The Saints are marching, but in which direction?

[Asgardian]

Sainter asked if I was going to do a player review of the Saints, seeing as one of your own was already doing so, I hesitated, but in the end, figured an outsiders point of view might help some discussion.
Anyway, I have no links with your club, so I can be as blunt as I like.
If you want to take issue with me over my comments, great, but please be specific, don't just do a cop out like saying "you're full of crap, piss off", it doesn't take any acumen or effort to do that sort of reply.
I try my best to be fair and unbiased, lets have a look

Steven Baker :- Hard little guy, likes it in and under
Caydn Beetham :- Likely midfielder, needs responsibility
James Begley :- Seems to need a role, good future
Heath Black :- Good distributor, let the kids work together
Jason Blake :- Not big enough for a key defender
Nathan Burke :- Still good enough to give leadership
Craig Callaghan :- 2001 surprised, he showed some smarts
Matthew Capuano :- Hack, big, but still a hack
Jason Cripps :- Play or lose spot in squad, has talent
Chad Davis :- Needs to do more, has courage
Peter Everitt :- The enigma, which Everitt will turn up to play?
Fraser Gehrig :- Talented but doesn't check close enough
Aaron Hamill :- Great endeavour, needs talls to help him out
Robert Harvey :- Worry is the Saints will rush him back
Lenny Hayes :- Went backwards in 2001, needs big 2002
Max Hudgton :- Great spirit, sometimes looks overwhelmed
Austinn Jones :- Saved his bacon in 2001
Trent Knobel :- Should lead 1st ruck to free up Everitt
Brett Knowles :- Spare part player, looks lost occasionally
Justin Koschitzke :- Great talent, a long term player
Steven Lawrence :- Goer, needs a full season injury free
Stewart Loewe :- 34 in 2002, petrol tickets almost gone
Stephen Milne :- On his day creates havok
Brett Moyle :- Good at finding the ball, talent to work with
Chris Oliver :- Has talent, worthwhile persevering with
Justin Peckett :- Hack in 2002
Justin Plapp :- Dud
Nick Riewoldt :- Let him have the full year at CHF
Troy Schwarze :- Needs to make mark in 2002
Andrew Thompson :- Good heart and courage, not great skills
Brett Voss :- Makes disposal mistakes under pressure
Daniel Wulf :- Dud

Some good young talent coming through, but the superstars are on the wrong side of 30, they will be around long enough to teach the kids though.
Will win more games than they did in 2001, but not enough to make the 8

[Vaul Darkhour]

If you want to take issue with me over my comments, great, but please be specific, don't just do a cop out like saying "you're full of crap, piss off", it doesn't take any acumen or effort to do that sort of reply.

Please Asgardian.. give us St Kilda supporters some credit ;)

I've read and I'm not going to comment much but

Wulf - Dud?.. Hmmm can't agree with you on that one but could go either way in the future..

[Savatage]

Originally posted by Asgardian
Sainter asked if I was going to do a player review of the Saints, seeing as one of your own was already doing so, I hesitated, but in the end, figured an outsiders point of view might help some discussion.
Anyway, I have no links with your club, so I can be as blunt as I like.
If you want to take issue with me over my comments, great, but please be specific, don't just do a cop out like saying "you're full of crap, piss off", it doesn't take any acumen or effort to do that sort of reply.
I try my best to be fair and unbiased, lets have a look

Jason Blake :- Not big enough for a key defender

More a utility, a tall midfielder.

Jason Cripps :- Play or lose spot in squad, has talent

Pending injury is a GUN.

Fraser Gehrig :- Talented but doesn't check close enough

Nobody kicked goals against him this year.

Lenny Hayes :- Went backwards in 2001, needs big 2002

Went FORWARDS in 2001- until injury struck. Was improving weekly.

Trent Knobel :- Should lead 1st ruck to free up Everitt

Drafted as backup- Everitt is & should be 1st ruck.

Brett Knowles :- Spare part player, looks lost occasionally

He's not a Saints player anymore.

Brett Moyle :- Good at finding the ball, talent to work with

Absolute gun.

Justin Peckett :- Hack in 2002

Depends which side of the bed he wakes up on.

Justin Plapp :- Dud

He's a depth player- better than most people give credit for- but is primarily a depth player.

Nick Riewoldt :- Let him have the full year at CHF

Will play down back a fair bit.

Brett Voss :- Makes disposal mistakes under pressure

Very clean most of the time under pressure.

Daniel Wulf :- Dud

Dud????? I'm sorry Sir you must be looking at a different Daniel Wulf to the rest of us. This year will obviously be important in Daniel's development- but with that much talent I can't let you call him a dud.

Some good young talent coming through, but the superstars are on the wrong side of 30, they will be around long enough to teach the kids though.
Will win more games than they did in 2001, but not enough to make the 8

Apart from those above- you were basically spot on!

[Winmar]

Hey it's Al Pitrelli! Metaaaaaaaaaalllllll!!

On Gehrig, I thought once he got fit he was an absolute gun. His judgement is sublime.

[Savatage]

Winmar- Al Pitrelli is good- especially back in the Alice Cooper days- but the only Savatage guitarist is the late, great Chris Oliva!

Chris Caffery is awesome these days though!

[StrengthThroughLoyalty]

"your full of crap, piss off chris" oops didn't see the first part of your post, my apologies. ;)

for a side that has only won 6 games in 2 seasons i thought you might have been a bit more savage on some of the players on our list. if i was doing an assesment of the port list i might have described one player as being a dirty little sniper who should be belted whenever he goes near the ball, but that would just show me up as being an ignorant biased victorian, which of course i am, and proud of it. :D

on the whole i think you've made a pretty fair assesment of most players but there are a few whose assesment i disagree with, fraser gehrig being the most obvious case. savatage has covered the arguments pretty well but i'll give my 2 bobs worth.

fraser barely had a goal kicked on him all year, and when you are playing full back in the worst defense in the compeition that is quite a remarkable effort.

blake finished off the year with some pretty good form when he was not used as a key defender. he showed that he could read the play well and has a good set of hands.

lenny hayes has been a bit of an enigma so far in his career. he has had some blistering quarters but hasn't been able to perform over the whole game. he is still young though and will be inconsistent, what i look for in a young player is an ability to find the footy and how well they use it, consistency will come later. hayes can get the footy and has good disposal even if he is a touch slow. last year he was starting to gain the consistency required as a midfield player before he was injured. he has now played around 50 games and imho he will be an important cog in our future midfield rotation with black, moyle, beetham, baker, lawrance and maybe judd and hodge.

interesting comment about knobel leading the first ruck, i can't even remember him playing for brisbane. i would be happy if he can establish himself as a 2nd ruckman to relieve everitt for the occaision foray into the forward line. your assessment of capuano is probably correct so i hope knobel is a find for us.

i agree with chad davis having to do more, disagree about the other.

you state that nick reiwoldt should be left at chf for the whole year, i strongly disagree. nick has not got the same body type as brisbanes jonathon brown and in his few games this year was easily knocked off the ball and pushed under the marking contests. he is not ready for chf next year and should be played on a forward or back flank. he has a good leap, is courageous and is a beatiful kick but he would get crunched if he was at chf against some of the big defenders. as his body develops and he gets a few more games under his belt i hope that he can step up into the chf position and complete what could be a great combination of chf and chb with justin koschitzke. if both these blokes can develop into players that can dominate these two positions (which is a good possibility) then we can start to build a side around them. we have a good list of young players at the moment which will only be strengthened by the #2, #5, #13 and #21 draft picks. as all these players develop together we can look forward to some success in 2003 and beyond.

[Winmar]

I met Al Pitrelli when he did the instore with Dave Mustaine earlier in the year. Top blokes, both of them. Savatage is a band that I've heard a bit, but don't really know. What's a good album to start with, if I can get my hands on it?

[Vaul Darkhour]

lol... maybe we should form the St Kilda Metallers or something.. Who's up for Judas Priest 3rd December at the Palace? ;)

[Winmar]

Haha yeah that's a good idea. :) I'd be at Priest, but I'm going to Indonesia tomorrow.....

Did you go see Alice in April, Savatage? I'd been waiting sooooo long to see him. Made my year, that did!

[Savatage]

I was at the instore too - got most of my Savatage stuff signed- ****ing love that band!

Got a few Megadeth things signed- i'm not all that huge on Deth.

Vaul- I will be at Priest- we should meet up or something man.

[Savatage]

Winmar: ALice is one of my ALL TIME favourites & that was one awesome concert- his backing band was unbelievable- and as a drummer I was unbelievably impressed by Jimmy Degrasso- he was a MONSTER on the tubs!

[Savatage]

Vaul - I JUST cut off all of my hair- my hair was halfway down my back for at least 7 years- cut it off Saturday! But a metalhead in heart forever.

[sainter]

Originally posted by Asgardian

Jason Blake :- Not big enough for a key defender

He's always been played as a key defender but he's game against Scott Camporeale showed that he can become a potential midfielder. Is about 6"2 and has close to the best endurance of anyone on the list.

Matthew Capuano :- Hack, big, but still a hack

I agree that he's 2001 season was terrible. I might be going on a limb here but watching his game in round 22, I think Matty might surprise a lot of people if he can reproduce that sort of form on a regular basis

Jason Cripps :- Play or lose spot in squad, has talent

Great story. Surprised most of us with how quickly he adapted back to league footy. If he has an injury free year watch out, no one will get in his way.

Fraser Gehrig :- Talented but doesn't check close enough

In my opinion probably the only major error you made. He was virtually unbeatable at full back. I'm looking forward to him continuing to restrict the opposition but beginning to attack a little more and providing some run out of the backline with his athleticism

Lenny Hayes :- Went backwards in 2001, needs big 2002

I reckon STL summed Lenny up well. I rate him very highly. A few times earlier in the season I did say that I was disappointed that he hadn't developed as fast as a Shane O'Bree who had played his 50th game around a similar time. However the one thing Lenny has is pure skill. He has a big future.

Austinn Jones :- Saved his bacon in 2001

About time! :D

Trent Knobel :- Should lead 1st ruck to free up Everitt

Nope, definitely hasn't done anything near enough to earn 1st shot in the ruck. Has only played 13 games. He's only played footy for 5 years and will take some time to develop.

Stewart Loewe :- 34 in 2002, petrol tickets almost gone

A fit Stewie Loewe, let's just park him at full forward and watch him go. :)

Stephen Milne :- On his day creates havok

Champ ;)

Brett Moyle :- Good at finding the ball, talent to work with

The most underrated of all our youngsters. He's a ball magnet and has a huge future.

Chris Oliver :- Has talent, worthwhile persevering with

A young kid that I'm looking forward to watch develop

Justin Peckett :- Hack in 2002

Like Aussie he saved himself with a strong second half of the season. I think our depth is improving and he might be struggling for a game.

Justin Plapp :- Dud

You sound like a saints supporter talking about him. I reckon he does well with what he has. Can take a good grab and doesn't do too badly against much bigger forwards in defence. His kicking and decision making is the worry.

Nick Riewoldt :- Let him have the full year at CHF

Thomas will more than likely play him off the half back line. I agree with STL, he's not ready to cop a battering at this stage of his career.

Daniel Wulf :- Dud

He's got a future. I don't know why Blight left it so long to play him. Has against athleticism and pace and can do some freakish things.

Some good young talent coming through, but the superstars are on the wrong side of 30, they will be around long enough to teach the kids though.
Will win more games than they did in 2001, but not enough to make the 8

Good call and well done on the list. I couldn't do anywhere near as well rating the Port players

[/B]

[sainter]

Winmar,

If you're the same Winmar fan I've spoken to from the saints fan forum and FirstClass, welcome aboard. :D

[Winmar]

Alice certainly rocked, and Jimmy was great too!

Ah no more long hair. :( My girlfriend told me to cut mine because I'm now a teacher and have to look tidy, but I told her to get fecked (though a bit more politely). ;)

Sainter, would that be Deakin Uni first class? I was there until June this year. I'm a massive Winmar fan! My girlfriend's name is Wenny, so of course she became Wenny Winmar. :)

[Asgardian]

As a follow up, doing my final predictions after having done all the reviews and comparisons. I do not consider it to be slur on the Saints to say they have under-achieved throughout their history.

They have had some great talent available to them over the years, so is there then some creedence to the theory of "culture of failure"?

Recent outside people bought into the Saints have been spectacular in their failure, re Watson and Blight, both made comments about the Saints culture, and the need to change things there drastically.

There have been many examples in the past of inside people also failing at the Saints, so what is the answer?

Frankly the "Port Adelaide" in me says to rip apart the very fabric of the Saints, throw away all the old boys, sack all the dead wood, and clean out every single player who wouldn't do EXACTLY as he was told, burn off the history of failure, and start from scratch. This would mean a few seasons of heartache, but as long as you had the right people at the top, it would work. How practical all of this is in today's AFL, I'm not sure, I don't know if you could survive the upheaval years in today's economic climate.

All this comes down to having a "people manager" as a league coach, can he do the job. He is in this position because he is a Saints insider, he understands and embraces the culture, I believe this is the wrong track to be on, I believe he will be blown away by the professional football coaches in the AFL. This is all guess work, but because I am doing this prediction series, I have to make a lot of guesses.

With regard to the playing squad, there is plenty to like, just as there have been for a number of years. The intangibles are doubly important when discussing the Saints, no other club can seemingly self destruct, no other club has as its coach a person who has NO credentials.

Because of these reasons my positioning of the Saints is not as high as it might otherwise have been

I predict the Saints to finish season 2002 in 14th position

[Cyclops]

Harsh but fair, that's Asgardian.

Spot on about uprooting the old culture to achieve success. The Pies had to go through a flatline restructure (1986) to win in 1990 after 32 years of psychologically stunning failures. Now Eddie has done the same again, just to give us chance. I'm afraid it takes more than a new coach, though: you have to sack EVERYBODY. I think the only bloke left from the Kevin Rose administration is an 80-year-old volunteer called Alby-seriously.

[Porthos]

I think Thomas could do better than you expect, but I wouldn't expect a premiership.

St Kilda have one of the more talented lists in the league, and for the most part, if Thomas can get their heads straight, it'll go a long way towards getting them in the 8. The things he's done since getting the job remind me a lot of Mark Williams' initial coaching strategy. At least he should be able to get the saints motivated...

Now, whether he's up to on-field strategy or not I don't know....thats where having clever assistants comes in....all good coaches have them.

I'll say around the 9th-10th mark for St Kilda

[Hit The Boundary Saints]

Originally posted by Porthos


I'll say around the 9th-10th mark for St Kilda

At this stage I'd take that.

[Vaul Darkhour]

Hmmm I'm not going to respond to the above posts but agree with porthos.. ;)

[StrengthThroughLoyalty]

Originally posted by Asgardian
As a follow up, doing my final predictions after having done all the reviews and comparisons. I do not consider it to be slur on the Saints to say they have under-achieved throughout their history.

They have had some great talent available to them over the years, so is there then some creedence to the theory of "culture of failure"?

Recent outside people bought into the Saints have been spectacular in their failure, re Watson and Blight, both made comments about the Saints culture, and the need to change things there drastically.

There have been many examples in the past of inside people also failing at the Saints, so what is the answer?

Frankly the "Port Adelaide" in me says to rip apart the very fabric of the Saints, throw away all the old boys, sack all the dead wood, and clean out every single player who wouldn't do EXACTLY as he was told, burn off the history of failure, and start from scratch. This would mean a few seasons of heartache, but as long as you had the right people at the top, it would work. How practical all of this is in today's AFL, I'm not sure, I don't know if you could survive the upheaval years in today's economic climate.

All this comes down to having a "people manager" as a league coach, can he do the job. He is in this position because he is a Saints insider, he understands and embraces the culture, I believe this is the wrong track to be on, I believe he will be blown away by the professional football coaches in the AFL. This is all guess work, but because I am doing this prediction series, I have to make a lot of guesses.

With regard to the playing squad, there is plenty to like, just as there have been for a number of years. The intangibles are doubly important when discussing the Saints, no other club can seemingly self destruct, no other club has as its coach a person who has NO credentials.

Because of these reasons my positioning of the Saints is not as high as it might otherwise have been

I predict the Saints to finish season 2002 in 14th position

chris, just a couple of points of contention.

* the only coaches that have had any success over the last 12 years have been sheldon and alves, both were heavily involved with the club before their appointments.

* you need to qualify what you believe the credentials of an afl coach are to clarify your statement that thomas has "no credentials". i don't think the credentials of thomas are what most people are criticising the club about, it is the process of how he was appointed and that an untried coach can be appointed for 3 years. the criticism is warranted but it's now time to move on.

i believe one of the main credentials of a coach is to be able to motivate a group of individual players into playing as a team, and one of thomas' strengths is his ability as a communicator. thomas played afl footy at two clubs, he has been involved in the football departments of 3 afl clubs, coached country league premierships and the amateurs in melbourne. he hasn't got the cv of kevin sheedy but what first time afl coach has, to say that he has "no" credentials is just plain wrong. he has also coached 8 games of afl football under the most hostile media criticism of anyone that i can remember. he not only absorbed the hostile initiation of fire from the media, football public and st kilda members he has actually won the admiration of most st kilda people with the way that he has handled himself in this pressure cooker environment. his positive attitude and disregard for outside criticism suggests that he may really be able to "eat pressure for breakfast", wouldn't that annoy fatprick smith. :D

having said all that about thomas i still believe he has a very tough job in turning around a team low on confidence. if he can get the players into a positive frame of mind and everything goes right for us regarding injuries and form, it is not too much of a stretch to believe that we can make the 8, it is amazing what a few wins can do to the confidence of a team.

i am pleased that over the last 2 years the club have savagely cut the dead wood from the list, nearly 30 players gone.

we recruited and drafted well last year with hamill, gehrig and callahan all having good seasons whilst kossi and reiwoldt showed enough to suggest that they will become the key position players of the future.

heath black and pick #13 for an undisciplined trouble maker like barry hall was a great outcome for us over the trading period, he will be missed temporarily in our forward line though.

we have 20 players 22 and under so if you add picks #2, #5, #13, #21, .... in a reputedly very deep draft, we are well on the way to developing a decent side in 2003 and beyond.

i won't give up the hope that we can make the 8 next year however i more realistically expect next year to be an establishment year for our young blokes to continue to develop as players and as team mates and i hope that we can win 8 games.