Flag next year

[ok.crows]

Next season is Ports sixth season in the AFL competition. Port had a fine season this year, and probably in the end were justifiably a little disappointed in how they finished. Port played well enough during the season to carry some level of modest expectation into this years finals series, but it was not to be, and ultimate success eluded them.

I think it was fair to say that Port this year set themselves up to at least give themselves an outside chance at a flag.

Anyway, my question is what is the attitude of Port fans regarding Port getting a flag next season. Obviously, as for all fans, getting a flag is the prime and almost the only objective of a football season, but what I mean to ask is this: - does the fact that cross-town rivals Crows got their first flag in their seventh season lend a particular urgency to Port getting the flag next season (their sixth year), or not? Is there perhaps no more urgency next year over any other?

Your views?

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ok.crows

- does the fact that cross-town rivals Crows got their first flag in their seventh season lend a particular urgency to Port getting the flag next season (their sixth year), or not? Is there perhaps no more urgency next year over any other?

Your views?

nope and i have no clue why it should matter. Good on the crows for winning their flags - if we dont win one in the next two seasons then im not gonna be heart broken cos it means the crows are "better than us"

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Macca19


nope and i have no clue why it should matter. Good on the crows for winning their flags - if we dont win one in the next two seasons then im not gonna be heart broken cos it means the crows are "better than us"

Fair enough, Macca, but what I was getting at is - wouldn't it be nice, so as to be able to "stick it up" Crows fans, to be able to say - it took Port only six years to get their first flag.

I'm sure a lot of Port fans would like very much to be able to do that. I'm not talking about comparisons between clubs here (although such comparisons are inevitably drawn), but simply to be able to give it back as good as you get.

Does this lend a particular extra incentive to Port to strive for a flag next year over and above the motivation that exists any other year? Or not?

I'm genuinely curious as to what you Port fans think on this, would be interested to hear what a selection of you think.

[Porthos]

The simple fact is.....Port supporters don't have to work at sticking it up crows supporters. Here's an analogy...

Port is the Road Runner. Damn fast, knows what it can do, and does it.

Crows are Wile. E Coyote. They always have some incredible plan for destroying Port....planning to beat us in a semi-final at footy park, rub it in our face, etc.....What generally happens is they blow themselves up. Loss to Fremantle....whoops, and thank you ACME.

And then Road Runner sees this, shouts BEEP BEEP and runs off.

Is the Road Runner sticking it up the coyote, or is the coyote the cause of his own troubles?

Now, the flag next year....I'd like for us to win it because its there to be won. Our squad is ready to go...peaking ages & form and all that, -and- we've added Damien Hardwick. If we don't at least win a prelim this year, we've probably underachieved. Winning it a year before the Crows did the equivalent would be nice, but really...its just a BEEP BEEP in the face of the side that'll probably miss the eight this year again.

[Tredders#16]

Originally posted by Porthos

Port is the Road Runner. Damn fast, knows what it can do, and does it.

Crows are Wile. E Coyote. They always have some incredible plan for destroying Port....planning to beat us in a semi-final at footy park, rub it in our face, etc.....What generally happens is they blow themselves up. Loss to Fremantle....whoops, and thank you ACME.

And then Road Runner sees this, shouts BEEP BEEP and runs off.

Is the Road Runner sticking it up the coyote, or is the coyote the cause of his own troubles?

Mate, that's classic! LOL:D
Tredders#16

[ok.crows]

Got to say people, the general reaction to this question seems to be one of hedging your bets.

Why not say to me - sure Port will win the flag in just six seasons and won't those Crows braggers have egg all over their faces then.

After all, to do better than the Crows did in the AFL was one of Ports stated intentions when they entered the AFL competition, was it not?

Now you are up against the wall to do that, and you are trying to pretend "hey, we are cool, we are the road runner. BEEP BEEP".

Sure, sure, whatever you say, guys. Pull the other leg.

Sounds a hell of a lot like making excuses before the event, though, to me.

Just an outside view, of course.

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ok.crows
Got to say people, the general reaction to this question seems to be one of hedging your bets.

Why not say to me - sure Port will win the flag in just six seasons and won't those Crows braggers have egg all over their faces then.

After all, to do better than the Crows did in the AFL was one of Ports stated intentions when they entered the AFL competition, was it not?

Now you are up against the wall to do that, and you are trying to pretend "hey, we are cool, we are the road runner. BEEP BEEP".

Sure, sure, whatever you say, guys. Pull the other leg.

Sounds a hell of a lot like making excuses before the event, though, to me.

Just an outside view, of course.

piss off crows.ok.....why the hell should we worry about matching the crows achievements??? Big deal if we dont. I dont really care if we dont win back to back flags in our first 8 seasons....and we shouldnt worry about that either.

We are back against the wall??? How so?? We would be one of the flag favourites for next year....how many people do you think picked the crows at the beginning of 1997??? Probably about 3 people put money on them winning the flag at the start of the year.

Would be nice to win next year....woulda been nice to win this year as well - but im not going to lose sleep if we dont, and im not gonna bloody about what the crows achieved either. Why should we have to explain to you or any crows fan if we dont win a flag next year, why we didnt??

Sounds to me you just want every port supporter to blow the crows trumpet

[The Doctor]

Originally posted by Porthos
The simple fact is.....Port supporters don't have to work at sticking it up crows supporters. Here's an analogy...

Port is the Road Runner. Damn fast, knows what it can do, and does it.

Crows are Wile. E Coyote. They always have some incredible plan for destroying Port....planning to beat us in a semi-final at footy park, rub it in our face, etc.....What generally happens is they blow themselves up. Loss to Fremantle....whoops, and thank you ACME.

And then Road Runner sees this, shouts BEEP BEEP and runs off.

Is the Road Runner sticking it up the coyote, or is the coyote the cause of his own troubles?

Now, the flag next year....I'd like for us to win it because its there to be won. Our squad is ready to go...peaking ages & form and all that, -and- we've added Damien Hardwick. If we don't at least win a prelim this year, we've probably underachieved. Winning it a year before the Crows did the equivalent would be nice, but really...its just a BEEP BEEP in the face of the side that'll probably miss the eight this year again.

I would like to nominate this for Big Footy post of the year. :)

[Porthos]

Originally posted by ok.crows

After all, to do better than the Crows did in the AFL was one of Ports stated intentions when they entered the AFL competition, was it not?


Yeah, and if you want to go year by year, then we'll do fine...I think 5th & 6th years were the Robert Shaw era...so far we've had a 5th to match his first year...next year, I don't reckon we could go worse.


Now you are up against the wall to do that, and you are trying to pretend "hey, we are cool, we are the road runner. BEEP BEEP".

Sure, sure, whatever you say, guys. Pull the other leg.

Sounds a hell of a lot like making excuses before the event, though, to me.


If we were all saying that we were going to be the premiers next year, it'd be "****ing cocky Port supporters, always talking themselves up. ********s." Far better to just say BEEP BEEP.

We might be premiers next year, we might not. We will have at least one premiership in the next 5 years though. Does that answer your question?

PS. I'm glad people like my analogy :)

[ok.crows]

Hey, guys, I think Port have a fair shot at getting there. You gave it a good shake this year, no reason at all to suppose you won't give it another fair shake next year.

But you all seem still to be avoiding the fact that this is what Port set out to achieve when they entered the AFL.

It was what Port themselves said they would measure themselves by.

Yet here you all are, "piss off" to lil ol me for bringing it up, and complete denial along the lines of 'but im not going to lose sleep if we dont, and im not gonna bloody about what the crows achieved either' - when after all this is exactly what your club leaders said they were worried about when Port entered the AFL.

Hey, don't spit chips at me, I'm not the one who set this as a goal for your club.

[Porthos]

Mate, you're the only one spitting chips here. I think we've given a decent answer to your questions.

[The Doctor]

I hope you don't mind me entering the fray here but I think it is unreasonable to make this sort of comparison. If the Power don't win ahead of the Crows or even equal it shouldn't reflect poorly on them. After all the Crows were given some gracious moratoriums in their infancy which Port didn't get to the same level. This certainly helped the Crows in their establishment years. Additionally the drafting process was not quite as sophisticated as it is now. It was easier for the Crows to hold onto the local talent back then. So I think the Port have done extremely well in that case. Have a look at it in 5-10 years and then make the comparison.

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Porthos
Mate, you're the only one spitting chips here. I think we've given a decent answer to your questions.

You of course would think that. Pity your analogy is fatally flawed. The AFC has already got the prize - two flags in its seventh & eigth years. That makes Adelaide a very very poor likeness of the Coyote, who never won or achieved anything.

And Port are WAAAAYYYYY to slow to be a road runner.

[Porthos]

Originally posted by ok.crows


You of course would think that. Pity your analogy is fatally flawed. The AFC has already got the prize - two flags in its seventh & eigth years. That makes Adelaide a very very poor likeness of the Coyote, who never won or achieved anything.

And Port are WAAAAYYYYY to slow to be a road runner.

BEEP BEEP

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ok.crows
Hey, guys, I think Port have a fair shot at getting there. You gave it a good shake this year, no reason at all to suppose you won't give it another fair shake next year.

But you all seem still to be avoiding the fact that this is what Port set out to achieve when they entered the AFL.

It was what Port themselves said they would measure themselves by.

Yet here you all are, "piss off" to lil ol me for bringing it up, and complete denial along the lines of 'but im not going to lose sleep if we dont, and im not gonna bloody about what the crows achieved either' - when after all this is exactly what your club leaders said they were worried about when Port entered the AFL.

Hey, don't spit chips at me, I'm not the one who set this as a goal for your club.

no, you didnt get the answers you expected, so now you turn to bag us by saying things like "Sure, sure, whatever you say, guys. Pull the other leg.
Sounds a hell of a lot like making excuses before the event, though, to me. "

We arent avoiding anything. The club never said it wanted to match the crows efforts - seeing as in the crows first 6 yearse (before we came in) the crows achievements were minimal and extremly poor. What they said was we want to win a flag before the crows do - obviously that never happened.

Why should we agree with everything the club says anyway?? i know i certainly dont agree with everything the club does or says - and i certainly dont agree that we should be comparing our achievements continually with the crows.

Im not sure of your motives here...there are only two possible answers to your question:
a) we dont care what the crows did and we dont want to be compared to them
b) i hope we win next year to stick it up those arrogant turds from west lakes

so far noone has said (a), so you try to persuade us that we should really be saying b?

So what if the club leaders said or stated (even tho they never said what you claim they did)....good for them.....every member has their own opinion. just cos Primus, Wanganeen, Cahill or Boulton says something doesnt mean we generally always agree with it.

So what are your motives here??? You obviously wanted us to blow the crows trumpet...yet we havent, and you didnt get the answers you were looking for. I dont get what your point is at all? Are you saying we should be extremly dissapointed if we dont win a flag before the crows did?? Are you saying we should always agree with the club?? I dont get it

[ok.crows]

Just by the by, and mulling over this topic, wasn't the original aim stated by Port on entering the AFL to "get a flag before Crows"?

Then Crows spoiled that straight away by getting a flag the very same year that Port entered. No chance, baby.

So it was only spin doctoring in the first place that watered down the original aim to become "get a flag before the Crows in relative terms (ie six years or less)".

Now the spin doctoring is apparently starting all over again.

We don't care about what Crows did, we are the road runners. BEEP BEEP.

I think I'll note this one down. Should be good for the odd friendly jibe every now and then.

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Macca19


no, you didnt get the answers you expected, so now you turn to bag us by saying things like "Sure, sure, whatever you say, guys. Pull the other leg.
Sounds a hell of a lot like making excuses before the event, though, to me. "

We arent avoiding anything. The club never said it wanted to match the crows efforts - seeing as in the crows first 6 yearse (before we came in) the crows achievements were minimal and extremly poor. What they said was we want to win a flag before the crows do - obviously that never happened.

Why should we agree with everything the club says anyway?? i know i certainly dont agree with everything the club does or says - and i certainly dont agree that we should be comparing our achievements continually with the crows.

Im not sure of your motives here...there are only two possible answers to your question:
a) we dont care what the crows did and we dont want to be compared to them
b) i hope we win next year to stick it up those arrogant turds from west lakes

so far noone has said (a), so you try to persuade us that we should really be saying b?

So what if the club leaders said or stated (even tho they never said what you claim they did)....good for them.....every member has their own opinion. just cos Primus, Wanganeen, Cahill or Boulton says something doesnt mean we generally always agree with it.

So what are your motives here??? You obviously wanted us to blow the crows trumpet...yet we havent, and you didnt get the answers you were looking for. I dont get what your point is at all? Are you saying we should be extremly dissapointed if we dont win a flag before the crows did?? Are you saying we should always agree with the club?? I dont get it

Not at all, Macca, and I don't have any particular motive, other than being interested in the apparent changing attitudes of your clubs fans.

When they entered the AFL, I recall some were trying to say that Port would not win a game in their first season. That was patently ridiculous. Even though that claim was coming mostly from Melbourne, your clubs response (from admin and from fans) seemed to be - Port will do better than Crows did, mark our words, wait and see.

Now that the heat is on to make good those marked words, I find it interesting to observe the spin doctoring you guys will come up with.

No motive other than that.

[Porthos]

geez, you sure are baitable Macca...

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ok.crows


Not at all, Macca, and I don't have any particular motive, other than being interested in the apparent changing attitudes of your clubs fans.

When they entered the AFL, I recall some were trying to say that Port would not win a game in their first season. That was patently ridiculous. Even though that claim was coming mostly from Melbourne, your clubs response (from admin and from fans) seemed to be - Port will do better than Crows did, mark our words, wait and see.

Now that the heat is on to make good those marked words, I find it interesting to observe the spin doctoring you guys will come up with.

No motive other than that.

just for the record we have done better than the crows did - we made the finals for the second time 2 years before the crows did. Won more games in a season, more away games in a season etc etc i could go on but i find no point in comparisons to two teams (port and crows) that are 7-8 years apart...if anything we should compare our current day teams.

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Macca19


just for the record we have done better than the crows did - we made the finals for the second time 2 years before the crows did. Won more games in a season, more away games in a season etc etc i could go on but i find no point in comparisons to two teams (port and crows) that are 7-8 years apart...if anything we should compare our current day teams.

Just for the record you haven't done better ... according to the original criteria you set for yourselves.

PS: you haven't won more games in a season. I'm not sure about away games in a season, but I doubt the veracity of that one, too. You have won more minor round games, however.

PPS: Purely amatuer psychology, I know, but the fact that you guys all seem to be backing away from "get a flag before Crows" tells me something. It indicates to me that in your heart of hearts you realise that the balance of probability is that Port won't get the flag next year.

Maybe you should all have more confidence in your team, hey?

[Macca19]

Originally posted by ok.crows


PPS: Purely amatuer psychology, I know, but the fact that you guys all seem to be backing away from "get a flag before Crows" tells me something. It indicates to me that in your heart of hearts you realise that the balance of probability is that Port won't get the flag next year.

Maybe you should all have more confidence in your team, hey?

I believe we are a genuine premiership chance this season...but then so are about 5-6 other teams that are just as big and bigger chances than us. And whats this backing away crap....you dont know me, how do you know what i said or felt 3-4-5 years ago??? Ive never thought winning a flag before the crows is an issue....its only an issue to the minority of our supporters.

[Port01]

I'll be damn happy if we win it, but of course the balance of probability is against it.

When Port entered the competition it was a big thing to beat the crows in the first showdown etc, but after a while you realise that besides 2 good finals campaigns they have been an average side for a long time.

Port fans should not be concerned about beating the 7 year crows record, they should be concerned about winning flags and being a flag contender every year.

Crows fans should worry about the same thing.

Or are you more concerned with Port winning in its 6th year than you are about the crows winning their 3rd before we get started?

Where is your faith?

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Port01
I'll be damn happy if we win it, but of course the balance of probability is against it.

When Port entered the competition it was a big thing to beat the crows in the first showdown etc, but after a while you realise that besides 2 good finals campaigns they have been an average side for a long time.

Port fans should not be concerned about beating the 7 year crows record, they should be concerned about winning flags and being a flag contender every year.

Crows fans should worry about the same thing.

Or are you more concerned with Port winning in its 6th year than you are about the crows winning their 3rd before we get started?

Where is your faith?

Funnily enough, I'm on the same page as Macca here, where he says "I believe Port are a genuine premiership chance this season...but then so are about 5-6 other teams that are just as big and bigger chances".

I think that was spot on. I think Port have got to be favoured to do fairly well next season, and finish probably a few games ahead of Crows.

As for Crows, I'm hoping that they can go one or two wins better next year than this. I think Crows forward line, if they can keep Stevens at CHF and Fitzgerald at FF, is looking a significant improvement (on paper) over this years forward line, which struggled somewhat (yet still we made the eight).

If Crows can get to 14 wins next year, as I hope they can, they too will be a flag contender. I have them down as potentially being in that group of six teams contending for the flag. I'm not at all worried about it, this is where I think Crows will be at unless they have a shocker run with injury.

But then again, I have got Brisbane down as provisional favourites. They may well be able to repeat.

So I think the balance of probability is that neither team from SA will win a flag next year. I think the balance of probability is also that both teams from SA will be contending in the finals next year, however, and that does give both of them some chance. I won't be putting my house on it, though.

As far as averages go , over the longer term - Crows average finish on the ladder is 8th. This is the eigth best average finishing position taken over the period from 1990 - the AFL years.

Ports average finishing position is 9th. This is the tenth best average finishing position. If Crows have been average (and that is probably fair enough), then Port have been even more average.

Sorry guys, thems the facts.

[Porthos]

The fact is that from the crows entry until 1995, there were only 15 teams. Your averages will thus be a bit skewed.

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Porthos
The fact is that from the crows entry until 1995, there were only 15 teams. Your averages will thus be a bit skewed.

Average ladder position = sum over the years of ladder placings divided by number of years.

If you come fifth, there are four teams who did better, and who will have a lower contribution to their "average ladder position" than you do, for that year.

This is so if there are a total of ten teams, or sixteen, either way it still manages to rank the top teams relative to each other.

Because it is an average, it works well if you have played for only five years, or for ten.

No skewing involved here at all, Porthos, I'm afraid. It is a valid enough measure.

[Port01]

I never said Port havent been average.

Apart from 2 years (2000-01) we were decidedly average, in those 2 years, we were crap for one, and good for the other, so it turns out average.

I got over crows comparisons years ago, these days I judge each team on its merits.

As for Porthos, Id say he was speaking tongue in cheek, but...the averages are a little skewed with only 15 teams.
8 out of 15 isnt as good as 8 out of 16.
Extrapolating that.....you are saying finishing 5th in a 10 team comp is relative to finishing 5th in a 100 team comp, because only 4 teams finished above.
Which it obviously isn't.
If there was an extra team in the comp in the Shaw years, would you have finished 1 rank higher? or 1 rank lower?

Pointless observation, but so is average ladder finish. there are plenty of stats that could point for Port having been better since we came in, but I'm not Dan, and I dont give a crap about stats.

[ok.crows]

As for Porthos, Id say he was speaking tongue in cheek, but...the averages are a little skewed with only 15 teams.
8 out of 15 isnt as good as 8 out of 16.

True enough. Very llittle difference mind you, but true enough.

Extrapolating that.....you are saying finishing 5th in a 10 team comp is relative to finishing 5th in a 100 team comp, because only 4 teams finished above. Which it obviously isn't.

No, you misread my point. I am saying that finishing 5th in a 16 team comp is not as good as finishing 4th. At the same time, finishing 5th in a 15 team comp is not as good as finishing 4th. So it becomes valid to compare the team which averages 4th placing to the team which averages 5th, as a relative measure to each other. Clearly the team averaging 4th is a little better, and you can reach that conclusion even if over the period sometimes there were 15 competitors, other times 16. It simply doesn't matter in deciding that the 4th average placing is a little better than the fifth.

there are plenty of stats that could point for Port having been better since we came in

Here again we diverge in opinion. There are not "plenty" of such stats, though agreed, there are a few. Port have the best of the head-to-head contests, for example, they have a very marginal advantage in overall win/loss ratio, and two finals appearances in five years is ever so slightly better than four in 11 years.

Those are the ones I am aware of, where a comparison is more or less possible, where Port are ahead. There are about as many where Crows are ahead. Pretty similar record, really, all things considered.

This is why I am amused when Port fans have a dig in the general direction of Crows record in the AFL. Truly, Ports record is certainly no better, and only just arguably is it as good, you have to scratch around in the statistics, it sure as heck is not a pretty sight if you search for AFL glory in Ports trophy cabinet.

I got over crows comparisons years ago, these days I judge each team on its merits.

As noble as this sounds, there is no shortage of Port fans who do make crows comparisons, and mostly they delude themselves into a conclusion that the record shows Port are the better side.

I am just that little annoying nagging voice, that you know is right, telling you it is not so. Around about the same record in terms of performances, the nod perhaps just going to Crows in the "glory" department. Two flags, you know, and all that ...

[Grave Danger]

F u c k off Ozman!

[powerboi]

(road runner spins round in circles following this pointless thread)

I'm just thrilled that SA has 2 footy teams. Port first, Crows second, any other non-Vic team third. Full kudos to the Crows for hitting that magical sweet spot with the exact right players at the exact right times and securing back-to-back despite unexceptional H&A seasons (13-9 from memory). Port have shown this year (16-6) they have what it takes. Yes it'd be awesome to do it in 6 years, but I'd be just as happy if they did it in 9. Football is not unlike the stockmarket - infinite factors are involved and short term trends are meaningless when comparing stock/team quality.

PS - remember, a successful club only needs 2 premierships in 32 years. The Crows are successful, now shut up and let us have our shot.

:D

[Porthos]

Actually, thats not a successful club, thats an average club.

[Asgardian]

Originally posted by Grave Danger
**** off Ozman!

Oh no, he's here too?

[Grave Danger]

Originally posted by Asgardian


Oh no, he's here too?

Don't panic, I'm not the Anti-Nugent :cool:

[Tredders#16]

Originally posted by Porthos
Actually, thats not a successful club, thats an average club.

Don't open that can of worms again Porthos!
Tredders#16

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Tredders#16


Don't open that can of worms again Porthos!
Tredders#16

What can of worms?

Are you guys a touch sensitive, or what?

I have agreed with your assessmnets of your team, said that you will give the flag a good shake next year, listed for you some areas where your teams record is better than Crows, and all I point out is that there are other areas that are not better, and you seem to go all sqidgy and sensitive on me.

I am assuming the **** preceding off means there is at least one annoyed person out there although I don't understand exactly who and what he is annoyed at. Perhaps this was posted on the wrong thread?

Listen, guys, be real. I know you like to harp on about how average the Crows are, but realism dictates that your team is entirely comparable over time in mediocrity.

Right at the moment I'd say you are a little ahead of Crows.

[Porthos]

Mate, how many times do we have to tell you? We don't really care about being compared with the crows. Drop it....you're getting tedious and annoying.

[ok.crows]

Originally posted by Porthos
Mate, how many times do we have to tell you? We don't really care about being compared with the crows. Drop it....you're getting tedious and annoying.

Apologies.

Here was I thinking it was at least something to post about, and it seemed to have some interest to at least some of you in the off season. I was trying to make it about Port having a fair shake next season but these things always go off track.

No worries though, topic dropped. Bye.

[Kane McGoodwin]

Getting back to what this topic was about, I think you need to consider the chances of the other teams, competing for top honours.

Personally I think 2002 is quite open, but those teams I consider a (marginally) better chance than Port are:

Brisbane - most talented team, but there is a reasonable chance they will have a premiership hangover.

Hawthorn - I really think this team is on the rise & even with their trade dramas, believe they can improve further. They need another quality midfielder, but have the draft picks available. They are my provisonal flag favourites.

Essendon - with smokin Joe staying at Windy Hill, they still have a very talented team. However they do still lack a quality ruckman, which is something the Power can exploit!

I have Port ranked around 4th, but key injuries to any of the teams above, particularly come finals time, could make anything possible!

As a Crows supporter I am trying to give an unbiased view & I reckon we won't be to far behind in the later half of the final eight.