View Full Version : England comprehensively smashed by Pakistan: what do we make of it?
just maybe
3 Dec 2005, 17:56
2-0 in a 3 Test series to Pakistan, with large parts of the draw and all of the 3rd Test seeing Pakistan utterly humiliate a pathetic England side.
What does this tell us about England? Did they really have the rub of the green in the Ashes? Were they too arrogant to prepare plans for Pakistan? Did they play out of their skins in the Ashes? Can they play on the subcontinent?
All that can be said is a team declaring itself No 1 in the world cannot produce a humiliating performance like this and expect to be taken seriously.
Punt_Road_Roar
3 Dec 2005, 17:58
That they are frauds.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
3 Dec 2005, 17:58
I agree with all points.
In the Ashes there was no doubt England were the better side. They had the luck though, batted first 4 out of 5 times, umpires, injuries, the support of the home crowd (which is under-rated in cricket)
All in all England have lost some serious ground after the ashes.
The only improvement i can see is that KP took some catchs.
JohnWorsfold
3 Dec 2005, 18:01
when flintoff learns how to play spin then come back and tell me hes the best allrounder what a joke
i think it shows how much they relie on Flintoff and he was the difference in the ashes series.
a few comments after the ashes from coach and a few players probaly thought they were better then what they were, and some played like Millionaires in this series.
Cooldude
3 Dec 2005, 18:02
What do we make of it?
That Pakistan is a very good side
Losing one series doesn't suddenly mean a good side's ********, it was the case when Aus lost the Ashes, and it will be the case here
This is the first series lost for the Poms in two years, and many teams have fallen over in Pakistan before, they won't be the only one.
Punt_Road_Roar
3 Dec 2005, 18:08
What do we make of it?
That Pakistan is a very good side
Losing one series doesn't suddenly mean a good side's ********, it was the case when Aus lost the Ashes, and it will be the case here
This is the first series lost for the Poms in two years, and many teams have fallen over in Pakistan before, they won't be the only one.
LOL @ England losing 2 series in a row when they travel to India
Good Luck ! :thumbsu:
Adelaide Hawk
3 Dec 2005, 18:10
Good to see the real England back :D
Cooldude
3 Dec 2005, 18:18
LOL @ England losing 2 series in a row when they travel to India
Good Luck ! :thumbsu:
That will happen
Sub-continent tours exposes England's lack of any spinner whatsoever, Giles is rubbish, Udal is slightly better but still no good.
Remember the times when they brought Ian Salisbury, now he's just funny :D
red+black
3 Dec 2005, 18:20
I still recall seeing an article after Australia won the first test against the Windies going on about how if Australia lost the series 2-1 and England beat Pakistan 3-0 that England would be crowned the undisputed #1 team in Test cricket according to ICC rankings. So close.
Found the humourous article (http://www.icc-cricket.com/icc-test/content/story/224799.html)
fryingpan
3 Dec 2005, 18:26
Pakistan are a bunch of guns when they want to be. Kaneria, Akhtar and Sami are awesome bowlers with Kaneria unluckily missing out on a hat-trick today! Pieterson, Flintoff, Jones in 3 balls that would have been something!! They have the batters like Inzi who is in the best form of his career, Yousuf who just made a double ton and has always been reliable, that little champ Akmal great keeper great batsman and proved that with 150 odd. Afridi can fire unbelievably but we all know his consistency is terrible. Haven't seen too much of Younis Khan but have always thought of him as being reliable like Yousuf. Salman Butt is a gun opener as well. Good thing about the bowlers too is that they can bat. Sami has batted as high as 7th I do recall and Akhtar can be reliable as we saw a few days ago when he made 38 off around 80 balls. Kaneria can also throw the bat. Great team when they work together as was shown throughout this series. It is just a great shame that they don't do this on a consistent basis. Go Inzi!!
Punt_Road_Roar
3 Dec 2005, 18:26
I still recall seeing an article after Australia won the first test against the Windies going on about how if Australia lost the series 2-1 and England beat Pakistan 3-0 that England would be crowned the undisputed #1 team in Test cricket according to ICC rankings. So close.
And now if India beat Sri Lanka atleast 1-0 then England will slip to 3rd.
red+black
3 Dec 2005, 18:30
England drops from 119 to 113. Ouch.
red+black
3 Dec 2005, 18:31
And now if India beat Sri Lanka atleast 1-0 then England will slip to 3rd.
getting a single ball bowled will be an achievement the way things are going.
The only improvement i can see is that KP took some catchs.
Improvements?
Only Ian Bell has enhanced his reputation for England in this series (top series run scorer for England). The rest have just been a disapointment for the majority of the series. :thumbsd::thumbsd::thumbsd:
Punt_Road_Roar
3 Dec 2005, 18:32
getting a single ball bowled will be an achievement the way things are going.
True
I wonder how much swing one would get while a hurricane / cyclone / typhon is ripping through the ground
:D
Blues_Man
3 Dec 2005, 18:59
Well done to The Legendary RB for sticking with these threads through thick and thin . good to see a pommy supporter big enough to stick it out when their side is going through a rough patch . Unlike eddie smith, browneye, and renegade who disapear and hide in shame as soon as the going gets a little tough :thumbsu:
red+black
3 Dec 2005, 19:06
Only one thing matters. If England can win the Ashes in Australia next season, regardless of ICC Test rankings, that would be enough for me to crown them world champions.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
3 Dec 2005, 19:21
yeah, good point, most of the English supporters have been unsighted except for the Legendary RB.
Well done sir.
Joffaboy
3 Dec 2005, 19:32
Well done to The Legendary RB for sticking with these threads through thick and thin . good to see a pommy supporter big enough to stick it out when their side is going through a rough patch . Unlike eddie smith, browneye, and renegade who disapear and hide in shame as soon as the going gets a little tough :thumbsu:
Yes well done RB.
Remember it took the Aussies 34 years to win a series on the sub continent. It aint easy to do and the poms just found out how difficult it is to do.
In saying that I am amazed how quickly they collapsed in this test. I have a heavy cold and went for a sleep at around 7.00 pm thinking Bell and Collingwood had the Pakistani attack well in hand.
Got up at 9.00 and it is all over. No real fight at all after Bell and Collingwood. Now that is a poor effort.
Will be interesting how this translates in 12 months time. The Ashes loss has drivewn the Aussies to begin the transformation of the Aussie team with the middle Order getting a new look and more fresh faces on the way.
Warne and McGrath will be still around and show no signs of losing any of their effectiveness with Gillespie gettingt back to form and players like Tate, and left armers Bracken and Mitch Johnstone beginning to hit their straps.
In contrast the English look a tired bunch of cricketers. Harmison will struggle in the sub continent, which isn't really a worry, he will bounce back. Hoggard has been ineffective. Both look much better when Jones is in the team though, and with a fit and rejuevented Flintoff, the English will be formidble.
Will be interesting if the English can reverse swing the ball in Aussie conditions. A major weapon in the Ashes campaign, and they will need to repreoduce that skill to unsettle the Aussies.
Uncle Harry
3 Dec 2005, 19:38
england have no hope in australia next year.. mind you i thought they had no hope with the ashes this year
as for the pakistan result it goes to show theyt fluked the ashes this year...bunch of cheats (ball tampering)
Bestbird
3 Dec 2005, 19:44
Seems that without the Duke balls the reverse swing was way more difficult for the English bowlers to achieve.
Uncle Harry
3 Dec 2005, 19:47
england on the way down back to the old team that got pummeled by everyone....australia had one bad series and are on the way back up showed in super test
new look middle order (Mike Hussey true champion)
Ten Ton Hammer
3 Dec 2005, 20:35
The english were very lucky not to go down 3-0!
frankrizzo
3 Dec 2005, 20:37
Yes well done RB.
Remember it took the Aussies 34 years to win a series on the sub continent. It aint easy to do and the poms just found out how difficult it is to do.
34 years was to win in india
We won in sri lanka in 1992 and in india in 1970 so thats a gap of 22 years not 34.
wow!!!!
englands 12th test series loss by 2 tests or more now since australia's last one in 88/89 aganst the windies 3-1.
were england honestly ever gonna win that series. they've only won 2 tests in their history on pakistani soil.
Its bloody brilliant.
Thats what i make of it.
eddiesmith
3 Dec 2005, 21:54
Improvements?
Only Ian Bell has enhanced his reputation for England in this series (top series run scorer for England). The rest have just been a disapointment for the majority of the series.
What 170 plus runs from good old Paul Collingwood in this game and he is still ******** in your eyes hey? He is a huge improvement from that last test, putting some pressure on the middle order:thumbsu:
Pakistan ******** me off so much though, they are so ********ing inconsistent, although I did find it interesting how little they play at home, that cant help
A fit Pakistan side could compete with everyone in the world at home and probably beat them, now if only they could travel
That england cant win away from home
eddiesmith
3 Dec 2005, 21:58
That england cant win away from home
Our 2nd away series loss in 3 years :rolleyes:
dan warna
3 Dec 2005, 21:59
perhaps if they had a batsman instead of vaughan...
Blue Boyz
3 Dec 2005, 23:43
i think it shows how much they relie on Flintoff and he was the difference in the ashes series.
a few comments after the ashes from coach and a few players probaly thought they were better then what they were, and some played like Millionaires in this series.
At face value I would have to agree with your comments about the over reliance on Freddy both with bat and ball. He was Vaughan's go to man when they needed a wicket in the Ashes but wasn't any where effective with the reverse swing in Pakistan as he was in England.
A lack of quality spinner was exposed in this Pakistan series. Giles' figures of 10 wickets @50 in the Ashes wasn't very impressive but the other bowlers good form saved him from being exploited. It will be interesting to see if he comes to Aust. next summer as LAO spinners are no where as successful in Aust. as there are in England.
England are now the hunted and their players are the ones that are under the microscope by the opposition and it will be interesting to see how they continue to handle the pressure and if this series is an example, it may be a struggle for some of them.
Ray Nolan
3 Dec 2005, 23:52
What do we make of it? We have a long way to go before we figure out what it takes to beat in form opposition on the subcontinent.
That said, our Cricket was so poor at many key junctures in the series. Some of the batting was abominable at crucial times when calm heads needed to prevail and build innings. Pakistan's bowling at times was sensational (particularly Ahktar & Kaneria) and we just did not deal with it. Our bowling generally lacked punch - Giles not being fit blunted our spin attack, I thought Udal tried hard. The quicks toiled hard without much success, the conditions certainly did not favour us as much.
The positive was the confirmation that Ian Bell has the makings of a good Test Cricketer and proved many of the doubters here wrong (don't say I didn't tell you so). I also thought that Paul Collingwood showed that he is an option at Test level despite my doubts.
We really need to go back to the drawing board for India, perhaps it may be time bring Loudon in to see what he can offer us at this level in terms of Spin. The top order certainly needs to buck up their ideas - Banger was the only one that had a decent knock. Flintoff needs to get a better idea against Spin as well, he struggled against Kaneria.
All in all a very disappointing performance. :(
Well, eddie has finally reappeared- I too, will congratulate RB and also Ray Nolan (is not always in on the threads full on, but does put in comment and analysis at times). Dipper as well throws in the odd bits...
browney and renegade, not to mention the mighty vaughan's army- are AWOL to defend the indefensible.
Now, going back to the start, my comment was that England would not have an easy time, and that a drawn series might be the best result they could hope for.
Missing Simon Jones obviously hurt, but their complete lack of dangerous spin bowling is still a major concern and will hurt them in India.
The batting has to be a concern- Vaughan's slump continues from South africa and Australia, and now both KP and Freddie look more at sea.
Bell did very well, and Collingwood performed in the third Test, but we'll have to see if that was a flash in the pan. clearly will be in the side for the First test in India- that side will be a very interesting side, one thinks.
England will be fighting for their spot at #2 in the rankings- will they show any backbone, or collapse in a heap?
1-0 would have been OK, but being thrashed as comprehensively as they were in the last Test brings back memories of the Trent Bridge near disaster, only rescued at the end....
JohnWorsfold
4 Dec 2005, 00:33
poor england I feel so sorry for them maybe next time jonathen agnew blaming the lack of lead up games does that ring a bell anyone:D
JohnWorsfold
4 Dec 2005, 00:39
Danish Kaneria: 8 If he ever gets the umpires on his side, he will become one of the very best slow bowlers of his generation.
Denied countless excellent shouts for lbw, Kaneria continued to bound in, and was finally rewarded with two slip catches and a brilliant googly which bowled Flintoff on the final day.
What 170 plus runs from good old Paul Collingwood in this game and he is still ******** in your eyes hey? He is a huge improvement from that last test, putting some pressure on the middle order:thumbsu:
Ah yea, sorry. I should of mentioned Collingwood, he performed admirably in tough situations even though it probably won't be enough for him to keep his place for the next test match.
Collingwood is not **** in my eyes, like Ian Bell is in yours, I just don't believe he has that extra bit of quality needed to have a good test record over a long period of time. He is certainly good squad member though.
Johnson#26
4 Dec 2005, 06:05
We can say Pakistan are on the way up - not a bad effort at all.
Also, the Poms played to their 100% best in the Ashes, when Australia, save for Warne, McGrath, Lee and perhaps Langer were all going at 50-60%.
Perhaps they just bult themselves up so much for the ashes, they just had a major "letdown" against Pakistan. Looking forward to see them come out here in 12 months time and see what they can do.
Stig O'Hara
4 Dec 2005, 09:46
Not really one for bagging captains,
but in the Multan test,
once the shine was off the ball, the poms bowled at the stumps,
pretty basic stuff, bar a bad last day batting
they were ok.
the final two tests,
they set defensive fields and leaked runs,
and didnt' bowl at the 3 bits of wood.
Taking three quicks, some bits and pieces mediums,
and an indoor offspinner into the final test, on a road wicket,
was not too smart, and the fact that the captain had to take 'toilet' breaks,
showed a lack of initiative, when they should have stuck to the basics.
Batting relied on individual heroics,
and a total inability to sweep the ball.
just maybe
4 Dec 2005, 10:13
Kaneria can also throw the bat.
The only bat-throwing Kaneria would be doing is on the gorund as he gets bowled in his first over.
He is possibly the world's biggest bunny.
fryingpan
4 Dec 2005, 14:44
The only bat-throwing Kaneria would be doing is on the gorund as he gets bowled in his first over.
He is possibly the world's biggest bunny.
No I think Hoggard and Harmison share that tag.
Blue Boyz
4 Dec 2005, 15:11
I think one of England's biggest problems now is that the cricket world and especially their supporters have an expectation of continuing their success at Test level.
Two very undervalued attributes that Australia has achieved over the last 10 years has been its ability to keep improving and play consistently to a high level literally every series, whether it be at home or away.
The team was up for the Ashes series and the real challenge for them is to maintain that form which at face value it failed to do comprehensively V. Pakistan.
If they can't do it against India they will be fairly tagged "one series wonders".
just maybe
4 Dec 2005, 15:26
No I think Hoggard and Harmison share that tag.
Kaneria averages 5.8 with a top score of 15.
Hoggard averages 8.07 with a top score of 38 and is improving considerably with Gillespie-style batting.
Harmison averages 10.18 with a top score of 42 and is quite a reasonable No 11, powerful hitter on his day.
It would seem your thought is incorrect.
fryingpan
4 Dec 2005, 16:15
Kaneria averages 5.8 with a top score of 15.
Hoggard averages 8.07 with a top score of 38 and is improving considerably with Gillespie-style batting.
Harmison averages 10.18 with a top score of 42 and is quite a reasonable No 11, powerful hitter on his day.
It would seem your thought is incorrect.
It would seem.
Flying Joey
4 Dec 2005, 16:32
i despise england just as much as the next aussie but any trip to the subcontinent is a tough one.. i think we are judging way too harshly on england.. they in conditions they wouldnt be used to, had food they wouldnt be used to, stayed in crappy hotels and wouldve barely got any sleep from the outside noise, had 10,000's fans screaming for their blood (so to say) and they had come off one of the most gruelling series in test history.. good on them for playing a team away from home that is actually considered half decent.. aust, IMO, took the soft option so out of form players could improve their averages..
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
4 Dec 2005, 17:04
Ridicilous comment about Australia taking the soft option.
Dog Town
4 Dec 2005, 17:37
They need a quality wrist spinner if they are going to consistently win away series.No variety in there attack if there quicks dont fire.
JohnWorsfold
4 Dec 2005, 20:01
They need a quality wrist spinner if they are going to consistently win away series.No variety in there attack if there quicks dont fire.
well why dont the just recruit someone from another country theve done it with all there other players I'm sure there is a kid in india who would love to be given a shot.
Cooldude
4 Dec 2005, 20:48
The only bat-throwing Kaneria would be doing is on the gorund as he gets bowled in his first over.
He is possibly the world's biggest bunny.
Chris Martin makes Pige look like the Don
i despise england just as much as the next aussie but any trip to the subcontinent is a tough one.. i think we are judging way too harshly on england.. they in conditions they wouldnt be used to, had food they wouldnt be used to, stayed in crappy hotels and wouldve barely got any sleep from the outside noise, had 10,000's fans screaming for their blood (so to say) and they had come off one of the most gruelling series in test history.. good on them for playing a team away from home that is actually considered half decent.. aust, IMO, took the soft option so out of form players could improve their averages..
Wait a minute- I'll giver you it is a tough tour...but
Food- I believe they bring their own stuff with them, do they not?
Crappy hotel- did you see the link RB posted about where they stayed for the Third test. Pretty posh in my book
Fans- read nothing about the noise keeping them awake- and the crowds were pretty dismal for the tests...apart from the gas cannister exploding, things were pretty tame, by all accounts
How did Australia "take the soft option?" Are you talking about the Windies? They are locked into the ICC calendar- have to play everybody over a five year period- not like we can go schedule England or India every year....
Chris Martin makes Pige look like the Don
True.
Martin is a quality number 11. :D
i despise england just as much as the next aussie but any trip to the subcontinent is a tough one.. i think we are judging way too harshly on england.. they in conditions they wouldnt be used to, had food they wouldnt be used to, stayed in crappy hotels and wouldve barely got any sleep from the outside noise, had 10,000's fans screaming for their blood (so to say) and they had come off one of the most gruelling series in test history.. good on them for playing a team away from home that is actually considered half decent.. aust, IMO, took the soft option so out of form players could improve their averages..
i don't think you're an aussie at all - more likely an englishman's alter ego
a) of course we had to play a series at home - we played the Ashes away remember? the one advantage to playing "one of the most gruelling series in test history" away from home is that you get to go home and play in familar surrounds afterwards
of course England would have to play an away series in the winter after playing at home in the summaer...it's as predictable as the seasons themselves really
b) if you are somehow impying that Pakistan is a better team than the West Indies then you could only judge it by the last time we played them...I think we absolutely smashed both teams the last time they toured so how did we take a soft option exactly? "hmmm...should we play the team we smashed 5-0 or the ones we thrashed 5-0?"
any other bright statements?
Flying Joey
5 Dec 2005, 08:20
aus being 'soft' was not asking the icc or whoever makes the draw to scheduele a test series vs someone like south africa at home after the ashes.. then the true grit of all aust players would be shown... and i think ul find that places like pakistan, india, srilanka, etc are always bussling, night and day which can be quite off putting for players not used to it.. im not sure how many english players have toured pakistan but it would be quite a cultural shock/experience
just maybe
5 Dec 2005, 08:27
aus being 'soft' was not asking the icc or whoever makes the draw to scheduele a test series vs someone like south africa at home after the ashes.. then the true grit of all aust players would be shown... and i think ul find that places like pakistan, india, srilanka, etc are always bussling, night and day which can be quite off putting for players not used to it.. im not sure how many english players have toured pakistan but it would be quite a cultural shock/experience
We have South Africa at home now, wonderboy. And West Indies were simply due a Test series in Aus, they've been waiting longer than South Africa. Let's no be retrospective, Flo Jo, there were people suggesting the Windies were a chance to knock off Australia.
Did you miss the World XI series as well, by the way? Geez, that was a crap team wasn't it? Lots of dud players.
Soft option? You fool.
As for culture shock...load of crap. It doesn't exist, especially to an extent it would effect your cricket and even more especially if you're being coddled, staying in posh hotels and avoiding the realities of the place you're staying. I've been to China, Egypt and Indonesia, and I never had any 'culture shock'.
aus being 'soft' was not asking the icc or whoever makes the draw to scheduele a test series vs someone like south africa at home after the ashes.. then the true grit of all aust players would be shown... and i think ul find that places like pakistan, india, srilanka, etc are always bussling, night and day which can be quite off putting for players not used to it.. im not sure how many english players have toured pakistan but it would be quite a cultural shock/experience
I answered the noise bit- hey, it is part of the culture one deals with- ear plugs work....
As for being soft, just maybe pointed out the SA series is upcoming- and let's face it, they are the side the Aussies would rather have for the Christmas and New Year Tests- should bring in good crowds in Melbourne and Sydney- Brisbane and Adelaide usually get the short end of the touring stick...Hobart when they get a Test.
Again, I'll repeat- the Pakistan tour was always going to be difficult- I noted that in the first post i made on the series. But a 2-0 loss should not be seen as acceptable by the ECB or the English players...I'd say welsh, but jones was out
Flying Joey
5 Dec 2005, 08:51
I answered the noise bit- hey, it is part of the culture one deals with- ear plugs work....
As for being soft, just maybe pointed out the SA series is upcoming- and let's face it, they are the side the Aussies would rather have for the Christmas and New Year Tests- should bring in good crowds in Melbourne and Sydney- Brisbane and Adelaide usually get the short end of the touring stick...Hobart when they get a Test.
Again, I'll repeat- the Pakistan tour was always going to be difficult- I noted that in the first post i made on the series. But a 2-0 loss should not be seen as acceptable by the ECB or the English players...I'd say welsh, but jones was out
thoroughly agree with everything uve said.. i was just pointing out that some ppl think that b/c u are a great cricketing team, u will beat everyone, anywhere.. even aust couldnt beat india in india for all tose years wen we were the best by a streak
Flying Joey
5 Dec 2005, 08:53
As for culture shock...load of crap. It doesn't exist, especially to an extent it would effect your cricket and even more especially if you're being coddled, staying in posh hotels and avoiding the realities of the place you're staying. I've been to China, Egypt and Indonesia, and I never had any 'culture shock'.
if u dont think the smell, heat, ppl and polution wouldn't affect u in some way, then my friend, it is u who is the fool
just maybe
5 Dec 2005, 09:12
if u dont think the smell, heat, ppl and polution wouldn't affect u in some way, then my friend, it is u who is the fool
So I'm a fool because they didn't affect me while I was there? I'd just say I'm normal and knew what to expect.
Minotaur
5 Dec 2005, 09:17
On the original topic. England did not perfomr that badly until the last two days.
They should have won the first test - they were lucky to get a draw int he second, but they did and got smashed in the third.
It could quite easily have been 1-1.
On Flintoff, he bowled really well during the series. 12 or 13 wickets in three tests at around an average of 30 is a pretty good effort in Pakistan. It is considerably better than a certain DKL ever managed in the country.
The issue with Flintoff is that he is not a nubmer 6 batsman. He should be batting at 7 or 8. This would completly take the presure off his batting and his record of an average around 35 with a century every 15 or so innigns would be excellent.
Flying Joey
5 Dec 2005, 11:02
So I'm a fool because they didn't affect me while I was there? I'd just say I'm normal and knew what to expect.
must only be the kryptonite that affects u
i despise england just as much as the next aussie
very bitter. but i think your find 95% of english people dont like cricket.
Flying Joey
5 Dec 2005, 11:10
very bitter. but i think your find 95% of english people dont like cricket.
bitter?? i respect them and love watching the ashes, but i hate losing to them more than any other country.. 95% is a lot of ppl, but i agree, it wouldnt be much
Bennycoff
5 Dec 2005, 11:51
no excuses england, you were bloody terrible. wheres simon jones now? dead ********.