Shame Howard Shame [Archive]

magpie_joffa

31 Oct 2001, 13:23

Howard your a fraud a biggot and a redneck racist.

Tell me if the events that occured on 11th sept had not have occured would we be going to an election next weekend well let me tell you if the aweful attack on america did not occur there is no way known would we be going to the polls.

Howard the gutless worm is riding on the back of a great disaster which has affected so many people throughout the world, good on ya redneck you are so transparent.

To get votes he has sided with all the racist deadbeat scum in our society re the tampa boat people, oh your a caring man little john,

In bed with pauline hanson you ****.

We were a caring nation once but you ended that, and for those who want to see what great harm this government is doing watch sbs tomorrow night and see how refugee children with permission to stay here for 3 years only, they live alone with out any knowledge of knowing if any relatives are alive or not.

The new refugee policies will probably never allow there parants to come and reside in australia , the government believes when afghanistan is returned back to normal these children must go back home umm excuse me to what???

gee i wonder if a boat load of germans seeking refugee status would ever be turned away or dutch or or whatever, oh sorry i forgot they wouldnt be turned away simply because they are white and most probably not muslim.

And to those poor white australians with a mentality of a 5 cent piece who believe they have a right to decide who lives here because they were born here, you are self centred and very very nasty little people you have no right to call your selves australians you are bigots and hypocrites just like our prime minister you are so transparent a nice place in hell waits for you you simplistic non caring bastards.

SHAME HOWARD SHAME.

BUBBALOUIS

31 Oct 2001, 18:36

hay joff, welcome back .....

i believe most Australians are tolerant people, but last Friday night i realized how much that L'il Johnny Howard has divided and scared this nation ..... having dinner with friends we were talking about the boat people and the poor refugees that drowned in Indonesia last week, a couple sitting in front of us stared straight at us and at the top of there voices said, its time we burned all the mosques down ....

I was that angry, my wife had to restrain me, and we quietly left the restaurant in disgust .....

Doesnt that little tu#d realise that he is pandering to the worst in people to win a few votes?

Player

31 Oct 2001, 19:03

What is it that you object to Joffa?

That Howard wants to physically turn away all the boat people, or that it is also Labor party policy also.

Frodo

31 Oct 2001, 19:07

That's an unreasonabe and biased post only worthy of a bigot Joffa. Theit term was up so an election had to be held within a month or two.

As for li'l Jonny Howard how much of a discriminatory remark is that. Are you also anti fat, black or female people.

This country faces a world recession and a troubled international scene.

This government has made Australia one of the strongest economic nations in the world and we should be proud of their achievements. We also have the strongest leader seen for many a decade who is respected throughout the western world and many other countries too.

Player

31 Oct 2001, 19:45

I should probably read threads more closely before replying.

Howard's policies have always demonstrated sympathies popular with his electorate. Immigration is no difference with all Australians no doubt wanting a prosperious knowledge based economy and to be a good international citizen. Clearly these aims are not always mutally inclusive.

I assume the plan everybody shared for Australia did not include a yearly influx of thousands of destitute, non-english speaking migrants.

Their is no point demonising or lionising him because the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

As for his international profile Frodo it is that deferred to any atypical Australian Prime Minister. No more, no less.

London Dave

1 Nov 2001, 02:33

Dont really know why I bother, but..
Frodo..what planet are you on?????

Australia one of the strongest economic nations??? That's why the dollar has toileted (which incidentally is fine by me, cos I can pay off another house in Oz, for the equivalent of forgoing a nice meal in a Lonsdon restaurant once a month.) Get with it Frodo, the government can basically do sweet FA on the economy. Its a global thing.

John Howard, the strongest leader we have had for decades and respected throughout the world (and many other countries)??? He would get respect due to his office, but as far as leadership wise, not much at all I'd say. You should have seen the pasting he copped in the press (and rightfully so) overseas with regard to his asylum seeker 'solution'.

Then I hear (and read in the papers) that members of government state Australia is 'high up' on the international terrorist hit list. HA HA HA. If you believe that, you'd swallow anything. People trying to gain your support thru spreading fear don't deserve it. the only crisis to hit Oz would be another Christmas beer strike.

Bubba, I found on my last trip back to Oz the attitudes you experienced on your night out. Pretty scary, but when pollies start pandering to peoples irrational fears, this is how it ends up. a bit of guts but leaders on all sides of the spectrum would have nipped Hanson and her lot in the bud. Unfortunately, it seems nowadays the red necks seem to jump to the head of the queue.

Everyone in Oz is an immigrant from somewhere. Don't forget it. It's just a matter of how many generations.

I see the 'buying of votes' stage of the election is well under way. Those of you who are voting, I trust one may decide for whom to cast your vote is decided with a little 'compassion', instead of whoring your vote to the highest bidder.

Nice post from the heart Joffa, I understand exactly where you are coming from.

The Hitman

1 Nov 2001, 05:15

They haven't called an election on the back of September 11.

They had to call an election for this year, their time was up. I object that the Howard government is 'riding off the back of the tragedy'. What are they meant to do?

The Hitman

NakedDeadGuy

1 Nov 2001, 06:02

Why wouldn't Howard call an election on the back of any event that was more likely than not to be favourable to him? It's called politics, and for him not to have would have been stupid.

BUBBALOUIS

1 Nov 2001, 06:56

Originally posted by The Hitman
They haven't called an election on the back of September 11.

They had to call an election for this year, their time was up. I object that the Howard government is 'riding off the back of the tragedy'. What are they meant to do?

The Hitman

Hitman, the 'boat people' issue has been a problem for five years, Howard gets 'tough' in the same month as he calls an election ........ lol, give me a break

Obect to the term Li'l Frodo .... my my you are a sensitive chap ..... , interesting you didnt comment on my experience but on the word li'l .... oh well i retract that offensive word.lol so your now clear to argue the point rather than a word ..... lol

Solace

1 Nov 2001, 09:00

well said Joffa, and Bubbalous.

I would like for once in the history of the modern western world for a leader to be elected who stands for some morals, dignity and common human decency, and not for getting re-elected at all cost. Somebody people could actually respect for who they are.

I beleive we will pay for our evils's. Every society in history that reaches a certain level of decadence and greed collapses sooner or later. We all have a responsibility as human beings to help one another, if that means we pay an extra 50 dollars a year on tax then really who cares. Is that worth our integrity, is that worth going to hell for.

It is pathetic to see politicians manipulating peoples deep seated fears and insecurities of life to get a few votes, in pauline hansons case she belonged to this group that had these characteristics, in howards case he simply manipulates people who posses them. He is the most manipulative and uncaring politician (publically) that i have seen.

Frodo

1 Nov 2001, 10:22

Originally posted by Player
I
As for his international profile Frodo it is that deferred to any atypical Australian Prime Minister. No more, no less.

I cannot remember John Howard be eing tainted with such pleasantries overseas as 'The Lizard of Oz' as was the last Labour Prime Mnister

BUBBALOUIS

1 Nov 2001, 10:27

Originally posted by Frodo

I cannot remember John Howard be eing tainted with such pleasantries overseas as 'The Lizard of Oz' as was the last Labour Prime Mnister

ahhh Frodo , quoting British tabloids, yeah there a true reflection on society arent they.lol

Wasnt Keating also voted the Worlds best Treasurer at one stage? :)

Frodo

1 Nov 2001, 10:27

Originally posted by London Dave
Dont really know why I bother, but..
Frodo..what planet are you on?????

Australia one of the strongest economic nations??? That's why the dollar has toileted (which incidentally is fine by me, cos I can pay off another house in Oz, for the equivalent of forgoing a nice meal in a Lonsdon restaurant once a month.) Get with it Frodo,

I am with it unlike the dandiprats of society!

I will not waste time debating where understanding of issues is clearly not possible but on the subject of the low dollar you will find that our very successful balance of payments situation is a direct result of a low dollar policy and increased competitiveness ensuing. In comparison USA has a very high dollar and is uffereing enormous pain because of it. UK industry is sufferring to due to the pound with manafacturing job losses at epedemic proportions.

BUBBALOUIS

1 Nov 2001, 10:30

Bloodstained Angel

1 Nov 2001, 10:37

Howard enjoys a great international profile ?

pull the other one !

Most people overseas don't even know his name ! or be able to recognize the guy's face.

In America recently the LA Times called him John Hunt.

On his recent visit to the USA, George Bush had to reminded of Howard's name seconds before they were due to meet.

Bill Clinton spared him a 10 minute phone conversation last time.

Megawati can't stand the guy and very deliberately and publicly snubbed him at APEC.

At the Olympics Opening Ceremony last year, Howard was photographed sharing the podium with Samaranch. The International press agencies identifyed Howard in the photo as an "Unidentified Australian Official"

ha ha ha - that one really takes the cake.

Truth is - the Rest of the World can't even correctly identify John Howard as the Prime Minister of Australia !

International Profile ? - yep sure, Howard enjoys about as much international profile as James Hird.

absolutely diddly squat - he is a provincial politican through and through and is treated accordingly.

cheers

Bee

1 Nov 2001, 11:06

BUBBALOUIS

1 Nov 2001, 11:10

Originally posted by Bee

Bubba, I agree with you.
I had almost the same experience as you at the weekend. Arriving back at the airport (Melbourne) on Saturday afternoon we made our way to the taxi rank. In front of us was a couple probably aged in their fifties. The taxi that pulled up for them was driven by a muslim, they refused to accept his taxi and the comments from them to him were the most racist and bigotted I have ever heard. Needless to say we jumped in the taxi and the stories that man told about how he has been treated since September 11th were an embarrassment to Australia.

The scary part is , now they have unleashed this raw emotion and anger, how are they then going to calm things down after the election .... Howard may have pulled back some Hanson admirers but at what cost?

Bee

1 Nov 2001, 11:25

Yeah Bubba,
It's called wedge politics which literally means driving a wedge between factions of society.

BUBBALOUIS

1 Nov 2001, 11:27

Originally posted by Bee
Yeah Bubba,
It's called wedge politics which literally means driving a wedge between factions of society.

I know where id like to drive that wedge :mad:

Jars458

1 Nov 2001, 14:01

Originally posted by Frodo
We also have the strongest leader seen for many a decade who is respected throughout the western world and many other countries too.

You make me crack up

How do you define strong leader?

Hitler was a strong leader.

Why are we respected becasue of Howard??

Because we turn back helpless refugees?

We introduce regressive consumption taxes?

Give me a break.

You are a disgrace to your logon name. A man who did not discriminate between dwarf elf ent and wizard.

Unlike you hero little John Howard (little in the sense of personality and compassion)

And before you say - I know Labor suck too

I don't vote for them either.

Captain Sensible

1 Nov 2001, 14:15

Originally posted by Frodo

I am with it unlike the dandiprats of society!

I will not waste time debating where understanding of issues is clearly not possible but on the subject of the low dollar you will find that our very successful balance of payments situation is a direct result of a low dollar policy and increased competitiveness ensuing. In comparison USA has a very high dollar and is uffereing enormous pain because of it. UK industry is sufferring to due to the pound with manafacturing job losses at epedemic proportions.

So Frodo selling off our biggest assett that bought in 3 billion dollars a year in revenue was a good idea?

Why is it that the current account deficit is at a record high and our national debt is worse than at any time in our histoty?

Your callous indifference to small business is unbelievable, although it fits perfectly with our PM.

Mean and tricky.

Our PM brings great shame on us all by blame shifting, wedge politics and outright lying to the electorate when it suits him.

I cant wait to see him gone, bring on november 10.

Shinboners

1 Nov 2001, 14:17

I have always voted Liberal except for the last Federal election and I won't be voting Liberal on Saturday week. The main reason is that ever since John Hewson got his mitts on the party, the small L Liberals like McPhee, Chaney, and Peacock have been eased out, thus leaving us with a party that has no compassion or vision for creating a better society.

In the 1970s when Australia under Fraser decided to take in the Vietnamese refugees, there was as much opposition then to letting them in as there is now to allowing the refugees to enter Australia now. The main difference is that back in the 70s, the government took a compassionate view and argued to the Australian public that this was the right thing to do. Now, the refugees are being used as pawns to win an election.

But sadly, I can't vote for the ALP either. Beazley, if you really did have confidence in your vision for Australia, then you should have argued it rather than running scared the moment the polls dipped against you. As for Tashi and her Democrats.......God.....women's rights in Afghanistan anyone?????

Bloodstained Angel

1 Nov 2001, 14:22

Its a paradox isn't it ?

There is no place for liberals in the Liberal Party ? :( :confused:

He might be John Howards hero but I'm sure Bob Menzies is spinning in his grave when he sees what Howard is doing to his party.

cheers

Shinboners

1 Nov 2001, 14:53

Another paradox....is there anyone who is running for the ALP in the election that has actually worked as a labourer? Or in a factory?

There is no place for labourers in the ALP.

Chiefley must be spinning in his grave too.

Jars458

1 Nov 2001, 14:58

Originally posted by Shinboners
Another paradox....is there anyone who is running for the ALP in the election that has actually worked as a labourer? Or in a factory?

There is no place for labourers in the ALP.

Chiefley must be spinning in his grave too.

No doubt about that

the ALP is a shadow of its former self

But - if they were - they would never get elected

its how its going in Western Democracies as globalisation and competition starts to squeeze.

Those futuristic movies don't seem so far off now.

sigscotty

1 Nov 2001, 15:27

So we are all agreed?

Howard is terrible.

Beazley not much better, if at all.

One of thse men will hold the highest office in the land for the next three years. Somehow the word democracy just doesn't seem to fit.

Satay Mat

1 Nov 2001, 17:24

I sort of agree with Shinners....

I have voted ALP before and I have voted Libs before. There is one thing stopping be voting Lib in this election and that is Little Johnny.

Frodo you are seriously on drugs.....Howard a great leader ? Howard is a follower. He is the most popularist PM we have had that I can remember. Why is he tough on boat people ???? it is popular for him to be. Even if you look at the Shell Woodside non-deal of a couple of months back. Standard Liberal policy would see it go through....the block it....why ? It was popular to do so. A good leader IMHO is not popularist...they do not follow public opinion in policy formation....they change public opinion through policy. Good recent political leaders IMHO (no particular order)

Keating
Kennett
Dunstan
Whitlam
Menzies

Both left and right but one thing in common....they had principles and took their country / state in a direction accordingly.

I can think of 2 Howard policies which are not popularist.

1. GST. I like it. Most do not. He pushed it through and good on him. I do not think though that he did that through great leadership. He did it by selling his majority at the last election. It was a gamble rather than leadership.

2. The Republic. Clearly he is swimming against the tide on this one. Good on him....it is that sort of leadership (if you can call arguing for the status quo leadership) which is required. Unfortunately as far as I am concerned, he has picked the one topic to hold his ground on that is a key factor in my voting decision....stiff.

He is not a leader Frodo....he is a puppet of the people....and a fairly lowest common denominator sort of people as well.

Satay Mat

RogerC

1 Nov 2001, 18:38

The most amazing aspect of this election campaign is that all the cards have fallen into the Coalition's hands - the Tampa "crisis" (engineered or not, the timing was pretty good), and the events of September 11, sent the popularity of the incumbent government sky high - and yet within 5 weeks they've used it all up, and the polls are neck and neck again. How incompetent are they that they can't capitalise on the biggest electoral gift going around?

I would have hoped that the Liberals wouldn't resort to playing the racist card, but I really can't find any other way to describe their handling of the Tampa refugees. Our refugee policy is a very sensitive area, requiring tact, deep thought and a lot of diplomacy. And yet Howard, Ruddock and Reith have gone all out to vilify the refugees, pander to the racist element in our society and continually bait the Labor party for not being "tough enough" on the refugees. And this wins votes? What sort of society do we live in?

Howard was snubbed at APEC; there's no other way to look at it, no matter what spin he puts on it. Only Dubbya would speak with him. Indonesia ignores us, most of Europe see us as hick rednecks, the US pays us lip service because Howard is panting to get our troops over there whether they're needed or not. Our international standing is rock bottom, and our economy is only alive because the dollar is so weak that exports look attractive. And the surplus has dried up (where did it go??). Good economic managers my butthole.

We spent a fortune relocating refugees onto tiny islands through expensive bribes - the irony being that most of them will end up here anyway. But if Howard can keep on slagging off Afghans for a few more days he might win office again. At what cost? We keep emphasising that we live in a global economy. Australia is anything but self-sustaining. Why do we applaud Liberal Party efforts to erode our international good will and economic standing? I don't get it.

Shinboners

1 Nov 2001, 19:28

Satay Mat

Firstly, Indonesia's view of Australia. On my way back from China, I chatted to an Indonesian that was sitting next to me. He had a lot of goodwill towards our country, but detested our government. I was wondering if that attitude is the general feeling amongst most Indonesians. The other thing is that he was very keen to visit Australia as a tourist, but said that it was very difficult to get a tourist visa for Australia.....that totally astonished me.

Secondly, the Woodside deal. The government got their decisions wrong. They should have allowed the Woodside/Shell deal (it seems that Shell will now not be sharing their technical knowhow with Woodside, and hence, the natural gas resource won't be fully exploited), but they should have blocked the BHP/Billiton deal (which has married BHP assets, many of which have strong cash flows with Billiton assets that are much more risky). But hell, if this can't be explained on trashy...sorry, prime time current affairs programs or on talkback radio, why bother? As you say, they've shown no leadership on the issue.

I also agree with Roger C's point about playing the race card. I would have voted Liberal if only to make a point that I don't like the idea of having Beazley as a Prime Minister, but the use of the race card stops me from voting for the Liberals.

magpie_joffa

1 Nov 2001, 20:38

Originally posted by Solace
well said Joffa, and Bubbalous.

I would like for once in the history of the modern western world for a leader to be elected who stands for some morals, dignity and common human decency, and not for getting re-elected at all cost. Somebody people could actually respect for who they are.

I beleive we will pay for our evils's. Every society in history that reaches a certain level of decadence and greed collapses sooner or later. We all have a responsibility as human beings to help one another, if that means we pay an extra 50 dollars a year on tax then really who cares. Is that worth our integrity, is that worth going to hell for.

It is pathetic to see politicians manipulating peoples deep seated fears and insecurities of life to get a few votes, in pauline hansons case she belonged to this group that had these characteristics, in howards case he simply manipulates people who posses them. He is the most manipulative and uncaring politician (publically) that i have seen.

BRILLIANT , EXCELLENT.

magpie_joffa

1 Nov 2001, 20:44

magpie_joffa

1 Nov 2001, 21:18

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS
hay joff, welcome back .....

i believe most Australians are tolerant people, but last Friday night i realized how much that L'il Johnny Howard has divided and scared this nation ..... having dinner with friends we were talking about the boat people and the poor refugees that drowned in Indonesia last week, a couple sitting in front of us stared straight at us and at the top of there voices said, its time we burned all the mosques down ....

I was that angry, my wife had to restrain me, and we quietly left the restaurant in disgust .....

Doesnt that little tu#d realise that he is pandering to the worst in people to win a few votes?

Good stuff bubba,

I have some muslim friends from the middle east and im proud to have them as friends im proud to call them australians, i was talking to her last week and she was driven to tears because of the victimisation her 2 young girls are going through at school by so called fellow australians.

You know what the tragedy is these marvellous people did so much welfare work for the needy people in my area but because of their middle eastern appearance they can no longer do this.

Now dont get me wrong im proud to be australian, but australia and australians are not what they used to be.

We have become insecure and frightened and we have become skeptical of any one who doesnt look australian, what a sad and sorry race we have become. how lucky are we that our history and present hasnt been ruined by cival wars, how lucky are we that one australian every minute isnt killed by the enemy.

How lucky are we that we dont starve to death. Yet we have no compassion to those in real need, the poor and the unwanted seeking a better place to live, who in the long run will probably turn out to be more productive and caring australians than those who were born here.

Australia doesnt belong to those who were born here, as a so called caring nation (what a joke) we have a human responsibility to care for anyone seeking a better way of life, the turning away of genuine refugees is disgusting and violates human rights.

Im sickened by the rednecks who get on talk back radio and say too bad about the 300 hundred human beings who drowned whilst seeking the safety of our shores.

And the poor children who drowned and whose only crime was to be born in a hell on earth.

But by reading some of these replies maybe all is not lost, maybe just maybe their is hope for australia yet.

afghan people are no different to us, muslims are no different to us, we are all human beings living on the one planet.

To those redneck racist australian pigs id love to send you off to places like afghanistan for a couple of weeks.

And dont forget that weird little man we call our prime minister is seeking votes out of other peoples misfortunes.

shame shame shame you bastards.

Asgardian

1 Nov 2001, 22:10

Originally posted by magpie_joffa

Now dont get me wrong im proud to be australian, but australia and australians are not what they used to be.

We have become insecure and frightened and we have become skeptical of any one who doesnt look australian, what a sad and sorry race we have become.

Joffa, ALL generalisations because of race, colour, religion etc is usually wrong.

What you accuse ALL Australians of is just as repugnant as saying ALL Muslims are bad, etc

Frankly I'm sick of the holier than thou attitude displayed by you Joffa, I enjoy all peoples company, but I dislike being lumped together in a collective ALL by you, just because I am not vocal in this debate, like millions of other Australians, does not give you the right to label me, or us, "a sad and sorry race".

London Dave

2 Nov 2001, 04:20

Hi Frodo, its London calling......

I am with it unlike the dandiprats of society! --ohh, sticks and stones!!!!!!!!

I will not waste time debating where understanding of issues is clearly not possible (but its OK to indulge in a little name calling..Dandiprat indeed) but on the subject of the low dollar you will find that our very successful balance of payments situation
(show me the numbers!!!)
is a direct result of a low dollar policy
(this is the same low dollar policy that has resulted in Pete Costello et al spending time trying to talk the dollar up, right?, and the same one that the RBA spent zillions of FC reserves to prop up trhe dollar???)
and increased competitiveness ensuing. In comparison USA has a very high dollar and is uffereing enormous pain because of it(US 'pain' has little to do with the dollar, more likely a combination of tech stock crash, loss of confidence in stock market and resulting loss of consumer confidence, although indications seem to point to consumers still being reasonably positive about spending their money).
(SOME) UK industry is sufferring to (IN PART) due to the pound with manafacturing job losses at epedemic proportions.

Did like your call about not wasting time debating the issues...and thanks for calling me a dandiprat..made my day....and I'm still waiting to hear about all these people all over the world who see Howard as a strong leader. No one knows or cares who he is! Then the claim he wasn't 'tainted' by the british tabloid press made him a better leader than Keating..HA HA, I think another poster made the point the LA press couldnt get his name right....

As I prefaced my original post, I don't know why I bother but....
If you are WITH IT Frodo, thank heavens I'm not. Dandiprat awaits your next reply.......or will you just give up and stick your head back up your rectum?

Satay Mat, like your post on leadership, and agreed with your list.

Pessimistic

2 Nov 2001, 07:04

Originally posted by Shinboners
Another paradox....is there anyone who is running for the ALP in the election that has actually worked as a labourer? Or in a factory?

There is no place for labourers in the ALP.

Chiefley must be spinning in his grave too.

We are still labourers, only now we have computers instead of shovels.
I define the working class as those who need to work for someone else to survive. I'm certainly in that group.

Excuse me while I get back to work.....

Pessimistic

2 Nov 2001, 07:08

Originally posted by Shinboners
Satay Mat

Firstly, Indonesia's view of Australia. On my way back from China, I chatted to an Indonesian that was sitting next to me. He had a lot of goodwill towards our country, but detested our government. I was wondering if that attitude is the general feeling amongst most Indonesians. The other thing is that he was very keen to visit Australia as a tourist, but said that it was very difficult to get a tourist visa for Australia.....that totally astonished me.

Secondly, the Woodside deal. The government got their decisions wrong. They should have allowed the Woodside/Shell deal (it seems that Shell will now not be sharing their technical knowhow with Woodside, and hence, the natural gas resource won't be fully exploited), but they should have blocked the BHP/Billiton deal (which has married BHP assets, many of which have strong cash flows with Billiton assets that are much more risky). But hell, if this can't be explained on trashy...sorry, prime time current affairs programs or on talkback radio, why bother? As you say, they've shown no leadership on the issue.

I also agree with Roger C's point about playing the race card. I would have voted Liberal if only to make a point that I don't like the idea of having Beazley as a Prime Minister, but the use of the race card stops me from voting for the Liberals.

I agree. Think about this. a 100 million plus people just to the north of us which would need to be invaded before anyone could invade australia.

If we have a defence agreement with them, we are safe. No agreement - we have no defence policy worth a toss.

Pessimistic

2 Nov 2001, 07:15

London Dave.

Can you help me out ? Today in the papers we learn that the taliban is now at war with australia.

John Howard tells us not to worry and that security measures have been taken. Now apart form a blitz this morning by train ticket inspectors I see very little evidence of this. Could you describe to some of our local posters some of the precautions being taken in london, a place whic actually understands what terrorism means in daily life.

This is why I suspect Howard is the biggest con man ever. he keeps saying dangerous and uncertain everytime he opens his mouth but I don't think australia is really at risk, and he is using alarming language just to frighten peole into voting for him.

If auistralia is at risk, why aren't more visible security measures being taken ?

Bloodstained Angel

2 Nov 2001, 09:08

I'll say one thing

Prior to Sep11, I sincerely doubt whether the Taliban / Bin Laden would even have heard of the word "Australia" let alone realise exactly what Australia is.

Now however it seems the Taliban suddenly know exactly who we are and what side we are on.

Is this what Howard means when he talks about 'putting Australia on the map" ?

:( :mad: :eek:

cheers

magpie_joffa

2 Nov 2001, 09:47

The liberals are desperate just wait until next week the final week of the campaign and sit back and listen to the scare mongering howard will come up with, im expecting the refugees to cop another dose in the media and i expect that this time next week we will all be running around with gas masks on, or should i say those who live in liberal blue seats.

Dippers Donuts

2 Nov 2001, 10:13

probably right there joffa.

The liberals though are ****tin themselves about the next lot of enemployment data which will be released a couple of days before the election.

That could be the real nail in their coffin.

Shinboners

2 Nov 2001, 12:22

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
Prior to Sep11, I sincerely doubt whether the Taliban / Bin Laden would even have heard of the word "Australia" let alone realise exactly what Australia is.

Now however it seems the Taliban suddenly know exactly who we are and what side we are on.

It seems that over a period of about a week, one journalist kept on asking the Taliban ambassador about the Taliban's attitude towards Australia.

(With a bit of poetic license from me): Last week it was "no comment", then it was followed by, "Australia? Yeah right....as if a superpower like the Great Satan needs Australia's help", and then last night was "Oh, okay...just to shut you up.....we now declare a jihad on Australia, happy now?".

In the whole scheme of things, Australia would rank well below the United States, the United Kingdom, Pakistan, Turkey (an Islamic nation with a secular government), and Israel as targets for Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 12:24

Originally posted by localyokel

So Frodo selling off our biggest assett that bought in 3 billion dollars a year in revenue was a good idea?

In my opinion YES

In Paul Keatings opinion yes.

According to Keating the sale of Qantas was BEAZLEYS idea and BEAZLEY was a big supporter of the sale of the Commonwealth bank.

The agruments about privatisation have raged for years but never forget that LABOUR supports privatisation.

magpie_joffa

2 Nov 2001, 12:30

Originally posted by Frodo

In my opinion YES

In Paul Keatings opinion yes.

According to Keating the sale of Qantas was BEAZLEYS idea and BEAZLEY was a big supporter of the sale of the Commonwealth bank.

The agruments about privatisation have raged for years but never forget that LABOUR supports privatisation.

hahahahahah paul keating gee your getting desperate frodo i mean where in the thuck is paul keating now ???

He has nothing to do with the ALP 's policies leading up to this election, and just because a former party prime minister was in favor of privatising telstra doesnt mean that the present opposition leader is in favor of privatising telstra in fact he has stated he will not privatise telstra.

getting a bit edgy frodo. your sounding like the little redneck and that is very repetitive and boring.

BUBBALOUIS

2 Nov 2001, 12:32

Originally posted by Frodo

In my opinion YES

In Paul Keatings opinion yes.

According to Keating the sale of Qantas was BEAZLEYS idea and BEAZLEY was a big supporter of the sale of the Commonwealth bank.

The agruments about privatisation have raged for years but never forget that LABOUR supports privatisation.

So you support Keating, and now will vote for Beazley? Obviously yes, as they are the reason for your economic rationalism? Funny how you on one hand say Beazley has no idea, but on the other quote his past deeds as being good for our economy ....

Selling a Bank, where there is some competition, is different to selling off Telstrsa where there is in most rural cases, no competition, therefore less services , higher prices ....

Shinboners

2 Nov 2001, 12:40

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS
Selling a Bank, where there is some competition, is different to selling off Telstrsa where there is in most rural cases, no competition, therefore less services , higher prices ....

I'm not from a rural area, so I can't comment on what the services and prices are like in the country, however, I can say that call costs have fallen dramatically since the part-privatisation of Telstra and the introduction of competitors like Optus, Vodafone, etc., and it's rather amazing the number of functions I now have on my mobile phone. So therefore, in the city at least, there is plenty of competition, more services at lower prices.

Shinboners

2 Nov 2001, 12:43

Originally posted by magpie_joffa
He has nothing to do with the ALP 's policies leading up to this election, and just because a former party prime minister was in favor of privatising telstra doesnt mean that the present opposition leader is in favor of privatising telstra in fact he has stated he will not privatise telstra.

It's probably a bit silly to believe everything a politician says during an election campaign whether the politician is Liberal or from the ALP.

If the Liberals got in, there is no way that the rest of Telstra would get privatised as they would never get the numbers needed in the Senate to get the legislation through. Young Tashi from the Democrats is ideologically opposed to it whilst the ALP wouldn't want to give the government any easy money.

However, if the ALP got in and decided that they needed to raise money by selling the other 50.1% of Telstra, then it would be very likely to go through as they would get the support of the Liberals in the Senate.

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 12:45

Originally posted by London Dave

Australia one of the strongest economic nations??? That's why the dollar has toileted (which incidentally is fine by me, cos I can pay off another house in Oz, for the equivalent of forgoing a nice meal in a Lonsdon restaurant once a month.)

So let's explore this issue.

You are someone who has left Australia, lives on the other side of the planet yet professes knowledge about our politics and politicians :rolleyes:

You have a house in Australia. An investment which you think is worthwhile, otherwise you would clearly have sold it and taken the cash to your new country or invested it in a more profitable way. If the A$ was at USD80c as per four years ago or 50p in your money then you most likeley would have sold out. However the low value of the A$ has persuaded you to keep your investment in Australia. And that scenario is repeated in buisness a thousandfold and more. So, Howard has kept investment in Australia by his policy.
Now I am one person that can complain about the low dollar. Over the past four years I have lost more cash in forex losses than many can dream of. I am mainly an importer and the low dollar increases the cost of imports and decreases the cost of product exported which benefits Australian Industry.
So Howard has protected Australian industry and jobs.

Lastly, I closed several manufacturing plants a few years ago and moved production overseas, under Labour, a high dollar and 17.5% interest rates. If the dollar had been lower I may have been persuaded to keep those plants open even though the union made manufacturing a nightmare.
labour = spending, borrowing to do so and high interest rates ensuing. Labour policies are bad for Jobs. Liberal policies are good for jobs. Just look at the unemployment rate difference between Labour and Liberal governments for proof.

I along with many other busines people have plans for growth and the taking on of more staff in Australia. I along with every other businessman I have spoken too will put that recruitment on hold should Labour win.

A vote for Labour is a vote for unemployment, higher interest rates, more unemployment, lower investment, more handouts, more borrowing, a return to union law and a much weaker Australia.

VOTE LIBERAL.......IN YOUR HEART YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE

Bloodstained Angel

2 Nov 2001, 12:53

Don't vote Liberal, in heart you know they don't have one

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 12:55

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS

So you support Keating, and now will vote for Beazley? Obviously yes, as they are the reason for your economic rationalism? Funny how you on one hand say Beazley has no idea, but on the other quote his past deeds as being good for our economy ....

Selling a Bank, where there is some competition, is different to selling off Telstrsa where there is in most rural cases, no competition, therefore less services , higher prices ....

I actually detested Keating and Beazley is a bumbling loss as a leader.
But unlike many I do agree and disagree with policies of ever party. I agreed with Keating on privatisation and the GST but I didn't vote for him because other policies were BAD.

IF Liberals sold off Telstra then they have clearly stated that the country areas would be guaranteed to be looked after beforehand. So don't give me that rural crap.

However IMO county users should pay what their services costs. I don't want my tax going to subsidise them, the 1000 teachers HECS or the huge handouts to aboriginal groups that will ensue after Labour says sorry on behalf of SOME Australians...NOT ME

Jars458

2 Nov 2001, 12:58

Originally posted by Frodo

A vote for Labour is a vote for unemployment, higher interest rates, more unemployment, lower investment, more handouts, more borrowing, a return to union law and a much weaker Australia.

VOTE LIBERAL.......IN YOUR HEART YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE

So, how do you see the economy going when most businesses in order to meet shareholder demands to have increasing profit growth have to cut costs.

The main way they do this is by cutting jobs and increasing technology to less labour intensive methods.

If this continues more and more of the population will be squeezed out of the work force or will be in extremely low paid jobs

Meanwhile any production that does occur goes on in Asia where the cost of labour is significantly lower because of lower/slave wages and in some countries child slavery.

Meanwhile the gap between the have and have-nots gets bigger and bigger and ordinarly people are left to fall by the wayside

So what we get is an increasingly disenchanted population who will need to be controlled by stronger security and policing methods whiich will result in teh loss of freedoms.

So not only will much of the population have no economic freedom, their physical freedom will also be under threat.

Labor is doing nothing to stop this either as they have gone so far to the right, the only real difference is that Labor have some comapsison and care for people whilst the Libs have almost none

The Liberal view of a level playing field for everyone to have an equal chance of success simply does not exist.

All that your good interest rate numbers etc etc do is increase big buisness profits and returns to shareholders.

The Rich get Richer the Poor get Poorer

Better trample on the Unions hey, as they stand up for the working man.

Society is going down the toilet. No two ways about it.

The conditions I have described above may actually produce (eventually) the fundamental conditions required for a Karl Marx type revelution.

Don't get me wrong _ I am not a Marxist/ Communist

I like to think of myslef as a centre - right socialist.

But people need at leat an even chance. Such a thing has never existed in the histroy of this country. Class divisions inherited from the British have been replaced by economic class divisions of globalisation.

Anyway -that's what I think.

Bee

2 Nov 2001, 12:58

Originally posted by Frodo

VOTE LIBERAL.......IN YOUR HEART YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE

YEP BUT JUST DON'T LET YOUR HEART RULE YOUR HEAD!

And Frodo, it's Labor NOT Labour!

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 13:07

Originally posted by Bee

YEP BUT JUST DON'T LET YOUR HEART RULE YOUR HEAD!

And Frodo, it's Labor NOT Labour!

Until Australia adopts the American language I prefer to use the correct spelling.

magpie_joffa

2 Nov 2001, 13:29

Originally posted by Jars458

So, how do you see the economy going when most businesses in order to meet shareholder demands to have increasing profit growth have to cut costs.

The main way they do this is by cutting jobs and increasing technology to less labour intensive methods.

If this continues more and more of the population will be squeezed out of the work force or will be in extremely low paid jobs

Meanwhile any production that does occur goes on in Asia where the cost of labour is significantly lower because of lower/slave wages and in some countries child slavery.

Meanwhile the gap between the have and have-nots gets bigger and bigger and ordinarly people are left to fall by the wayside

So what we get is an increasingly disenchanted population who will need to be controlled by stronger security and policing methods whiich will result in teh loss of freedoms.

So not only will much of the population have no economic freedom, their physical freedom will also be under threat.

Labor is doing nothing to stop this either as they have gone so far to the right, the only real difference is that Labor have some comapsison and care for people whilst the Libs have almost none

The Liberal view of a level playing field for everyone to have an equal chance of success simply does not exist.

All that your good interest rate numbers etc etc do is increase big buisness profits and returns to shareholders.

The Rich get Richer the Poor get Poorer

Better trample on the Unions hey, as they stand up for the working man.

Society is going down the toilet. No two ways about it.

The conditions I have described above may actually produce (eventually) the fundamental conditions required for a Karl Marx type revelution.

Don't get me wrong _ I am not a Marxist/ Communist

I like to think of myslef as a centre - right socialist.

But people need at leat an even chance. Such a thing has never existed in the histroy of this country. Class divisions inherited from the British have been replaced by economic class divisions of globalisation.

Anyway -that's what I think.

GIVE THIS MAN A THUCKING CIGAR, WELL SAID ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON.

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 13:41

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jars458

So, how do you see the economy going when most businesses in order to meet shareholder demands to have increasing profit growth have to cut costs.

The main way they do this is by cutting jobs and increasing technology to less labour intensive methods.
Incorrect, The main way is by increasing sales and developing better product. Shareholders control the company share price and therefore demand a fair return on their investment. A good company will grow and provide profit growth but the dividends are usually not a lot more than say property investment returns and the downside risk is great. Just look at the value of Telstra shares now and how much was paid for the last sale. Technology does reduce jobs but that has always been the case. Blame Stevenson for the steam engine and the loss of all the horse and cartmen or what. Society has always had to adopt to change. Look at all the new jobs in enviromentalism created in recent years that never existed.
If this continues more and more of the population will be squeezed out of the work force or will be in extremely low paid jobs

Meanwhile any production that does occur goes on in Asia where the cost of labour is significantly lower because of lower/slave wages and in some countries child slavery.
There needs to be a recognition that some people do things better than others. Australians are terrible at manufacturing in general whereas China is excellent, as is Japan and Germany. singapore was but it is now becoming a financial centre. I have seen a lot i China and India. Things you may call child labor/slavery, but you are wrong. I see children brought up in a family business who are taught to weave silk from an early ages to continue the culture. They are happy and proud. You need to undestand the cultural differences.

Meanwhile the gap between the have and have-nots gets bigger and bigger and ordinarly people are left to fall by the wayside

Incorrect, it is fact that as the rich get richer the poorer get richer too. It is only in a society where social equality is espoused , such as communism, that the incentive to do better is withdrawn and all get poorer (apart from the pigs)

So what we get is an increasingly disenchanted population who will need to be controlled by stronger security and policing methods whiich will result in teh loss of freedoms.
That is fantasy. It is the non technology countries of the third world that has strong policing etc. Adsk Mugabe or a few of the Muslim countries in the middle east
So not only will much of the population have no economic freedom, their physical freedom will also be under threat.

From the fantasy world to the ridiculous

Labor is doing nothing to stop this either as they have gone so far to the right, the only real difference is that Labor have some comapsison and care for people whilst the Libs have almost none

I disagree. They are a party of Ideology and hate

The Liberal view of a level playing field for everyone to have an equal chance of success simply does not exist.

Incorrect, where is it not level?

All that your good interest rate numbers etc etc do is increase big buisness profits and returns to shareholders.

Incorrect, most vcompanies survive on loans. Interest hikes reduce profits and put many out of business

The Rich get Richer the Poor get Poorer

Incorrect, The rich get richer and so do we all as the hard working entrepreneur creates wealth for the country. Or exactly where does my buisness tax go?

Better trample on the Unions hey, as they stand up for the working man.

If only they did! They stand up for political ideology and hatred of anything not in the communist philosophy

Society is going down the toilet. No two ways about it.

Incorrect, Society has never had it so good in Australia

The conditions I have described above may actually produce (eventually) the fundamental conditions required for a Karl Marx type revelution.

You think after seeing the results of Marxism any sane person would even let it cross their minds?

Don't get me wrong _ I am not a Marxist/ Communist

And I'm not Frodo :rolleyes:

I like to think of myslef as a centre - right socialist.

You may think of yourself as you wish but your words speak otherwise

But people need at leat an even chance. Such a thing has never existed in the histroy of this country. Class divisions inherited from the British have been replaced by economic class divisions of globalisation.
I agree, everyone needs an equal chance. The right to choose how to spend their time and their money and the right to reap the rewards of that investment. Australia is actually a great place for giving people a fair go. I lived in the class society of UK and hated it. Australia has nothing even romotely like those class divisions...be thankful

Anyway -that's what I think. [/QUOTE

Shinboners

2 Nov 2001, 13:54

Sorry, got to do a bit of nitpicking here......

Originally posted by Jars458

So, how do you see the economy going when most businesses in order to meet shareholder demands to have increasing profit growth have to cut costs.

The problem here is that when you're writing about "meeting shareholder demands", I take it that you're talking about companies listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. The fact is that only a minority of Australian companies are listed companies. The vast majority of companies (and by far the largest employer) are in the small business sector....and yes, for these companies to survive, or at least keep the bankers happy so that the owners can keep the houses that they've mortgaged to finance the business, they need to make a profit.

The main way they do this is by cutting jobs and increasing technology to less labour intensive methods.

No dispute here, but remember that the use of technology has resulted in many consumer items....like your cars, fridges, computers, etc....being allowed to be manufactured at a cost that allows the vast majority of people to afford them.

If this continues more and more of the population will be squeezed out of the work force or will be in extremely low paid jobs

For the unskilled sector, this is most certainly true. And it is at this point where I disagree with the government. They should show more compassion towards unskilled workers by helping to guarantee employee entitlements when a business goes out of business or moves offshore. In the long term, most Australians will be in the service industry, but whilst we are in transition, they need to help the people left behind and who are too old to get trained for service orientated jobs.

Meanwhile any production that does occur goes on in Asia where the cost of labour is significantly lower because of lower/slave wages and in some countries child slavery.

To be fair to Asia, or China at least because that's what I have the most knowledge of, the situation is improving. Certainly the conditions now are a whole lot better than what they were ten years ago.

But labour costs will continue to stay low in China because the supply of workers far outstrips the demand.

Meanwhile the gap between the have and have-nots gets bigger and bigger and ordinarly people are left to fall by the wayside

A fault of the government with their ridiculous tax laws and GST related tax cuts that gave the money to the wrong people.

So what we get is an increasingly disenchanted population who will need to be controlled by stronger security and policing methods whiich will result in teh loss of freedoms.

So not only will much of the population have no economic freedom, their physical freedom will also be under threat.

That is a bit of an overreaction. I would seriously doubt that I'll ever see a violent revolution in Australia during my lifetime. We are not a people who have a culture of war and violence.

Labor is doing nothing to stop this either as they have gone so far to the right, the only real difference is that Labor have some comapsison and care for people whilst the Libs have almost none

No disagreement there as I've stated in my other post about the elimination of the small L Liberals from the Liberal Party.

The Liberal view of a level playing field for everyone to have an equal chance of success simply does not exist.

It's a very idealistic proposition to allow every one an equal chance of success, but the sheer nature of life means that no matter what laws we bring in, someone else will always have a better chance of success than someone else either due to better intelligence, wealth, connections, determination or whatever.

All that your good interest rate numbers etc etc do is increase big buisness profits and returns to shareholders.

It also allows small businesses the chance to make profits as well. By the way, do you have a superannuation fund? Those very same big businesses are making profits that will hopefully look after you in your retirement.

The Rich get Richer the Poor get Poorer

That has sadly been the trend over the past 30 years. Australia once had a large and vibrant middle class with a few wealthy and a few very poor. We can get a vibrant middle class again if they'd only fix the bloody tax system and INDEX the marginal tax rates.

Better trample on the Unions hey, as they stand up for the working man.

The Unions stand for themselves first and their members second. A side issue, but how many unionists have used the ACTU as a stepping stone towards parliament?

Society is going down the toilet. No two ways about it.

I disagree here. We live longer, we're healthier, we lead much softer lives compared to our parents and their parents. We have cheap food, we are allowed to express our opinions without being shot, and on the whole, our lives are much better than those who live in 90% of the world.

For all my cynicism, I'm pretty optimistic about this country and the opportunities it has. The only thing that bothers me is the heartlessness of the government, but on the whole, we have a pretty damn good lifestyle.

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 14:06

Originally posted by magpie_joffa

GIVE THIS MAN A THUCKING CIGAR, WELL SAID ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON.

Why not use your God given brain instead of just agreeing willy-nilly with any post that remotely agrees with your extremist communist views?

Shinboners

2 Nov 2001, 15:12

Originally posted by Jars458

All that your good interest rate numbers etc etc do is increase big buisness profits and returns to shareholders.

Oh, another thing. If lower interest rates automatically increased business profits and return to shareholders (how wonderful it would be if it was that simple), then how do you explain how blue chip companies (and each of these companies are amongst the 50 largest in Australia) like A.G.L., Lend Lease, Western Mining, and News Corporation have had lower profits when compared to the previous financial year? Interest rates only make up one part of a business's profitability.

The other thing is that lower interest rates mean lower mortgage rates for home buyers, although for recent entrants into the market, the lower rates has meant more people into the market, thus more competition and higher housing prices. But for those who have bought homes in the past five years, I don't think you'll find any of these people complaining about lower interest rates.

Solace

2 Nov 2001, 17:16

The greatest economy to ever exist in this world was in the early days of Islam in the middle east. Like it or not if you read deeply into the history books you will find that it was the only known time in human existance in which a society existed without poverty, without unemployment and literally without crime. You wont find the west reminding you of it, but it did exist.

It was based on a few very basic ideas.
2.5% tax rate
No interest, illegal
Fair trading
Being the best at what you do

A tax rate of 2.5% on both savings and earnings, this ensured people had no inclination to save money but were not punished for doing so. It was one of the very few things people were FORCED to obey. Refusal to pay a tax would see an army knocking on your door. If you take from society you must return at least something to it. 2.5% is nothing. 2.5% of the worlds wealth today could feed and clothe and maybe even provide shelter for every single person in this world. 2.5% of the money spent on armies could feed and clothe eveyone on this planet. that is a fact. It wouldnt create a shortage of money. It did the opposite. From this 2.5% that the government attained it provided food to the poor, medical aid to everyone, schooling libraries and even had an excess that they didnt know what to spend on, so they spent it on beautifying cities and building gigantic architectural monuments.

A tax rate of 2.5% ensures people spend, when people spend jobs are created, from jobs people leave poverty. To ensure that wealth contined to grow Interest was BANNED. illegal, crime.
The poor could not be enslaved by the rich as they are today, they would not spend most of their lives paying interest which only made them sink deeper into financial slavery to which 99% of the modern world belongs.

These 2 very important factors PLUS the high moral conduct of businessmen in fair trading and following the principle of "if youre going to do something, be the best at it" resulted in total prosperity. When people are rich, have all they need in life and are banned from exploiting others through interest crime vanishes.
It is recorded that in the 400 years after the prophets death 6 people had thier hands amputated for thieving. in 400 years.
And then when people started charging interest "if i give something its only fair i get something in return", which created poverty and thus taxes were needed to feed them etc etc into the hole the islamic world went.

You can say all you want as a politician about your knowledge of the econmoy, about interest rates etc etc etc.
But a few simple ideas, ones that are PROVEN to work that dont need "economic experts" or even politicians to maintain them could create the perfect economic socitey.
And it makes sense, Logically

For the record The same laws apply to Christianity and Hebrewism (can be found in thier books), but like muslims they no longer follow them.

RogerC

2 Nov 2001, 17:32

A lot of the detail of this argument is going way over my head, but at the risk of being savaged by Frodo I'm going to add my little bit.

Calling the Labor Party a party of ideology and hate is laying it on a bit thick. I don't see Whitlam, Keating or Hawke as hate-filled at all. The only one of those who comes close is Keating, and he reserved most of his vitriol for opposition members; only his funeral-director face kept him from widespread acceptance.

Take a closer look at Tony Abbott, or Peter Reith, or Phillip Ruddock, or Amanda Vanstone, or either Kemp. All have sacrificed compassion to right-wing ideology, and all are fully prepared to trample the innocent.

We can't draw any conclusions on unemployment figures, because the method of counting the unemployed keeps changing. The number of working hours per week required before being classified as employed keeps dropping. The requirements to be met to receive benefits keeps getting more austere. Whether you agree with these measures or not, the classification was a lot looser years ago, and if we used the same one now the official unemployment rate would be a lot higher. We just have more 'hidden' unemployed nowadays.

As far as I'm concerned the GST is simply an admission of defeat. If there was some way to force big business and high income earners to pay all the income tax they're supposed to (some do, many others find a way around it), there'd be no need for a consumption based tax. Of course the GST is unfair, that's no secret, but it does at least ensure a more reliable stream of money. You can thank corporate and rich-man's greed, along with a perennially toothless legal set-up, for it.

Australia's biggest problem is that we've always been a primary producer, and lately we've been encountering a lot of competition for our primary products. We have a few cosy trade arrangements, a proportion of which don't work in our favour. And the call went out years ago for us to develop niche technology industries to replace our shrinking exports. One thing we have (or had, I suppose) is brains - ground breaking research, high level graduates, techological discoveries to rank with the world's best. I was hearing that sort of talk 20 years ago, and so far little if anything has been done to capitalise on it. In fact this current Coalition government seems hell-bent on breaking down the effectiveness of our Universities. Stigmatising them as irrelevant leftist money wasters misses the point; they do produce, in their way, and I'm buggered if I know what else we've got going for us.

We don't live in the fifties any more, and we can't pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist, as Howard seems to want to. Lecturing Indonesia is plain stupid. Turning the refugee question into a pretext for stigmatising foreigners is backward. Strutting around as if we really are a world military force makes us look like the mouse that roared.

Joe Mama

2 Nov 2001, 20:12

Magpie_Joffa and Jars458, you're comments came straight from the heart, and I congratulate you for putting that heartless right of mussolini, snivelling, Peter (smirking git) Costello admiring, liberal party stooge Frodo put in his place.

Don't vote for the Liberals this election, John Howard hasn't committed himself to serve out his third term in its entireity (thank christ, the manipulator of people's worst predujices:) , but you'll get Peter Costello taking his place, which is better in some ways, but a lot worse in others (His smirk makes my skin crawl, but I can't understand why his brother, Tim is such a nice man and he's a little arsehole) but that's another story.

Joe Mama

2 Nov 2001, 20:16

I'm sorry that :) was meant to be a :mad: , because I hate how he's (John Howard's) bringing out the worst in people and using the events of September 11, just to get himself elected.

SHAME SHAME SHAME (Derryn Hinch)

Frodo

2 Nov 2001, 23:27

Originally posted by Wayde Petersen
Magpie_Joffa and Jars458, you're comments came straight from the heart, and I congratulate you for putting that heartless right of mussolini, snivelling, Peter (smirking git) Costello admiring, liberal party stooge Frodo put in his place.

LOL :D :D :D

Cornellia

3 Nov 2001, 02:56

Originally posted by Wayde Petersen
[B liberal party stooge Frodo put in his place.[/B]

Are you saying there are 4 stooges, how come only 3 were on telly?

1AD

5 Nov 2001, 09:30

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frodo
[B]

I IF Liberals sold off Telstra then they have clearly stated that the country areas would be guaranteed to be looked after beforehand. So don't give me that rural crap.

If they are not looked after now when the Government have the last say with the 51% Why the hell would they listen when 100% liable to the sharholders?

NEVER EVER vote for the Labor party ;)

Dogs_R_Us

6 Nov 2001, 15:21

Can someone tell me how it is inhumane to try to stop people from coming here in unseaworthy over-crowded vessels, at will? Like, you might drown or sink or get eaten by sharks, but hey, if you make it we'll take you. How does that work?

The people smugglers get richer and richer, the boat owners take more and more chances and overload even more to keep up with the demand, the tragedies recur.

It was a shocking and sad event when that boat went down (and it may not have been the first), but if such a means of transport wasn't available it wouldn't have happened. NOT - if we were more humane it wouldn't have happened. Humanity does not keep leaky old boats afloat.

I have Muslim friends. I am angered by the blatant hate attitudes that have been let loose by the combination of restricting asylum seekers and Sept. 11.

The processing of refugees has to be speeded up, with family reunion having top priority.

kirky

6 Nov 2001, 20:22

Well, I have been following politics since the mid-70's (the Whitlam dismissal started my interest when I was a high school) and I have to say, Howard does not deserve another term and here is why:-

The absolutely disgrace "Tampa" issue where he decided after letting 200 boats in to turn this one around. He is playing with peoples prejudices and deserves to be thrown out and one would hope even lose his seat of Bennelong.

The terrorist attacks - it made no difference whether Liberal or Labor was the government. Either one would have backed our allies, the US and the UK, to the hilt.

John Howard deserves no respect and one hopes enough people wake up to the fact what has he offered this election. Selective targeting of tax payersfunds - baby bonus, superannuation for the top 5%. Where is the equality he continually talks about, its just that words.

I don't have kids or earn over $85k and I think what issues will persuade me and it comes down to this - at least one party offers a vision (true they may not be able to deliver all of it but at least they are trying to offer something and not pray on peoples fears and prejudices) and whose advertising has at least been positive not negative (or like a funeral ad - what the hell is with this black and white **** - I thought my TV was playing up!)

And wake up to those that think the Government controls interest rates - the US does. And when has the dollar been below 50c - yes only during the reign of a coalition government. The nations gross debt is worse than ever but of course we did reduce the debt by $50b/$60b (which was achieved by selling Telstra).

Whilst I may not vote Labor, I certainly know the Libs won't be getting my vote. The only vision the Libs see is in the rear vision mirror - always looking backwards, never looking forwards.

RogerC

6 Nov 2001, 21:58

Debate's been strangled, not only in this election but for quite some time now. The Liberal Party no longer bother looking at actual figures to back their claims as excellent economic managers. In fact, the only real financial talk coming from them (beyond the bribes they are selectively sending out), is the old mantra about Beazley's black hole. I remember that one being trotted out shortly after they won power in 1996, some of the costing being questioned (whereupon it was promptly dropped) and then the resurgence of the myth in the last election and now this year. It's just a cliche, and not even accurate.

The question keeps being asked of Beazley "How are you going to fund these promises?" Good question; but why does no-one bother to ask Peter Costello "Where did all the money go?" All this world's-best economic management (read: selling off our assets), and nothing to show for it? What happened? Surely losing your surplus so quickly is a bit careless, to say the least.

Anyway, now the war and the refugee crisis are off the front pages (here's a prime piece of hypocrisy - Howard lambasts Beazley for making political mileage out of the sunken refugee boat, and then what pops up in the Liberal Party ads? Lo and behold, the Liberal Party making political mileage out of Beazley making political mileage out of the sunken refugee boat!) we all have to concentrate on national issues. And as soon as we do the polls revert to the level they were before the crises.

It'll be close. I'd rather Howard lost, if only because his only campaign promise seems to be to "see us through these difficult times" I don't know how difficult they're actually going to be for this country, but once they're over, what does he do then? Make up policy on the run? Put his feet up? Talk about Beazley's black hole for two more years?

Darky

6 Nov 2001, 22:09

Originally posted by RogerC
.

It'll be close. I'd rather Howard lost, if only because his only campaign promise seems to be to "see us through these difficult times" I don't know how difficult they're actually going to be for this country, but once they're over, what does he do then? Make up policy on the run? Put his feet up? Talk about Beazley's black hole for two more years?

The radio campaign on Beazley vs Howard in Melboune (commercial stations at least) has been that a vote for Howard is an increase in the GST.

Never has any advertising disgusted me as much, as this falsehood.

Surely a vote for Beazley is more likely to result in a GST increase, seeing that a state-wide parliamentary approval is required, and 5 of the 6 states are Labor-run?

Which of the 5 Labor-run states (SA pending an election but Labor winning in polls) would make out to help Howard in a GST increase?

magpie_joffa

6 Nov 2001, 22:18

Originally posted by Darky

The radio campaign on Beazley vs Howard in Melboune (commercial stations at least) has been that a vote for Howard is an increase in the GST.

Never has any advertising disgusted me as much, as this falsehood.

Surely a vote for Beazley is more likely to result in a GST increase, seeing that a state-wide parliamentary is required, and 5 of the 6 states are Labor-run?

Which of the 5 Labor-run states (SA pending an election but Labor winning in polls) would make out to help Howard in a GST increase?

Sorry darky

The liars in this campaign are the liberals they are desperate mate and to suggest a labor party will increase the gst is insane and stupid the labor party will do more for the struggling australian than what any liberal party would ever do.

I suggest darky you take your liberal bias to the crap house for that is where it belongs.

The libs are turning out to be a very dangerous monster economically and socially.

These pack of self serving b.a.s.t.a.r..d.s must not be allowed to be re elected.

Darky

6 Nov 2001, 22:33

Originally posted by magpie_joffa

Sorry darky

The liars in this campaign are the liberals they are desperate mate and to suggest a labor party will increase the gst is insane and stupid the labor party will do more for the struggling australian than what any liberal party would ever do.

I suggest darky you take your liberal bias to the crap house for that is where it belongs.

The libs are turning out to be a very dangerous monster economically and socially.

These pack of self serving b.a.s.t.a.r..d.s must not be allowed to be re elected.

And your evidence is where?

Where is your evidence that a Labor vote will prevent a GST increase? A statewide majority is required to increase it, and 5 out of 6 Labor states are more likely to increase a Labor GST than a Liberal one, especially when Beazley backs 97% of the GSt, and the states are the primary benificiaries.

What is a rollback? Take GST off tampons and nappies? How will that help the economy?

Personally, I reckon it should be 10% off EVERYTHING... and it's not a biased opinion because I don't vote. That'd have teething problems, as the GST has had, but had it been implemented in 1901 when self-governance started, or at any point since, we would think nothing of a flat 10% tax.

I don't particularly like John Howard any more than any other pollie (Natahsa's boosies aside), but I'd vote for him just to stop the Union Party winning.

Yassar Arafat

7 Nov 2001, 13:00

That's right Darky. You have worked out that the Losers party always talks crap and now they are mounting a GST scare campaign b/c they are bereft of any ideas fo their own.

The Libs would not increase the GST rate b/c they know such a move would be political suicide. Only Labor are that dumb and they will need to do it to fill Beazley's black hole (and I am not talking about his wife Ms. Anus).

Beazley has even adopted Howard's refugee policy so if they Loser party supporters knock Howard theya re in fact spitting in their own faces as well!

No wonder they are known as LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!

eastaugh36

7 Nov 2001, 13:44

Originally posted by magpie_joffa
Howard your a fraud a biggot and a redneck racist.

Tell me if the events that occured on 11th sept had not have occured would we be going to an election next weekend well let me tell you if the aweful attack on america did not occur there is no way known would we be going to the polls.

Howard the gutless worm is riding on the back of a great disaster which has affected so many people throughout the world, good on ya redneck you are so transparent.

To get votes he has sided with all the racist deadbeat scum in our society re the tampa boat people, oh your a caring man little john,

In bed with pauline hanson you ****.

We were a caring nation once but you ended that, and for those who want to see what great harm this government is doing watch sbs tomorrow night and see how refugee children with permission to stay here for 3 years only, they live alone with out any knowledge of knowing if any relatives are alive or not.

The new refugee policies will probably never allow there parants to come and reside in australia , the government believes when afghanistan is returned back to normal these children must go back home umm excuse me to what???

gee i wonder if a boat load of germans seeking refugee status would ever be turned away or dutch or or whatever, oh sorry i forgot they wouldnt be turned away simply because they are white and most probably not muslim.

And to those poor white australians with a mentality of a 5 cent piece who believe they have a right to decide who lives here because they were born here, you are self centred and very very nasty little people you have no right to call your selves australians you are bigots and hypocrites just like our prime minister you are so transparent a nice place in hell waits for you you simplistic non caring bastards.

SHAME HOWARD SHAME.

so what do you think he should have done ? Opened the door to anyone from any other bloody country to just come here ? We have enough unemployment problems as it is, we have a shortage of hospital beds for Australians, etc etc. We dont need anymore immigrants.They are the reasons why John Howard is back in with a chance in this election. 6 months ago he had little hope but now after how well he handled the boat people and the terrorist attacks, the majority of people in Australia will vote for him and I am one of the majority !!!!!!!

Pessimistic

7 Nov 2001, 14:01

Originally posted by Darky

What is a rollback? Take GST off tampons and nappies? How will that help the economy?

So will the election come to be known as the Tampa v Tampons election ?

Jars458

7 Nov 2001, 14:07

Originally posted by Shinboners

Oh, another thing. If lower interest rates automatically increased business profits and return to shareholders (how wonderful it would be if it was that simple), then how do you explain how blue chip companies (and each of these companies are amongst the 50 largest in Australia) like A.G.L., Lend Lease, Western Mining, and News Corporation have had lower profits when compared to the previous financial year? Interest rates only make up one part of a business's profitability.

The other thing is that lower interest rates mean lower mortgage rates for home buyers, although for recent entrants into the market, the lower rates has meant more people into the market, thus more competition and higher housing prices. But for those who have bought homes in the past five years, I don't think you'll find any of these people complaining about lower interest rates.

Shinners

When I said etc etc etc I meant all the other so caled good economic figures as well

Clearly there is no one on one direct corelation between interest rates and profits. I have an economics degree and I learnt at leat that much (though probably not much more)

I agree with most of what you siad in reply to my post which was a bit of a big picture look at where the world might be going in the next hundred years if current trends continue.

kirky

7 Nov 2001, 20:13

To all those without an economics background or understanding but believe it or not but immigration actually creates jobs and stimulates the economy. But lets not overlook the one major factor here which everyone convenient forgets about - the refugees.

In the past 5 and a half years, approx 11,000 refugees have been admitted into the country therefore why did one boat get turnaround in August this year. Oh yes, an election on the horizon. Reality check, Liberal supporters, this is a dangerous little man who has contempt for our society of racial tolerance.

Then what happens in todays early news, Howard states "the possibility of terrorists on the refugees boats". When is he going to stop the scaremongering!!! When need leadership, this is not leadership, it is playing on everyones fears.

Black holes, yes and where did the windfall go from the GST and the budget surpluses, down the proverbial drain and to various self interest groups. Economic managers, they too have no credibility.

Due to their lack of vision for the future, all they have run is a totally negative campaign and I for one will not support a party that is bereft of ideas.

magpie_joffa

7 Nov 2001, 22:30

Originally posted by eastaugh36

so what do you think he should have done ? Opened the door to anyone from any other bloody country to just come here ? We have enough unemployment problems as it is, we have a shortage of hospital beds for Australians, etc etc. We dont need anymore immigrants.They are the reasons why John Howard is back in with a chance in this election. 6 months ago he had little hope but now after how well he handled the boat people and the terrorist attacks, the majority of people in Australia will vote for him and I am one of the majority !!!!!!!

You are typical of the current uncaring redneck australian scum that exist today.

Thank ur lucky stars you were born here and not some war torn poverty stricken country.

Have some compassion for your fellow human being you moron.

London Dave

7 Nov 2001, 22:42

Easty, how is it exactly that refugees cause the shortage of hospital beds in Australia you describe...do they jump straight off the boat and into hospital, or maybe it might be something to do with the level of investment in health services. I'd appreciate your further thoughts on the matter.

I think I've made this point in previous posts, but for the benefit of Easty, everyone in Oz is an immigrant, its just a matter of your place in the queue. The people who came in from Soth East Asia in the 70's copped exactly the same flak as the current crop are doing.(from certain quarters). On the whole, I think those people, and their children, have 'paid their way' if you want to put it that way, and are as good an 'Australian' as the next person. Go back another 40 or 50 years, and you have the influx of european immigrants. Same story repeating itself me thinks.

magpie_joffa

7 Nov 2001, 22:46

Originally posted by London Dave
Easty, how is it exactly that refugees cause the shortage of hospital beds in Australia you describe...do they jump straight off the boat and into hospital, or maybe it might be something to do with the level of investment in health services. I'd appreciate your further thoughts on the matter.

I think I've made this point in previous posts, but for the benefit of Easty, everyone in Oz is an immigrant, its just a matter of your place in the queue. The people who came in from Soth East Asia in the 70's copped exactly the same flak as the current crop are doing.(from certain quarters). On the whole, I think those people, and their children, have 'paid their way' if you want to put it that way, and are as good an 'Australian' as the next person. Go back another 40 or 50 years, and you have the influx of european immigrants. Same story repeating itself me thinks.

ha ha good on ya dave

how u been mate, i will never forget when you were here having a drink and a laugh and talkin collingwood, hope u are well mate
regards
joffa

7 Nov 2001, 22:52

Originally posted by eastaugh36

how well he handled the boat people

Well done John Howard.....he did so well making Australia the laughing stock of the world....yep jumping onto Norweigen territory...illegal, but racist unhumane tools like you think he did a great job :rolleyes:

London Dave

8 Nov 2001, 03:02

Hey Joffa, how we going mate. I'm doing OK at the mo, days getting shorter and aint seeing much daylight at present. Just been working mostly, and watching Newcastle and Millwall starring. Hope you and emma are doing fine, staying out of trouble and getting ready for a big year next season. If we hit the finals mate, I'm back in town, and we'll be drinking a lot more than a slab of vic! Look after yourself mate!

BUBBALOUIS

8 Nov 2001, 07:13

is this what you think strong leadership from Johnny is? Get tough on 200 boat people, ignore our aged care and keep the incompetent Bronwyn Bishop in the portfolio 'coz your stubborn ... oops i mean tough.lol

Dear John: A grieving daughter's plea for the elderly

By SEAMUS BRADLEY
Thursday 8 November 2001

The daughter of a 91-year-old woman who died after allegedly being knocked over at a Victorian nursing home has spent her inheritance on a full-page advertisement in The Age today in a bid to get the major political parties to tackle "the crisis in aged care".

In the advertisement, Ms Val Wilkinson, 54, is calling on "every Australian voter to put last any politician who refuses to join an immediate bipartisan commitment to properly care for Australia's" elderly.

She said she was spending "tens of thousands of dollars" just days before the federal election because she wouldn't be able to "live with myself if I don't do everything to make sure everyone else's loved ones are safe".

Ms Wilkinson's mother Mary Wilkinson died on Wednesday last week, six days after suffering brain damage in an alleged incident involving a male resident with dementia at Bendigo's Bethlehem Home for the Aged. She said she had no political affiliations and was "acting completely independently" in taking out the advertisement.

"The only support I have is from my sister and my intellectually disabled brother," she said.

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The advertisement, headed "A letter to the Prime Minister of Australia from Mary's Daughter", features several photographs taken by Ms Wilkinson of her injured and dying mother. It calls on the political leaders to cooperate fully with each other and pledge to ensure that all Australia's elderly get the "care, protection and dignified departure they each deserve".

Ms Wilkinson, who lives in Bendigo, said she visited her mother, a dementia sufferer, "six days out of seven" for hours at a time after her mother was admitted in 1999.

"Mum had to sell her little weatherboard home when she developed dementia and needed special care. My share will barely cover the cost of one page (in the newspaper)," she said. Ms Wilkinson said her mother would probably be "cross" if she knew how the money was being spent. "It came to me prematurely, accompanied by my mother's terrified moans of pain."

In the Channel Nine news story about the death of Mary Wilkinson that aired on Friday, Prime Minister John Howard said: "Every time an incident like that occurs, it's unreasonable to automatically turn around and say that's the fault of an individual."

In her "Dear John" advertisement, Ms Wilkinson writes: "My frail, 91-year-old mother's death from brain injuries sustained in one of Australia's federally accredited aged care institutions is not merely an `incident' John ... (it is) and will be forever, a national disgrace."

Ms Wilkinson has dubbed her campaign for more resources for aged care her personal war on terror - "the end of terror for elderly people". She warned that everyone in Australia was getting older and potentially faced living out the final years of their lives in a nursing home.

She did not blame the man who knocked her mother over and said he and his family were suffering too.

Mr Eric Noel, a spokesman for Mercy Health and Aged Care, which runs Bendigo's Bethlehem Home for the Aged, said the company was reviewing all internal procedures in relation to the dementia ward and was cooperating fully with an investigation by the State Coroner.

A spokesman for the Prime Minister declined to comment on the advertisement.

- with DARREN GRAY

Yassar Arafat

8 Nov 2001, 10:34

What a stupid article and advertisement.

My mother is in a nursing home with dementia. I have seen what nursing homes are like. If someone makes up thier mind to attack another patient there is little that can be done.

If the person who attacked had a pre-disposition for violence he shold have been in an different nursing home. They moved my mother in the days when her dementia made her aggressive.

And in the end for god's sake, her mother was 91 years old and had dementia. She was already dead. Notwithstanding the violent act, the attacker did that lady's mother a favour. She wasnt alive she only existed.

That is why the say dementia (In my mum's case Alzheimers and she is only 74) is a disease where the person dies twice.

No amount of govt funding could prevent what happened so it is an outrageous claim by this woman who is obviously acting irrationally at the moment due to the greiving process.

Labor had nursing homes and hospitals under their care for 3 years and ran them into the ground. Its a bit rich to knock the govt for allegedly continuing what Labor did.

You are all just silly little lefty lambs arent you?

BUBBALOUIS

8 Nov 2001, 10:42

Originally posted by Yassar Arafat
What a stupid article and advertisement.

My mother is in a nursing home with dementia. I have seen what nursing homes are like. If someone makes up thier mind to attack another patient there is little that can be done.

If the person who attacked had a pre-disposition for violence he shold have been in an different nursing home. They moved my mother in the days when her dementia made her aggressive.

And in the end for god's sake, her mother was 91 years old and had dementia. She was already dead. Notwithstanding the violent act, the attacker did that lady's mother a favour. She wasnt alive she only existed.

That is why the say dementia (In my mum's case Alzheimers and she is only 74) is a disease where the person dies twice.

No amount of govt funding could prevent what happened so it is an outrageous claim by this woman who is obviously acting irrationally at the moment due to the greiving process.

Labor had nursing homes and hospitals under their care for 3 years and ran them into the ground. Its a bit rich to knock the govt for allegedly continuing what Labor did.

You are all just silly little lefty lambs arent you?

Mr Arafat, im sorry about your mum, but i too know people with dimentia (not my mum admittedly, but people close) and whilst they are living i would be devastated if the care given is SUBSTANDARD .... why do we have to be leftist lambs to worry about aged care? Why is it that a major contributor to the Liberal Party and operator of aged care homes has now swapped his support to Labor? Telling the coalition to 'get stuffed' in the process? Bronwyn Bishop has stuffed up every portfolio shes been given, Howard has been to scared to dump her ....

Solace

8 Nov 2001, 10:46

nursing homes are just another convenience to society
so people dont have to cope with their own responsibilites

if your mother died then why wasnt she at home being cared by you, didnt she mean enough, was it too much of a hassle. I think she knows its most likely her own selfishness that resulted in this, and she is just trying to find a way to bury the guilt.

Yassar Arafat

8 Nov 2001, 10:53

Originally posted by Solace
nursing homes are just another convenience to society
so people dont have to cope with their own responsibilites

if your mother died then why wasnt she at home being cared by you, didnt she mean enough, was it too much of a hassle. I think she knows its most likely her own selfishness that resulted in this, and she is just trying to find a way to bury the guilt.

In fact I and my wife cared for my mum for seven years before she was placed in a nursing hoime. I bahted her every day when she becaome incapable of doing it herself, I wiped her bottom when she forgot about personal hygiene, I fed her when she forgot how to do it, my wife cleaned up the poo when my mother sometimes got up in the middle of the night and wouldnt know where the toilet was and thought it was in the passage, I put up with her consant tirades against me when she imagined we were persecuting her, I tried to explian to her 4000 times this was her home and there wasnt another one next door where she thought her belongings were...

Then we had a baby and I fought with her to let our child go as we neede to change her while she maintianed the child was hers etc etc etc etc etc etc

So what is your point fcukwit? Are you saying I didnt do enough? Do you know what it is like having to care for people you love 24 hours a day with no respite? Maybe that is whh eventually she had to go to a nursing home.

BUBBALOUIS

8 Nov 2001, 10:59

Yassar Arafat

8 Nov 2001, 11:01

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS

Of all the statements ive ever read on bigfooty, this has got to be the most hideous ....... how dare you judge other people .... my auntie has just come out of a coma after 3 months, she requires specialized 24 hour care, my cousins are distraught at the prospect of putting her in a nursing home but know its best for her, they have paid taxes and been in private health all there lifes but even if they didnt, i personally dont want to live in a society where downright stupid views like yours are prevalant ....

You are a disgrace ...... i hope you never need a helping hand

Thank you for your post Bubba. We may not agree on a lot of things, but as you have noted the post by Solace was dispicable.

BUBBALOUIS

8 Nov 2001, 11:07

Originally posted by Yassar Arafat

Thank you for your post Bubba. We may not agree on a lot of things, but as you have noted the post by Solace was dispicable.

no worries yassar, i respect differing opinions, and hopefully our discusions are friendly bantering on different viewpoints .... ... thats one thing, solace remarks are just moronic no matter which side of the political fence you sit

Pessimistic

8 Nov 2001, 11:47

I am sorry if I am wrong, but mr arafat has too much 'first hand' knowledge of any subject which gets raised in relation to the election. I thought I smelled a rat, but now It's a rat's nest.

Yassar Arafat

8 Nov 2001, 12:24

Well Pessimistic

You should be sorry.

My mother is presently in Carinya Private Nursing Home, Golk Links Road Frankston North.

I wont tell you which house she is in but she has been in Gardenia and moved at one stage to Hibiscus.

I dont know of what other matters you speak of....my religion perhaps?

We have the ramazan period coming up which lasts for 30 days at the end of whch we have the Bayram celebration. 70 days after this comes teh Kurban Baryam celebration whjich is the time when teh pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca takes place for those who are interested. So I think I know a little more about it than you becasue I have lived it all my life.

My qualifications.....in actual fact I started off diong 1st year medicine failed second year transferred to Scince course where I did Physiology and Biochemistry plus what was then known as Computer Science in second year and Biochem and Computer Science in third year and then did Biochem honours in 4th year.

B/C of the limited oppotunities for academics as already stated I actually worked for two years as a computer systems analyst before I got into Melbourne Law as a mature age student.

I dont know anything about you of course but these are things about me that are true.

It is pretty weak to attack me personally instead of my arguments but I suppose that is what they teach them in school these days...after all Mad Mary Delahunty is in charge isnt she?

Pessimistic

8 Nov 2001, 12:53

Ok so I am sorry.
I, like a lot of posters prefer not to 'back up' our arguments with our 'prowess' as the arguments need to appeal on their own. I note that nobody seems to actually change their view here (although the invitation to vote for cleary in the senate made me think)

It is better not to reveal too much of yourselk although I think you might have the wrong impression of me. Not all 'socialists' are young you know.

Anyway I predict a labour victory and the political cycle will have forn full circle back to early 1980's when all power was labour's

1AD

8 Nov 2001, 13:09

Originally posted by Yassar Arafat
Well Pessimistic

It is pretty weak to attack me personally instead of my arguments ?

Doesn't stop you though does it..fat...fcuckwit...sucking off Keating etc

Mr "I've got a Bachelor of everthing", maybe you should practice what you preach.

eastaugh36

8 Nov 2001, 13:14

Originally posted by QT

Well done John Howard.....he did so well making Australia the laughing stock of the world....yep jumping onto Norweigen territory...illegal, but racist unhumane tools like you think he did a great job :rolleyes:

dont you read papers ? the opinion polls said it all. The majority of australians said he did the right thing, face it ! you are in the minority

eastaugh36

8 Nov 2001, 13:15

Originally posted by magpie_joffa

You are typical of the current uncaring redneck australian scum that exist today.

Thank ur lucky stars you were born here and not some war torn poverty stricken country.

Have some compassion for your fellow human being you moron.

i do have compassion, but the truth is there are too many immigrants coming in. It is ridiculous ! Australia is for australians !

Jars458

8 Nov 2001, 13:41

Originally posted by eastaugh36

i do have compassion, but the truth is there are too many immigrants coming in. It is ridiculous ! Australia is for australians !

So only Aboriginees can stay here hey and the rest of us can leave

As long as you are not on my boat you little git.

Bee

8 Nov 2001, 13:51

Originally posted by eastaugh36

i do have compassion, but the truth is there are too many immigrants coming in. It is ridiculous ! Australia is for australians !

Are you xenophobic, Easty?

Yassar Arafat

8 Nov 2001, 13:56

Originally posted by 1AD

Doesn't stop you though does it..fat...fcuckwit...sucking off Keating etc

Mr "I've got a Bachelor of everthing", maybe you should practice what you preach.

I never claimed to Bachelor of everything, only of Science (honours) and Laws.

And I knock over the argument and then I just state a fact. Beazley is a fat ball of wind. Keating and his cronies were fcukwits I dont recall saying anyone was sucking him off though.

I only mentioned my qualifications b/c my view on academia and the knowledge spaghetti was questioned for authenticity.

Now Mr (or Ms) 1AD what qualifications do you have to support your arguments?

Frodo

8 Nov 2001, 14:02

Originally posted by eastaugh36

i do have compassion, but the truth is there are too many immigrants coming in. It is ridiculous ! Australia is for australians !

I agree that Australia is for Australians...but what are Australians? Basically a lot of people whi migrated here, mainly from Europe but in recent years from all over the world.

What I believe we have created , though, is an Australian culture and we need to be very careful about peserving that culture or having it change in a direction we approve of.

One of the things I have realised since Sept 11th is that many people clearly migrate for IMO wrong reasons wrt the country they migrate to.
I believe that a person coming to Australia should want to become an Australian and whilst not forgetting their roots they should, after a period of say three years, give up their former citizenship and take on Australian citizenship or return to their country of origin. I find it quite appalling to see UK citizens brandishing Afghanistan flags and wanting to fight against UK soldiers. I would like to think that if we were ever in a war that no Australian would even think of fighting against Australian troops. Some people just want to come here because the standard of living is better but that is all take and no give. I believe a commitment to Australia is necessary from each immigrant and without that commitment there should be no entry.

BUBBALOUIS

8 Nov 2001, 14:06

Originally posted by Frodo

I agree that Australia is for Australians...but what are Australians? Basically a lot of people whi migrated here, mainly from Europe but in recent years from all over the world.

What I believe we have created , though, is an Australian culture and we need to be very careful about peserving that culture or having it change in a direction we approve of.

One of the things I have realised since Sept 11th is that many people clearly migrate for IMO wrong reasons wrt the country they migrate to.
I believe that a person coming to Australia should want to become an Australian and whilst not forgetting their roots they should, after a period of say three years, give up their former citizenship and take on Australian citizenship or return to their country of origin. I find it quite appalling to see UK citizens brandishing Afghanistan flags and wanting to fight against UK soldiers. I would like to think that if we were ever in a war that no Australian would even think of fighting against Australian troops. Some people just want to come here because the standard of living is better but that is all take and no give. I believe a commitment to Australia is necessary from each immigrant and without that commitment there should be no entry.

for a change, no arguments there Frodo, but does your thoughts include all those with British passports/citizenship living in Australia? And lets put this into perspective when the Gov quotes illegal immigrant numbers did you know that the vast majority of illegals in Australia are actually NZ'rs and British overstaying there visas? Should we round them up, arrest them and ship them to Nauru?