View Full Version : lets get over it people !
goodness ive seen some emotional stuff here lately, fact is afl is a big buisness and tough decisions need to be made, carrying on about baird and forsyth as if its the end of the lions is staggering !!! anyone would think it was power,voss or brown - get over it people !
baird - good young player not outstanding ,looked at sea in the big league, may turn out ok may not. chased by others with bigger bags of gold
forsyth - carnt walk in a straight line , will he come right ? who knows he we be rookied i reckon gives us another useable spot on the list and if the kid comes right he would be first to be relisted
same with logan and the other delisted boys, guys lets look at the big picture i know its sad to see some of our favoutites move on i for one hoped spanda was going to be a star but it didnt work out , lets just work with what we have got
Eagle Eye
1 Dec 2005, 09:28
goodness ive seen some emotional stuff here lately, fact is afl is a big buisness and tough decisions need to be made, carrying on about baird and forsyth as if its the end of the lions is staggering !!! anyone would think it was power,voss or brown - get over it people !
baird - good young player not outstanding ,looked at sea in the big league, may turn out ok may not. chased by others with bigger bags of gold
forsyth - carnt walk in a straight line , will he come right ? who knows he we be rookied i reckon gives us another useable spot on the list and if the kid comes right he would be first to be relisted
same with logan and the other delisted boys, guys lets look at the big picture i know its sad to see some of our favoutites move on i for one hoped spanda was going to be a star but it didnt work out , lets just work with what we have got
In regards to football, I am sure the Lions can survive without Baird and Forsyth, however the issue is the way in which both situations were managed.
Baird was given the indication that a senior spot might become available (McLaren) and if so they were keen to get him on the senior list. At the last minute the Lions "baulked" at that and offered him a Rookie spot on the belief that Baird would stay. He chose to take his chances in the draft and as it turned out he was viewed by at least one club (Bulldogs) as having something to offer. From my sources the Lions "cracked it big time" because they thought he would stay. The Lions played with fire and got burnt.
As for Forsyth, my issue is that he was dumped after the draft. That decision should have been made earlier so he (Forsyth) had a chance to nominate and at least feel like he had a chance somewhere. IMHO the Lions are now almost obliged to pick him up and morally it should be in the PSD, not just as a Rookie (my bet is that it won't happen).
The Flying Belgian
1 Dec 2005, 11:32
IMHO the Lions are now almost obliged to pick him (Forsyth) up and morally it should be in the PSD, not just as a Rookie (my bet is that it won't happen).
Why would they pick him him up in the PSD? Would defeat the act of delisting him in the first place. I'd say they will attempt to rookie list him (if no one else picks him up first) and upgrade him to the list if he gets his body right.
If (and it's still an "if") Baird's exit was mis-handled as has been alleged, then it's worrying. Irish, the realtive worth of Barid to the list is immaterial. Footy is a business and often hard decisions need to be made. But as a member I'm a shareholder as such in our club and I would wish at all times that our club would treat it's employees in an honest and transparent manner.
Poor bugger, he could have been in the main draft bar WE did the wrong thing by him and delisted him after the raft.
Not morally or ethically nice that one.
fact is we are not privy to what ever discussions/expectations there has been between forsyth and management ! they could have come to an agreement to delist him when they did to try and keep him at a reduced capasity ie rookie with his approval ? or they set standards of fitness he could not get too ? who knows they do we dont !
Isn't he doing the Kokoda with the players as we speak.
fact is we are not privy to what ever discussions/expectations there has been between forsyth and management ! they could have come to an agreement to delist him when they did to try and keep him at a reduced capasity ie rookie with his approval ? or they set standards of fitness he could not get too ? who knows they do we dont !
We're not privy, irish, but we have never been privy to them, and it's never prevented members from having an opinion and a say.
Personally, while I'd like the club to behave ethically, I'd prefer that they concentrated on being highly professional and football-savvy, and I think there's a number of courses that they've taken recently that haven't been either.
'Baird-gate' is unlikely to cost us dearly -- Patful might even end up a better player -- but they got outflanked, misundertood the situation as it existed and ended up looking redfaced and borderline amateurish.
The Selwood thing was stupid. Motlop too. McLaren, Logan and Spaander gone for nothing. Questions over the Allen elevation. Some have excuses but the general pattern has been unimpressive to say the least.
The Flying Belgian
1 Dec 2005, 13:17
Isn't he doing the Kokoda with the players as we speak.
Yep, he is. And he'll continue to train with the club apparently.
I try to look at all these things in context of other clubs and how they handle their list management.
All I can say is that the Lions fans have been spoilt in recent years and now have higher expectations then maybe is warranted, because when I look at other clubs and their list management, The Lions are still undoubtedly in the top 5 for resourcefulness and contract management.
Which is not to say they are above critisism of course.
look i reckon we are getting a bit to precious about some of these blokes! look they got a tough deal but so have many from each club ! its a fact and we are no worse than most clubs. good on baid hope he does well with the dogs but didnt we have the same conversation about a young lion that went to the roos last year ?? has the world ended since he left ?? no so lets get on with who we have
It's not really about preciousness, irish. They're big boys. They'll be fine. It's about effective and strategically smart list management.
look xplo i reckon its a storm in a tea cup you see it differently ! so be it, one of us will be judged right , we will have to wait and see, by the way i am not having a shot at you !! after all we all just want us to be sucessfull !!
Eagle Eye
1 Dec 2005, 21:28
look i reckon we are getting a bit to precious about some of these blokes! look they got a tough deal but so have many from each club ! its a fact and we are no worse than most clubs. good on baid hope he does well with the dogs but didnt we have the same conversation about a young lion that went to the roos last year ?? has the world ended since he left ?? no so lets get on with who we have
Doesn't make it right though. In probably every other business there are rules and regulations regarding how you terminate people - appears these don't apply in footy. Maybe something for the AFL and the AFLPA to look at.
Christ, have a look at the NRL or NFL sometime.
Christ, have a look at the NRL or NFL sometime.
Or the NBL where 80% of team seems to change clubs every year for a lot less money than AFL players.
TheBrownDog
2 Dec 2005, 05:11
What happened to Forsyth is all well above board and covered by Johnny's IR reforms, its all good.
The Flying Belgian
2 Dec 2005, 08:34
What happened to Forsyth is all well above board and covered by Johnny's IR reforms, its all good.
Just couldn't help yourself could ya, A?? :D :D Will it still be that way when you've got the top job? :p
Eagle Eye
2 Dec 2005, 08:43
Christ, have a look at the NRL or NFL sometime.
Well that certainly means it's not right:cool:
The Flying Belgian
2 Dec 2005, 08:46
Well that certainly means it's not right:cool:
Agree. The "everyone else is doing it then why shouldn't we?" argument has never been a prticularly strong one.
Just picture your Mum saying: "If the NRL or NFL pushed their players off a bridge, would we need to do it too?"
No, no you miss my point.
When compared to other codes, I think the AFL has an unusually high amount of loyalty and recognition of service.
Well thats how I see it anyway.
The Flying Belgian
2 Dec 2005, 11:34
No, I think you're right, it does have more loyalty than many other codes.
But I always subscribe to the "treat others how you would like to be treated" ethos. IF Baird was promised one thing only to have the offer recinded, it's not the way I would like my club to treat it's players.
Personally, I think the whole topic has been covered and starting a thread telling everyone to get over it, is just liekly the keep the controversy going on longer. No offence intended irish!
MSB ROYS
2 Dec 2005, 12:52
How is supposedly what happened to Baird any different to what Headland said to the Lions? The way I see it: if you are an average young player you are at the mercy of a club, if you are an above average young player it's the club is at the mercy of the player.
As much as we don't like it, the club has to be run as business otherwise it will go bankrupt. Unpopular decisions that in retrospect look bad often need to be made in business.
The Flying Belgian
2 Dec 2005, 13:58
How is supposedly what happened to Baird any different to what Headland said to the Lions? The way I see it: if you are an average young player you are at the mercy of a club, if you are an above average young player it's the club is at the mercy of the player.
As much as we don't like it, the club has to be run as business otherwise it will go bankrupt. Unpopular decisions that in retrospect look bad often need to be made in business.
I agree that unpopular decisions need to be made in a footy club. Players get delisted all the time. That's fine. It's when it's handled in an unsavoury manner that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The current administration weren't around when Adrian Fletcher got the chop. Sure, things worked out OK in the end and it was probably a very sensible thing to do - after all, we got Luke Power out of it. But imagine if Robbie Copeland, a hugely popular figure amongst all the players, was treated shabbily. And I don't mean just delisted, I mean shafted - there's a big difference. I imagine it would drive a wedge betwen the football department and the players to some degree. To me that's just not smart.
The difference between Headland and (allegedly) Baird is that Headland made the decision, he left, so the protaganist is no longer involved with the club. When the football department make the decision they're still there and it can cause disharmony.
I must stress again, that there are no concrete facts regarding Baird's departure. I've heard two stories, both from very credible sources that totally contradict each other. What's done is done now. All I've been doing is voicing my concern over the potential that things like that could happen at our club. It may not seem a big thing to some - just my point of view that all players on our list should be treated with courtesy. After all loyalty is paid back in loyalty.
I agree that unpopular decisions need to be made in a footy club. Players get delisted all the time. That's fine. It's when it's handled in an unsavoury manner that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The current administration weren't around when Adrian Fletcher got the chop. Sure, things worked out OK in the end and it was probably a very sensible thing to do - after all, we got Luke Power out of it. But imagine if Robbie Copeland, a hugely popular figure amongst all the players, was treated shabbily. And I don't mean just delisted, I mean shafted - there's a big difference. I imagine it would drive a wedge betwen the football department and the players to some degree. To me that's just not smart.
The difference between Headland and (allegedly) Baird is that Headland made the decision, he left, so the protaganist is no longer involved with the club. When the football department make the decision they're still there and it can cause disharmony.
I must stress again, that there are no concrete facts regarding Baird's departure. I've heard two stories, both from very credible sources that totally contradict each other. What's done is done now. All I've been doing is voicing my concern over the potential that things like that could happen at our club. It may not seem a big thing to some - just my point of view that all players on our list should be treated with courtesy. After all loyalty is paid back in loyalty.
My sentiments exactly.
Sometimes football clubs do things that we don't agree with. That is fine. That will happen for all of eternity as we as fans don't always know the full story and people are bound to have different opinions on how a footy club should be run.
But sometimes football clubs do something which is unsavoury. Normally this involves something that borders on unethical or dishonest. If the Lions reneged on a promise or verbal commitment to Baird then that to me is dishonest. It doesn't matter if it is a footy club I support or a business I am involved in, I will be opposed to that sort of behaviour and have no dramas criticising the club for it.
However, it is all supposition at this stage. And, on past form with the club, we may never know the truth.
Melbourne Lion
2 Dec 2005, 14:47
I remember how dissapointed I was letting go of Molloy(being a roy boy) and also not doing more to hold on to Headland,but the proof was in the pudding I think.
Although some draft and trading moves seem a little dissapointing at times I tend to put my faith in the club that they know what they are doing,and are basically going to steer us in the right direction.
After all they must of been doing something right if the past 5 years are anything to go by.
look xplo i reckon its a storm in a tea cup you see it differently ! so be it, one of us will be judged right , we will have to wait and see, by the way i am not having a shot at you !! after all we all just want us to be sucessfull !!
irish, it's not about who will be proven correct or not. Gubby has done a marvelous job at holding the list together during the triple premiership years. However in the last few years he and the management (Bowers) have been found wanting. Including list management issues and administrative blunders that have cost the club dearly. Clearly there are many examples this year of list mismanagement. Selwood/Motlop fiasco, Travis Baird issue, Marcus Allen elevation, Forsyth de-listing etc...
No one is beyond criticism and everyone is accountable to the members. As members we have every right to air our grievance.
However once the season starts we are all behind the club and the staff. Including players and coaches.
well i think people forget the added pressure of the salary cap and back ended contracts which helped us all celebrate 3 premierships !! now its pay back time !! its hard yard times people get used to it !! its not mismanagement or anything like it.to me its a lot of hot air about nothing how would you like to be a docker or a pie fan then ! now thats poor list management