View Full Version : Now the Waugh is over.......
Jumpin' Jimmy
8 Jul 2005, 19:34
Seems to me Australia held the psychological advantage over other teams whilst ever Steve Waugh was captain. Basically he refused to lose and the other players followed his direction.
For a while after Waugh's retirement Australia appeared to get even better. Ponting's confidence was sky-high, Gilchrist kept blasting away like there was no tomorrow and the kid Clarke was doing everything with ease.
So what is going wrong lately? Ponting seems to have lost his confidence, Hayden is struggling, so is Clarke. Gillespie is struggling with the ball.
Nowhere was the confusion more evident than the tied one-day final the other night. Ponting was like a stunned mullet after the Poms had run 2 off the final ball. If nothing else the Poms gained a huge moral victory over us, based on body language alone. They have obviously taken that confidence into these special one-dayers as well.
Can Ponting, the coach and other senior players turn our performances around? For the first time in years are we looking seriously at copping a flogging?
eddiesmith
8 Jul 2005, 20:21
Its Ponting, ********test captain in world cricket. We have 2 very good leaders in the Test team yet one is banned from ever captaining, the other has captained 1 series and won it. But for some reason the NSW/TAS ******** gets the job
slushpup
8 Jul 2005, 20:37
Ponting isn't in form, the other batsmen are falling around him. Everyone is praising Gillespie and Lee for batting well at the end of innings' but we shouldn't need them to. The top order should be able to do that for us. Also i think Gillespie's bowling has gone downhill because he's been concentrating on his batting too much.
I don’t know if I would be reading too much into it too soon. Australia has been in amazingly destructive form with punter as captain up till now.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the team didn’t play well in these two games, they have a very distinctive dead rubber feel to them.
For all we know the first test might start the batsman will all click and Dizzy will be back to his brilliant best.
Damn, there is a bit of an over-reaction to losing a few one dayers!! But I agree, I don't like Ponting's indecisiveness as a captain, I feel Steve Waugh was fantastic for his aggressiveness and the way he took the opposition out of the game with his approach. Ponting seems to let the game meander along.
He is undoubtedly 100% behind his players, but he doesn't seem to instill discipline in the team. The bowling is lacking penetrating, but the batting is diabolical. If there is one thing you see with high scoring teams it is partnerships. We have a problem that when one batsmen falls, the batsmen at the other end invariably loses his wicket in the next few overs. They all want to be the batsmen that becomes the hero, which is invariably hit and miss cricket. The only person to play a sheet-anchor role at the moment bats far too low- that's Hussey.
I would like to see Hussey promoted up the order, maybe even to open with Gilchrist. I think the Gilchrist/ Hayden pairing is starting to stink and when one falls, the other is not far behind, so we are always 2 down within the 10-15 over mark. Just as cricket changed when Sri Lanka hit out, then changed again as Australia through Gilchrist & Hayden dominated, it has changed again and Australia is unwilling to make adjustment. This tour has shown that a constant, good run rate will get you further than an inspired Hayden/ Gilchrist hitting 50 off 8 overs.
The bowling is the worst it has ever been, showing how much we miss both the presence and skill of Shane Warne. The quality after Lee and McGrath is not there. We need Gillespie to stand up, that is obvious, but look at the quality of player we have to throw at the 4 and 5 bowling spots!! Tell me that they aren't going to go for less than 100 from their 20 overs on a good day. When we had Warne, 100 from those 20 overs would have been a bad day.
The bowling is the worst it has ever been, showing how much we miss both the presence and skill of Shane Warne. The quality after Lee and McGrath is not there. We need Gillespie to stand up, that is obvious, but look at the quality of player we have to throw at the 4 and 5 bowling spots!! Tell me that they aren't going to go for less than 100 from their 20 overs on a good day. When we had Warne, 100 from those 20 overs would have been a bad day.I seriously can not understand why people keep on insisting that our fourth and fifth bowlers are letting us down. Both of them have done a fantastic job.NatWest Series, 2005 Bowling Averages
Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 4w 5w SR Econ
GD McGrath 6 48 8 176 8 22.00 3-25 - - 36.0 3.66
B Lee 5 39 4 174 8 21.75 2-27 - - 29.2 4.46
JN Gillespie 7 50.2 2 251 5 50.20 2-41 - - 60.4 4.98
GB Hogg 6 40 2 167 10 16.70 3-29 - - 24.0 4.17
A Symonds 5 34.2 3 114 6 19.00 5-18 - 1 34.3 3.32
I seriously can not understand why people keep on insisting that our fourth and fifth bowlers are letting us down. Both of them have done a fantastic job.NatWest Series, 2005 Bowling Averages
Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 4w 5w SR Econ
GD McGrath 6 48 8 176 8 22.00 3-25 - - 36.0 3.66
B Lee 5 39 4 174 8 21.75 2-27 - - 29.2 4.46
JN Gillespie 7 50.2 2 251 5 50.20 2-41 - - 60.4 4.98
GB Hogg 6 40 2 167 10 16.70 3-29 - - 24.0 4.17
A Symonds 5 34.2 3 114 6 19.00 5-18 - 1 34.3 3.32
Yep, point taken. Maybe I was a bit off the mark. But note that it has largely been a low scoring summer, I just think the quality of the 4-5 bowlers is not the same without Warne. Maybe one series doesn't show that, but it is something I believe is a little shaky. Gillespie's figures are pitiful.
ViperV10
8 Jul 2005, 22:24
Ponting seems to let the game meander along.
Probably the most apt description of Ponting's captaincy that I have read. I honestly do not blame him in the tied final - there was too much to risk by continuing Lee and McGrath at 5/33 that they would run out of overs and we really wouldn't have any outright attack left - however in general in nearly every other match he has captained he has let the foot off the gas and the other team has capitalised (or at the very least attempted to).
Technically it seems he is not a very good captain, and as a Ponting fan I see my support for him slowly fading away.
Yep, point taken. Maybe I was a bit off the mark. But note that it has largely been a low scoring summer, I just think the quality of the 4-5 bowlers is not the same without Warne. Maybe one series doesn't show that, but it is something I believe is a little shaky. Gillespie's figures are pitiful.Yeah, I wasn’t even really having a go at you. Loads of people have been saying the same thing.
Can not fault them at all for this series. I’m sure they will get totally belted at some point but one is averaging 16.7 and the other 19. They are sensational figures for any bowler, let alone numbers 4 and 5.
I've really been impressed with Symonds' bowling. He's hitting marks with the same regularity that McGrath has. Probably our best bowler so far.
Lee's been impressive, but I can't help but feel that he's thriving on the back of McGrath's miserly work. I don't think he'd be able to lead an attack with Gillespie or Kaspa - we'd bleed runs badly. His economy rate is poor, and his best return is still only 2 wickets. I like his new attitude, though.
Let's face it - England talked big about their new attitude, and so far it seems they weren't bluffing. They probably are a side of some quality, and will put up a good fight this summer. Perhaps some of the difficulty we've been having has been imposed from without rather than within (barring Gillespie, who is obviously having some problems).
spookism
8 Jul 2005, 22:39
Why is it as soon as we lose a couple of one-dayers or someone has one or two bad inninings we are calling for there head.
I remember two years agos, the call was for Martyn to be sacked - six months ago he was runner-up in the Border Medal (In my mind he deserved the medal).
Ponting is one of the best batters in the world and had led his team to almost unparralled success. One average series by an entire team does not make a worlds worst captain...
Ponting as Test Captain
Played - 13
Won - 10
Lost - 1
Drew - 2
79.6% Success Rate (Second Best Australian with 10 or more tests)
Personal Form
Average - 59.42 (2X100, 6X50) average is 2.98 above entire career.
Ponting as One Day Captain
Played - 99
Won - 75 (Including 2003 World Cup)
Lost - 17
Tie - 2
NR - 5
80.85% Success Rate
Personal Form
Average - 41.71 (9X100, 17X50) average is .19 above entire career.
But hey, stuff it - one average series lets sack him as Captain, actually while where at it send him back to Tassie....
eddiesmith
8 Jul 2005, 22:44
He wont go back to Tassie, he is to good for Tassie these days
Who has Australia beaten in Pontings time? They have had 1 tough series and he wasnt captain and Aus won, he came back and they lost, coincidence? No
Yeah, I wasn’t even really having a go at you. Loads of people have been saying the same thing.
Can not fault them at all for this series. I’m sure they will get totally belted at some point but one is averaging 16.7 and the other 19. They are sensational figures for any bowler, let alone numbers 4 and 5.
Yep, I guess in any perceived underperforming side we go for the weakest link, because it is easier to put down the 4-5 bowler or the newer batsmen, it is a bit of a concern when problems run deeper than that. I'm confident they'll turn things around, but the future doesn't look as assured as the results of 2003 indicated.
spookism
8 Jul 2005, 23:04
Australian results with Ponting as Test Captain (DNP - Ponting Did Not Play In Those Tests)
SL won 197 runs won 1st n * 1st Test in SL 2003/04 at Galle
SL won 27 runs won 1st n * 2nd Test in SL 2003/04 at Kandy
SL won 121 runs won 1st n * 3rd Test in SL 2003/04 at Colombo
DNP SL won 149 runs lost 1st n 1st Test in Aus 2004 at Darwin
SL draw - lost 1st n * 2nd Test in Aus 2004 at Cairns
DNP Ind won 217 runs won 1st n 1st Test in Ind 2004/05 at Bangalore
DNP Ind draw - won 1st n 2nd Test in Ind 2004/05 at Chennai
DNP Ind won 342 runs won 1st n 3rd Test in Ind 2004/05 at Nagpur
Ind lost 13 runs lost 2nd n * 4th Test in Ind 2004/05 at Mumbai
NZ won inn & 156r lost 2nd n * 1st Test in Aus 2004/05 at Brisbane
NZ won 213 runs won 1st n * 2nd Test in Aus 2004/05 at Adelaide
Pak won 491 runs lost 1st n * 1st Test in Aus 2004/05 at Perth
Pak won 9 wickets lost 2nd n * 2nd Test in Aus 2004/05 at Melbourne
Pak won 9 wickets lost 2nd n * 3rd Test in Aus 2004/05 at Sydney
NZ won 9 wickets won 2nd n * 1st Test in NZ 2004/05 at Christchurch
NZ draw - lost 1st y * 2nd Test in NZ 2004/05 at Wellington
NZ won 9 wickets lost 2nd n * 3rd Test in NZ 2004/05 at Auckland
During Ponting's time as One day Captain his has missed 5 One Day Matches, Australia have a 4-1 win/lose record in those matches
Win vs. Ken in 2002
Win vs. Eng in 2002/03
Win vs. Ind in 2003/04
Lose vs. SL in 2003/04
Win vs. NZ in 2004/05
*These stats brought to you by the kind people at cricInfo**
The point I'm trying to make is, you cannot say that Ricky Ponting is the worst Captain going around, when these and the previous statistics prove. One ordinary series does not make for an ordinary team...
The question is will you still be saying that Ponting is the worst Captain ever if Australia wins the Ashes in a Whitewash and he averages 70 - 80 for the series????
eddiesmith
8 Jul 2005, 23:17
The point I'm trying to make is, you cannot say that Ricky Ponting is the worst Captain going around, when these and the previous statistics prove. One ordinary series does not make for an ordinary team...
The question is will you still be saying that Ponting is the worst Captain ever if Australia wins the Ashes in a Whitewash and he averages 70 - 80 for the series????
Such unbelievable teams he beat, The Kiwis, the Pakis and Sri lanka. One time in the past they may have been good, not anymore
IF, very big IF there as it is highly unlikely. Australia would be far better off under Gilly or Warne. Also they aint as arrogant and snobbish as the boring ********
spookism
8 Jul 2005, 23:30
Ponting - Best Captain for Australia
Gilly - Misses out by a whisker as captain
Warne - Seriously, no. Warnie = Best Spinner in the World, but nothing else.
I Don't wanna start a fight, I mean we are all allowed to have our own opinions - but you cannot say that someone with the records that Ponting has, that he is the worst Captain ever - lets not forget that we had a certain K. Hughes captain us for a while...
eddiesmith
8 Jul 2005, 23:32
Ponting - Best Captain for Australia
Gilly - Misses out by a whisker as captain
Warne - Seriously, no. Warnie = Best Spinner in the World, but nothing else.
I Don't wanna start a fight, I mean we are all allowed to have our own opinions - but you cannot say that someone with the records that Ponting has, that he is the worst Captain ever - lets not forget that we had a certain K. Hughes captain us for a while...
I wish Ponting hadnt gotten injured in India, then Aus would never have won there
Wicked Lester
11 Jul 2005, 18:37
Christ you blokes are harsh.
Ponting's captaincy record to date is superb - better than Waugh's.
I suppose half the posters here were ready to lynch Waugh when we only drew the first series he captained in the West Indies, or the away series we lost to Sri Lanka, or that series in India where Tugga's aggression at all costs cost us the series, or our obvious difficulties during Tugga's last series as captain when he was accused repeatedly of letting the situation meander and lacking the instinct of Mark Taylor.
But this is beside the point. Steve Waugh as captain had the luxury of Glen McGrath and Jason gillespie at their absolute peak along with the spin genius of Warne or MacGill. For the most part several of the batsmen were similarly at the peak of their powers.
It is Ponting's fate to have inherited a team that has climbed the peaks and must now enter that slow but steady process of decline. McGrath and Warne (once in a generation bowlers) can see the end in sight, injuries and age appear to be consuming Gillespie quicker than we could have imagined, Kasprowicz has little time left and Waugh's great favourite Brett Lee has not come on as hoped (lord know's many on this board have called for his head, only to be presently changing their mind).
A captain can only be as good as his cattle let him. Waugh looked uninspiring whenever he was robbed of his prime attacking weapons or things didn't go his way. Even the great Fleming of New Zealand looked second rate last summer.
Ás McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist, Hayden, Gillespie, Langer and Martyn progressively depart the scene over th coming 3 years the team is going to increasingly struggle. Pity help Ponting. The vultures will be looking for a scapegoat.
I can picture him now, bowing to public opinion and resigning the captaincy in 2008, aged 33-34, and retiring soon after. One of Australia's greatest batsman, hounded to an early retirement because he had the misfortune to take the helm of the Titanic just as someone aloft shouted "iceberg".
Cooldude
11 Jul 2005, 18:44
TBH: You can have Ganguly captaining this side and he'd have as good a record as Ponting
Taylor was a tactical genius, he utilized Warne to the fullest and won many matches due to that, Waugh doesn't have anywhere near the tactical instinct that Taylor had, but his quality was his ruthlessness in his captaincy, leading the way with the bat when his team needs him, and constant aggressive, relentless cricket.
Ponting has neither of those qualities
He is too conservative and laid back.
Chris Cairns did say that even his mum can captain this Australian side, he's right, it's easily just to throw the ball to McGrath and Warne and tell them to do the work.
Such unbelievable teams he beat, The Kiwis, the Pakis and Sri lanka. One time in the past they may have been good, not anymore
IF, very big IF there as it is highly unlikely. Australia would be far better off under Gilly or Warne. Also they aint as arrogant and snobbish as the boring ********
Just face it Ed, we own the world at cricket.