How your clubs young guns are training!

[richcogs]

This post is for people of all clubs to report on how your young guns are training.
When you give a reply on this thread just write in bold, at the top of your reply the Club your reporting on. So it makes it easy to see the clubs each person wants to view.

[vinnie_vegas69]

-Julian Rowe, Leon Davis and Brayden Shaw all seem to have improved their kicking skills greatly. Rowe and Davis have bulked up significantly too.

-Nick Maxwell's put on a bit of weight and sounds to have improved his fitness.

-Rhyce Shaw has been killing himself at training, just working his arse off to improve. On a couple of occasions he's worked to exhaustion, so much so that the trainers have had to help carry him off the track.

-Josh Fraser has been training with the rest of the tall forwards, pointing to what we all assumed, a forward role for Josh this year. Also has refined his physique, is cut, but still skinny-ish.

-Alan Didak and Richard Cole have worked on their fitness and body weight, preparing to spend a lot more time in the midfield this year.

-Chris Tarrant has gotten bigger... Again... May have on of the biggest upper bodies in the league by now.

-Tex Walker seems to just keep getting stronger all the time, a big, big guy.

-Billy Morrison looks in shape, and is leading, marking and kicking well.





Oh, and I heard from Yze_Magic that Colin Sylvia is looking "sexy enough to hump"...

His words, not mine.

[Bentleigh]

Collingwood will take the league by storm then eh?

[vinnie_vegas69]

Oh hell no, if you believe what you read here, all of our young players suck, and our older players don't play any more.

Because we don't have 25 superstars below the age of 21, we can't win anything :rolleyes:

[pazza]

Essendon

James Hird introduced the new kids to the throng at the Essendon AGM last night and according to reports I have read, those in attendance were impressed with what they saw and heard.

[theorangeapple]

For the eagles, Sam Butler was named the standout player of the preseason by john worsfold, adding 7kgs.

Daniel McConnell is also looking very sharp. going to be a very nice build for AFL midfield. 190cm and close to 90kgs next year.

[Sezzac1]

Down at CFC Walker is positively flying. He's put on 6 or 7 kg since starting last year and his track work has been nothing short of blitzing.

Waite and Norman are both been in the gym since seasons end and are also looking great.

Young Blackers looks right at home. Rarely misses a target by hand or either foot. Expect him to get a run in the Wizard Cup.

Eddie Betts has been impressing every one with his reading of the footy and his ability to hit the packs a full tilt, gather and scoot away. He's bloody hard to tackle and he will pick up a zillion frees for head high hits. I would like to see him play in a helmet because he's going to take a pounding above the shoulders at his height.

Bentick has not missed a session. He done very little wrong and should play in the WC.

[Benno_900]

Kangaroos

Blake Grima looks to be playing in the midfield next year.

[Johnson#26]

Here we go:

-Chris Egan: Only did a little bit of kicking and running, spent a bit of time in the dressing room. Very lightly built and has a bit of character about him. Will definitely become a crowd favourite.

-Sean Rusling: Looks a real talent. Good hands and a nice kick. Seemed to find the heat a little bit of a burden, and was restricted to running track with short sprints. Spent a lot of time running out of the goalsquare for leads, with Buckley giving him a helping hand.

-Adam Iaccobucci: This guys is a real, hard worker - and is perhaps a mini-Paul Licuria. Seems to have good pace - backed up by the fact that he spent most of his time running in the front group. A very good bloke, who seems very excited about playing AFL football, and definitely has the desire to win. We certainly have Licca's replacement.

-Heriter O'Brien: This guy could become a real wild card. Scortching pace, and is definitely the quickest listed. Some have commented on his average kicking skills, but he isn't all that bad to be honest from what I saw. Has definite raw ability to play. Very competitive.

From yesterdays training.

[Snickers]

anyone know about the saints young guns??

[Johnson#26]

The Saints. Not sure on them. You imagine that X.Clarke has balked up, Dal Santo is fitter and from what I've heard, Riewoldt is flying - fitter, faster and stronger then ever before.

[Bentleigh]

, Riewoldt is flying - fitter, faster and stronger then ever before.

Bit scary...

[nananana catman]

Geelong

Stephen Wells reckons Henry Plyafir is having a blinder.. look out AFL :p

Kane Tenace has really bulked up, I saw him the other day around town and hes big, hopefully kept his speed though.

[Snickers]

The Saints. Not sure on them. You imagine that X.Clarke has balked up, Dal Santo is fitter and from what I've heard, Riewoldt is flying - fitter, faster and stronger then ever before.
sounding good. and obviously everyone knows about goddard. sounds good!!

[theorangeapple]

sounding good. and obviously everyone knows about goddard. sounds good!!


will be interesting to see if goddard is actually listed at 98kgs. if he is then it wil be interesting too see how it affects his game. paul medhurst put on alot of muscle it got him no where. he went backwards if anything.

[soapy]

Melbourne -

Colin Sylvia - doing his first AFL preseason after missing with OP last year - is in terrific nick and getting the miles in his legs, which he lacked last year. Ready to have an impact.

Brock McLean - has added muscle and fined down and he is looking good to add to his impressive debut year.

Chris Johnson - skilful utility has added bulk. He moves and uses the ball well and will be a good player, but probably a year away.

Daniel Bell - Half back looks to have added an enormous amount of body strength. Big wraps on him at Melbourne and is doing everything right.

Nick Smith - Key forward continues to be struck down by injury - this time wrist surgery. Has size and talent, though.

Cameron Hunter - Still light but slowly building a stronger frame. Plenty of pace, courage and smarts, but weight could be still be a problem.

Aaron Davey - Going well. Seems to have regained the pace of last year.

Mark Jamar - Looking like a Greek adonis, really fit and should be more mobile this year.

The three draft picks are going along fine but probably won't play seniors this year.

[TheGeneral]

Melbourne -

Colin Sylvia - doing his first AFL preseason after missing with OP last year - is in terrific nick and getting the miles in his legs, which he lacked last year. Ready to have an impact.

Brock McLean - has added muscle and fined down and he is looking good to add to his impressive debut year.

Chris Johnson - skilful utility has added bulk. He moves and uses the ball well and will be a good player, but probably a year away.

Daniel Bell - Half back looks to have added an enormous amount of body strength. Big wraps on him at Melbourne and is doing everything right.

Nick Smith - Key forward continues to be struck down by injury - this time wrist surgery. Has size and talent, though.

Cameron Hunter - Still light but slowly building a stronger frame. Plenty of pace, courage and smarts, but weight could be still be a problem.

Aaron Davey - Going well. Seems to have regained the pace of last year.

Mark Jamar - Looking like a Greek adonis, really fit and should be more mobile this year.

The three draft picks are going along fine but probably won't play seniors this year.

I think the demons are a hugely underrated side and were unlucky to lose their final.With the influx of new talent I don't believe they will fall of the eight next year. Essendon will because their kids are further behind and are an ageing slow side.

[Snickers]

Look on the other threads.... Goddard= BEAST. LOL.

[Demonheart]

I think the demons are a hugely underrated side and were unlucky to lose their final.With the influx of new talent I don't believe they will fall of the eight next year.

*GASP* What about the odd year syndrome? ;)

[Demonheart]

To add to Melbourne's youngster's;

Brad Miller looks like his leadership qualities are really developing and he looks a bit stronger and is leading the way for the forwards.

Of all the young players I'd say that McLean, Moloney, Bell and Sylvia are looking the most impressive. Bell specifically has really improved and it's good to see Sylvia completing his first ever pre-season.
Ferguson appears to be ready to take up a kp spot in the backline and my favourite, Chris Johnson, is doing everything asked of him. He's developed a bit quicker than expected but there are a couple ahead of him atm so he'll have to wait his turn.

[HighRoller]

Look on the other threads.... Goddard= BEAST. LOL.

hmmm is he as big as sylvia though? ;)

[Johnson#26]

sounding good. and obviously everyone knows about goddard. sounds good!!

Forgot about Goddard. He will be huge by the the time the season comes around, although I'm not sold on him yet.

[davey_magik]

Originally posted by soapy
Melbourne -

Colin Sylvia - doing his first AFL preseason after missing with OP last year - is in terrific nick and getting the miles in his legs, which he lacked last year. Ready to have an impact.

Brock McLean - has added muscle and fined down and he is looking good to add to his impressive debut year.

Chris Johnson - skilful utility has added bulk. He moves and uses the ball well and will be a good player, but probably a year away.

Daniel Bell - Half back looks to have added an enormous amount of body strength. Big wraps on him at Melbourne and is doing everything right.

Nick Smith - Key forward continues to be struck down by injury - this time wrist surgery. Has size and talent, though.

Cameron Hunter - Still light but slowly building a stronger frame. Plenty of pace, courage and smarts, but weight could be still be a problem.

Aaron Davey - Going well. Seems to have regained the pace of last year.

Mark Jamar - Looking like a Greek adonis, really fit and should be more mobile this year.

The three draft picks are going along fine but probably won't play seniors this year.

If Smith doesn't play any seniors next year I would say he will be delisted. Really unlucky though with the surgery as he is a great mark. Davey is fully fit again and seems to have put on some more muscle. I'm really looking forward to Bell though. Looks fantastic and Sylvia goes without saying, he IS the player Melbourne supporters will be looking to play more games next year.
BTW any news on Rivers?

[Bentleigh]

Aaron Davey Is sposed to be much larger than previously.

[Snickers]

hmmm is he as big as sylvia though? ;)
what does sylivia weigh and his height?

[Stevens is Grouse]

Eddie Betts...

[EssendonPride]

Essendon will because their kids are further behind and are an ageing slow side.

Why does everyone think we're an old side...

Name all the "Old" Players.

Fletch + Hird (the 2 big ones)
Allan
Murphy.
Got a few players turning 27 next year but i wouldnt call that old.

Now if thats old well..

Also, our kids have been coming along quite nicely, 3 blokes drafted last year all got chances, Bullen is ready to stand up, Reynolds isnt sick, etc.

Take a look at our list and you'll see its actually quite young.

[Snickers]

Why does everyone think we're an old side...

Name all the "Old" Players.

Fletch + Hird (the 2 big ones)
Allan
Murphy.
Got a few players turning 27 next year but i wouldnt call that old.

Now if thats old well..

Also, our kids have been coming along quite nicely, 3 blokes drafted last year all got chances, Bullen is ready to stand up, Reynolds isnt sick, etc.

Take a look at our list and you'll see its actually quite young.
No Offence im not saying this to be a smartass but Essendon dont have any real stand out youngsters. I know thats off the topic but i just thought about it then.

[theorangeapple]

No Offence im not saying this to be a smartass but Essendon dont have any real stand out youngsters. I know thats off the topic but i just thought about it then.



mcphee is an out and out gun and only the same age or 1-2 or yrs older than most of the saints boys.

[OneEyedHawk]

Eddie Betts...
I was speaking to Eddie Betts last weekend and, to be honest, he looked like he'd been in a good paddock. Am a big rap for his ability though.

[waspy]

No Offence im not saying this to be a smartass but Essendon dont have any real stand out youngsters. I know thats off the topic but i just thought about it then.
Underestimate our youngsters at your own peril.

I bet a few teams wouldn't mind blokes like McPhee, Hille, Cupido and Welsh who are all 21-23, Rama and Solomon are still only 24-ish, and of course there's quite a few 17-20 year olds coming through that will continue to improve over the next few years. Essendon don't look like falling away to the bottom four like some teams do after winning a flag.

[EssendonPride]

No Offence im not saying this to be a smartass but Essendon dont have any real stand out youngsters. I know thats off the topic but i just thought about it then.

I do see what you mean (im guessing you mean <22, because as has been said Welsh/Cupido/McVeigh/McPhee/etc are going great.

I guess one of the reasons we dont have any real standout youngsters would be, we havnt missed the 8 in 7 years, meaning no early draft picks (accept the one/s we traded for)

Another reason is some of them havnt been given enough of a go, Bullen should stand up next year with more game time, Stants, Ricky D, and Kepler should all get more time.

Watson will hopefully be fitter, Reynolds wont be sick so he should be able to play. Laycock looks very promising given the fact hes barely played.

Not to mention our recruits this year, a couple of which are ready to play round 1.

It all leads back to the 1999/2000/2001 seasons i guess, where we had such a great group of players, theyve basically kept playing up until now, with not enough time to give the youngsters a go.

With Misiti, Wellman and Mercs retired, should see some of them get the chance to shine.

Ill admit we dont have the young guns of the Saints, but arent in as much trouble as we appear.

[sante]

Rodan is meant to be a tank!!!

[Snickers]

Rodan is meant to be a tank!!!
his legs were already tree trunks

[Bentleigh]

his legs were already tree trunks

The top half is similar now.

[jimmy35]

Eddie Betts...


Thats about it too.

[Eagles_Rock!!]

Back to topic,

All the young guys are going well and seem very confident over at the Eagles. I like Beau Wilkes' performnce and gamestyle and put him in high regard.

[LukeHodge15]

Jordan Lewis is flying at Glenferrie, averaged 30 odd touches in TAC and looking 2 be ready 4 round 1

[bettsie]

Jordan Lewis is flying at Glenferrie, averaged 30 odd touches in TAC and looking 2 be ready 4 round 1
thats got nothing to do with his preseason mate..

[nicho_magic]

thats got nothing to do with his preseason mate..
agreed betty

[LukeHodge15]

thats got nothing to do with his preseason mate..

just filling everyone who didn't know a bit of background on lewis, he has been wearing the poka dot jersey the last week 4 the best hill climber.
the talk is he will be playing ones next year 4 the hawks

[theorangeapple]

just filling everyone who didn't know a bit of background on lewis, he has been wearing the poka dot jersey the last week 4 the best hill climber.
the talk is he will be playing ones next year 4 the hawks


at pick 7, big bodied and top age you would hope so. if he hasnt played at least some quality footy within 3 yrs he wont make it.

[LukeHodge15]

do u rate him at all orange ?????

me rapt with him from the little i have seen

[stefoid]

Tom Williams is now able to recognize a footy from a watermelom 7 times out of 10.

Next week he works on 'forward passing'

[OldSchool]

Tom Williams is now able to recognize a footy from a watermelom 7 times out of 10.

Next week he works on 'forward passing'
Not a fan of the selection Stefoid ? :)

[Bentleigh]

Tom Williams is now able to recognize a footy from a watermelom 7 times out of 10.

Next week he works on 'forward passing'

Just think of Ryan Griffin :)

[TheGeneral]

From all reports Livingston will finally come of age this year as a footballer and play consistent football. The 3 part feature on Carltonfc.com.au is a real eye opener into what players go through to even debut in the game. Livo's had more bad luck with injury in 3 years than Bradley and Buckley have had in their whole career.

[stefoid]

Not a fan of the selection Stefoid ? :)

I wouldnt have picked him, would have went for one of the more 'proven' ruckman instead, like wood, since either player wont be ready for 2-3 years.

But I havent seen any footage of Williams either. Maybe he is a natural freak who will tkae to footy like a duck to water?

[Maazo]

I wouldnt have picked him, would have went for one of the more 'proven' ruckman instead, like wood, since either player wont be ready for 2-3 years.

But I havent seen any footage of Williams either. Maybe he is a natural freak who will tkae to footy like a duck to water?

There were quite a few clubs interested in him. Maybe that means there's something there or maybe it's just because there was such a buzz built up about him that clubs thought they'd better pick him early or risk having egg on their faces if he turns out to be okay. Possibly a little from column A + a little from column B....

I've never seen him play, but he was showing enough to be in the Morningside senior premiership-winning team in the AFLQ this season. Alright, the AFLQ is not the standard of the VFL, SANFL, etc., but the top few teams go OK. For him to be playing in the seniors in one of the top teams at his age and with his inexperience, there must be a bit there. I must admit though that when he was drafted at #6, my face went :eek:

[OldSchool]

I wouldnt have picked him, would have went for one of the more 'proven' ruckman instead, like wood, since either player wont be ready for 2-3 years.

But I havent seen any footage of Williams either. Maybe he is a natural freak who will tkae to footy like a duck to water?
I think we have to trust Clayton on this one. He was very keen on him at the draft camp so had scouted him well prior to it. Williams will need some additional coaching but he's 196cm, will fill out well, is quick, has excellent stamina so the club needs to work on his skills and his knowledge of football.
I'd say it was a very calculated risk.

Meesen would have been a better selection for us than Wood imo but I'm more than happy we selected Williams.
What's your take on the Griffen selection ? I know you were keen for us to go with KPP instead of the best available.

[theorangeapple]

From all reports Livingston will finally come of age this year as a footballer and play consistent football. The 3 part feature on Carltonfc.com.au is a real eye opener into what players go through to even debut in the game.


i think ive heard that the last 3yrs.

[stefoid]

I think we have to trust Clayton on this one. He was very keen on him at the draft camp so had scouted him well prior to it. Williams will need some additional coaching but he's 196cm, will fill out well, is quick, has excellent stamina so the club needs to work on his skills and his knowledge of football.
I'd say it was a very calculated risk.

Meesen would have been a better selection for us than Wood imo but I'm more than happy we selected Williams.
What's your take on the Griffen selection ? I know you were keen for us to go with KPP instead of the best available.

Might have taken roughead before griffen, but not franklyn. As it was, hawthorn took that descicion out of our hands, so griffen was the next logical choice.

as long as we didnt take tambling...

[Infamy]

as long as we didnt take tambling...

Ha ha, good one

[stefoid]

Ha ha, good one
richmond supporter huh? ill need to break it down for you then...

dogs allready have a zillion skillful lightweight players, so a tall or a big bodied midfielder was the priority. get it?

[OldSchool]

Might have taken roughead before griffen, but not franklyn. As it was, hawthorn took that descicion out of our hands, so griffen was the next logical choice.

as long as we didnt take tambling...
IMO, Roughead is nowhere near the footballer Griffen is and I'm sure we have made the best decision. Teams that draft talls for the sake of it generally lose out in a big way.

[CyberKev]

IMO, Roughead is nowhere near the footballer Griffen is and I'm sure we have made the best decision. Teams that draft talls for the sake of it generally lose out in a big way.

At this point I'd probably concur with your first point, but the second doesn't stand-up.

There is no such thing as drafting talls "for the sake of it".

If you don't have a solid compliment of tall kpp types you're condemned to the lower rungs of the ladder regardless of how good your smaller players may be. Your side evidences this point beautifully.

Its also not drafting talls on a whim if those talls are among the recognised elite handfull of players on offer in a draft.

In Hawthorn's case, they have lost Rawlings & Thompson in successive years, and will lose Barker & Holland at the end of this season. The latter two are already past it crocs, and Hay is a constant concern, not for his onfield form, but for his ongoing difficulty in getting on the paddock.

So consider the following scenario...

Holland & Barker gone at the end of 2005; Hay reinjured and facing much of 2006 on the sidelines; Hawthorn left with Tim Boyle and (as of now, untried)Josh Thurgood as their only two genuine kpp types for 2006 (assuming neither of them gets injured also). Had Hawthorn snared Tambling, Griffen & Meesen with their top three picks, this would have been the likely scenario facing the club at the beginning of 2006.

Drafting talls for the sake of it? Hardly!!!

[OldSchool]

So consider the following scenario...

Holland & Barker gone at the end of 2005; Hay reinjured and facing much of 2006 on the sidelines; Hawthorn left with Tim Boyle and (as of now, untried)Josh Thurgood as their only two genuine kpp types for 2006 (assuming neither of them gets injured also). Had Hawthorn snared Tambling, Griffen & Meesen with their top three picks, this would have been the likely scenario facing the club at the beginning of 2006.

Drafting talls for the sake of it? Hardly!!!
I'd say drafting talls for the sake of it is Hardly a recipe for success.

Regardless of your current position for KPP you should never pass over a clearly more talented player with early selections just because they are not tall. The Hawks could very well have snared Griffen, Franklin and Meesen which would have been a far superior outcome for them.
Also the club could have culled their list further and drafted some more ready-made KPP options albeit shorter term prospects with some later selections.
The fact is that the Hawks have a long history of drafting and trading for KPP with early selections and most of them have not come through like they would have hoped.
1998 Traded the 4th pick for Brett O'Farrell.
1999 Luke McPharlin which was a great selection. Shame he didn't stay.
2000 Traded pick 12 for Rehn.
2001 Hodge which was a very good selection but not the best.
2002 Brennan who they thought would be a KPP type. Also traded pick 6 and 22 for Everitt
2003 Traded pick 10 for Croad. Traded for Danny Jacobs.

While a number of clubs make the same sort of errors, my team uncluded, I
would have thought that looking at that list the Hawks would have placed a higher value on it's early selections than just going tall.

Time will tell if they have got their approach right this time.

[CyberKev]

I'd say drafting talls for the sake of it is Hardly a recipe for success.

If they come on its almost a guarantee of success, but this isn't the real point anyway, as the reality every club must face with drafting is the overriding need for developing strong team structure and balance.

Regardless of your current position for KPP you should never pass over a clearly more talented player with early selections just because they are not tall. The Hawks could very well have snared Griffen, Franklin and Meesen which would have been a far superior outcome for them.

Except that Hawthorn did not pass over "clearly more talented" players, given that Franklin was rated as top choice for a good portion of 2004 and the top five players taken were all seen as the elite players available. Actual positions are largely arbitrary anyway (as shown by the number of 2 & 3 picks who have outshone pick 1 over the years) and in real terms choosing one elite youngster over another is more akin to choosing Hird instead of Buckley than choosing Hird instead of Woewodin.

Its also worth remembering that tall players rarely rate ahead of midfielders as teenagers, mostly because they develop more slowly. To this end you have to punt a bit more on talls and need to be prepared to put more time and effort into them.

Also the club could have culled their list further and drafted some more ready-made KPP options albeit shorter term prospects with some later selections.

You have to go with quality when it comes to talls. Painfully few (if any) gun talls in today's game weren't considered cream of the crop types as youngsters and painfully few tall talented types taken among the top 5 or 6 in the draft haven't gone on with it at the top level.

The fact is that the Hawks have a long history of drafting and trading for KPP with early selections and most of them have not come through like they would have hoped.
1998 Traded the 4th pick for Brett O'Farrell.
1999 Luke McPharlin which was a great selection. Shame he didn't stay.
2000 Traded pick 12 for Rehn.
2001 Hodge which was a very good selection but not the best.
2002 Brennan who they thought would be a KPP type. Also traded pick 6 and 22 for Everitt
2003 Traded pick 10 for Croad. Traded for Danny Jacobs.

Most of these players are ruck players, which I consider removed from key position play.

O'Farrell was a dumb move, but not many people were saying so at the time.

On the other side of the coin, the club was derided by many for taking McPharlin so high (who wasn't rated at the time), but history has since vindicated the decision. Pity we can't get any joy out of it.

Rehn was always dubious, although he did play a key role in a side that made the finals across 2000/01. Again, a ruckman moreso than a CHF or CHB type.

Despite subsequent attempts at historical revisionism, Hodge was considered an inspired choice at the time, with 10 other clubs stating that they would have taken him at 1 had they had the pick. Schwab & Co have done all they can to destroy the lad by constantly playing him injured, unfit and out of position, but there's still plenty of time for this choice to be vidicated also.

Brennan? Was always too short to be a kpp and I don't know what the club was thinking by taking him at 8. At any rate, he was never considered an elite kpp tall by anybody and as such this pick hardly compares to Roughead and Franklin. Brennan may yet prove useful off a flank, but he certainly wouldn't have been my first choice that year.

Everitt is sensational, although again he is a ruck player moreso than a pure kpp, so the real query over Hawthorn's recent recruiting has to centre around an overt obsession with punting on ruckmen.

Jacobs? Hmmm... The less said the better, although he may still prove a useful back-up defender.

Croad... Hawthorn should consider themselves ahead with Trent. He was back in strong form at CHB this year (which was always his best position). With the benefit of hindsight he went too high that first time around, but given that many mocked Hawthorn for choosing him ahead of Massie it could have turned out worse. Especially taking into consideration getting him back from Freo for less money and a lower pick than we originally traded him away for.

While a number of clubs make the same sort of errors, my team uncluded, I would have thought that looking at that list the Hawks would have placed a higher value on it's early selections than just going tall.

Again, the club would have reached a crisis in 2006 had it ignored kpp types this time around. Besides, whilst I expect Griffen to be frontrunner for the Rising Star, it wouldn't surprise me to see Jordan Lewis pushing him all the way. At any rate, I would caution against getting overly focused on individual players, as its strong teams that win premierships not outstanding individuals. I well remember the constant bagging Hawthorn copped for letting Ablett go, but it didn't matter in the long run because they were able to plan and construct a sound and balanced side. This takes some foresight, some luck and a lot of hard work to get right.

An unerring devotion to taking players because of arbitrary rankings rather than for what they will bring to your side will almost certainly guarantee that you won't get it right in the long run.

Consider this... Its November 2005. Williams is struggling, Walsh hasn't come on, Grant decides to call it a day and the Bulldogs, coming off a poor year have picks 1 & 2 in the draft. There are 4 players considered to be the elite for this draft, with players 1 & 2 midfielders and players 3 & 4 promising key position talls. Given the welter of young midfielders on the books at Western, would you be happy to see the coaching panel opt for the midfielders purely because they are arbitrarily ranked 1 and 2?

I can't see many fans being happy years down the track with the side suffering for a dearth of kpp talent, while several talented midfielder types are leaving the club for more opportunity elsewhere. The coaching panel would say - "but we chose the best players available"... The only retort to this statement would be - "no, you may think you did, but clearly you did not."


Time will tell if they have got their approach right this time.

Indeed... This is true for every new player drafted at every club.

[ThatThis]

CyberKev there is absolutely no room for intellectual arguments on these boards. Take ur well-thought, constructive and sensible arguments elsewhere.

These boards are purely for bull******** driven back stabbing, and i wont have you stuffing it up. :rolleyes:

[blue boy]

brett thornton is having a great pre-seaosn and if he gets moved up to CHB thne we have ourselfs a All Australian CHB

[OldSchool]

Except that Hawthorn did not pass over "clearly more talented" players, given that Franklin was rated as top choice for a good portion of 2004 and the top five players taken were all seen as the elite players available. Actual positions are largely arbitrary anyway (as shown by the number of 2 & 3 picks who have outshone pick 1 over the years) and in real terms choosing one elite youngster over another is more akin to choosing Hird instead of Buckley than choosing Hird instead of Woewodin.

Its also worth remembering that tall players rarely rate ahead of midfielders as teenagers, mostly because they develop more slowly. To this end you have to punt a bit more on talls and need to be prepared to put more time and effort into them.

Thanks for the detailed response.
Ist up I'd ask if you saw both Griffen and Roughead play ? In my opinion Griffen is clearly a better player now with significantly more scope than Roughead in the future. Interested to hear why you think Roughead is better ? His kicking and decision making is my main concern with him.
If he ends up being similar to Croad would it warrant using the overall 2nd selection for him ?
The Hawks went in with a 'take the tall' approach regardless of who was there and I think it's a very flawed logic. The Hawks have done this consistently for the last 7 years and yet you are lamenting about your lack of depth in KPP. For mine rucks are KPP albeit a more specialised position.


You have to go with quality when it comes to talls. Painfully few (if any) gun talls in today's game weren't considered cream of the crop types as youngsters and painfully few tall talented types taken among the top 5 or 6 in the draft haven't gone on with it at the top level

But I don't think you have gone with quality, you might have gone with a couple of the better talls available but you haven't taken the best.
Unless you can grab a Riewoldt or Koschitzke with early selections like the Saints did then you should go with the best available. Anything less is a real bandaid approach.


O'Farrell was a dumb move, but not many people were saying so at the time.

On the other side of the coin, the club was derided by many for taking McPharlin so high (who wasn't rated at the time), but history has since vindicated the decision. Pity we can't get any joy out of it.

Rehn was always dubious, although he did play a key role in a side that made the finals across 2000/01. Again, a ruckman moreso than a CHF or CHB type.

Despite subsequent attempts at historical revisionism, Hodge was considered an inspired choice at the time, with 10 other clubs stating that they would have taken him at 1 had they had the pick. Schwab & Co have done all they can to destroy the lad by constantly playing him injured, unfit and out of position, but there's still plenty of time for this choice to be vidicated also.

Brennan? Was always too short to be a kpp and I don't know what the club was thinking by taking him at 8. At any rate, he was never considered an elite kpp tall by anybody and as such this pick hardly compares to Roughead and Franklin. Brennan may yet prove useful off a flank, but he certainly wouldn't have been my first choice that year.

Everitt is sensational, although again he is a ruck player moreso than a pure kpp, so the real query over Hawthorn's recent recruiting has to centre around an overt obsession with punting on ruckmen.

Jacobs? Hmmm... The less said the better, although he may still prove a useful back-up defender.

Croad... Hawthorn should consider themselves ahead with Trent. He was back in strong form at CHB this year (which was always his best position). With the benefit of hindsight he went too high that first time around, but given that many mocked Hawthorn for choosing him ahead of Massie it could have turned out worse. Especially taking into consideration getting him back from Freo for less money and a lower pick than we originally traded him away for.

Even after all the early selections and trades for talls you are still claiming that by 2006 you will be underdone. Is it because of the lack of quality or some of the short term fixes ?
I suppose trading Rawlings and Thompson in consecutive years has quickly depleted the list but funnily enough they were late selections that were given time to develop.
BTW, I agree that Hodge was a good selection given that some teams were concerned about Judd's shoulders. West Coast got a steal.



Again, the club would have reached a crisis in 2006 had it ignored kpp types this time around. Besides, whilst I expect Griffen to be frontrunner for the Rising Star, it wouldn't surprise me to see Jordan Lewis pushing him all the way. At any rate, I would caution against getting overly focused on individual players, as its strong teams that win premierships not outstanding individuals.
Are Roughead and Franklin really likely to be ready to make a contribution as KPP by then after just one season on the list ?
I'd say it's very doubtful. I didn't mind the selection of Lewis but he won't be the player that Griffen will be. I'm also more than a little surprised that the Hawks moved up the draft to grab him.


An unerring devotion to taking players because of arbitrary rankings rather than for what they will bring to your side will almost certainly guarantee that you won't get it right in the long run.

Consider this... Its November 2005. Williams is struggling, Walsh hasn't come on, Grant decides to call it a day and the Bulldogs, coming off a poor year have picks 1 & 2 in the draft. There are 4 players considered to be the elite for this draft, with players 1 & 2 midfielders and players 3 & 4 promising key position talls. Given the welter of young midfielders on the books at Western, would you be happy to see the coaching panel opt for the midfielders purely because they are arbitrarily ranked 1 and 2?

I can't see many fans being happy years down the track with the side suffering for a dearth of kpp talent, while several talented midfielder types are leaving the club for more opportunity elsewhere. The coaching panel would say - "but we chose the best players available"... The only retort to this statement would be - "no, you may think you did, but clearly you did not."
The Dogs have made similar error's but even if the likes of Walsh and Williams don't come along like they hope they do have a taller list than most give them credit for.
Brian Harris, 194cm, was an excellent late selection and is a good FB prospect for us.
Cameron Wight, 200cm, needs another season with the Bee's but looks likely to be able to hold down CHB.
Will Minson, 199cm, looks like a good CHF/Ruck combo for us in the next season or so and Jesse Wells, 195cm, will be groomed as a FF.
Players like Morgan and Skipper also add a bit of KPP depth having said that, it's something we need to be mindful of.

I agree that the 'rankings' are not always the way to go when drafting players but you are more likely to select a champ of the future with an early selection if you go for the best. The 2nd and 3rd rounds etc are the time to balance your playing list needs.

Thanks for your excellent response, really enjoyed the reading of and responding to a well considered contribution.

[OneEyedHawk]

But I don't think you have gone with quality, you might have gone with a couple of the better talls available but you haven't taken the best.


How have we not gone with the best? As was mentioned earlier, Franklin was touted as a potential #1 pick for a good percentage of the year and Garry Lyon said on SEN that it is Kevin Sheahan's belief that Franklin may turn out to be the best player in the draft.
Roughead is the strong marking KPP Hawthorn have crying out for, widely regarded as the best KPP in the draft.
As much as I would have loved to get my hands on Griffen, I think we did the only thing we could do given our position.

[OldSchool]

How have we not gone with the best? As was mentioned earlier, Franklin was touted as a potential #1 pick for a good percentage of the year and Garry Lyon said on SEN that it is Kevin Sheahan's belief that Franklin may turn out to be the best player in the draft.
Roughead is the strong marking KPP Hawthorn have crying out for, widely regarded as the best KPP in the draft.
As much as I would have loved to get my hands on Griffen, I think we did the only thing we could do given our position.
Franklin is a very talented and athletic player but ask yourself why wasn't he taken by any of the 3 teams with their 1st selection ?
The simple answer is that all teams regarded other players ahead of him and that's because there was a question mark about his work ethic and attitude. Having said that, I think he was a good selection for the Hawks and he should become a good player for you. Pick 5 was about right for him.

The logic of selecting Roughead over Griffen is what I'm questioning regardless of the clubs need for KPP. I also question why the Hawks would move up the draft picks 10 and 7 to draft Lewis ? He would have still been there at number 10.
I think they could have still netted 2 KPP after selecting either Griffen or Tambling. I think the Tigers did very well with their selections and yet they had a similar need to the Hawks regarding KPP particularly after losing Ottens but stuck to the best available selections.

[CyberKev]

Thanks for the detailed response.

You're Welcome... I thank you for the same :)

Ist up I'd ask if you saw both Griffen and Roughead play ? In my opinion Griffen is clearly a better player now with significantly more scope than Roughead in the future. Interested to hear why you think Roughead is better ? His kicking and decision making is my main concern with him.

I don't believe Roughead is better than Griffen, although its difficult to compare given that they're entirely different footballers. I'm not convinced that Griffen has significantly more scope for improvement over the long term, although - having seen many rough but talented young talls starting out - I have little doubt that Roughhead will look a far different proposition after having a couple of years at the top level under his belt. In recent times, Nick Reiwoldt (easily the best footballer in the comp) is the only young tall that has struck me as being openly special at age 17/18. Numerous midfield types have more easily caught my eye during this time, but other talls who looked good (but rough and raw) have impressed me more upon maturing. Goodes has been rightly raved up in recent times, but for mine, there were players that looked better than him at the North Ballarat Rebels. You ask why clubs would ignore Franklin with the top four picks, but a lot more clubs than that ignored Goodes. I remember that I wasn't convinced Goodes would make it, but he fairly rocketed when put in the top company. This just reinforces my point that talls are almost never at the same level as the top young midfielders at age 17/18.

If he ends up being similar to Croad would it warrant using the overall 2nd selection for him ?

No, given that I'm wanting a player who can hold down CHF and while Croad is more than useful at CHB, he can't cut it up forward. Nonetheless, if he is similar to Croad and can hold down CHB I wouldn't be devastated, as I would like to be able to release Croad to a wing where his speed and long kicking could see him do very well in the position. I'll be happier if he turns out more like Grant, who was also raw as a youngster and not everyone saw him as a future star.

The Hawks went in with a 'take the tall' approach regardless of who was there and I think it's a very flawed logic. The Hawks have done this consistently for the last 7 years and yet you are lamenting about your lack of depth in KPP. For mine rucks are KPP albeit a more specialised position.

I still argue that intermittently pursuing specialist ruckmen should be differentiated from recruiting players for CHF & CHB. At any rate, the impending kpp crisis has had less to do with recruiting the wrong players as it has to do with sheer rough luck. Consider:

- Hay, fab footballer when fit (provided he doesn't overdo the ball running), but after being practically injury free for his first four years, he has been off the paddock more often than on it over the past three. Sadly, I expect this trend to continue and can but hope that Thurgood can step up a notch or two to compensate.

- McPharlin, was being brought on well by the coaching staff, but you can't predict a brutal case of OP striking three years down the track. I still contend that he'd be with us today but for this.

- Barker, was a fine footballer in his prime across 2000/01, but is now a hack courtesy of possibly the worst OP affliction to have stricken an AFL player. May have had another 3 years in him otherwise, but is merely playing out time on his contract now.

- Holland, as per Barker except for different issues. Two of the most innocuous incidents I've ever seen wrought freakish havoc on his shoulders and all but ended his career.

- Rawlings, a fine footballer when fit AND playing at CHB (shocking at FF, alas for the Bulldogs), and still had a future at Hawthorn, but I can't blame him for leaving for more money and a longer contract.

- Thompson, not nearly the hotshot footballer he was expected to be. The main reason for this is that he is not a good FF. He gets hemmed in at FF, and prefers to play a mobile game, hence his best games for us were as a relieving ruckman. Should have been tried more as a CHF, IMO. Still had a future at Hawthorn, but again I think it was best for both player and club that he left.

This indicates that the rather rapid demise in Hawthorn's tall stocks have been for reasons primary other than ability, so its a bit harsh to condemn the club's longterm recruitment of talls on account of the current malaise. It only seems like yesterday (late 2001) that Hawthorn's tall contingent was being spoken about in hushed tones. Seems a bit daft in hindsight, but had this contingent endured a better injury run, the hype may have been vindicated. I would criticise the club for over-emphasising athleticism over skills and smarts, but this draft has shown a clear move away from that approach.

But I don't think you have gone with quality, you might have gone with a couple of the better talls available but you haven't taken the best.
Unless you can grab a Riewoldt or Koschitzke with early selections like the Saints did then you should go with the best available. Anything less is a real bandaid approach.

A genuine assessment of the true quality of all youngsters drafted is still several years away. I well remember the post draft raves about Johnstone, Fraser and Hodge; all of whom have been surpassed (to this point) by players picked below them. Its also true that many judges rated Didak ahead of Kozitschke in the 2000 draft, but I dare say the Saints are mighty pleased to have taken the big fellow ahead of him. Clearly you don't rate Roughhead, but all clubs would have liked to have got him on deck and many judges rate him highly. Most likely he won't have the flair of Tambling or Griffen, but Tredrea doesn't have the flair of Judd, but nonetheless brings more to a football side (I'd take Tredrea before Judd any day of the week).

Even after all the early selections and trades for talls you are still claiming that by 2006 you will be underdone. Is it because of the lack of quality or some of the short term fixes?

I covered this above. You may have misinterpreted my comments as indicating that we will still have a kpp crisis after the draft, but I meant that without going tall in this draft the club would have had a certain crisis in this regard come 2006. Roughead, Franklin, Murphy, Thurgood & Kirkby provide a solid base to work with before then. Realistically, if two of these five come on it will be a good result, with anything more than this a bonus.

I suppose trading Rawlings and Thompson in consecutive years has quickly depleted the list but funnily enough they were late selections that were given time to develop.

This is true, but drafting processes have moved on significantly since these guys were picked up. With the intensified use of physical and psychological testing (for mine the latter is more important), there has been a corresponding decrease in the number of players taken high and flopping. Similarly, we are getting less and less players taken low and making it (ala Thompson & Rawlings).

BTW, I agree that Hodge was a good selection given that some teams were concerned about Judd's shoulders. West Coast got a steal.

Holland was crippled by his shoulder reconstructions, but perhaps its a different thing when you're younger. Maybe Judd will innocuously reach for a player's jumper in a few years time and that will be all she wrote; maybe Hodge will do his knee and say enough is enough... At any rate, its also worth noting that Hawthorn chose Hodge that year to specifically fill a need. Personally, I wanted the club to run with Ball (who I still think will be the best of the three), but there you go.

Are Roughead and Franklin really likely to be ready to make a contribution as KPP by then after just one season on the list?

I think they'll be ready to play there, but may not necessarily make a massive immediate impact. Young talls need a year to put on extra weight and settle into the club and then need another year (or two) to get used to the demands of kp play at the top level. If Boyle can show something at CHF this year, then Roughead and/or Franklin may be eased in via a flank (which would be my preferred approach).

I'd say it's very doubtful. I didn't mind the selection of Lewis but he won't be the player that Griffen will be. I'm also more than a little surprised that the Hawks moved up the draft to grab him.

Most likely, but most would say that Griffen won't be half the player Greg Williams was, which would be eliding the reality that nobody rated Williams at all when he was a youngster.

The Dogs have made similar error's but even if the likes of Walsh and Williams don't come along like they hope they do have a taller list than most give them credit for.
Brian Harris, 194cm, was an excellent late selection and is a good FB prospect for us.
Cameron Wight, 200cm, needs another season with the Bee's but looks likely to be able to hold down CHB.
Will Minson, 199cm, looks like a good CHF/Ruck combo for us in the next season or so and Jesse Wells, 195cm, will be groomed as a FF.
Players like Morgan and Skipper also add a bit of KPP depth having said that, it's something we need to be mindful of.

Who knows. Its fair to say, however, that none of these players are seen as quality options, and it will be a bonus for the club if they do come on. To this end, the Bulldogs are similarly placed to every other club in the comp. Walsh may yet come good, but if he doesn't, he will be the exception to the recent rule re: drafting gun talls with high picks. Quality tall types taken top five have, practically without exception, performed well over the past 6 years. You can get away with taking midfielders lower more readily, simply because capable midfield types are thicker on the ground. With talls, the chances of getting players picked outside the first round to come on strong diminish significantly, but time will tell.

I agree that the 'rankings' are not always the way to go when drafting players but you are more likely to select a champ of the future with an early selection if you go for the best. The 2nd and 3rd rounds etc are the time to balance your playing list needs.

Except that, again, the tall options on offer in rounds two and three of the draft were pretty rugged and well below the class of Roughead and Franklin. In reality, while almost all elite kpp types picked early will come on, no more than 2 or 3 taken outside the first round will. This is why Hawthorn rightly took the punt with the 'Twin Towers' here, and why other clubs will do likewise in future years.

Still, that's just my view, and I wish I could say that I've never been hopelessly wide of the mark in the past. The only thing that is certain, however, is that Clarkson (given that Buckenara wanted Tambling) will either be hailed a genius or derided as an idiot in a couple of years time.

Kind Regards,
Kevin

[CyberKev]

The notion of "recruiting to fill a need" is also interesting when viewed from a pre-draft era standpoint.

I'd argue that its always been in vogue.

For example, in the late 60s, Carlton would surely have thrown the big bucks at the likes of Stewart, Skilton, Whitten or Hudson had they followed a "get the best player available" principle, but they went hard at Barassi from the get go. Barassi wasn't too shabby mind you, but I would have rated him below the above four on overall ability. What he did bring to the club was leadership, winning culture, and the realised potential to take things to the next level through coaching.

Similarly, in the late 1970s, the Kangaroos ignored the likes of Matthews, Hart and Knights so that they could throw a truckload of cash at Gary Dempsey in order to fill a hole they had in their ruck. Again, Dempsey was no slouch, but on pure ability you would have rated the other three above him.

Likewise, Hawthorn moved heaven and earth to get Platten (and only Platten, from the get go) for the 1986 season when Kernahan, Bradley (SA) and Watson, Madden, Flower, Barker and Gerard Healy would all have had bigger wraps as players at the time. Given the club lacked a bit of midfield zip at the time, it was an inspired choice.

[ablett factor]

You're Welcome... I thank you for the same :)



I don't believe Roughead is better than Griffen, although its difficult to compare given that they're entirely different footballers. I'm not convinced that Griffen has significantly more scope for improvement over the long term, although - having seen many rough but talented young talls starting out - I have little doubt that Roughhead will look a far different proposition after having a couple of years at the top level under his belt. In recent times, Nick Reiwoldt (easily the best footballer in the comp) is the only young tall that has struck me as being openly special at age 17/18. Numerous midfield types have more easily caught my eye during this time, but other talls who looked good (but rough and raw) have impressed me more upon maturing. Goodes has been rightly raved up in recent times, but for mine, there were players that looked better than him at the North Ballarat Rebels. You ask why clubs would ignore Franklin with the top four picks, but a lot more clubs than that ignored Goodes. I remember that I wasn't convinced Goodes would make it, but he fairly rocketed when put in the top company. This just reinforces my point that talls are almost never at the same level as the top young midfielders at age 17/18.



No, given that I'm wanting a player who can hold down CHF and while Croad is more than useful at CHB, he can't cut it up forward. Nonetheless, if he is similar to Croad and can hold down CHB I wouldn't be devastated, as I would like to be able to release Croad to a wing where his speed and long kicking could see him do very well in the position. I'll be happier if he turns out more like Grant, who was also raw as a youngster and not everyone saw him as a future star.



I still argue that intermittently pursuing specialist ruckmen should be differentiated from recruiting players for CHF & CHB. At any rate, the impending kpp crisis has had less to do with recruiting the wrong players as it has to do with sheer rough luck. Consider:

- Hay, fab footballer when fit (provided he doesn't overdo the ball running), but after being practically injury free for his first four years, he has been off the paddock more often than on it over the past three. Sadly, I expect this trend to continue and can but hope that Thurgood can step up a notch or two to compensate.

- McPharlin, was being brought on well by the coaching staff, but you can't predict a brutal case of OP striking three years down the track. I still contend that he'd be with us today but for this.

- Barker, was a fine footballer in his prime across 2000/01, but is now a hack courtesy of possibly the worst OP affliction to have stricken an AFL player. May have had another 3 years in him otherwise, but is merely playing out time on his contract now.

- Holland, as per Barker except for different issues. Two of the most innocuous incidents I've ever seen wrought freakish havoc on his shoulders and all but ended his career.

- Rawlings, a fine footballer when fit AND playing at CHB (shocking at FF, alas for the Bulldogs), and still had a future at Hawthorn, but I can't blame him for leaving for more money and a longer contract.

- Thompson, not nearly the hotshot footballer he was expected to be. The main reason for this is that he is not a good FF. He gets hemmed in at FF, and prefers to play a mobile game, hence his best games for us were as a relieving ruckman. Should have been tried more as a CHF, IMO. Still had a future at Hawthorn, but again I think it was best for both player and club that he left.

This indicates that the rather rapid demise in Hawthorn's tall stocks have been for reasons primary other than ability, so its a bit harsh to condemn the club's longterm recruitment of talls on account of the current malaise. It only seems like yesterday (late 2001) that Hawthorn's tall contingent was being spoken about in hushed tones. Seems a bit daft in hindsight, but had this contingent endured a better injury run, the hype may have been vindicated. I would criticise the club for over-emphasising athleticism over skills and smarts, but this draft has shown a clear move away from that approach.



A genuine assessment of the true quality of all youngsters drafted is still several years away. I well remember the post draft raves about Johnstone, Fraser and Hodge; all of whom have been surpassed (to this point) by players picked below them. Its also true that many judges rated Didak ahead of Kozitschke in the 2000 draft, but I dare say the Saints are mighty pleased to have taken the big fellow ahead of him. Clearly you don't rate Roughhead, but all clubs would have liked to have got him on deck and many judges rate him highly. Most likely he won't have the flair of Tambling or Griffen, but Tredrea doesn't have the flair of Judd, but nonetheless brings more to a football side (I'd take Tredrea before Judd any day of the week).



I covered this above. You may have misinterpreted my comments as indicating that we will still have a kpp crisis after the draft, but I meant that without going tall in this draft the club would have had a certain crisis in this regard come 2006. Roughead, Franklin, Murphy, Thurgood & Kirkby provide a solid base to work with before then. Realistically, if two of these five come on it will be a good result, with anything more than this a bonus.



This is true, but drafting processes have moved on significantly since these guys were picked up. With the intensified use of physical and psychological testing (for mine the latter is more important), there has been a corresponding decrease in the number of players taken high and flopping. Similarly, we are getting less and less players taken low and making it (ala Thompson & Rawlings).



Holland was crippled by his shoulder reconstructions, but perhaps its a different thing when you're younger. Maybe Judd will innocuously reach for a player's jumper in a few years time and that will be all she wrote; maybe Hodge will do his knee and say enough is enough... At any rate, its also worth noting that Hawthorn chose Hodge that year to specifically fill a need. Personally, I wanted the club to run with Ball (who I still think will be the best of the three), but there you go.



I think they'll be ready to play there, but may not necessarily make a massive immediate impact. Young talls need a year to put on extra weight and settle into the club and then need another year (or two) to get used to the demands of kp play at the top level. If Boyle can show something at CHF this year, then Roughead and/or Franklin may be eased in via a flank (which would be my preferred approach).



Most likely, but most would say that Griffen won't be half the player Greg Williams was, which would be eliding the reality that nobody rated Williams at all when he was a youngster.



Who knows. Its fair to say, however, that none of these players are seen as quality options, and it will be a bonus for the club if they do come on. To this end, the Bulldogs are similarly placed to every other club in the comp. Walsh may yet come good, but if he doesn't, he will be the exception to the recent rule re: drafting gun talls with high picks. Quality tall types taken top five have, practically without exception, performed well over the past 6 years. You can get away with taking midfielders lower more readily, simply because capable midfield types are thicker on the ground. With talls, the chances of getting players picked outside the first round to come on strong diminish significantly, but time will tell.



Except that, again, the tall options on offer in rounds two and three of the draft were pretty rugged and well below the class of Roughead and Franklin. In reality, while almost all elite kpp types picked early will come on, no more than 2 or 3 taken outside the first round will. This is why Hawthorn rightly took the punt with the 'Twin Towers' here, and why other clubs will do likewise in future years.

Still, that's just my view, and I wish I could say that I've never been hopelessly wide of the mark in the past. The only thing that is certain, however, is that Clarkson (given that Buckenara wanted Tambling) will either be hailed a genius or derided as an idiot in a couple of years time.

Kind Regards,
Kevin

that is by far the longest post i have ever seen, in any forum.

[CyberKev]

that is by far the longest post i have ever seen, in any forum.

Yeah, I did get a bit carried away... :o

Sorry, it was clearly a bit of a slow afternoon yesterday :D

[stefoid]

I reckon hawthorn took roughead (best tall) in the hopes that either Richmond or the dogs would take Franklyn (both need talls) in order that hawthorn could secure griffen or tambling with their 5th pick. I think they went for that gamble thinking the worst case scenario was they would end up with the two best talls, which doesnt actually blow, but not the best they were hoping for.

[OneEyedHawk]

Yeah, I did get a bit carried away... :o

Sorry, it was clearly a bit of a slow afternoon yesterday :D
Don't be sorry, was a great read. Agree with everything you said.

[CyberKev]

Don't be sorry, was a great read. Agree with everything you said.

Thanks for the kind words, OEH...

The direction of the new Hawk coaching panel was always going to divide opinion, so I can well appreciate where OldSchool is coming from. Drafting youngsters is ever a gamble, with the Roughead choice probably even a greater one than normal, but under the circumstances I feel its one that can be justified.

That being said, we can expect to get hammered by the critics in 2005, as I expect to see little if anything of the tall boys, while I also suspect that Griffen will show a bit almost from the get go (Tambling may also, particularly given the lean state of the Tiger list).

As such, Tim Boyle and Jordan Lewis will be key players for the club this season.

Boyle was drawing many admirers with his VFL development in 2003 and would certainly have played for Hawthorn last year, but for the injury. I'd like to see him filling a key forward role this season, although we don't know what sort of mental baggage he'll be carrying from the injury. I firmly believe that Ladson's nasty break badly set back his development, given how good he looked before the mishap.

Lewis is the other X-factor player. Injury dropped his stocks somewhat and he's never going to wow people in athletic tests, but a large core of people who have watched him regularly at close quarters suggest that he's a genuine footballer and a gun in the making. He'll almost certainly get early game time (possibly even from round 1) and if he can come on strongly, will buy the coaching staff extra breathing space in developing Roughhead.

Cheers,
Kevin

[tayls]

Thanks for the kind words, OEH...

The direction of the new Hawk coaching panel was always going to divide opinion, so I can well appreciate where OldSchool is coming from. Drafting youngsters is ever a gamble, with the Roughead choice probably even a greater one than normal, but under the circumstances I feel its one that can be justified.

That being said, we can expect to get hammered by the critics in 2005, as I expect to see little if anything of the tall boys, while I also suspect that Griffen will show a bit almost from the get go (Tambling may also, particularly given the lean state of the Tiger list).

As such, Tim Boyle and Jordan Lewis will be key players for the club this season.








Boyle was drawing many admirers with his VFL development in 2003 and would certainly have played for Hawthorn last year, but for the injury. I'd like to see him filling a key forward role this season, although we don't know what sort of mental baggage he'll be carrying from the injury. I firmly believe that Ladson's nasty break badly set back his development, given how good he looked before the mishap.

Lewis is the other X-factor player. Injury dropped his stocks somewhat and he's never going to wow people in athletic tests, but a large core of people who have watched him regularly at close quarters suggest that he's a genuine footballer and a gun in the making. He'll almost certainly get early game time (possibly even from round 1) and if he can come on strongly, will buy the coaching staff extra breathing space in developing Roughhead.

Cheers,
Kevin

Dont know a hell of a lot about Lewis but from what i can gather he is a footballer not an athlete. About time players like this were recognised. I like to compare him to Cameron Ling, by no means an athlete but boy can he get the footy. Apparently he is hard at it so i think the Hawks will have a fair midfield, Crawf, Mitchell, Vandenberg and Lewis. You have done well getting him i think.

[LukeHodge15]

watched timmy boyles play at morwell in 2004, he stunned me with the progression he had made over the pre-season break. think that is the reason why we didnt offer jade rawlings a 3 year contract. at morwell he played very well in the style of jade. leading out, presenting an option at chf and marking everything in sight. followed this game up with a 16 mark effort against west coast at subi (although weagles not known 4 there quality defenders or be it north 4 that matter) then the tragic situation of a spiral fracture in his leg happened at training , derailing his whole season. from reports i have heard, he still not training with the main bunch and just spending time on tread mill and stationary bike at the min.
fingers crossed he can hit back with avengence this year and show us the promise he did early on last year.

great great read cyberkev

[sante]

Deledio, Tambling and etc are kicking ass on the track :D

[Bentleigh]

Deledio, Tambling and etc are kicking ass on the track :D

Tambling looks pretty special. I wouldnt say Deledio is doing anything special. More solid more than anything else. :)

[TheGeneral]

Luke Blackwell is a chance of playing round one according to Denis the great.

[sante]

Tambling looks pretty special. I wouldnt say Deledio is doing anything special. More solid more than anything else. :)

ssssssssssh, we cant let opposition supporters know ;)

[Ghost of Punt Road]

Deledio, Tambling and etc are kicking ass on the track :D


They are kicking DONKEYS?

How cruel!

or are they kicking arse perhaps? ;)

[CyberKev]

.

great great read cyberkev

Thanks, LH15, much appreciated...

I haven't actually seen anything of Boyle personally, but what I have heard tends to support your view that he plays a strong marking game, not disimilar to the style played by Rawlings.

Please, please, please tell me though, that he's a better kick of a football than Jade is!!!

[Cool hand]

There's a new kid at Collingwood that will power his way forward and prove to be a true champion.

[Yze_Magic]

-Julian Rowe, Leon Davis and Brayden Shaw all seem to have improved their kicking skills greatly. Rowe and Davis have bulked up significantly too.

-Nick Maxwell's put on a bit of weight and sounds to have improved his fitness.

-Rhyce Shaw has been killing himself at training, just working his arse off to improve. On a couple of occasions he's worked to exhaustion, so much so that the trainers have had to help carry him off the track.

-Josh Fraser has been training with the rest of the tall forwards, pointing to what we all assumed, a forward role for Josh this year. Also has refined his physique, is cut, but still skinny-ish.

-Alan Didak and Richard Cole have worked on their fitness and body weight, preparing to spend a lot more time in the midfield this year.

-Chris Tarrant has gotten bigger... Again... May have on of the biggest upper bodies in the league by now.

-Tex Walker seems to just keep getting stronger all the time, a big, big guy.

-Billy Morrison looks in shape, and is leading, marking and kicking well.





Oh, and I heard from Yze_Magic that Colin Sylvia is looking "sexy enough to hump"...

His words, not mine.


Yup

And the thing about Sylvia is the only realisitc and believeble thing you said in your whole post

:D

[Stakerz]

There's a new kid at Collingwood that will power his way forward and prove to be a true champion.And who would that be ;)

[team_x]

And who would that be ;)

I assume from Cool Hand's only other post on Bigfooty, he would be referring to Adam Iacobucci, aka The Booch...

[Jabso]

The Booch!

[LukeHodge15]

Thanks, LH15, much appreciated...

I haven't actually seen anything of Boyle personally, but what I have heard tends to support your view that he plays a strong marking game, not disimilar to the style played by Rawlings.

Please, please, please tell me though, that he's a better kick of a football than Jade is!!!

yeah he is a good kick, not great but good. if he gets over his spiral fracture , which some poeple
the problem with jade lies between his ears, not a bad kick at all except when he sees white posts in front of him........... :D

[Choota]

For the Hawthorn fans, Lance Franklin has been training the house down.

An absolute standout in all athletic testing and has been regularly drilling goals from outside 50. His left foot is something else. He's a real cocky kid as well, always giving other players stick when they can't keep up during laps - making him a popular target of practical jokes. Needs a couple of years to fill out but when he does he'll be enormous. Looks a star in the making.

Jordan Lewis has impressed alot of people over the off-season also, and is considered ready made for round 1. Not really dissimilar to Luke Hodge, though his left foot is not as sharp. Big, strong kid and very aggressive.

Roughhead appears to be carrying some sort of injury as nearly every time i've seen the side train he's been on a restricted program. In the times he has trained he hasn't really stood out other than the fact that he's a big kid with clean hands.

Josh Thurgood is another tipped to debut in the early part of next season. Seems a real favourite of the coaching staff. He's pencil thin but courageous as hell. Will be interesting to see how he adapts.

[Nightwolf]

Lance Franklin has been nothing but good reports, his hands are great, athletic ability is amazing and is damn tall and growing. Im exited by Lance...

[Bentleigh]

My hawk mates go down to glenferrie often.

Franklin is sposed to be aroggant as hell but his training has been top class also.

On the other hand they tell me Roughead has been very poor.

[theorangeapple]

Lance Franklin has been nothing but good reports, his hands are great, athletic ability is amazing and is damn tall and growing. Im exited by Lance...

he has the talent just needs to get his head rights and do it consistantly. he does some very special things on a footy field, the problem is that in between those special acts u get some absolute shockers. producing at that high level consistantly will make him on of the best in game although not many players of his type ever end up consistant types.

[Choota]

My hawk mates go down to glenferrie often.

Franklin is sposed to be aroggant as hell but his training has been top class also.

On the other hand they tell me Roughead has been very poor.
Wouldn't say 'very poor', but he hasn't stood out.

Franklin stands out in every facet of training. He is arrogant, but it doesn't seem to be in a dislikeable way. His teammates seem to get on well with him anyway with plenty of light-hearted banter between senior players and Buddy.

[moistie]

Franklin was touted as a potential #1 pick for a good percentage of the year and Garry Lyon said on SEN that it is Kevin Sheahan's belief that Franklin may turn out to be the best player in the draft.

From all reports, Franklin looks the goods on the training track. He's as fit as a Mallee Bull, with it being said he leads all the jogging exercises by a good distance and looks as if he could keep going all day, even when he's finished. He's a booming and accurate kick as well, easily hitting targets up to 55m away.

Early days, but I'm glad he's at Hawthorn.

[Bentleigh]

Early days, but I'm glad he's at Hawthorn.

Over Tambling and Griffin?

[OneEyedHawk]

Over Tambling and Griffin?
Yes over Tambling and Griffen, 2 midfielders when we desperately need KPP's. especially one as immensely talented as Buddy.
Will you ever get over this issue??
By the way, as for your Roughead report, I have it on very good authority that Tambling has been very poor at training of late. First couple of sessions were good, but has gone rapidly downhill since ie.fumbling, spraying kicks etc.
Are you happy you took him over the Key Position Players you so desperately need also?

[Bentleigh]

Was the question directed at you Tw@t?

Yes over Tambling and Griffen, 2 midfielders when we desperately need KPP's.

You desperately need everything.

especially one as immensely talented as Buddy.

Talented yes, I have it on very good authority that he is also very incosistant.

By the way, as for your Roughead report, I have it on very good authority that Tambling has been very poor at training of late. First couple of sessions were good, but has gone rapidly downhill since ie.fumbling, spraying kicks etc.

How does 'my' Roughead report have to do with Tambling. You have a fault and you attack someone else... classic case of a tosser.

Tambling has been quite average of late, yes. Training of late has been very tough on the players. The likes of Kane Johnson are struggling. No wonder 18 years olds are not in there best form. But lets just remember how highly rated in the consistancy department.

Are you happy you took him over the Key Position Players you so desperately need also?

Can you explain how we desperately need KPP?

Of course I am happy. After Deledio I wanted Griffin at 4 but was happy with Tambling. A bloke touted as the best abo ever must have abit of potential. A Wells type I would prefer over a iffy KPP, project player. We have enough of them.

[Hodge_is_God]

Get over it Bentleigh, no one gives a steaming crap what you think you know. I think i speak on behalf of all Hawk supporters when i tell you to ********** off and stop trying to start a rivalry which doesn't exist.

Roughead (and Lewis, Murphy, Little, Kirkby, Young etc) has only looked pedestrian compared to the incredible talent Franklin has shown so far. That's not to say that they aren't training well, just that Franklin has been SUPERB.

Nonchalantly stabbing 55 metre passes after running a half dozen 200m sprints a great deal faster than senior team-mates is exceptional. It's extraordinary. Not even Tambling and Deledio can do that.

HAVING WRITTEN THAT, that's not to say it'll be translated into football. Neither does that mean that Roughead's indifferent training form will be translated into actual football does it? But that's not what this thread is about, is it?

[Bentleigh]

Get over it Bentleigh, no one gives a steaming crap what you think you know. I think i speak on behalf of all Hawk supporters when i tell you to ********** off and stop trying to start a rivalry which doesn't exist.

Its ok champ. I relise how much you value me and my opion.

Roughead (and Lewis, Murphy, Little, Kirkby, Young etc) has only looked pedestrian compared to the incredible talent Franklin has shown so far. That's not to say that they aren't training well, just that Franklin has been SUPERB.

My mate, big Hawk fan lives in Winsor. Very close to the Hawks training ground. Him and a few others go there regualr. From what they say (blokes which have seen 80% of trainings) said Roughead has been "poor".

Nonchalantly stabbing 55 metre passes after running a half dozen 200m sprints a great deal faster than senior team-mates is exceptional. It's extraordinary. Not even Tambling and Deledio can do that.

I tihnk you will find Deledio can kick 60 odd meters on both feat, and is equally accuate. Deledio and Tambling are amoung the fastest, and most explosive going around, if not faster to Franklin (which I doubt) equal.

[TheGeneral]

I tihnk you will find Deledio can kick 60 odd meters on both feat, and is equally accuate. Deledio and Tambling are amoung the fastest, and most explosive going around, if not faster to Franklin (which I doubt) equal.
Jordan Russell and Andrew Walker would be the equal of the above 2 for speed and explosive power. Just remember speed isn't all its cracked up to be given Livingston was the quickest over 5,10 and 20 metres at the draft camp. Another Shane O'Sullivan special.:rolleyes:

[Nightwolf]

I tihnk you will find Deledio can kick 60 odd meters on both feat, and is equally accuate. Deledio and Tambling are amoung the fastest, and most explosive going around, if not faster to Franklin (which I doubt) equal.

60 METRES!!!!! :eek: Thats rubbish, most AFL players struggle to kick 50+, as if a rookie is gunna kick 60 on both feet, turn it up...

[Choota]

Two clubs will regret passing up on Lance Franklin in years to come.

[Bentleigh]

Jordan Russell and Andrew Walker would be the equal of the above 2 for speed and explosive power. Just remember speed isn't all its cracked up to be given Livingston was the quickest over 5,10 and 20 metres at the draft camp. Another Shane O'Sullivan special.:rolleyes:

Speed is of the highest importance in todays game.

Two clubs will regret passing up on Lance Franklin in years to come.

Just like Saints and the Hawks regret that they got Ball and Judd over Hodge?

Find it funny to say other clubs are going to regret picks comming form a Hawk.

[Bentleigh]

60 METRES!!!!! :eek: Thats rubbish, most AFL players struggle to kick 50+, as if a rookie is gunna kick 60 on both feet, turn it up...


Deledio is a brilliant midfielder and forward who looks destined to be an AFL star. He is what I would call the complete package. He is an amazing mark for his size, creative at the stoppages, a booming kick on either side and has fantastic goal sense. He has the rare ability to turn a game with his sublime skills and inspirational marks.

Brett can play in the centre and will win a lot of clearances, but is also very capable of holding down a spot in the forward line. He has the ability to kick up to 60 metres on his right foot and is pretty capable on his left. His pace is extremely good, and he has good endurance as well. From all reports Deledio has a good head on his shoulders and is a natural leader, captaining Australia in th International Rules series this year. Brett is also pretty good defensively.

http://www.footydraft.com/players.php?player=brett_deledio