Has the VFL lost its soul?

[Motty]

I reckon that the VFL has become a shell of its former self. The matches I have seen since the VFA became the AFL Twos ... sorry VFL ... have shown me that the second tier of football in Victoria has become pretty soulless.

This is coming from someone who was lucky enough to see the VFA's halcyon years of the late 70s and early 80s when crowds of 10,000 would attend the match of the day at grounds such as Preston, Sandringham, Dandenong and Port Melbourne and a crowd of 1,500 was considered pretty poor, even by Division 2 standards. Nowadays, a four figure crowd has club officials breaking out in celebration.

The VFL matches I have been to since the late 90s have been boring and listless compared to the passion shown at grass roots level and the old VFA competition. The only deeply interested spectators seem to be the ones who want to know everything about everyone on their AFL side's list and want to see which players may rise from the "Twos" to the "Ones".

I believe that the liveliness will return to the VFL when the names of the teams mean something again, rather than an AFL reserves side with a compromised history - such as Box Hill Hawks/Mustangs or the blandly named "Scorpions".

[thurgood33]

completely agree!!

[aj1981]

I reckon that the VFL has become a shell of its former self. The matches I have seen since the VFA became the AFL Twos ... sorry VFL ... have shown me that the second tier of football in Victoria has become pretty soulless.

This is coming from someone who was lucky enough to see the VFA's halcyon years of the late 70s and early 80s when crowds of 10,000 would attend the match of the day at grounds such as Preston, Sandringham, Dandenong and Port Melbourne and a crowd of 1,500 was considered pretty poor, even by Division 2 standards. Nowadays, a four figure crowd has club officials breaking out in celebration.

The VFL matches I have been to since the late 90s have been boring and listless compared to the passion shown at grass roots level and the old VFA competition. The only deeply interested spectators seem to be the ones who want to know everything about everyone on their AFL side's list and want to see which players may rise from the "Twos" to the "Ones".

I believe that the liveliness will return to the VFL when the names of the teams mean something again, rather than an AFL reserves side with a compromised history - such as Box Hill Hawks/Mustangs or the blandly named "Scorpions".

It's very interesting what you say here Motty. I feel many, many old VFA supporters would completely and utterly agree with you. See first and foremost these days, the VFA/VFL is simply being referred to as the AFL reserves, and it is a shame. I mean if you have a look, the standard of football per se has risen with the influx of AFL-listed talent, but the passion of the supporters and the players to die for the jumper, etc., it just has been eroded by this blending of the AFL and VFL. I mean you are spot-on, at many of the games these days, we are seeing fans of VFL teams' AFL-aligned sides who are simply there to check on their 'twos' players, rather than passionate supporters of that particular VFL side. I can also tell you that the media reporting on the VFL are specifically instructed to report on how AFL-listed players have played, with priority over the VFL-listed players. It has basically become a glorified AFL reserves, and that's a real shame.

With the Scorpions, it's more than likely that from next season they'll be known as the 'Casey Scorpions', with their move to Casey Fields in Cranbourne. I totally agree that Box Hill should return to the Mustangs nickname, and Coburg should DEFINITELY return to being the Lions. Forget the fact that the 'Tigers' nickname has no history with Coburg, the fact that there already exists a Tigers team in the VFL shows that there's only room for one in this league.

As far as the other things I've spoken about, does anyone see any other way of maybe altering things somehow, to get the passion and heart back for the VFL teams? Something to think about, anyway.

[TuskenRaider]

I'm with you people. But I'm not sure it can be revived now. A few of the VFL clubs (eg. Coburg, which in all probability wouldn't exist anymore if not for the alliance) were struggling before the AFL clubs' partnerships so something probably needed to be done.

It was a waste of time to change the name from VFA to VFL to begin with. That in itself didn't help. And you're right about people going to watch their AFL listed players. A lot of them have no idea of the VFL list players. At the VFL Grand Final last year i was sitting next to some Melbourne supporters and all they did was barrack for their Melbourne boys, they had no idea of the Sandy players.

To make matters worse, how often do you see supporters turning up in the AFL colours/jumpers.

One more thing that denegrates the competition - as you have already stated - is the constant reminder that it is reserves football. It is top level football.

I'm getting a bit off the point - yes, it has lost it's soul. I remember going out to watch Sandy -v- Prahran in the mid 80's when I was young and I sure learnt a bit about football tribalism that day!

[Adrian Shelton]

It seems to me from what i've read on this site and places like Phil Clearys column in inside footy that the wonderful and wise Mr Gannon doesn't want that to happen, we all have to be 'cookie cutter' fans now remember!! :mad:

[Kooley]

I agree Motty. SEN cover VFL football and they try to sell it by saying are interested in grass roots football. Thats bull.sh.t they are only interested in the AFL players running around in the AFL and as soon as the AFL Broadcasting rights come up they will drop the VFL like a hot potato. There is very little interest in the VFL these days, apart from following the AFL listed players.

[TuskenRaider]

Grass Roots Football. Hardly VFL, but it was never grass roots football. Nothing makes me laugh more. Especially when you see someone like Nick Holland running round who's on god knows how much money.

Look a bit further out in the metro & country leagues and you'll find your grass roots football.

[celtic_pride]

I would assume that there would have been a fair few Collingwood fans who followed the Preston/Northen Bullants before they alligned themselves with Carlton.
Probably be enough to put them off the club I reckon.
I'm also ticked off at the selfishness/stupidity of Richmond for insisting that their feeder club be called the Coburg Tigers, when there is already an team with the Tigers monkier (Werribee) in the VFL.

[Motty]

TuskenRaider, I totally agree!

The VFA was grass roots, the VFL certainly isn't - no matter how much anyone pretends it is.

That's why I prefer to go to local and bush footy - true tribal spirit. Coburg v Preston (sorry, Northern Bullants) doesn't have the same ring as Wangaratta v Wangaratta Rovers or Mitcham v Vermont. Definitely not since the mid '90s.

[Kingpin]

I concur totally with what has been written prior on this thread.

One of the things I find a little odd with the team from here (Devils), is that when they play away at VFL (VFA) grounds, most of them have cars around the boundary, old wooden stands, open paddocks next to the ground, tiny little amatuer scoreboards etc playing in front of a few hundred spectators.
Gives a good suburban feel to it.

Yet the Devils are demanding that they play thier games in modern stadiums with covered plastic seats, having great big coaches boxes with enough room for the entire Moscow State Circus to fit in to them, they want changerooms to have modern facilities which must include a coaches ante room.
Media facilities must be "top-notch". If a ground is muddy, then AFL Tasmania will grant them a helicopter to dry the ground out.
They demand protected sponsors (can't have any of that local club riff-raff having a sponsor can we?)
If the siren isn't loud enough, then money must be spent ASAP replacing it so as Armstrong is kept happy, crowds must be over 3000 or there is whingeing from AFL Tasmania.

It sort of reminds me of having an AFL club complete with its bells and whistles lining up in a country league.
I wish the VFL would close ranks on the Devils and kick them out.
It was only formed because football administrators here were too lazy and incompetant to fix the problems of the TFL, thus folding 121-years of tradition to suck up to the likes of Ken Gannon.

[Motty]

Nice sentiments Tigers!

From all the talk I've heard on both sides of the strait, the North and South "shall ne'er be united" and will never have the best 30-odd players in the state playing for the "Hobart Devils" FC.

That in itself seems to fly in the face of the purpose of the team. Personally, I sense that AFLT still see the Devils as their chance to showcase themselves as an organisation worthy of holding an AFL licence ... and that will only happen when we have a 24-team, 2-division AFL - i.e. NEVER!

[footyman]

See first and foremost these days, the VFA/VFL is simply being referred to as the AFL reserves, and it is a shame.
.
You referred to it as the "reserves" once in your call yesterday mate...slip of the tongue?

[pazza]

It's difficult to say anything really when your own side is part of an AFL identity. But, I am sure those who were there today (not me sadly) would say the way people have taken to Bendigo now that Essendon affiliation has been made and the cohesion between the two is now such that the Bendigo Bombers now lead the competition, would say it has strengthened football in central Victoria.

Some would say the effort today up there had Queen Elizabeth Oval erupt.

Now...when Bendigo were the Diggers, could have they ever dreamed the day that such scenes would be now occuring?

[Lovett-Murray]

It's difficult to say anything really when your own side is part of an AFL identity. But, I am sure those who were there today (not me sadly) would say the way people have taken to Bendigo now that Essendon affiliation has been made and the cohesion between the two is now such that the Bendigo Bombers now lead the competition, would say it has strengthened football in central Victoria.

Some would say the effort today up there had Queen Elizabeth Oval erupt.

Now...when Bendigo were the Diggers, could have they ever dreamed the day that such scenes would be now occuring?

I just thought I'd say that QE Oval is absolutely beautiful.

[onslaught]

I'm not sure its sold its soul.. but its definitely out for rent at the moment. I get a bit concerned when I see VFL players that would kill for a senior VFL game, but dont get the opportunities, when some AFL-listed players look disinterested.

I think there are still some some passionate club supporters (I'm one), but the heavy media bias on the AFL players going about in the comp does no service to the VFL at all.

The Herald-Sun and SEN both have a very heavy AFL bias, which barely covers the games at all... just some of the AFL players going around.


'carn the Borough!

[Motty]

Pazza,

I was wondering whether you have any affiliation with a Bendigo League side? From what I have heard, the impact on the Diggers/Bombers (especially the establishment of a "Reserves" side) has been significant.

Also, I have heard that supporters have drifted off at local level because some good BFL talent has been taken by the Bendigo 2's with little chance of rising up the ladder with the rules of the day in vogue.

Therefore, I suppose it could be concluded that Essendon has bought the soul of central Victorian football - for good or bad we are yet to know.

Anyone agree or have a view to the contrary?

[pazza]

Not personally no.

There have been whispers up that way though that the Bendigo League weren't altogether happy that the Bendigo Bombers were established a couple of years back, but, it would seem that it hasn't effected the footy up there. From what I have heard, Bendigo League side Gisborne were happy, as are the bendigo League umpires.

[My North]

another problem with the VFL is that there is a high number of turnover players from year to year,

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Before I knew anything about VFA footy, I use to travel country Victoria
( late 80's early 90's) from Adelaide with a Paint company, converting Victorian Painters from National Brands and ther local brand to a SA based company...

On my travels I would stop in on a fellow in Koondrook/Barham area. In his house he had all this VFA paraphenalia,that I'd never seen or heard of before, he was in his 60's and a lovely man..He taught me much about the "Buroughs" and his life growing up in Port Melbourne. Passionate, but saddened on what he saw as the imminant demise of the VFA with the advent of National football in Australia.

The chap told me of all the G.Fs he played in and of premiership glory back in the 50's..

I unfortunately cant remember his name, but he left such a real mark on me re the history of Non AFL/VFL history..

I am glad I met him and had even a little taste of Passionate non VFL ..VFA football.

PA1870

[aj1981]

You referred to it as the "reserves" once in your call yesterday mate...slip of the tongue?

Footyman, I must apologize if I did call it the seconds on the weekend, I certainly don't like it being called "the seconds", so I'll have to be vigilant in my calling in coming weeks. Thanks for pointing it out, it has been noted

[caveman]

It's difficult to say anything really when your own side is part of an AFL identity. But, I am sure those who were there today (not me sadly) would say the way people have taken to Bendigo now that Essendon affiliation has been made and the cohesion between the two is now such that the Bendigo Bombers now lead the competition, would say it has strengthened football in central Victoria.

Some would say the effort today up there had Queen Elizabeth Oval erupt.

Now...when Bendigo were the Diggers, could have they ever dreamed the day that such scenes would be now occuring?

I moved to Bendigo 3 years ago and thought I would follow the Bombers in the VFL. Unfortunately I couldnt get over them being the Bombers (I am a cats fan). Yes the diggers werent getting anywhere but why do the AFL clubs need their names and colours???

It really annoys me as I was brought up in Coburg and yes they needed Richmonds help but COBURG ARE NOT TIGERS!!!. THEY ARE LIONS!!! I dont even mind AFL listed players in the comp but let the clubs keep their names.

I am rapt that Bendigo are going really well but they have alienated a lot of supporters by becoming the Essendon Reserves Team and the sad thing is they could have avoided this by keeping the club name and jumper.

WHAT A JOKE! :mad:

[Kingpin]

I am rapt that Bendigo are going really well but they have alienated a lot of supporters by becoming the Essendon Reserves Team and the sad thing is they could have avoided this by keeping the club name and jumper.

WHAT A JOKE! :mad:

Very well said Caveman. I see this sort of suicidal mistake committed almost every year by no-brainer football & club administrators, and 99% of the time it results in supporters walking out in droves, loss of respect in the community for the club, and loss of tradition.

Why do football administrators NOT LEARN?

http://www.amwu.asn.au/images/baker-phillip_web2.jpg
This arrogant buffoon was the man responsible for murdering the Hobart Football Club with this sort of short-sighted, arrogance and ignorance.

[pazza]

I moved to Bendigo 3 years ago and thought I would follow the Bombers in the VFL. Unfortunately I couldnt get over them being the Bombers (I am a cats fan). Yes the diggers werent getting anywhere but why do the AFL clubs need their names and colours???

It really annoys me as I was brought up in Coburg and yes they needed Richmonds help but COBURG ARE NOT TIGERS!!!. THEY ARE LIONS!!! I dont even mind AFL listed players in the comp but let the clubs keep their names.

I am rapt that Bendigo are going really well but they have alienated a lot of supporters by becoming the Essendon Reserves Team and the sad thing is they could have avoided this by keeping the club name and jumper.

WHAT A JOKE! :mad:

All fair and valid points.

It was a situation that both did not want to get involved in, but, both gave it thought over a long period.

According to the paperwork I have seen from Essendon itself, to run a team in the VFL, it was costing Essendon a significant amount to standalone (I think it was a high 6-figure sum for the licence alone).

I can also say there was a lot of dismay down in Melbourne over the merger...and there still is in some quarters of the Essendon membership and fan-base.

I do take the point that the Diggers should have remained in place and that it could utilise the Essendon list as well - but, like it or lump it, we aren't in charge of the situation as fans!

Just while in here, very happy to announce that Bendigo has been able to officially a secure a home final in the first week. Now that will be a big week up there (and it's a Friday night final)

[JF_Bay_22_SCG]

completely agree!!

I do too. I watched a couple of matches on Fox once and was shocked as to how dull and lifeless they were. Compare that with the SANFL where fans are still passionate about their clubs, and crowds are still often quite sizeable and raucous.

Interestingly I can see a direct parallel with the SFL here in Sydney. Gone are the days when St George wore red and white and were called the Saints, Baulkham Hills were the Falcons, and North Shore were the Bears. Now every club is alligned with an AFL club. St George are the Crows, Campbelltown are the Roos, we have the East Coast Eagles. One's club allegiances are now not based on locality but being an affiliate of an AFL side. I occasionally go and watch North Shore games, but cannot bond with the club because of their allegiance to Essendon. Likewise Wests with Collingwood.

I'm happy to go and watch a game regardless. But when your local club is now just a wolf in sheep's clothing, what is the point of keeping on going?

JF

[ben.carbonaro]

It's a bummer how the media are instructed, because there are some absolute freaks out there running around in the VFL and don't get the recognition that they deserve.

I work for a VFL club as a football analyst/statisitician so am more than willing to stick up for a competiton that is NOT simply an AFL reserves competition.

It's a bugger that a lot of the true VFA supporters have driafted away, mainly because they are upset with what has happened since the alignments have been in place with AFL clubs.

[caveman]

It's a bummer how the media are instructed, because there are some absolute freaks out there running around in the VFL and don't get the recognition that they deserve.

I work for a VFL club as a football analyst/statisitician so am more than willing to stick up for a competiton that is NOT simply an AFL reserves competition.

It's a bugger that a lot of the true VFA supporters have driafted away, mainly because they are upset with what has happened since the alignments have been in place with AFL clubs.

I do understand Ben that it isnt simply an AFL reserves comp as Bendigo Bombers have some really good players who are not afl listed but why did the AFL clubs have to take over the identity of the older clubs. That is just plain ridiculous.

For once in my life I will say well done to Collingwood for sending players to the Williamstown Seagulls! If all the clubs had done this, we could of had a great state competition that was well supported!

I for one know that Bendigo could have been a HUGE success if they had kept their name and colours. Yes they have done well and obviously now that they are winning the crowds are bigger but they would be tripling the crowd if it wassnt bloody Essendon! :mad:

[pazza]

I hope the post 3 points up from your last one caveman might have addressed some of the issues. Sad I know, but, I think you can see why the move was done in that case.