Are these Cats pussies, or tomcats? [Archive]

Asgardian

17 Oct 2001, 03:45

Continuing on a theme, I have done reviews of 3 team lists so far, and frankly none seemed overly impressive.
Lets see how the Cats stand up man by man, remember, at this stage I am not aware of any delistings or retirements other than Hockings.
I try my best to be fair and impartial, see what you guys reckon

Ezra Bray :- He is an unknown for me
Ronnie Burns :- This guy is easy to upset, but his good is great
Paul Chapman :- Build wise looks like Diesel, play wise not close
David Clarke :- Pack skirter, nice skills when clear
Joel Corey :- Plenty of ability to work with here
Paul Corrigan :- Back up player only, will he stay on list?
Corey Enright :- Good type, should consolidate a place
Daniel Foster :- Groomed for key position, may take time
Ben Graham :- Always looks like he should be better than he is
Brent Grgic :- Hack, why did you bother?
Tom Harley :- Honest, gives a contest
Adam Houlihan :- Had one too many drinks last night didn't he
Joshua Hunt :- Got some work to do, but he should get there
Glenn Kilpatrick :- Semi hack now
Steven King :- His 2001 disappointed, he is better than that
Kent Kingsley :- Has anyone coached him how to be a forward
Cameron Ling :- Heard a lot, but now time to deliver
Daniel Lowther :- Hack
Tim McGrath :- Semi hack now
Joel McKay :- Should have done more by now
David Mensch :- Hack
Darren Milburn :- Over-rated, plays like a hack
Cameron Mooney :- Tough guy, go get the ball son
Jason Mooney :- Will he survive the cut?
Danny O'Brien :- Time to step up, if he can?
James Rahilly :- Back up player at best
Peter Riccardi :- Class player, injuries may be taking their toll
Brenton Sanderson :- Plays the sweeper to perfection
Matthew Scarlett :- Lose the tough guy stuff to get better
Brad Sholl :- Looked out of sorts in 2001
Hamish Simpson :- Hack
Jason Snell :- Hope he mentally recovers from the break
David Spriggs :- Midfield hopes are in his hands
Peter Street :- Damn this guy is big, good back up
Mitchell White :- Not the force he once was
David Wojcinski :- Servicable, still has work to do
Marc Woolnough :- Damn knees, has talent

Where the hell are the star players that you normally associate with Geelong teams?
Sorry guys, but this looks like a bleak winter coming up in 2002 for the Cats

JUBJUB

17 Oct 2001, 14:34

Well thats the biggest load of crap I've read this year :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

tragicforces

17 Oct 2001, 14:35

Originally posted by Asgardian

Ezra Bray :- He is an unknown for me. - Three shoulder reconstructions. Future uncertain. Deserves one last chance.
Ronnie Burns :- This guy is easy to upset, but his good is great. - Refused anger management counselling. Needs to play every game for the Cats to take a tilt at the finals.
Paul Chapman :- Build wise looks like Diesel, play wise not close. - Smart around the goals. Don't go bagging this bloke, he'll make you eat your words.
David Clarke :- Pack skirter, nice skills when clear - Burst acceleration often gets him out of trouble. Not to good in close.
Joel Corey :- Plenty of ability to work with here - Give him time. First round pick in '99. Will deliver.
Paul Corrigan :- Back up player only, will he stay on list? - May go, especially if Cats nab experienced midfielder in pre-season draft.
Corey Enright :- Good type, should consolidate a place. Future superstar.
Daniel Foster :- Groomed for key position, may take time. Agreed, hence McGrath's extra year down back.
Ben Graham :- Always looks like he should be better than he is. Always played out of position. Should be in the NFL!
Brent Grgic :- Hack, why did you bother? - Fresh start, could come good.
Tom Harley :- Honest, gives a contest - Yep
Adam Houlihan :- Had one too many drinks last night didn't he - How do you know ?
Joshua Hunt :- Got some work to do, but he should get there - Solid boy.
Glenn Kilpatrick :- Semi hack now. Woud beat the pants off you.
Steven King :- His 2001 disappointed, he is better than that. - Needs to forego his own safety for the ball
Kent Kingsley :- Has anyone coached him how to be a forward -I think at Geelong they reverse-engineer....
Cameron Ling :- Heard a lot, but now time to deliver - Has delivered and will continue to deliver
Daniel Lowther :- Hack. Mate, you should get a thesaurus
Tim McGrath :- Semi hack now. Tell that to his face...
Joel McKay :- Should have done more by now. Been injured
David Mensch :- Hack. biting my tongue!
Darren Milburn :- Over-rated, plays like a hack. Your opinion only of course!!
Cameron Mooney :- Tough guy, go get the ball son -Not the man!
Jason Mooney :- Will he survive the cut? No
Danny O'Brien :- Time to step up, if he can? - He can't
James Rahilly :- Back up player at best- That's what you think
Peter Riccardi :- Class player, injuries may be taking their toll - You may be right
Brenton Sanderson :- Plays the sweeper to perfection - Take note Collingwood
Matthew Scarlett :- Lose the tough guy stuff to get better - Huh?
Brad Sholl :- Looked out of sorts in 2001 - Could do an Anthony Rock?
Hamish Simpson :- Hack - Had his chances
Jason Snell :- Hope he mentally recovers from the break - Will be back stronger
David Spriggs :- Midfield hopes are in his hands - Hope not!!!
Peter Street :- Damn this guy is big, good back up - Needs more game time
Mitchell White :- Not the force he once was - Does that mean he's a 'hack'?
David Wojcinski :- Servicable, still has work to do - Needs to step up.
Marc Woolnough :- Damn knees, has talent. - Ray of hope

Where the hell are the star players that you normally associate with Geelong teams?
Sorry guys, but this looks like a bleak winter coming up in 2002 for the Cats :D

Asgardian

17 Oct 2001, 15:00

Originally posted by JUBJUB
Well thats the biggest load of crap I've read this year :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well come on ace, tell me what evaluations you disagree with, be specific like I have, so some discussion can take place.

Don't take the easy cop out of saying "that's all crap", at least I put some time and effort into my post

Catman

17 Oct 2001, 18:09

Originally posted by Asgardian
Don't take the easy cop out of saying "that's all crap", at least I put some time and effort into my post

How? You basically called everyone on our list a hack.

JUBJUB

17 Oct 2001, 20:10

Originally posted by Catman

How? You basically called everyone on our list a hack.

Exactly,he's full of crap.The only ones he hasn't bagged are Ex-Port players.

Cats2001!

17 Oct 2001, 21:00

I'm actually glad that we are thought to be not that good by people, as we always perform best when our backs are against the walls and everyone is expecting us to be crap. We always perform the opposite to what people think!

Eg:

1995 - Expected to miss the finals after poor GF finish in '94 - we made the GF again
1996 - Expected to be right up there again - were not
1997 - Gazza gone, expecting a bleak year, but were practicly the best team of that year, led to us missing out on going all the way by the stiffist of circumstances.
1998 - After the unfairness of 1997, in 1998 Geelong was reguarded as the best Victorian bet to take the flag. Nowhere near it!
1999 - We were premiership material until round 6, when everyone had us down to take the pennant!
2000 - Expected to be a bleak year again - we made the finals!
2001 - Expected to make the finals again, diddnt

and that leads to 2002

-Our team is labled to be full of hacks with a bleak winter coming along - lets wait and see what happens!

Asgardian

17 Oct 2001, 22:11

Originally posted by JUBJUB

Exactly,he's full of crap.The only ones he hasn't bagged are Ex-Port players.

Okay, what I asked before was for you to tell me which players you disagree with me, have a look at these descriptions, does this really sound like I have bagged your whole list?

Ronnie Burns :- This guy is easy to upset, but his good is great
David Clarke :- Pack skirter, nice skills when clear
Joel Corey :- Plenty of ability to work with here
Corey Enright :- Good type, should consolidate a place
Daniel Foster :- Groomed for key position, may take time
Ben Graham :- Always looks like he should be better than he is
Tom Harley :- Honest, gives a contest
Joshua Hunt :- Got some work to do, but he should get there
Steven King :- His 2001 disappointed, he is better than that
Kent Kingsley :- Has anyone coached him how to be a forward
Cameron Ling :- Heard a lot, but now time to deliver
Cameron Mooney :- Tough guy, go get the ball son
James Rahilly :- Back up player at best
Peter Riccardi :- Class player, injuries may be taking their toll
Brenton Sanderson :- Plays the sweeper to perfection
Matthew Scarlett :- Lose the tough guy stuff to get better
Brad Sholl :- Looked out of sorts in 2001
Jason Snell :- Hope he mentally recovers from the break
David Spriggs :- Midfield hopes are in his hands
Peter Street :- Damn this guy is big, good back up
Mitchell White :- Not the force he once was
David Wojcinski :- Servicable, still has work to do
Marc Woolnough :- Damn knees, has talent

Now that is 23 players who I thought were footballers, some I have made comment like Brad Sholl who didn't play up to form in 2001, but I didn't bake him, others like Cameron Mooney I made comments on what I believe will improve the player, it doesn't mean I consider him to be a hack. Finally with guys like Mitchell White, I just don't reckon he has his best footy in front of him any more, again, that doesn't mean I reckon he is a hack.

As for some of the others I did label as hacks, how many of them will actually stay on your list for 2002?

Come on, tell me player by player where you disagree with my commments, I'm not trying to flame, just trying to get some feedback.

So come on ace, lets talk about Geelong's players

nolsey77

17 Oct 2001, 23:33

When you see Port win a final you can do what you want, why dont you go on the essendon board and have a crak at them.

Asgardian- Big Footys Robert Walls

Fall Out Boy

17 Oct 2001, 23:40

That list was pretty fair i think, but then again i have both eyes open. ;)

Only two i would disagree with are Matthew Scarlett (he's not overly aggresive, fantastic player) and CamLing (definitely showed what he can do last season, tore Cousins apart in Perth.)

Cheers

jod23

18 Oct 2001, 00:41

Geez well after seeing Geelongs list im pretty confident that the Eagles can avoid bottom...apart from Graham and King, there list is very weak.

Getting better everyday for the Eagles..:)

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 09:25

Originally posted by jod23
Geez well after seeing Geelongs list im pretty confident that the Eagles can avoid bottom...apart from Graham and King, there list is very weak.

Getting better everyday for the Eagles..:)

The Eagles are a woeful outfit!!! At least Geelong were competitive for the most part in 2001, even though it ended as a bad year. How many games did West Coast lose by more than 10 goals in 2001?? Too many to want to remember, including two thrashings against Geelong. They copped enough spankings to last a decade.

All West Coast have is on their list Ben Cousins, who as phatandfreaky rightly pointed out, got touched up by a second year player in Cameron Ling when the clubs met at Subiaco this year.

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 09:46

Thanks for your thoughts, Asgardian, unlike JUBJUB who can get temperamental when you criticise his team, I don't think it was the biggest load of crap I've read this year. All in all, your evaluation of Geelong's list was pretty accurate.

I do disagree with a few such as Cameron Ling who did deliver in 2001. As for Darren Milburn, well you're the first person I've ever heard call him over-rated, I thought quite the opposite. But there's always going to be a few points of debate, but for the majority I think you weren't far off.

But to say we're in for another bad year is drawing the long bow. You can't just look at the current state of club's list to judge likely future performance. All that tells you is the reputations of its players. In 2000 when we surprised everyone and had a reasonably good season, it wasn't the reputations of our players that won games, it was the improvement in our developing players that got under the guard of opposition sides.

Going into 2002, we have a large group of players going into their 3rd or 4th seasons, it will be the ability of these players to take the next step that could push us back into the finals.

Here are the players I think most likely to take the next step:

Cameron Ling - despite injuries in 2001, proved he is a mature and complete player. Can run in the middle or play up forward.

Corey Enright - stepped up in 2001 and will look to establish himself as a senior player. Has all the tools of a quality midfielder.

David Spriggs - regular senior player who showed signs of being a future superstar in his first two seasons but struggled toward season's end. Will get fitter and stronger.

David Clarke - established senior player, good ball-winner with the ability to kick goals, improving physical side of his game.

Cameron Mooney - showed he run out a game in the ruck as well as up forward, has terrific physical presence, which he needs to learn to control.

Joel Corey - another quality midfielder who needs to improve his decision making at times, good stage in his career to step up.

David Wocjinksi - pacy defender/wingman who showed promise at senior level in 2000, has been developing in the VFL.

Daniel Foster - only limited opportunities at senior level, but looked the part when given a chance. Despite injuries early this year, has been an excellent performer at VFL level.

Asgardian, you were looking to the future in your prediction of the club's fortunes, but in evaluating the players you looked at the present. You have to look at where the improvement could come from and judge on that basis, but it's all just speculation anyway. As Cats2001! said, Geelong have a habit of doing the unexpected, this isn't the first time we've been told to expect a rough season and it won't be the last.

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 09:52

Originally posted by Asgardian
Well come on ace, tell me what evaluations you disagree with, be specific like I have, so some discussion can take place.

Don't take the easy cop out of saying "that's all crap", at least I put some time and effort into my post

HERE HERE!! (take note JUBJUB and Catman)

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 11:05

Originally posted by Cats2001!
I'm actually glad that we are thought to be not that good by people, as we always perform best when our backs are against the walls and everyone is expecting us to be crap. We always perform the opposite to what people think!

And unfortunately, it's just as often it's easy to predict when Geelong will fall over . . . seemingly right at the time they need to stand up and take the next step.

JUBJUB

18 Oct 2001, 11:05

Originally posted by jod23
Geez well after seeing Geelongs list im pretty confident that the Eagles can avoid bottom...apart from Graham and King, there list is very weak.

Getting better everyday for the Eagles..:)

This coming from a WET TOAST supporter :o

Your club has just appointed a coach who would rather of coached Fremantle :p

John Worsfold will be the new Tony Shaw of coaching .

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 11:10

Originally posted by Red Rover

The Eagles are a woeful outfit!!! At least Geelong were competitive for the most part in 2001, even though it ended as a bad year. How many games did West Coast lose by more than 10 goals in 2001?? Too many to want to remember, including two thrashings against Geelong. They copped enough spankings to last a decade.

All West Coast have is on their list Ben Cousins, who as phatandfreaky rightly pointed out, got touched up by a second year player in Cameron Ling when the clubs met at Subiaco this year.

Spot on. WCE are nowhere near being a "decent" outfit. On the other hand, Geelong were competitive for at least 75% of the season. Had they been able to win close games against the Bulldogs and Melbourne (the second game), as well as one or two others, they would have challenged for the finals.

Then again, IMO, I would also factor in the notion that Geelong, to some extent, won games against teams which were generally "better" over the course of the entire season. This leaves you wondering, did Geelong overachieve on these particular occasions? Or was it underacheiving every other week?

For this reason it's hard to say exactly where Geelong are at. Are they rebuilding? Or are they two or three decent players off of being a finals contender??

Either way, the safest bet for the club will be to have modest expectations, and look to the positives, and build upon them. If the results are better than expected, then it will be a pleasant surprise.

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 11:21

Originally posted by Red Rover

HERE HERE!! (take note JUBJUB and Catman)

Red Rover, go and wash your mouth out with hot soapy water. :mad:

I'm appalled at your lack of respect for visionaries such as JUBJUB and Catman (who were the masterminds behind the old Geelong emblem, I'll have you know).

You know who you remind me of, Red Rover? Those guys down at KP when we went down there for round 21 this season. The particular group I am talking about, were those two groups of Geelong supporters, who were having a go at each other.

As it started, someone called Hocking a "mindless egocentric pooftah" (although, this wasn't the same guy who said B.Graham was holding Geelong Football Club to financial ransom). The response from a group in front, was one of anger. They turned around, and started laying it on this codger, calling him a "fairweather" supporter, to which he said "Geez, I was only joking. I'm from Geelong, so I don't really know what's going on". to which the other group replied "Well we're from Geelong as well! Want a beer?"

It seems as though anything at Geelong can be fixed by beer. Two groups of supporters, who at one moment, were to rip each other's giblets apart, to two groups of supporters who have forgotten all trespasses and are getting along as if they had been bossom buddies from years back. All due to the ofference of beer.

It's a good system.

JUBJUB

18 Oct 2001, 11:30

Originally posted by Red Rover
Thanks for your thoughts, Asgardian, unlike JUBJUB who can get temperamental when you criticise his team, I don't think it was the biggest load of crap I've read this year. All in all, your evaluation of Geelong's list was pretty accurate.
.

Red Rover
How many Geelong games do you go to each year ?
I'm just wondering if you see the team most weeks.

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 16:14

Originally posted by JUBJUB
Red Rover
How many Geelong games do you go to each year ?
I'm just wondering if you see the team most weeks.

I've been a club member for the last three years.

I went to 18 games in 2000, I missed one game in Victoria, but went to Sydney for a game and saw the final against Hawthorn.

This year I went to 13 out of the 16 games in Victoria, one of the ones I missed I watched live on TV from Shell Stadium, one I had to go away but saw the replay on TV, the other was the R22 Carlton game which I listened to on radio and watched the replay on TV.

I watch the interstate games on TV if Channel Seven bother to cover them.

I also went to the two Ansett Cup games in Victoria this year.

I see enough, JUBJUB.

I was at the Kangaroos game standing in the outer watching the boys play underwater. Anyone at that game deserves to be called a true supporter.

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 16:17

Originally posted by Red Rover

I see enough, JUBJUB.

That's what you say most weeks! :p :p Just jaggin'! ;) :D

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 16:24

You're in good form today, Olmy.;)

TigerTank

18 Oct 2001, 16:46

Asgardian and Cats fans.

As much as I would sincerely love to see the Cats do well, I am in almost total agreement with Asgardian's evaluation. A very honest and frank assessment of the list.

The Cats are very fragile on the field, and have to have a lot of things going for them to do well. They lack players who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and drag them over the line.

So much is dependent on King - in my opinion the best "credentialed" young ruckman in the competition. The Geelong midfield needs him to give them first use because they aren't big or strong enough to consistently win contested balls in the middle.

I disagree with Asgardian's assessment of Matthew Scarlett who I see as being as good as Darren Gaspar, only earlier in development (meaning he is now where Gaspar was 3 years ago and in 3 years time will be where Gaspar is now).

Forget about Ben Graham at Full back - wasted there and not tight enough. Graham absolutely must become a centre half forward (or centre half back, but the former is preferable).

I rate Ling, Spriggs and Sanderson, and Milburn can play (when he is not being a dill), but geez they're short on star quality.

One thing they do have is a very clever and tactical coach (Thompson is at least as good as Wallace in my opinion). The Cats struggle against good/average teams who are on their game, but can often upset better teams and make them play on the Cats' terms. A great coach really.

They win games by surprising the opposition with clever tactics or knocking them off their game, but if they don't break the opposition early, the odds are against them.

As I said, I'd love to see Geelong do well - they are "good for football", it's good for country Victoria, and they are a terrific club. But sadly, they simply don't have enough good players to play well every week.

TigerTank

18 Oct 2001, 16:49

And for the last frigging time - it's Hear! Hear!, not "here! here!"

Here! here! is what you say to a dog.

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 16:51

Originally posted by Olmy
You know who you remind me of, Red Rover? Those guys down at KP when we went down there for round 21 this season. The particular group I am talking about, were those two groups of Geelong supporters, who were having a go at each other.

Yes, I remember, quality entertainment, we'll write a book about that one-day.

But I just thought it was a poor reaction on the part of JUBJUB and Catman, to treat a genuine critique of our playing list with such contempt. They dismissed it right away - not very constructive - no wonder this board is usually a graveyard.

JUBJUB has a habit of making airy-fairy, huff-and-puff statements without bothering to back them up. If you strongly disagree with someone, why not point out where and why you disagree to form the basis of an argument? At least this stimulates discussion that may be constructive.

Any moron can just say, "that's a load of crap," not that JUBJUB is a moron, but has the ability to make himself look like one at times.

Red Rover

18 Oct 2001, 16:53

Originally posted by TigerTank
And for the last frigging time - it's Hear! Hear!, not "here! here!"

Here! here! is what you say to a dog.

Sorry, TigerTank and thanks for stopping by.

Being corrected by a Richmond supporter is a truly humbling experience. :(

TigerTank

18 Oct 2001, 16:57

I'm sorry Red Rover - it's just that almost everybody on Bigfooty says "here! here!", and it drives me nuts.

Nothing personal. Otherwise you are a polished performer. :)

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 18:00

Originally posted by TigerTank

Nothing personal. Otherwise you are a polished performer. :)

I don't think we want to know the full ramifications of statements like that . . . :o

Olmy

18 Oct 2001, 18:06

Originally posted by Red Rover

Yes, I remember, quality entertainment, we'll write a book about that one-day.

It's already on the way.

Originally posted by Red Rover

But I just thought it was a poor reaction on the part of JUBJUB and Catman, to treat a genuine critique of our playing list with such contempt. They dismissed it right away - not very constructive - no wonder this board is usually a graveyard.

Crap, that's just what BigFooty is great for! :D :D

Originally posted by Red Rover

JUBJUB has a habit of making airy-fairy, huff-and-puff statements without bothering to back them up.

Akin to one of your greatest players who now graces the media with such behavior. Obviously a successful and widely accepted technique, if his achievements are anything to go by.

Originally posted by Red Rover

If you strongly disagree with someone, why not point out where and why you disagree to form the basis of an argument? At least this stimulates discussion that may be constructive.

Why not? Because this is BigFooty, that's why not! The realm of the man, not some sissy tea party or literature conference, for crying out loud. "Oh Janet, I'm sorry to tell you, that I cannot entirely agree with . . . blah, blah, blah . . ."

Originally posted by Red Rover

Any moron can just say, "that's a load of crap," not that JUBJUB is a moron, but has the ability to make himself look like one at times.

That's a load of crap.

JUBJUB

18 Oct 2001, 18:47

Originally posted by Red Rover

But I just thought it was a poor reaction on the part of JUBJUB and Catman, to treat a genuine critique of our playing list with such contempt. They dismissed it right away - not very constructive - no wonder this board is usually a graveyard.

This board is a graveyard because me,CATMAN,CATS 2001 & Rickster use the 'Unofficial Geelong Messageboard'.

Why waste time typing the same thing twice ?

JUBJUB

18 Oct 2001, 18:50

Originally posted by Red Rover

JUBJUB has a habit of making airy-fairy, huff-and-puff statements without bothering to back them up. If you strongly disagree with someone, why not point out where and why you disagree to form the basis of an argument? At least this stimulates discussion that may be constructive.

and if we went on the Port Pitiful board and bagged nearly every player,who they not start getting abusive ?

I just wonder how ASGARDIAN can know so much about some of young players like Hunt & Chapman & others.

Catman

19 Oct 2001, 16:30

Originally posted by jod23
Geez well after seeing Geelongs list im pretty confident that the Eagles can avoid bottom...apart from Graham and King, there list is very weak.

Getting better everyday for the Eagles..:)

You signed a new coach, doesn't mean it is going to get any better than this year.

If our list is very weak, how did we flog you hacks by about 70 pts in both games this year?

jod23

19 Oct 2001, 19:49

Originally posted by Catman

You signed a new coach, doesn't mean it is going to get any better than this year.

If our list is very weak, how did we flog you hacks by about 70 pts in both games this year?

Well your list was ok last season but now its gone downhill. You lost Hocking and Murphy from your midfield, that has to hurt. And you lost probably your best forward in Bizzel. The Eagles on the other hand will have some players back next year like Braun, Morrison, Read, Seira etc .. plus we have some low picks for some youngsters.

That is why i think we will be better than you next season.

Cats2001!

19 Oct 2001, 21:15

Originally posted by jod23

Well your list was ok last season but now its gone downhill. You lost Hocking and Murphy from your midfield, that has to hurt. And you lost probably your best forward in Bizzel. The Eagles on the other hand will have some players back next year like Braun, Morrison, Read, Seira etc .. plus we have some low picks for some youngsters.

That is why i think we will be better than you next season.

Our list is not finalised yet. We may still pick up some great draft pics (Gazza junior included) and might even get Joe Misiti and Fabian Francis. Geelong is one of the only clubs with room in their salery cap for these types of players.

jod23

19 Oct 2001, 21:20

Originally posted by Cats2001!

Our list is not finalised yet. We may still pick up some great draft pics (Gazza junior included) and might even get Joe Misiti and Fabian Francis. Geelong is one of the only clubs with room in their salery cap for these types of players.

Yep thats true but dont count out WC picking up Misiti. Donnelly and Kemp have retired and a few players will be delisted, considering we made no trades then im sure we have some money floating around. Even though i dont want Misiti.

But right now your list sucks, granted it may get better.

Goldenblue

19 Oct 2001, 22:05

Its good to see how people point out to the beatings the WCE received last season. true, they were a wreck of a side, but I know they have the talent to do better than they showed last season. With Judge out of the way, I think the whole attitude of the club will change. Judge was bad for the WCE and I would say his AFL career is out the window. I am not one to say Woosha is the messiah who will lead the WC out of the wilderness. I think the first thing he will do is make the players rai9se their heads after a loss, under Judge, they gave up. he did not relate to the players.

Geelong I think will have a reasonable season next season. I see them anywhere between 8 and 12. They are a team of not much talent, but have good workhorses and also have a history of being a mediocre side and still getting into grand finals. You can never really estimate the cats season after season. A good write up, they turn out a dud of a season, a bad write up, they are likely to make the GF.

I know many have knocked WC for appointing Woosha. So be it. Lets wait and see what happens. Many talk about the fav son bull****, but I am sure over the years, there are fav sons who have done well too at all clubs. I just hope these type of detractors are not the same about Gazza junior at Geelong. Many are stating he will be a champion like his father, but we also heard that about David Bourke too. For the sake of Gazz Jr's career, I hope the media and the public do not out too much pressure on him, it could turn him into a failure. I wish him the best of luck.

Also Mitch White...man, I still shudder seeing you in an opposition jumper. Past your best sure, but I am sure one Scott Cummings is missing you at CHF......

Goldenblue

19 Oct 2001, 22:09

Originally posted by jod23

Even though i dont want Misiti.

True, I dont want him either, its a waste of money.....send him to the Saints...he may take over coaching the club mid season...

;)

jod23

19 Oct 2001, 22:15

Yes people always talk about the times we were belted but nobody talks about the win over Melbourne or the close loss and great comeback against the Swans or the 22 point loss to eventual premiers Brisbane...

dogboy23

20 Oct 2001, 09:54

The way I see it is Geelong are a well coached side of hard working players but just lack that little bit of polish but who can beat anyone on there day and are going through a rebuilding phase.Kingsley was great for you in the 2nd half of the year and Spriggs and Enright showed signs.Riccardi is always good,Milburn is underrated as is Scarlett.IMO Graham is the worst captain in the league but you would watch more Geelong games than me so im probably out of line there.King,Spriggs,Riccardi,Corey,Enright,Milburn,Burns,Clar ke(love this kid) and your strong back half gives you a solid base to work on.Your recruits this year should be concentrated on getting some class in to the line up.;)

Fall Out Boy

20 Oct 2001, 19:53

Originally posted by dogboy23
IMO Graham is the worst captain in the league

Just out of interest, what makes Ben the worst captain in the league?

BTW You're appraisal of our list was very accurate mate.

Cheers

JUBJUB

20 Oct 2001, 20:14

Originally posted by dogboy23
.IMO Graham is the worst captain in the league

Dogboy
Your post wasn't bad except for that stupid bloody line.

Your captain would be the most overrated player in the AFL.He has one good game every 6 weeks [if your lucky] & the media rave about how good he is.

BTW,whens he going to give that kid his 20cents back ? :p

Catman

21 Oct 2001, 18:02

Originally posted by dogboy23
IMO Graham is the worst captain in the league

Good analysis Dogboy. We certainly aren't a wooden spoon side, but we aren't a top 8 side, yet.

As for your comment on Graham, I agree with you. He's not a leader and doesn't do the things good leaders do. Such as kicking a vital goal, taking a big mark, doing the little things, like harassing, tackling etc.
He's probably not the worst skipper in the league, but he isn't far away.

Red Rover

22 Oct 2001, 09:20

Originally posted by jod23
Yes people always talk about the times we were belted but nobody talks about the win over Melbourne or the close loss and great comeback against the Swans or the 22 point loss to eventual premiers Brisbane...

Maybe because you got belted so many times. That win against Melbourne broke an 8 game losing streak where you were getting pumped week after week and the Demons weren't exactly at the top of their game either. If you expect people to rave about the Melbourne win after so many woeful performances, you're seriously deluded.

And as for the Sydney and Brisbane Lions losses, well they were superb losses. Losses like those are sure to see West Coast become a genuine top eight side next year. :p

Red Rover

22 Oct 2001, 09:59

Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Just out of interest, what makes Ben the worst captain in the league?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, there's no reasoning behind that statement.

But I tend to agree - to an extent. Whether or not he's the worst captain in the league, his on-field leadership doesn't really measure up to many other clubs' captains. However his off-field work is excellent, the way he comes across in the media is great for the club.

It depends what you look for in a captain, the physical presence of Steven King would probably make him into a better on-field leader than Benny, as too would Cameron Ling when his time comes, or even a Darren Milburn. But will these players make good ambasators for the club? This is what the club has to decide in years to come.

Every players has his strengths and weaknesses and maybe Benny's weaknesses are in the wrong areas to make a great capain.

Catman

22 Oct 2001, 18:01

Originally posted by Red Rover

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, there's no reasoning behind that statement.

But I tend to agree - to an extent. Whether or not he's the worst captain in the league, his on-field leadership doesn't really measure up to many other clubs' captains. However his off-field work is excellent, the way he comes across in the media is great for the club.

It depends what you look for in a captain, the physical presence of Steven King would probably make him into a better on-field leader than Benny, as too would Cameron Ling when his time comes, or even a Darren Milburn. But will these players make good ambasators for the club? This is what the club has to decide in years to come.

Every players has his strengths and weaknesses and maybe Benny's weaknesses are in the wrong areas to make a great capain.

That's how I feel Red Rover.
Off the field he is a great ambassador for the club but his leadership skills on the field aren't up to the top captains in the league, Eg. Voss, Hird, Carey etc.

tragicforces

23 Oct 2001, 18:24

Ben Graham is continually played out of position by Thompson. He needs to play CHB and direct traffic from there, then he might get the chance to settle down and lead the club.

PiesPremiers

26 Oct 2001, 09:39

Originally posted by Asgardian
Daniel Lowther :- Hack

Phwoar, give him a chance.
I know every Geelong supporter will come out and bag him, but honestly, was he ever given a chance?
His games in the 2's this year werent bad, coming back from injury.
I wouldnt be disappointed if Collingwood picked him up late in the draft. He is only 22

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 10:33

Originally posted by PiesPremiers

but honestly, was he ever given a chance?
His games in the 2's this year werent bad, coming back from injury.

NO,he wasn't given a chance.

He played one senior game this year when he came in as a late change.He did alright [against Brisbane @the Gabba] ,but then the player he replaced came back the following week,so they dropped him.

How he couldn't get more than one game,yet Houlihan got 14,I'll never know :mad:

I thing he could get picked by a team like Richmond or Collingwood.

Asgardian

26 Oct 2001, 13:43

Is it possible I have been vindicated in some of my reviews by the delistings from the Geelong squad?

:-)

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 14:44

Originally posted by Asgardian
Is it possible I have been vindicated in some of my reviews by the delistings from the Geelong squad?

:-)

What are you on about ? :confused:
Theres been no suprise de-listings.

Loz

26 Oct 2001, 14:45

Don't worry Asgardian i thought your summary was 100 percent correct. Geelong fans are hypocrites, they bag their team non-stop all the time then when someone dares to Call Mrs Danille Milburn a hack (which he is and a gutless thug as well)
they get too sensitive.
the Fact is that only one Geelong player would make Carlton's best starting 18 and that's Matt Scarlett (only because SOS has retired)

Red Rover

26 Oct 2001, 15:26

Originally posted by Loz
then when someone dares to Call Mrs Danille Milburn a hack (which he is and a gutless thug as well)
they get too sensitive.
the Fact is that only one Geelong player would make Carlton's best starting 18 and that's Matt Scarlett (only because SOS has retired)

Only one in your best 18?? Turn it up!! You say that now, but then you recruit our rejects. Carlton are starting to build a tradition of picking up players that we don't want and comfortably slotting them into your team.

That comment on Milburn has bitterness written all over it. You guys are just too sensitive about SOS. Haven't you ever seen a decent bump before?? It was a great bump, if it didn't involve a Carlton player maybe you could appreciate it. When Whitnall took out Stenglein I didn't hear any Carlton people wanting to outlaw the hip-and-shoulder.

Gutless? I'm not so sure, it seems in the spirit of the game, the ball was right there, Milburn was closing, SOS didn't protect himself, down he goes.

Maybe you need a history lesson, I should show you the old tapes of players like John Nicholls, David Rhys-Jones and the like, then you'll see real thuggery.

Milburn had a great year, and after a good bump, suddenly everyone's calling him a hack and a thug.

The truth is, Carlton would have him on their list without hesitation if it weren't for him finishing off their favourite son.

Loz

26 Oct 2001, 18:19

Your kidding Red Rover
Milburn is not good enough to get a game with Carlton's VFL side.
Don't insult my intelligence Puh-leeezeeee

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 18:46

Originally posted by Loz

the Fact is that only one Geelong player would make Carlton's best starting 18 and that's Matt Scarlett (only because SOS has retired)

Actually Tim McGrath would be the only player that could get a game at Carlscum.He's the only player over 30 years of age :p

Carlton_is_cool

26 Oct 2001, 19:58

show some repect jubjub

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 22:46

LOZ & Carlton_What_Ever,get off the Geelong section.Stick to the main board or your own club section.

carlton_95

26 Oct 2001, 22:55

make us chicken, bok bok!

After the comments you made about sos!

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 23:03

Originally posted by carlton_95
make us chicken, bok bok!

After the comments you made about sos!

Hey Prick,that was after comments made by LOZ on this site.

So P I S S OFF

Loz

26 Oct 2001, 23:03

Jub Jub

You infest the other boards all the time ya hypocrite.
Gee Whiz i know your annnoying and a geelong fan but seriously Practise What ya Preach.

Thanks for Murphy by the way.
SHould be a good pick up for Carlton

JUBJUB

26 Oct 2001, 23:06

Originally posted by Loz
Jub Jub

You infest the other boards all the time ya hypocrite.

What other boards ?
I went on the Carldung section in reply to you.I go on the North one,but we don't bag each other because they have respectable supporters [some Carlton don't have]

Why is it LOZ,that you & Carlton BOZO are always on line at the same time ?
Are you the same person

carlton_95

26 Oct 2001, 23:14

geez, get a life jubjub, i will defend my team to the end!

Loz

27 Oct 2001, 17:07

Don't worry Carlton 95
Jub Jub has the misfortune to barrack for Geelong
we should feel sorry for him and offer him our condolensces

Catman

28 Oct 2001, 16:24

Originally posted by Loz
Your kidding Red Rover
Milburn is not good enough to get a game with Carlton's VFL side.
Don't insult my intelligence Puh-leeezeeee

We don't need to insult your intelligence. Your doing a good enough job of it yourself.

Catman

28 Oct 2001, 16:31

Originally posted by Loz
Don't worry Asgardian i thought your summary was 100 percent correct. Geelong fans are hypocrites, they bag their team non-stop all the time then when someone dares to Call Mrs Danille Milburn a hack (which he is and a gutless thug as well)
they get too sensitive.
the Fact is that only one Geelong player would make Carlton's best starting 18 and that's Matt Scarlett (only because SOS has retired)

Milburn, thug?

What a bump it was too. Great stuff, loved every bit of it.

How quickly Carlton forget Lance "Pig farm" Whitnall's gutless bump on Tyson Stenglein. It was behind the play, something Milburn's wasn't.

nolsey77

28 Oct 2001, 17:16

Would you get over the SOS incident, just think how stupid you are being you are getting emotional over something that happened 7weeks ago, Milburn did a stupid thing, but thats wot happens when you cross the white line.

Carlton supporters had a right to voive their opinions, but CARLTON supporters have started an appaling trend, by jumping the fence and trying to physically attack a player then banging and swearing at the back of the Geelong Interchange is not on.

Being as highly intelligent as you seem Loz and being able to give a credible opinion, wot is you opinion on the incidents that followed the Milburn incident, does that make you proud does that make you want to take your children to the football in the future, how great if that is seen all around the world on CNN.

Darren Milburn would not get a game at carlton because he is under 25, we all know that OPTUS OVAL nursing home is over crowded, you have had to go to a bigger venue in COLONIAL STADIUM, and they have a roof so your players dont get sunburnt or wet.

Who will win a Flag First Geelong or Carlton?
GEELONG will and that will be in 3 years, how long are you going to have to wait?
when SOS #II makes his debut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loz

28 Oct 2001, 18:31

Well Nolsey at the time i saw that incident with Milburn and SOS - i was only about 25 metres away from where it happened and i feared the worst and thought SOS could have been killed or paralysed. Bearing in mind he's been Carlton's favorite son for a long time, you can't help your emotions sometimes and although that guy in the crowd went too far, fact is, he didn't really do any damage, calmed down after security told him told to, and apologised for the act on 2 occassions publicly (once on teh footy show and the other on blues radio on 927) i take your point but still milburn did act like a total ****er by clapping to the crowd after the game.
But you make some valid points.

JUBJUB

28 Oct 2001, 19:47

Originally posted by Loz
Well Nolsey at the time i saw that incident with Milburn and SOS - i was only about 25 metres away from where it happened and i feared the worst and thought SOS could have been killed or paralysed. Bearing in mind he's been Carlton's favorite son for a long time, you can't help your emotions sometimes and although that guy in the crowd went too far, fact is, he didn't really do any damage, calmed down after security told him told to, and apologised for the act on 2 occassions publicly (once on teh footy show and the other on blues radio on 927) i take your point but still milburn did act like a total ****er by clapping to the crowd after the game.
But you make some valid points.

Still can't spell 'THE' Karl :p :p :p :p :p

Loz

28 Oct 2001, 19:59

What the hell are u on about JUB JUB ?

Man you should get out more ... no social life is really doing wonders for your intelligence isn't it ?

JUBJUB

28 Oct 2001, 20:09

Originally posted by Loz
What the hell are u on about JUB JUB ?

Man you should get out more ... no social life is really doing wonders for your intelligence isn't it ?

Uh-Oh,I hit a raw nerve :D :D :D :D

Truth hurts does it ? :p

Catman

29 Oct 2001, 18:22

dogboy23

30 Oct 2001, 15:22

Originally posted by phatandphreaky

Just out of interest, what makes Ben the worst captain in the league?

BTW You're appraisal of our list was very accurate mate.

Cheers I dont know why I said that I dont even think I meant it.It just sort of popped out.I think he suffers from the fact that he does not get to settle in one possie.The game against us you would have thought he was the best player in the comp if you had never watched before.;)

ah_19

30 Oct 2001, 15:37

very good estimate of the list

your list is worst than ours, your older players are slighly better and slightly younger than our bunch and you have a few mid range players of middle age that wont get much better, we only have 2-3 of them.

the deciding factor this year was
Ken Judge- mega hack
whereas your coach is pretty good

he realised when he came aboard that you guys needed young talent, you should be glad hes focusing on it, at the moment our youngsters are far better, but not our older players, but if you draft 6-7 blokes this year and 5-6 the next you will have a great team in the future, i think in the meantime you should hope that your average list listens to its good coach and makes the finals.

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 16:11

Originally posted by Loz
Don't insult my intelligence Puh-leeezeeee

Pretty hard thing to do, considering you don't have any.

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 16:13

Originally posted by Loz

Thanks for Murphy by the way.
SHould be a good pick up for Carlton

Sure will. He'll fit in fantastically with the "soft pansy" ethos that the club has.

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 16:16

Originally posted by Loz
What the hell are u on about JUB JUB ?

Man you should get out more ... no social life is really doing wonders for your intelligence isn't it ?

Pfft, that comment is coming from someone who started a thread on the general board entitled "Sick of living, but too afraid to die".

:rolleyes:

Loz

2 Nov 2001, 17:41

Hey Olmy

At least my club wasn't pathetic enough to lose all it's fiances and end up merging with an interstate club after years of being rubbish on and off the field (Fitzroy)

Also why put 3 short threads down when it could easily have fitted into one.

YOU SIR OLMY ARE A NITWIT

Anyway are u Jub Jub's bum chum or what ?

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 18:43

Originally posted by Loz
Hey Olmy

At least my club wasn't pathetic enough to lose all it's fiances and end up merging with an interstate club after years of being rubbish on and off the field (Fitzroy)

At least my club isn't made up of people who would be better off supporting the soccer. Or should that be having a frontal labotamy?

Your ill-informed views of Fitzroy show how much of a moron you really are. I'm quite happy with the way the Brisbane Lions are treating the Fitzroy people, as well as being extremely happy with how the Fitzroy Football Club is still operating in Victoria.

Do you think I even care what you think about my club, when you are so clearly wrong in your views? Pfft. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Loz

Also why put 3 short threads down when it could easily have fitted into one.

Pfft. :rolleyes:

You've obviously got nothing better to add . . . :rolleyes: :o

Originally posted by Loz

YOU SIR OLMY ARE A NITWIT

Yawn. :o

Keep 'em coming genius. I may even start to feel threatened when you at least get to the level I was at, in pre-school. :o :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Loz

Anyway are u Jub Jub's bum chum or what ?

For someone who also said they didn't want to be harrassed because of their religious beliefs, I find it extremely hypocritical that you then make comments which infer a condescending nature towards others in a manner that suggests some form of marginalisation.

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 18:49

For someone who thinks their own club is so great, Loz, you seem to spend more time dengrating other clubs.

I'd rather support Fitzroy, the Lions, and Geelong (regardless of club histories or finances) before I'd even look sideways at a scum club like Carlton.

JUBJUB

2 Nov 2001, 19:33

Originally posted by Olmy

I'd rather support Fitzroy, the Lions, and Geelong (regardless of club histories or finances) before I'd even look sideways at a scum club like Carlton.

Well said OLMY ;)

What is LOZ's fascination with Geelong? Anyone would think he was a former supporter who jumped on the Carlton bandwagon halfway through this year :o :o

Olmy

2 Nov 2001, 20:11

Originally posted by JUBJUB

Anyone would think he was a former supporter who jumped on the Carlton bandwagon halfway through this year :o :o

He/she obviously suffered a few head injuries when it crashed as well.

Loz

2 Nov 2001, 22:39

Hmm Scum club huh Olmy ?
For many years Fitzroy was a blight and embarrassment to our competition and really should have died out/moved up to Brisbane in 1986.
You can call me all ya want but your obviously a highly-strung sensitive petal and i've hit a raw nerve anyway.
Anyway Olmy since you and jub jub have followed teams that were broke ****less and have/had no chance of ever winning a flag (In Fitzroy's case they had to merge and only 1 former player from the merger is left) i guess you are all jealous of my great club's success.

Fall Out Boy

2 Nov 2001, 22:45

C'mon Loz, reply to my post in the recruiting thread, i dare ya.

BTW Why do you keep coming to the GFC board when you tell us, oh so often, how much you despise the club?

Wouldn't be seeking attention would we???

JUBJUB

3 Nov 2001, 08:04

Originally posted by phatandphreaky

BTW Why do you keep coming to the GFC board when you tell us, oh so often, how much you despise the club?

Because he's actually a secret Geelong supporterer

Olmy

3 Nov 2001, 12:19

Originally posted by Loz
Hmm Scum club huh Olmy ?
For many years Fitzroy was a blight and embarrassment to our competition and really should have died out/moved up to Brisbane in 1986.

Informed view, that. :rolleyes:

As I said earlier, I couldn't care less what you think of Fitzroy, as your views are clearly ill-informed.

At any rate, why bother mentioning Fitzroy when the discussion was about Geelong? A bit of side-stepping there!

At any rate, Carlton are universally recognised as a scum club, so you're outnumbered on that one.

Originally posted by Loz
You can call me all ya want but your obviously a highly-strung sensitive petal and i've hit a raw nerve anyway.

That's coming from someone who has admitted to being "sick of living". We're sick of you too!

As for calling names, well, if you read back over the post, I'd say you're the one who was calling names, to which others posted their responses.

Talk about being shown up as a hypocrit. :rolleyes: :o

Originally posted by Loz
Anyway Olmy since you and jub jub have followed teams that were broke ****less and have/had no chance of ever winning a flag (In Fitzroy's case they had to merge and only 1 former player from the merger is left) i guess you are all jealous of my great club's success.

Jealous of a bunch of hoons who would be better off supporting the soccer? Pfft.

Anyway, so what if the only players with a Fitzroy link in the Lions side are Johnson, Pike, Lynch, Brown and Power. The side is hardly made up of all-Bears either. :rolleyes:

Anyway, considering that there is a huge slice of the Fitzroy identity in the Brisbane Lions, your point regarding the players, is hardly relevant at all.

You seem to hold a degree of bitterness, regarding the Lions premiership victory in 2001!

Anyway, in the day and age of players being traded with ease, I'd ask you, how many teams still have the majority of their 1996 list anyway?

Pfft, you really are lacking clues, aren't you? :rolleyes:

Anyway, if your club is as great as you claim, then why bother coming on to other people's boards and slagging their club's off? If Carlton are so great, you should be quite content to remain on your own board (all 5 discussions of it), and discuss how great you are there.

:rolleyes:

Asgardian

17 Nov 2001, 02:31

You guys disliked my first post on this topic, you're gonna really hate this one.

Anyway, having completed all club team list reviews, and having done comparisons, plus having had a "sabbatical", I'm now ready to put my spin on where I consider your team will end up next year.

Frankly I see very few positives coming up for the Cats, the only redeeming feature I see for you next year is blooding, and getting experience for the younger players on the list.

There are several quality juniors, but to expect them to carry a team against better credentialled opposition is unrealistic in the main, sure, there will be upset victories and losses for all clubs, unfortunately for the Cats though I expect the numbers to tally up fast in the losses column.

Your defence is not too bad, I believe weight of opportunity will be like a noose though, strangling the creativity from the defenders, forcing them to be more and more negative. This will have a flow on effect, you lose the run out of defence, hence your midfielders will be forced to work back more than is planned, by having to work back, you lose the forward movement generated by the midfielders, restricting scoring opportunities, and ultimately starving the forwards. It then follows that the forwards start to chase possession, being drawn further downfield, again stealing from your attack.

The above will be a scenario that will happen for many clubs in 2002, I expect to see it happen frequently for the Cats.

I predict the Cats will finish 2002 season in 16th position, winning the wooden spoon

JUBJUB

17 Nov 2001, 07:46

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

We've got as much chance of finishing 16th as Port have of winning a final.:D

It ain't gonna happen.

Fall Out Boy

17 Nov 2001, 15:30

I know we haven't got a great list but what makes you think that we will finish below West Coast?????

Neither club has picked up any huge names, we thrashed them twice in 2001, they weren't even deserving of a spot in the AFL.

Bad season, yes
Last, NO

Red Rover

17 Nov 2001, 19:30

Originally posted by Asgardian
You guys disliked my first post on this topic, you're gonna really hate this one.

I predict the Cats will finish 2002 season in 16th position, winning the wooden spoon
Well, it's a big call.

You have to look back a long way to find the last time Geelong finished bottom-four, let alone bottom.

For a side that was competitive for most of the season in 2001, beat the likes of Hawthorn, Richmond, Sydney and Collingwood, it would have to be a monumental collapse in the dented but resilient on-field department of the GFC.

This paired with the current fab-three holding up the ladder, who in 2001 were so far from being competitive with the rest of the competition is wasn't funny, the idea of a middle of the range side who are more accustomed to playing finals than finishing alongside the cellar-dwellers, to slip behind all three of these clubs in just one year is quite a stretch.

Fremantle, West Coast and St Kilda have experienced on-field and off-field turmoil in the last six months. They have all turned over coaches recently and will look to the National draft where they share the first six selections to build a side to be competitive.

Geelong have a much more steady situation. Despite a disappointing end to 2001, they recorded a profit and have almost completely wiped out the club debt and their established coaching staff is stable.

With five rounds to go, Geelong were a realist finals candidate, they had more chance of lifting the cup on Grand Final day than finishing amongst the pitiful trio. They won nine games for the season, and it it weren't for a few narrow losses, 2001 would have been a far different story.

The Cats at the moment are a middle of the range side, they finished 5th in 2000 after the home and away season and showed to be capable of doing the same in 2001, but were undone by inconsistent performances. They have a good group of young players who look like improving and pushing the club back into more familiar territory - finals. They are not in the same league as either one of the fab-three and to suggest they will fall behind everyone in 2002 because..........

Originally posted by Asgardian
Your defence is not too bad, I believe weight of opportunity will be like a noose though, strangling the creativity from the defenders, forcing them to be more and more negative. This will have a flow on effect, you lose the run out of defence, hence your midfielders will be forced to work back more than is planned, by having to work back, you lose the forward movement generated by the midfielders, restricting scoring opportunities, and ultimately starving the forwards. It then follows that the forwards start to chase possession, being drawn further downfield, again stealing from your attack.
............is hardly a view which demands serious consideration. This doesn't explain how a competitive outfit one year will next year lose to 'rubble' clubs like West Coast, when it currently gets its yearly amusement by flying over to Perth and teaching them how to play football, while picking up percentage along the way.

I appreciate your insight, Asgardian, you've made a big statement and that's fair enough. But your attempts to justify it leave a lot to be desired and I'm hardly convinced. Given your 'attempted' explanation, I get the feeling perhaps you don't realise what a big call you are making.

You support Port Adelaide, right? Where did they finish in 2000? Second last, third last, right? When was the last time Geelong finished that low? Can you remember? The Cats finished 12th in 2001 with 9 wins, how will 12.5 wins in 2000 and 9 wins in 2001 become 2 wins in 2002? Explain to me why Geelong will get worse on-field and how will they could get worse by that much.

Olmy

18 Nov 2001, 10:13

Settle down, RR. Asgard's post was fairly well thought out. As far as I can see, you say he hasn't offered anything to back-up his claim, yet neither have you offered anything of substance to disclaim it either. In fact, I'd say your response was more rhetoric than anything! :p

The argument that because one year a team was competitive, therefore it will be the next season doesn't stack up. Every team that has finished on the bottom has come from somewhere higher, at some stage.

Take for instance the Lions in 1998. They finished 8th in 1997. There are plenty of other examples as well.

Likewise, saying that the club hasn't finished bottom, or bottom-four for quite some time . . . well, where's the guarantee in that, that they won't do so in the future?

Considering Geelong has a very poor finish to the season, it's also another worry. Sides that finish off a year with very few positives, often start the next season even worse.

Then again, who's to say that Geelong won't have a good pre-season, and get things on track? They very well might.

Geelong played some very good football this season, beating those teams you mentioned earlier (and being competitive in other games, against good opposition). But then you could also look at the inverse, and say that Geelong lost to Melbourne twice, and had a horror run of home games (Kangaroos, Port, Lions, even the match against St.Kilda really). I mean, Fremantle also managed to eek out a couple of good wins against the likes of Hawthorn and Adelaide. At the end of the day, both sides fell well short of the mark.

However, I don't think that Geelong are the worst side in the competition, nor will be in the foreseable future.

In fact, I reckon St.Kilda is by far the weakest team in the competition, and I can't see that changing in the near future. I'd also rank Geelong ahead of West Coast, and also Fremantle. If Geelong play to their fullest extent, they are there with the likes of Melbourne, the Kangaroos, the Western Bulldogs, Sydney, and even Adelaide.

However, this doesn't stop them from finishing last if things go wrong on the field.

The most important thing for Geelong, is to get out to a good, competitive start to next season. If they have a couple of shockers, then IMO, it is quite possible that they could be battling it out for the wooden spoon.

Likewise, maintaining a competitive edge throughout the season will also be a prime objective for Thompson, and it's easier said than done, with a reasonably young list (or with more young players being introduced).

There's no doubting that Geelong have a reasonable amount of talent on the field. They're no Essendon or Lions, but neither are they St.Kilda, West Coast, or Fremantle. Geelong's problem in the past however, has seemingly been their

In fact, if you were to look at things from a perspective of what goes around comes around, you'd probably say that Geelong are right in the gun to finish last (even if they're not the worst side). I mean, they've been a great side over 10 years or so, but have steadily, gradually been falling away, and at this point sides often end up falling to the last rungs (take Collingwood over the last 10 years for example).

Apart from Geelong's predicament, sometimes, I think it's even a good thing, for a club to finish last, as it gives the club a very strong mandate to get rid of players who aren't pulling their weight week-in-week-out. Finishing in the mid-range on the ladder, it's a lot harder to cut players, for fear that you could end up a lot worse next season. However, when you finish last, you obviously can't go any further, so why not start a restructuring program??

In this regard, Geelong have already taken the right step, before finishing in the bottom four. Getting rid of the likes of Houlihan, Bizzell and Murphy might have some short term losses, but in the long term, if you can draft the right players, it should be a better move for Geelong, than keeping these players (who, IMO, would only stagnate, and produce every other week - not the type of players, in your combination, to take you to finals glory).

At this stage, I am predicting St.Kilda to finish last, and Geelong to finish higher than the like of WCE, Fremantle, with the possibility of finishing higher than a couple of others, depending on the results of all concerned.

However, I would definitely say that finishing last is on the cards for Geelong, if they get off to a bad start. With team that is introducing a number of young players, there is always the danger that they won't stand up to such situations (not as well as more experienced players at least). I mean, take the Kangaroos for example. Shocking start, but experience got them right back in it, before a shocking finish. Likewise, the problem of maintaining momentum is greater with a younger list.

As I said earlier, Geelong are nowhere near the worst side in the competition, from my estimations, and have a reasonable amount of talent that should be developed into a good side in the future.

However, where Geelong finishes next season, will mainly be decided on player preservation and management issues (on the coaching side of things I mean), as well as the attitude and application of the players.

Olmy

18 Nov 2001, 10:51

Looking at Geelong's draw in 2002, I've marked the matches, in which Geelong (at this stage), you would consider to be a good/reasonable chance of winning in:

Essendon (MCG)
Adelaide (FP)
Kangaroos (CS)
St.Kilda (BS)
Fremantle (BS)
Lions (G)
Hawthorn (MCG)
Port Adelaide (FP)
Western Bulldogs (BS)
Melbourne (BS)
Carlton (CS)
Sydney (SCG)
Richmond (MCG)
West Coast Eagles (BS)
Collingwood (MCG)
Essendon (CS)
Adelaide (BS)
Kangaroos (BS)
St.Kilda (CS)
Fremantle (S)
Lions (BS)
Hawthorn (CS)

On paper, that's around about 11 or 12 games that Geelong look capable of winning, on average, taken the results/performances of the season just gone by, along with a degree of prediction for next season.

At a glance, 11 or 12 wins gets you into the finals. However, if, on paper, you only look like being a likely winner (on average), in 11 or 12 games a year, then you need to be playing your best football, almost every week to get those wins.

(After all, Fitzroy were competitive in 10-12 games in 1994, yet finished second last, with 5 wins. The club still had the likes of Roos, Armstrong, Baldwin, Seecamp, Lyon, Wheildon, Wynd, Zanotti, and Sartori on the list that year, coupled with quite a large group of young players, including Boyd, Barker, Molloy, and Johnson. In fact, by comparison, there are a lot of parallels between the two sides at the time - obviously Fitzroy's financial position being far worse, and playing a greater factor).

Of course, this scenario (which is basically an "on paper" prediction), doesn't mean that you couldn't knock off any particular side, on any given day. However, that rule also works in the inverse.

Obviously, if Geelong were to come out and have a blinder at the start of next year, these calculations would have to be reviewed. Likewise, the prediction could also be turned to the inverse, with Geelong having an absolute shocker, and losing games they should win, according to "on paper" predictions.

Considering performances for all sides over this year, also with a degree of prediction for next season, along with the poor finish to the season for Geelong, I'd say at this stage, the above looks fairly accurate.

IMO, Geelong need to focus on getting out to a good start, with a fit, and enthusiastic team. A poor start, and it will be all over. Similarly, if they can't maintain momentum, with the abundance of younger players, you could see them drop off dramatically, with a lack of experienced players (by comparison), to bring the team up a gear.

Winning games at home is also going to be a big focus, not only for on-field gains, but also in terms of off-field pressures.

nolsey77

20 Nov 2001, 23:37

I am getting sick of Jonny come latelys sticking the knife in to the Geelong Football Club, woodenspoon winners in 2002 yeah that will happen. I just love people who jump on the banwagon and sharpen the knives and make stupid illinformed comments about this great football club formed in 1859.

Brian Cook (CEO) is one of the Best in Australia, not just in football im talking big business, in my opinion Mr. Cook would be one of the first people that is Australia that is headhunted for major administrative roles in the Australian Business Sector.

Please tell me that a club that had a debt of $8 million dollars, one of the largest debts of ANY Australian Sporting club has been able to survive and reduce its debt by 75% in five years.

In that time the club lost its highest ever goal kicker (no5),
Its coach Gary Ayres and Captain Leigh Colbert. All of a sudden we are going to collapse in to a joke of a team, because Bizzell and Murphy leave quite funny. A team with the Longest sporting sponsorship in the WORLD (1925- FORD) is going to finish 16th, im sure that will happen.

When certain teams gain some credibility and respect maybe there supporters can come and challenge my comments, but when you come from some franchise teams with no history (AFL) and get stuck in to other teams your points seem to be without reason, justification and credibility.

My Name is Andrew Nolan I am proud to be a Geelong Supporter, and I hope if you are a Geelong supporter you are proud of the Geelong Football Club, and are also looking to the future of the Geelong Football Club.

Straight From the Heart
Andrew Nolan (nolsey77):cool:

Olmy

21 Nov 2001, 16:29

Originally posted by nolsey77
All of a sudden we are going to collapse in to a joke of a team, because Bizzell and Murphy leave quite funny. A team with the Longest sporting sponsorship in the WORLD (1925- FORD) is going to finish 16th, im sure that will happen.

Ma'e, sponsorships or not don't necessarily relate greatly to on-field performances. If that were the case, then why did Collingwood finish last in 1999, when they had such a prominent financial backing?

Likewise, losing good players (over the short and long term) wasn't the sole reasoning behind why people consider that Geelong could be a bottom side next season.

Originally posted by nolsey77
When certain teams gain some credibility and respect maybe there supporters can come and challenge my comments, but when you come from some franchise teams with no history (AFL) and get stuck in to other teams your points seem to be without reason, justification and credibility.

Nolsey, I'm not sure if those comments were a go at me, but if they were they were fairly misguided. I've never supported a franchise team. Not ever. Never once!

I'm not a Geelong supporter, however, I'm hardly a bagger either. I thought my comments were fairly reasonable assessments of where Geelong is at, in terms of its on-field position. I'm not intending to stick the boot in, nor for people to think I am. If you don't agree, fair enough - but it's hardly a reason to get your back up, considering the comments weren't intended to be hostile (rather, a decent discussion).

In fact, I'm considering purchasing a Geelong membership next year (partly because one of my Geelong mates bought a Fitzroy membership this season, and also partly because I reckon Geelong are a great club). I sincerely hope Geelong can once again become a successful club/team in their own right. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that they won't have to go through a few tough years in the meantime.

Asgardian

22 Nov 2001, 11:16

Andrew, an impassioned tirade does not necessarily prove anything, except perhaps for your own ignorance and arrogance.

You refer to "johnny come latelies", let me suggest dear Andrew, that I have been following football before you were even a scratch in your daddy's groin.

You also mention "illinformed" comments, I assume you were meaning to say UNINFORMED comments, and if so, let me suggest to you that you also do some homework. I have completed reviews of every team list, it is not an exact science, but at least I have done the work, so that I can confidently say that I have made EVERY effort to make educated comments, and predictions that are based on study. I have not used exasperated rhetoric to denigrate fellow posters.

Off-field performance and performers is hardly to the point of my original or follow up posts. I was concentrating solely on season 2002 on field pursuits, the fact Geelong have turned things around money wise is laudable, Brian Cook certainly seems to be a credible manager, again though, what this has to do with my post topics only you Andrew can fathom.

Now, the crux of your post Andrew is and I quote :-

"When certain teams gain some credibility and respect maybe there supporters can come and challenge my comments, but when you come from some franchise teams with no history (AFL) and get stuck in to other teams your points seem to be without reason, justification and credibility."

you are telling me I am not worthy of challenging anything you have to say about football. You are saying Port Adelaide has no history, yes, you put AFL in brackets, let me remind you Andrew there is a big world outside your own little microcosm. Are you inferring that Freo and Port, and maybe even Doggie and Saint supporters disappear from this site, as we have nothing credible to say?

This is the height of ignorance and arrogance, you are dictating who can, and who cannot have a point of view.

Oh, and by the way Andrew, you know my name, have the intestinal fortitude and courtesy to use it, if you again have the desire to attack me.

Macca19

22 Nov 2001, 19:41

JubJub - you were scathing of Asgards original review of Geelongs list yet you havent even said what youve disagreed with. I wouldnt mind seeing which players you disagree with about Chris's assesment.

I dont reckon Geelong will finish last...but they wont make the eight - and Chris's Assesment was pretty good i thought. Geelong dont have a top list. Thats a fact. And saying "well thats the biggest crap ive heard" yet not rebutting anything at all - well its sooo convincing that you think its crap.

so please JubJub - what exactly is it you disagree with?? Do you think geelong have a list full of topline players??

Fall Out Boy

22 Nov 2001, 19:48

I thought the appraisal of our list was quite fair minded and accurate however there is NO basis for the presumption that we will finish last in 2002.

Cheers

Asgardian

22 Nov 2001, 21:22

I'm making a guess based on my comparisons of all clubs, sorry you don't like my guess, but at least I went to the effort of doing all that work. Plus, someone HAS to finish last, every club supporter says it wont be their club, 1/16th of the supporters are wrong.

I'll stand by my predictions, some may even be right, but none of us will know for sure till the end of next season. Getting all hot and bothered by my predictions will do you no good, getting angry at me coz I had the audacity to dare pick you guys to finish last will do you no good.

I ain't gonna change my mind just because you guys are shirty with me, debate with me, disagree with me, but insulting me is for the birds, you guys are better than that, aren't yas?

Olmy

23 Nov 2001, 11:12

The issue with Geelong's list isn't really one of talent. It's more about where the talent is distributed, in terms of the age of the players.

For instance, in Geelong's best side, from it's current players, the age groupings were as follows:

17y.o. - 23y.o. = 12 Players (King, Scarlett, Harley, Ling, Spriggs, Kingsley, Clarke, Enright, Rahilly, Mooney, Corey).
24y.o. - 27y.o. = 2 Players (Milburn, Snell).
28y.o. and upwards = 8 Players (Graham, Sanderson, Riccardi, Kilpatrick, White, Burns, Mensch, Sholl, McGrath).

IMO, there is enough talent on the list. In fact, there are quite a number of very good players across the board. However, the problem lies in the fact, that Geelong rely too heavily on the performance of youngsters, along with players in the "old" age bracket. Clearly, there is a deficiency in players in the mid-age category (ie: those types of guys, who have played around 100 games or more, are in good career form, and are reasonably adapted physically to the needs of the game).

Of course, I'm not saying that players who are in the "young" or "old" brackets aren't of significant value, or capable of playing good week-in-week-out. However, ideally, you'd still want a team to have more players in the mid-range age category, with that bracket also producing your best players.

Take for instance the Lions (not just because they're my team, but also because they won the premiership and make a good place to start from as a comparison):

17y.o. - 23y.o. = 7 Players (Black, Brown, Notting, Power, Bradshaw, McDonald, Copeland).
24y.o. - 27y.o. = 9 Players (Voss, Lappin, Akermanis, Johnson, Leppitsch, C.Scott, B.Scott, Michael, Keating).
28y.o. and upwards = 6 Players (Lynch, Pike, White, Hart, McRae, Ashcroft).

Generally, there is a more even spread across the age brackets, and likewise, most of our best players are in the mid-range age category.

Why is it important to have more players in the mid-range age group?? IMO, ideally, players in this age-bracket are generally at the peak of their careers, have more experience than the younger players, have less injury/fitness concerns than older players, and on average perform better on a week-to-week basis.

So . . . looking at Geelong's list in an "age" concern, you'd have to say, that in 3 or so year's time, they look like shaping up as a very good team (with a lot of those younger stars, looking likely to become champions once they reach the mid-age category).

The main problem in the meantime is trying to maintain a season's-worth of momentum, with the problems that are inherent with a list that is majorly split between young and old players, with very few in between.

Perhaps depth is also an issue, however, some smart picks in the draft could go a long way to improving this area.