View Full Version : Hypothetical situations for World War II...
Have you ever though to yourself "What would happen if this happened, or that happened? during an important event in world history? Well... I have a few scenarios here that we can discuss:
What would happen if Japan never attacked Peral Harbour
What would happen if America never were involved in the war, and remained an isolationist country that was neutral?
What would the world be like today if Hitler gained control over Russia and Britian?
Would the war had of changed drastically if the Thrid Reich took over all the precious oil supplies and resources in the Middle East?
What impact would it have in the late stages of World War II if Rommel and his conspircators actually finished the job on the assassination of Hitler himself?
What would have happened if Hitler diverted all his resources into attacking and invading the American mainland when Germany was at their height of power during the war? (Just before the invasion of Russia)
What if Japan had won the battle of Midway? Would this ensure Japanese control of the Pacific and the eventual invasion of Australia?
Aftermath of the war - What would have happened IF Germany had of won the invasion of Russia with tem also driving back the Americans and Britts into the sea... and that Japan had FULL control of the Pacific?
There are hundreds of other scenarios... but I only pointed out the major ones that are very likely to have a major impact. So what do you think?
Bloodstained Angel
7 Nov 2001, 13:48
Ok - I'll have a go
What would happen if Japan never attacked Peral Harbour
USA would probably have been drawn into the Pacific war anyway. The Phillippines were an American colony in those days and it is plain to see the Japs always intened to occupy the Philippines to help secure the shipping lanes between Indonesia (where all the oil was) and Japan.
What would happen if America never were involved in the war, and remained an isolationist country that was neutral ?
The Soviet Union would have emerged as the supreme and unchallenged victor in the war. Great Britain would have been a defeated country. The USA, whilst not invaded, would almost certainly not be the superpower it is today.
What would the world be like today if Hitler gained control over Russia and Britian
Facism would still be the dominant global political idealology. We would all be living in a world considerably less free and much less prosperous than what we ended up with.
Would the war had of changed drastically if the Thrid Reich took over all the precious oil supplies and resources in the Middle East
Irelevant point, The Germans never seriously considered occupying the Middle East just to get oil. The Oilfields at Ploesti in Romania and the Caucausus in Russia were far more imporatnt and more extensively defeloped oil fields than the Middle East in the 1940's.
What impact would it have in the late stages of World War II if Rommel and his conspircators actually finished the job on the assassination of Hitler himself?
The bomb plotters would have attempted to sue for peace with the Western Allies at least almost immediately. I sincerely doubt whether the Allies would have been prepared to negoiate a peace with the new regime that was somehow a compromise on their earlier demand (unconditional surrender)
What would have happened if Hitler diverted all his resources into attacking and invading the American mainland when Germany was at their height of power during the war? (Just before the invasion of Russia)
To do this, Germany needed a navy capable of taking control of the North Atlantic. Although they had a plan to build a mighty fleet of battleships (Plan Z) it had a completeion date of 1947 !
As totally unprepared as they were for war, the USA would have able to beat back a seaborne invasion of its North Eastern coastline reasonably easily. But like I said, The Nazis had no navy, so could not mount any meaningful attack on the North American land mass.
What if Japan had won the battle of Midway? Would this ensure Japanese control of the Pacific and the eventual invasion of Australia?
The immediate consequence of a Japanese victory at Midway is that the Japanese would have occupied Midway, Hawaii, the Aleutians, and would have benn in a position to actually attack the Western Seaboard of the USA. As for Australia, the Japanese never pocessed a single credible plan for the invasion of the Australian mainland. However if they had won Midway, it may have made them draw up some of those plans pretty quickly. Who knows what may have happened to Australia in that eventuality !
Aftermath of the war - What would have happened IF Germany had of won the invasion of Russia with tem also driving back the Americans and Britts into the sea... and that Japan had FULL control of the Pacific?
Wouldn't like to speculate beyond saying that we would all be living in a very Facist world if the Axis powers won the war.
cheers
Pessimistic
7 Nov 2001, 13:58
All empires come to an end. I don't think the Nazi one would have been different. And like Britain, USSR and now USA, they would get their ass kicked in Afghanistan.
Replace the current american influences in Australia with German ones. That'd about do it.
Satay Mat
7 Nov 2001, 16:21
we would be run by a small annoying man with ill-conceived notions of self-importance, who placed an unhealthy emphasis on us all being the same, white with blond hair.
He would have those who look different to us shipped off in large container ships to far flung parts of the empire never to be heard of again.
oh....
wait a minute.....
hmmmmmm......
when is the election again ?
:)
Satay Mat
Mooster7
7 Nov 2001, 17:12
I agree with BSA re his answers with only a few exceptions or added comments.
The US would never have been isolationists indefinitely. Without US aid, the Soviets would have been in a bad way materially speaking. Stalin considered more than once to strike an agreement with Hitler. The USSR limped into Berlin logistically speaking. Without the second front of the Western Allies (particularly the locust like swarm of aircraft in the West) Russia may have been able to reclaim the Ukraine, entering Poland and subsequently Germany, would have been highly problematic for them. IF we keep in mind, there is no US involvement in the war.
From everything I've read, Rommel alone realized the enormous strategic advantage of occupying the Mid-East. I've read von Mansteins book 'Lost Victories', and even he didn't mention it. Surprising. I consider von Manstein to have been one of Germany's best strategic thinkers.
Any attack upon the American 48 would have been futile. An examination of documents generated by the Japanese high (after the war) shows, they had no intention of ever doing so. Apparently it was, at least, discussed at one point. They knew that every American had a gun at home. The US Army aside, the Japanese were terrified of the prospect of the millions of "home-spun" soldiers that could be raised simply by Yanks going to the closet and loading up the home defense unit. Also, I don't believe the Japanese had the resources to mount an invasion - Their magnificent navy notwithstanding.
MIDWAY: Meant absolutely nothing. It is often considered to be the turning point in the Pacific. That is true from a certain perspective. The fact is the Japanese simply could not compete with the manufacturing muscle of the US. They knew it. Pearl Harbor was a desperate move for them. Unfortunately for them, it was the only move they could make. They were banking that a peace could be later be sued for after they had consolidated victories in the Pacific. Yamamoto himself was dubious of the over-all worthiness of this strategic outlook.
What if the Japanese had won at Midway? No difference in the eventual outcome of the war. May have taken another year.
At the time of Midway, the Japanese had 6 large carriers and 2 light carriers. What if they had sunk all of the US Carriers?
The score would have been:
Jap 6-2 US 0-0
The following year, the US had built: Saratoga, Wasp, Essex, Bunker Hill, Yorktown, Lexington II, Intrepid & 14 light carriers. The Japanese built nothing. So the score (one year after Midway) is:
Jap 6-2 US 7-14
The following year, the Japanese added 2 light carriers. The US built Ticonderoga, Hancock, Bennington, Wasp II, Hornet II, Franklin, Saratoga, Shangrila & 18 light carriers. New score:
Jap 6-4 US 15-32
By 1945, the US economy accounted for over 50% of the WORLD Gross National Product. That, and it had never fully gearred up for a "total" wartime economy, AND was actually downsizing production by the end of 1943.
BIG SOBERING FACT ALERT!
The US alone produced more wartime vehicles, aircraft, naval vessels, guns etc. in the FIRST fiscal quarter of 1943 than the Japanese did throughout the ENTIRE WAR. Sobering fact, eh?
Production score: Jap 7 years US 3 months.
Generals, Soldiers, Strategy, Tactics make for good reading, movies, and wargames, but Logistics wins wars.
Guess I've rambled. I'll shut up. :D Good thread, and good work BSA. Peace.
Mooster, maybe you or BSA can shed some light on something that's intrigued me. Several years ago I was working on an island called Rota near Quam (interesting part of the world)
The Japanese were clearing off about 300 acres of jungle to put in a golf course and they had uncovered some evidence of ancient indigenous settlement so they had to stop & call us in.
What's relevant to this thread is that the whole island was honey combed with tunnels which I imagined hid the Japanese from American air attack. They must have abandoned in a hurry as everything wasleft behind. Whole underground hospitals with supplies, beds, letters, little shrines, machine guns with bowls of 50 yr old rice beind them. Most tunnels led out to gun emplacements [holes in the cliff overlooking the ocean with long guns trained out ..rather like the 1870 ones in Sydney Harbour]
On our days off we would dive just in the immediate vicinity..several wrecks but no evidence that they were WWII as everyone there said. Would they be, in your opinion, japanese?
You freguently mention Mdiway as the turning point of the Pacific War but a few colleagues tell me of diving at the relatively nearby island of TRuk where more than 60 submerged vessels and downed aircraft rest beneath the 40 mile wide Truk Lagoon. Is this the remnants of the once mighty Japanese Imperial Navy 4th Fleet? Locals say that during World War II that the entire 4th Fleet was quartered inside the lagoon. The assault on the fleet by the U.S. Naval Forces during "Operation Hailstorm" was an important loss to the Japanese ....was that at Truk?
We hear a lot about Pearl Harbour but 40-60 vessels is much bigger haul and had to have been a turning point in the War in the Pacific. I haven't had the oppurtunity since I was there to research this but such a strike from the Allies had to be a major factor in Japan's subsequent loss. Was it a single strike? What did it involve and how come it's not as famous as Midway or Pearl harbour for example?
thanks.....I always wondered.:confused:
Originally posted by Satay Mat
we would be run by a small annoying man with ill-conceived notions of self-importance, who placed an unhealthy emphasis on us all being the same, white with blond hair.
He would have those who look different to us shipped off in large container ships to far flung parts of the empire never to be heard of again.
oh....
wait a minute.....
hmmmmmm......
when is the election again ?
:)
Satay Mat
:p
Good point by Mooster7 (are you the little red Mooster?). Logistics wins wars, and WW2 is the ultimate proof. Despite winning every land battle for about the first three years of the war, one loss set the Krauts on their arses (Stalingrad) and another loss basically finished them (Kursk). In the same way Pearl hampered the Yanks, but Midway really walloped the Japs, and from there they were swamped. The U.S. could have lost Pearl, Midway and the coral sea and still won in 1945.
Personally I think the Axis powers (apart from Italy) totally overacheived to do as well as they did, and the harder they tried the bigger the reaction from other countries was going to be.
On last point, say the Germans did win in Europe (which I think was impossible, but I admit I could be wrong). They might have proceeded with Plan Z, but by 1947 I think the nuclear rain would have begun, and Europe would be a lifeless wasteland.