View Full Version : Let's all get behind Greg Tivendale ;)
madtiger2005
30 Nov 2005, 10:48
I've always been a fan of Tivva. He looked promising when he first came over in he late 90s and had a very good year in 2001. I don't care what anyone says. He has the best natural kicking foot in our team maybe apart from Newman. He also can kick pretty adequately on his right foot. I've seen him kick accurate 50m kicks on his right foot during several games. He has a much much much better right foot than Scott Lucas does and he does use it when he can't use his left. He shows a bit of dash and occasionally shows his class. How many of our players were excellent during the period 2002-2004? Not many. The poor Frawley game plan was confusing, congesting, unorganised and was pretty much designed to put the ball carrier under pressure, give him no options to kick to and be forced to kick the ball to a 50-50 contest or even turn it over. It killed the players confidence and it would make them do mistakes under no pressure also. As people here are saying, if you watch older games and see how good a player he can be, it's no surprise that he has been retained. Many of my mates at work think he's a decent player also. It disappoints me when I go to a game and when I get home, I see posts on here saying Tivendale made 10 turnovers etc lol.
When I was at the game I could see maybe 2 turnovers at most and I have very good eyesight. Another thing, alot of the time those turnovers are caused by our team not providing any good options to kick to. Other times I guess it's just the memories of Frawley may cause a miskick sometimes, but not often though. I guess many of our fans know how good a kick he really is and during the Frawley years he was the one to give the ball to in defence and the team would rely on him alot with his kicking, but as I said above it's not easy playing that position in a Frawley coached team and it will cause you to have no good options and possibly turn the ball over. Tivendales only major weakness is his decision making in crowded situations. He tends to run into a tackle, but he has time to work on that part of his game. But he really should be played away from the packs and on a Left half forward flank. With a bit of space his kicking to the forwards (either short stab passing or long kick to the goal square) would be deadly and his long kicking for goals will be more than handy. All he needs is to gain the confidence and he will be very valuable ;)
I remember the Kangaroos game when Tivva ran into trouble after playing on at CHF. It was a silly move, but our forward structure was the blame. There were about 20 people in the forward 50m arc and no players had space to lead and it was very crowded for a big mark. I say to his knockers, take off your beer goggles and put on some new specs and look at the complete picture when you watch the game and not just the individual ;). We should be supporting him and wanting him to play to his capacity because then we will be cheering him and saying he is an important part of the team and we want him to perform. He may have to play 5 great games in a row to turn his knockers and I hope he can do it. Go Tivva :D
turtle27
30 Nov 2005, 10:53
Happy to MT, still believe he has a lot to offer if used correctly
MartinLutherWallace
30 Nov 2005, 12:03
I'll get behind him....to push the ******** out the door.
LMAO@ MT offering the bloke a reach 'round as well.
Darth_Tiger
30 Nov 2005, 12:42
im with you mt. his problem is above his shoulders. he needs to stop worrying about what other people think and just play the game. the way i see it he has two options in 2006.
1. play his natural game and not worry about what the fans think of him making a mistake - if he does this he still might have a horrible year and be delisted or more likely he will play well, gain confidence and be an important part of the team.
2. worry about making mistakes and definitely play crap and be delisted.
might as well not worry tivva if you are reading this. you play better when you dont imho.
its up to him i reckon if he gets his head straight he will be a very dangerous player.
madtiger2005
30 Nov 2005, 13:11
You're a fool Martin a real fool ;)
He fits Wallace's gameplan perfectly, he should be thriving under it so hopefully this year he will get back to the standard we saw from him a few years ago. Personally I'd like to see him moved up the ground a bit more, not having to worry about the defensive side of his game as much and giving himself a bit more room. Going to have to be a big year from him as well, we have a lot of young blokes who play a similar type game coming through so there will be plenty of competition for his spot.
White Czar
30 Nov 2005, 13:41
Tivendale = poor.
lucas_hsv
30 Nov 2005, 13:42
Heres to hoping Tivva does a Joel Bowden type turn around!
Truetiger
30 Nov 2005, 13:57
Oh Madtiger i will get right behind Tivendale alright Put my hands on his back and push him down the stairs. :thumbsu:
madtiger2005
30 Nov 2005, 14:36
what stairs? ;). White Czar read the thread again. You've given your reply no thought
Tivendale = dumb.
Problem is that he knows that the coaches want him to run with ball. But he can't figure out exactly when he should stop running and kick it.
More often than not he runs to far and puts himself under pressure. Bit to late to kick it when you have run too far.
He needs a little earpiece to the coaches' box "not yet, wait for it, NOW TIV".
Hopefully the extra year will help him. Also as more and more guys play like him he will be happier. Everyone will be running into dead ends but there will always be someone like JON to give the extra handball too ... won't be exposed as much as he is now.
Darth_Tiger
30 Nov 2005, 15:16
greg miller said some players will be put back in thier natural positions. I am hoping that means danny jackson to the hbf or bp and tiv to the hff or wing.
BalmyArmy
30 Nov 2005, 15:18
Tivendale, one sided dud.
Cant stand him. He's from the last era of Tigers. We now recruit players with speed, AND skill.
madtiger2005
30 Nov 2005, 15:24
Weaver said
'Problem is that he knows that the coaches want him to run with ball. But he can't figure out exactly when he should stop running and kick it.
More often than not he runs to far and puts himself under pressure. Bit to late to kick it when you have run too far.'
Think about why he does this ;). So often over the last 4 years he has no options to kick to. It is usually a crowded forward line with all players manned. I have explained this at the start of this thread
Tivendale = dumb.
Problem is that he knows that the coaches want him to run with ball. But he can't figure out exactly when he should stop running and kick it.
More often than not he runs to far and puts himself under pressure. Bit to late to kick it when you have run too far.
He needs a little earpiece to the coaches' box "not yet, wait for it, NOW TIV".
Hopefully the extra year will help him. Also as more and more guys play like him he will be happier. Everyone will be running into dead ends but there will always be someone like JON to give the extra handball too ... won't be exposed as much as he is now.
Hit the nail on the head Weaver.The blokes I go to the footy with are of the opinion that the longer he holds the ball the more likely he is to stuff it up.I'm sure a smart mathematician would be able to devise some formula which explains it better. X (inverse)Y=turnover. or something :)
early in his career he got rid of the pill alot quicker than he does now and ussually to the right option and with the right weight on it.
Fiona suffered the same 'disease'
Apart from that i wish he'd stop trying to kick grass cutters when a well weighted normal delivery would suffice.Without sounding like a spoil sport I can't see much upside for Tivva.The sooner Meyer,O-N or whoever puts pressure on his position in the seniors, the better for the RFC.
Same goes for Chaff.
Harvey Leadpipe
30 Nov 2005, 15:29
Weaver said
'Problem is that he knows that the coaches want him to run with ball. But he can't figure out exactly when he should stop running and kick it.
More often than not he runs to far and puts himself under pressure. Bit to late to kick it when you have run too far.'
Think about why he does this ;). So often over the last 4 years he has no options to kick to. It is usually a crowded forward line with all players manned.
Although this irritates us to bits, I'd rather see him whoop a 55m roost high to Richo and hope he either grabs it or someone swoops on it than get caught and have it turned over 80m from goal.
Having said that, we've also seen his passing go to sh-t mt, don't tell me you missed one of his many attempted kick-the-ground stab passes this year.
Weaver's right. Dumb. And I'll throw in hopeless as well.
Truetiger
30 Nov 2005, 15:32
Although this irritates us to bits, I'd rather see him whoop a 55m roost high to Richo and hope he either grabs it or someone swoops on it than get caught and have it turned over 80m from goal.
Having said that, we've also seen his passing go to sh-t mt, don't tell me you missed one of his many attempted kick-the-ground stab passes this year.
Weaver's right. Dumb. And I'll throw in hopeless as well.
Dumb and hopeless surely there is better things we could call Tivendale then them 2 things lol.
Harvey Leadpipe
30 Nov 2005, 15:34
Dumb and hopeless surely there is better things we could call Tivendale then them 2 things lol.
We could, but I'd probably get banned.
madtiger2005
30 Nov 2005, 15:55
I remember the short pass against west coast that dribbled on the ground. That's about it that comes to my head for short passes. But I remember dozens of beautiful low kicks straight to the chest of a team mate over the last 5 seasons. It's typical of a Richmond fan to miss all the good things and only notice the mistakes and then multiply the mistakes by 5. He's our most talented kick and as I have said he has one of the most adequate opposite feet of most of the leagues best left footers. ;)
Truetiger
30 Nov 2005, 17:30
But I remember dozens of beautiful low kicks straight to the chest of a team mate over the last 5 seasons.
lol Now let me guess you are dreaming about Tivendale now ;) As that is the only time you would remember his beautiful kicks that go straight to a richmond player.
Lets show him the door.
cairo tiger
30 Nov 2005, 18:59
how long do we persist with guys who for whatever reason cannot sratch it in the afl? this guy is on his last chance next year, we have kids snipping at his heels to play, tivers is one reason why we are not going to get where we need to be....
Goldust
30 Nov 2005, 19:39
I remember the short pass against west coast that dribbled on the ground. That's about it that comes to my head for short passes. But I remember dozens of beautiful low kicks straight to the chest of a team mate over the last 5 seasons. It's typical of a Richmond fan to miss all the good things and only notice the mistakes and then multiply the mistakes by 5. He's our most talented kick and as I have said he has one of the most adequate opposite feet of most of the leagues best left footers. ;)
:) SPOT on mad one! Bout time someone said it. Reading the dribble which permeates the Tigers' board on a day to day basis concerning this guy is both unsubstantiated and unwarranted. Yes I too have sat in the stands and seen Tivendale on the odd occasion turn the ball over over the past few years, but no more than I saw the great Wayne Campbell do it throughout the course of his long career, nor Matthew Knights (no right foot ...... AT ALL), Joel Bowden, Andrew Kellaway, Darren Gaspar, Chris Hyde, Mark Chaffey, Andrew Krakour or anyone more or less experienced to have donned the black and yellow while Tivva has been a part of the line-up.
Wake up and smell the roses...the skill level at Tigerland has been poor for well over a decade ..... and it's widespread. It was even noticeable the year we advanced to the preliminary final, only to be humbled by both Essendon and Brisbane in finals action.
Tivva is by no means the lone ranger and in defence of the guy, would say at least his turnovers are for the most part resultant 55 to 60m downfield and not a mere 30 as is the case with the fumbling and bumbling ways of others.
Reading this forum, you would think that the Tigers are a mere one step away from playing in a grand final and that step is obviously axeing Tivendale. Yeah, that will solve all our problems. Me says he rebounds from an ordinary 2005 and gives the best and fairest a real shake.
Tivva has done plenty right in his stint at Tigerland and I think it would be for the best for those doubting Thomas' out there to get behind the guy for once and show him some support and save your vitriol for the opposition.
:)
itsintheblood
30 Nov 2005, 19:44
I've always been a fan of Tivva. He looked promising when he first came over in he late 90s and had a very good year in 2001. I don't care what anyone says. He has the best natural kicking foot in our team maybe apart from Newman. He also can kick pretty adequately on his right foot. I've seen him kick accurate 50m kicks on his right foot during several games. He has a much much much better right foot than Scott Lucas does and he does use it when he can't use his left. He shows a bit of dash and occasionally shows his class. How many of our players were excellent during the period 2002-2004? Not many. The poor Frawley game plan was confusing, congesting, unorganised and was pretty much designed to put the ball carrier under pressure, give him no options to kick to and be forced to kick the ball to a 50-50 contest or even turn it over. It killed the players confidence and it would make them do mistakes under no pressure also. As people here are saying, if you watch older games and see how good a player he can be, it's no surprise that he has been retained. Many of my mates at work think he's a decent player also. It disappoints me when I go to a game and when I get home, I see posts on here saying Tivendale made 10 turnovers etc lol.
When I was at the game I could see maybe 2 turnovers at most and I have very good eyesight. Another thing, alot of the time those turnovers are caused by our team not providing any good options to kick to. Other times I guess it's just the memories of Frawley may cause a miskick sometimes, but not often though. I guess many of our fans know how good a kick he really is and during the Frawley years he was the one to give the ball to in defence and the team would rely on him alot with his kicking, but as I said above it's not easy playing that position in a Frawley coached team and it will cause you to have no good options and possibly turn the ball over. Tivendales only major weakness is his decision making in crowded situations. He tends to run into a tackle, but he has time to work on that part of his game. But he really should be played away from the packs and on a Left half forward flank. With a bit of space his kicking to the forwards (either short stab passing or long kick to the goal square) would be deadly and his long kicking for goals will be more than handy. All he needs is to gain the confidence and he will be very valuable ;)
I remember the Kangaroos game when Tivva ran into trouble after playing on at CHF. It was a silly move, but our forward structure was the blame. There were about 20 people in the forward 50m arc and no players had space to lead and it was very crowded for a big mark. I say to his knockers, take off your beer goggles and put on some new specs and look at the complete picture when you watch the game and not just the individual ;). We should be supporting him and wanting him to play to his capacity because then we will be cheering him and saying he is an important part of the team and we want him to perform. He may have to play 5 great games in a row to turn his knockers and I hope he can do it. Go Tivva :D
Sorry MT but Tivendale has lost me. He and chaffey are the 2 remaining pieces of crap on our list. Unless he has an absolute blinder next year he's history.
White Czar
30 Nov 2005, 19:46
Sorry MT but Tivendale has lost me. He and chaffey are the 2 remaining pieces of crap on our list. Unless he has an absolute blinder next year he's history.
Roach?
Moore?
jackson_rules
30 Nov 2005, 20:41
Roach?
Moore?
roach showed great development last year, yes judged by his middle of the season at coburg u wont think that
Moore has shown enough signs to suggest he will be capable
U2 Tigers
30 Nov 2005, 20:51
Tivendale = dumb.
Problem is that he knows that the coaches want him to run with ball. But he can't figure out exactly when he should stop running and kick it.
More often than not he runs to far and puts himself under pressure. Bit to late to kick it when you have run too far.
He needs a little earpiece to the coaches' box "not yet, wait for it, NOW TIV".
Hopefully the extra year will help him. Also as more and more guys play like him he will be happier. Everyone will be running into dead ends but there will always be someone like JON to give the extra handball too ... won't be exposed as much as he is now.
I agree this is Tivvas biggest problem, runs to far, makes him look slow and a bad reader of the game.
Obviously a confidence player, which he is surely lacking.
wez10000
30 Nov 2005, 20:54
Maybe Terry needs to put Tiv in a room with Fox Footy and get him to watch the games from 2000 - 2003 and then he will see himself as one of our best players from that Era, And if anybody wants to watch a blinder of a game from Tiv then put on the Richmond vs Collingwood Round 1 game from 2002 in front of 80,000 ppl at the MCG on a Friday night where he kills the Pies:D
I agree this is Tivvas biggest problem, runs to far, makes him look slow and a bad reader of the game.
Obviously a confidence player, which he is surely lacking.
I think that is his biggest problem at the moment.
Longer term, as we become better and teams plan for us, new problems will come to the fore. We saw it in a few games. He can't play man on man and so teams know they can take him to the backline and exploit him. Also know that he goes to water under physical intimidation.
But for the next couple of years we won't be good enough to worry too much about that. He is hardly the weakest link in the chain. We just have to be aware that if/when we are hoping to win finals he can't be in the 22.
itsintheblood
1 Dec 2005, 07:55
Roach?
Moore?
Still young. Still have some time to prove themselves. Tivendale has turned to poo.
The guy has been at our club for 8 years coming off the rookie list. He is yellow&black through and through.
He has been serviceable to RFC and I for one have enjoyed his time with us. Yeah we know he hadnt the best season last year but I am amazed at how he can be crucified to such an extent?
Some of you need to learn about respect! Talk about eating your own.
Tivers & Chaffey are not the best players at Richmond, never were, they are two players who started their careers at Punt rd and have tried to the best of their ability to run out every weekend and give their all. Their time will come but in the interim until Wallace and co make that decision stop degrading them for a cheap laugh!
MartinLutherWallace
1 Dec 2005, 10:42
Actually,Tivendales BIGGEST problem is the fact that oposition players see him as a soft cok and mark him as a soft target.
All his own doing really
The rest is just due to his fear factor,ie - cant think.
Finished imo.
itsintheblood
1 Dec 2005, 10:45
The guy has been at our club for 8 years coming off the rookie list. He is yellow&black through and through.
He has been serviceable to RFC and I for one have enjoyed his time with us. Yeah we know he hadnt the best season last year but I am amazed at how he can be crucified to such an extent?
Some of you need to learn about respect! Talk about eating your own.
Tivers & Chaffey are not the best players at Richmond, never were, they are two players who started their careers at Punt rd and have tried to the best of their ability to run out every weekend and give their all. Their time will come but in the interim until Wallace and co make that decision stop degrading them for a cheap laugh!
And this is EXACTLY the reason why we have been such a mediocre club. We accept mediocrity. Who gives a rats clacker if tivendale is yellow and black thru and thru??? The bottom line is, his disposal and unaccountability has murdered us over recent years and that's why we have been poo. Because of players like him. His kicking for goal is schyte also. It's time to go......
madtiger2005
1 Dec 2005, 10:45
I'm hoping that he gets into career best form and is part of a finals team, because his kicking skills are important
Harvey Leadpipe
1 Dec 2005, 11:13
I'm hoping that he gets into career best form and is part of a finals team, because his kicking skills are important
No doubt he has a big left foot mt, but are his kicking skills that crash hot? A number of times over the past couple of seasons I've seen him receive an easy ball, and have a very gettable ping at goals from around 45-50 out, only to see him pull them. Players like Akermanis and Brad Johnson make oppositions pay when in these positions. I am not doubting his action and his distance, he looks great in the set-up, but I think the outcome of his disposal may get overlooked a touch because he can look good doing so.
Either way, I think he's gawn.
madtiger2005
1 Dec 2005, 11:58
ur complaining that he misses a goal from 50m, but Richo misses from 10m ;)
No doubt he has a big left foot mt, but are his kicking skills that crash hot?
I'm not convinced he's a great kick. I think, mechanically, he could be a consistently very good kick, but mentally he needs to settle down. He often seems to be 'on the stretch' when kicking, even with no opponent within 10m of him. In these circumstances he looks off balance. I think if he set himself a bit before kicking long he could be very dangerous.
greg miller said some players will be put back in thier natural positions. I am hoping that means danny jackson to the hbf or bp and tiv to the hff or wing.
Tivendale's natural position is on the Coburg bench
madtiger2005
1 Dec 2005, 12:26
I think you should stay back in the year 1980 ;)
Harvey Leadpipe
1 Dec 2005, 13:10
ur complaining that he misses a goal from 50m, but Richo misses from 10m ;)
Only when Tivva commands 2 or 3 of the opposition, single handedly wins games off his own boot, and stands up as our only shining light for 10 years can you mention the names Tivendale and Richo in the same sentence.
White Czar
1 Dec 2005, 13:17
40 odd posts later and im sorry but Tivendale is poo.
First on the chopping block to be cut in of season unless he does something special.
http://www.flyingomelette.com/oddities/sab/penelope.gif
Greg Tivendale.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5092/05ani9at.gif
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9610/08ani1rf.gif
Bowden and Bowden
I think you should stay back in the year 1980 ;)
I think you should see your first premiership before being allowed to comment on this board.
Some ppl know enough about footy to make intelligent posts. Others like you have no clue about footy, no idea about footy, and outside of footy, no ability to pick up chicks.
The only way to stop you making a tool of yourself is to see a premierhsip. Then you'll figure out what a hump you really are
madtiger2005
1 Dec 2005, 17:53
I've been to about 300 Richmond games 1980. How many have you been to? But I was too young to go to the 1980 grand final, so that makes you smarter about the game than me? What is picking up chicks got to do with anything? I bet I'd easily get more than you anyway.
Truetiger
1 Dec 2005, 20:07
Whats Tivendales average of getting caught for Holding the ball per match :confused: lol
Anyone that thinks Tivendale has something to offer have rocks in there head.
madtiger2005
1 Dec 2005, 22:14
well i got rock sized brain cells ;)
Was given plently of chances last season to show his worth. I too thought he'd thrive under TW's gameplan. he didn't and in fact went backwards. He's peaked and is on the downward slope. No upside at this stage. Not getting any quicker or smarter. I expect him to be adding to the depth at the 'Burgers.
Thanks for your contribution to the RFC Tivas. Will miss those long range bombs from 55m out a few years ago. He is gaaaaawnnnn.
johnny k
1 Dec 2005, 22:54
the thing that p*sses me off most about tivva is how a man who used to be able to hit a target and be deadly from 50-60 metres is now tragically unable to hit someone from 10m. he used to be a gun on his left, but now has been found out that he only has a left. hate to say it, but he is soft. he's gone into his shell the past 2 years and his confidence is rock bottom. if he was where he was back in 2001 he would be perfect as a receiver on the wing right now. but time and time again he is found wanting. he has one thing that we have lacked in foot speed, but yet he still ends up hitting walls and missdirecting kicks all over the place. he's hit the crossroads and i hope he can turn it around because he could be an integral part of this team moving forward, but currently as it stands he's struggling to keep his spot.
i'll get behind tivva all we want, but like usual we all have to address(as most of us have) he has hit the crossroads and needs to get that confidence back.
cairo tiger
1 Dec 2005, 23:01
gee it is funny watching and seeing poor ol mt self destruct, 100% knob mate
He deserves a chance to show that he can still get the 2001 form back. TW needs to show confidence in him and play him at HF.
White Czar
2 Dec 2005, 01:36
He deserves a chance to show that he can still get the 2001 form back. TW needs to show confidence in him and play him at HF.
Tivendale is what? 28 years of age, 150 odd AFL games.
Long enough to drop the 'potential' tag.
Worst player on our list.
Truetiger
2 Dec 2005, 05:31
Tivendale is what? 28 years of age, 150 odd AFL games.
Long enough to drop the 'potential' tag.
Worst player on our list.
Agree there anyone that has played the amount of games that Tivendale has he should be doing better then what he currently is. I would rather have Raines in the side in place of Tivendale atleast we know Raines is young with a future. Which is something Tivendale does not have.
Madtiger lol time to rename this lets bag tivendale lol post. ;)
TuskenRaider
2 Dec 2005, 08:11
Agree there anyone that has played the amount of games that Tivendale has he should be doing better then what he currently is. I would rather have Raines in the side in place of Tivendale atleast we know Raines is young with a future. Which is something Tivendale does not have.
Madtiger lol time to rename this lets bag tivendale lol post. ;)
Raines is young. We're yet to see if he has a future.
White Czar
2 Dec 2005, 12:36
Agreed. I reckon Raines has shown abit. Could be a long term winger.
Much rather Tivendale playing in Coburg to give a Meyer, Raines, Jackson, Tambling types a chance to stut their stuff.
madtiger2005
2 Dec 2005, 12:55
If I'm a knob, shouldn't you be sucking up to me cairo. ;)
If I'm a knob, shouldn't you be sucking up to me cairo. ;)
:p :thumbsu:
well i got rock sized brain cells ;)
you've got rocks instead of brain cells
Tivendale got engaged last week if any of you are interested
madtiger2005
2 Dec 2005, 17:22
congrats tivva ;). 1980 has meat pie for brains :D
madtiger2005
2 Dec 2005, 18:14
hey cairo someone told me to buy you a pair of tweezers, a magnifying glass and a pair of rubber gloves for christmas. Hmmmm, what on earth would you want those 3 items for? :cool:
Truetiger
2 Dec 2005, 19:57
Tivendale got engaged last week if any of you are interested
Hmmm whos the lucky guy lol
tigerboyz
2 Dec 2005, 20:36
A mate of mine I spoke to at work reakons he had word to tiva when he was at the club buying his membership.He asked him what the hell happened to him this season and his reply was "I was carrying an injury this season."Then my mate goes you were like bowden you never bent down to pick up the ball,tiva just laughed.
bikini babe
2 Dec 2005, 21:25
Every time I look at Richmond stats after the game he seems to be one of the higher posesion getters. He must be making space or something. I know he makes clangers and I obviously havn't seen much of him but if he's getting a lot of the ball he'll make the odd clanger esp. if the team is under pressure.
I wonder if his clangers go more noticed by Richmond supporters than those by other players.
In any case I think the Tigers are going to be the big improvers next year, and I love the attacking game plan and with increased depth in the midfield I think Tiv is worth another go.
cairo tiger
2 Dec 2005, 23:24
tiva got engaged to mt
Truetiger
3 Dec 2005, 05:39
tiva got engaged to mt
lol took the words straight out of my mouth lol. I did not want to be the one that broke the news. But we all know its true ;) dont we madtiger. lol
We have spent 6 seasons and 100 games figuring out Tiv can't play. He can't make decisons & u can't teach that. He can't man up & comes across as very dumb player.
If we r going to get better Tiv won't b in the side. Neither will Hall or Chaffey but it's good that people like these players! it makes the dicussion much more fun!