.

Do you honestly think that other clubs that have picks before us wouldn't clear some cap room to get someone like Cooney without giving anything at the trade table.

Seriously, do you honestly think that other clubs would overlook him if he entered the PSD when they could afford him?????? The fact that he wants to go home (in that scenario) means sweet ******** all. He enters the draft so he is taking a punt where he ends up with. So many players don't end up where they want to.

It would be nice to think we could also develop our own talent. I hope we don't go down the road again of paying the earth ( whether it be in dollars or early draft picks ) for any player. Look where it's got us to date.

[Stiffy_18]

Our gun ruckman of the future :)

http://afc.com.au/cp2/c2/webi/person/293725ak.JPG

*fingers crossed* :(

[Wayne's-World]

In life you make your own luck more often than not. Sure the things you mentioned are out of your control but they are hardly going to be the reasons to make or break the club.
Disagree.

Blights 3rd year at the club was ruined by injury - bad luck or did we not make our luck that year.
Was Rehn and Marsh (yes he could play then) doing knees bad luck or again gain we didn't make our own luck again.

I could go on.

As I said hard work, a successful culture is vital, but in this system of AFL - Luck is the dominant factor.

[Stiffy_18]

I can't think of the last time money surplus was used to "buy" a player.

It appears to be largely irrelevant IMO, as it only works in the PS draft.
And only if you have a VERY VERY early pick

[Macca19]

Its a pretty good thread. The Crows in my opinion are gonna be a lottery in the next few years.

Theyc ould really thrive under Craig, the youngsters come on as expected and some good results will follow.

Or they could struggle and take a while to develop under Craig.

05 - Could finish anywhere from 5th to 13th. I reckon the Crows will surprise plenty next year and finish about 6th after the minor round. Anything can happen from there but i think you will make the semis then get knocked out.

06 - Slightly worse than 05. Maybe finish 8th, get knocked out in the first week.

07 - anything could happen. As many have said it depends on retirements and how well the Crows can trade/draft in the next few years. If they struggle without Roo/Mcleod etc. then it could be bottom 4. If they do ok without them them then 6-8 again.

[Wayne's-World]

And only if you have a VERY VERY early pick
But can you name a recent player lured by money - maybe Ottens, but he wasn;t lured as much as he left Richmond for downsizing his contact.

[Stiffy_18]

But can you name a recent player lured by money - maybe Ottens, but he wasn;t lured as much as he left Richmond for downsizing his contact.
See people think that Ottens left for money but they are wrong. According to Fantasia if he went to Sydney he would have gone for the money. Geelong offered less that Sydney and just marginally better than Richmond;)

If you are trading for someone money makes no difference in the whole trading process. Its a strategy you use in a pre-season draft if you have say top 2 or 3 picks. Even then its a risk.

[Stiffy_18]

Its a pretty good thread. The Crows in my opinion are gonna be a lottery in the next few years.

Theyc ould really thrive under Craig, the youngsters come on as expected and some good results will follow.

Or they could struggle and take a while to develop under Craig.

05 - Could finish anywhere from 5th to 13th. I reckon the Crows will surprise plenty next year and finish about 6th after the minor round. Anything can happen from there but i think you will make the semis then get knocked out.

06 - Slightly worse than 05. Maybe finish 8th, get knocked out in the first week.

07 - anything could happen. As many have said it depends on retirements and how well the Crows can trade/draft in the next few years. If they struggle without Roo/Mcleod etc. then it could be bottom 4. If they do ok without them them then 6-8 again.
Thats taking the best case scenario where everything goes our way.

As I said earlier, IF we have a very good run with injuries, the youngstres come on as we expect and key players are in form and with our draw we could surprise many and finish as high up as top 4 (just like we did in 2002).

I guess I am trying to be a bit more realistic and expect the injuries to happen, expect some "second" year blues from some players. I expect some players to stay the same, others to improve and some to go backwards.

It will certainly be a very interesting year for us no doubt.

[Wayne's-World]

See people think that Ottens left for money but they are wrong. According to Fantasia if he went to Sydney he would have gone for the money. Geelong offered less that Geelong and just marginally better than Richmond;)

If you are trading for someone money makes no difference in the whole trading process. Its a strategy you use in a pre-season if you have say top 2 or 3 picks. Even then its a risk.
I agree thats why I an't understand the perception that having room to move in your TPP is that beneficial - sometimes yes, but in the rebuild process I would have to say minimal.

[SpringChoke]

Our gun ruckman of the future :)

http://afc.com.au/cp2/c2/webi/person/293725ak.JPG

*fingers crossed* :(

Just of interest, have any of our past rookie listed players gone onto be good players for the club, excluding Rutten??

[Stiffy_18]

Just of interest, have any of our past rookie listed players gone onto be good players for the club, excluding Rutten??
Marsh :p.

Not that I can think off. I know Doughty came off Rookie List, do did Mattner and Bock :eek:

[crowsarethebest]

i think we'll be right if we get our trading, drafting and delisting spot on for the next few years. Maybe we can lure cooney, waters or butler next year...

[maccas_no1]

I think as a club the goal will be steady improvement, i think half the promblen at the club over the last two years was because we drafted carey, every supporter had only eye's for the premiership. That focus has well and truley gone we need to just continually make sure we have good young players coming through, not go for stop-gap measures. We have good youngster's Reilly,Bock,Hentshel,Jericho,Schback etc this years draft we definately need a ruckman, 2005 will definately be Clarke's last, Biglands is a good ruckman but needs a good back up. we have enough quality mid-feilder's at the minute so that is of less urgency, 2006 and beyond. we also need to recruit some good defender's also.

2005: I would see as an improvement on this year 8-10th, 11-13 wins.

2006: Further improvment, hopefully around 6th even maybe top 4 but I would be happy with 6th, 13-15 wins

2007: Yeah this could be tough to judge, it will either be a 2006 season or a 2004 season, hard to judge but will depend on drafting and the development of the younger players.

I think the club has a better assistant coaching panel than in previous years, so I hope that will hold us in good stead.

[dyertribe]

2005: I would see as an improvement on this year 8-10th, 11-13 wins.

2006: Further improvment, hopefully around 6th even maybe top 4 but I would be happy with 6th, 13-15 wins

It's worth remembering that our Premiership sides of 97/98 could only manage 13 minor round wins - and our all-time best finish achieved in 2002, is only 15 wins.

And with all due respect to our current crop, those squads had more talent in their left walnut.

[macca23]

Its a pretty good thread. The Crows in my opinion are gonna be a lottery in the next few years.

Theyc ould really thrive under Craig, the youngsters come on as expected and some good results will follow.

Or they could struggle and take a while to develop under Craig.

05 - Could finish anywhere from 5th to 13th. I reckon the Crows will surprise plenty next year and finish about 6th after the minor round. Anything can happen from there but i think you will make the semis then get knocked out.

06 - Slightly worse than 05. Maybe finish 8th, get knocked out in the first week.

07 - anything could happen. As many have said it depends on retirements and how well the Crows can trade/draft in the next few years. If they struggle without Roo/Mcleod etc. then it could be bottom 4. If they do ok without them them then 6-8 again.

IMO the best summary so far of what's likely to happen. it's an absolute lottery as to what will happen in the next 3 years.

05 - Craig is going to concentrate from the word go on style of game and ball skills, particularly disposal. I couldn't think of two more areas that we consistently fked up in lumps last year, and if the AFC have made a good choice in Craig, then I expect us to make the lower part of the 8, somewhere between 6 and 8. And rissoled as Macca19 suggests.

06 - Much the same as 05 IMO. The positive could be that Watts might be ready to have an influence at AFL level by then, and we could even improve somewhat.

07 - 3 drafts and 2 trade periods away. God only knows. We know the negatives - we just don't know the positives that may or may not happen. I'll run with Macca again on this one.

Of course, on the other hand, if Craig proves to be a dud coach ............ then :( :eek:

[beagle2]

2005: I would see as an improvement on this year 8-10th, 11-13 wins.

2006: Further improvment, hopefully around 6th even maybe top 4 but I would be happy with 6th, 13-15 wins

Where is all this improvement coming from All our best players are past
the apogees of their careers? Four draft picks historically only results in one good player meanwhile those with priority picks should show faster improvement

[Stiffy_18]

The positive could be that Watts might be ready to have an influence at AFL level by then
I think his development will be slowed down somewhat. He is going to have an interrupted pre-season due to his OP :(

I am hoping for Krueger to step up :)

[McLeod23]

We need a lot to go right for us to be a 'power club' from 2007 -2010ish, as well as managing the retirements of the Big 5 as well as possible.

More than anything we need to draft well. Late picks that turn to gold, like Stiffy, need to happen, and for this to occur we actually need to have picks (in both the National and Pre-Season Drafts) to use.

So cutting deadwood (I'll let you guys make up your own minds what players fall under this category at present) is a must, so that we have room to move in regard to using our picks.

We also need some decent list management, something that, IMHO, has been pretty pathetic over the last few years. Ever since we won the flags really, we haven't had any direction; just kept semi-stocking up to compliment our gun midfield.

[SpringChoke]

10th in 2005
8th in 2006
12th in 2007 (assuming that we have those retirements all in one year)

So this would mean in 9 years ( 1999-2007 ) we would have made the 8 only 4 times and the top four only once. Pretty ordinary IMO. A record like that would also probably see the sacking of Craig, Trigg, Reid etc etc. The media and certain sections of the members would be baying for blood.

This means old Greorge W would be well into his 3rd term before we would be a premiership threat, how depressing.

[SpringChoke]

Marsh :p.

Not that I can think off. I know Doughty came off Rookie List, do did Mattner and Bock :eek:

Cheers.

[SpringChoke]

I think his development will be slowed down somewhat. He is going to have an interrupted pre-season due to his OP :(

I am hoping for Krueger to step up :)

What OP???

[maccas_no1]

It's worth remembering that our Premiership sides of 97/98 could only manage 13 minor round wins - and our all-time best finish achieved in 2002, is only 15 wins.

And with all due respect to our current crop, those squads had more talent in their left walnut.

Fair comment.

[SpringChoke]

[QUOTE=dyertribe]It's worth remembering that our Premiership sides of 97/98 could only manage 13 minor round wins - and our all-time best finish achieved in 2002, is only 15 wins.


QUOTE]

When you look at it that way, thank god we had a bit of Blight magic on our side.

[No 1 Draft Pick]

I think the 13 wins is slightly misleading in both 97/98. From memory both years we lost a number of very close games (under a goal). Also we finished both yrs with clearly the best % in the comp after the minor round - normally a good indicator of a quality/dominant side.

Re Bushs 3rd term - thankfully thats something we wont have to worry about - the US Constitution doesnt allow for more than 2 terms these days

[SpringChoke]

Re Bushs 3rd term - thankfully thats something we wont have to worry about - the US Constitution doesnt allow for more than 2 terms these days

A little thing like the "US costitution" want stop Georgey and the boys. They will find away to get around it. They won the 2000 with less votes then the Demos, anythings possible in US politics.

[Mad Dog]

They won the 2000 with less votes then the Demos, anythings possible in US politics.
In fact this is the first election in 16 years where the "winner" has also won the popular vote !

[Stiffy_18]

What OP???
Osteitis pubis (sp???)

He hasn't done any running or anything so far because he needs to rest. I don't think we can expect anything from himthis year considering he isn't going to have much of a pre-season :(