Blackjack

[Angus1]

Can someone please tell me what rules Crown use.

For instance how many decks are used?
Can you double after splitting?
How many times can you split?
How many times can you split aces?
Any other variations would be handy to know as well.

I'm studdying Basic Strategy however strategy changes depending on different casino rules.

Also any websites with information on Crown games would be very handy. It's hard following Las Vegas websites when their Blackjack rules are different.

Any information would be appreciated. :cool:

[red+black]

Check pdfs here (http://www.crowncasino.com.au/Content.aspx?topicID=402)

I know for one thing, Crown uses far too many decks. I played a single deck table in Vegas.

Maybe this is normal at all casinos, but a 2-card 21 after a split is not blackjack, and merely pays evens.

You can double down only on hard 9, 10 or 11.

Dealer stands on soft 17.

You can split non-Aces to form a maximum of three hands.

Aces can only be split once and only one additional card will be dealt to each.

[sainter]

Can someone please tell me what rules Crown use.

For instance how many decks are used?
Can you double after splitting?
How many times can you split?
How many times can you split aces?
Any other variations would be handy to know as well.

I'm studdying Basic Strategy however strategy changes depending on different casino rules.

Also any websites with information on Crown games would be very handy. It's hard following Las Vegas websites when their Blackjack rules are different.

Any information would be appreciated. :cool:

I know a former BJ dealer quite well. ;)

Red+Black is spot on with his information.

It's 8 decks by the way.

[Daytripper]

I know for one thing, Crown uses far too many decks. I played a single deck table in Vegas.


Single deck :eek:
The card counters would have a field day !!!!

I used to try and card count when playing black jack but unfortunately used to always get too ********ed because the game bored me.

If you want to try it here's how to do it.

Cards 2345 are allocated a score of +1
Cards 6789 are allocated a score of zero
Cards TJQKA are allocated a score of -1

Make sure you keep an eye on every card that comes out and keep the score in your head.
The higher the score, the more likely a face card (TJQKA) is to come out so then you bet up. The lower the score the more likely a poor card (2345) will come so bet the minimum.

It sounds difficult but with practice it isn't actually that hard.
That said, doing this only slightly puts the odds in your favour. You will still have bad nights.

Also don't make it obvious because casinos are instructed to look out for counters and will eject you accordingly.

[The Dice Man]

Impossible to count cards at any casino in Aus anymore no matter how many decks you can keep up with, as they all have the constant shufflers now.

Used to play BJ all the time but wont go near those constant shuffling machines:thumbsd:

[Daytripper]

Impossible to count cards at any casino in Aus anymore no matter how many decks you can keep up with, as they all have the constant shufflers now.

Used to play BJ all the time but wont go near those constant shuffling machines:thumbsd:

I haven't played BJ at Crown for nearly two years now.
The shuffle machines were starting to come into vogue back then.

So they're all like that now ? :(

[Borgsta]

pontoon is much better. More fun.

[Angus1]

Thanks for the info guys.:)

I know a former BJ dealer quite well. ;)

Red+Black is spot on with his information.

It's 8 decks by the way.
Yes i thought it was 8 but i didn't know for sure. I practise at home with an 8 deck shoe so I'm glad I guessed right.

If you want to try it here's how to do it.

Cards 2345 are allocated a score of +1
Cards 6789 are allocated a score of zero
Cards TJQKA are allocated a score of -1

Make sure you keep an eye on every card that comes out and keep the score in your head.
The higher the score, the more likely a face card (TJQKA) is to come out so then you bet up. The lower the score the more likely a poor card (2345) will come so bet the minimum.
.
That is actually an uneven count and wont work.
6 should have a score of +1.
It's probably worthwhile pointing out to anyone who would like to try counting cards that you also need to get a true count which means you have to devide your score by the number of decks left. So with Crown using 8 decks it takes away a lot of the counters advantage. Then if they stop and shuffle, well your back at zero again.:mad:

pontoon is much better. More fun.
Yes it is but I don't know a strategy for Pontoon yet.:) I'm still trying to fine tune my Blackjack game and even with hours of practise i still have nights of big losses. With correct blackjack strategy though it is possible to win some serious money. Hell it's a gamble but we only live once hey.:cool:

[guess_who]

The counting method used was made up by some university students from Russia I believe, they lived in the states and worked for a dood in the states. While not fool proof they were mathematical freaks and often walked away with millions a night betting up too 100 G's a hand, saw it on a documentry a while ago.

[sainter]

pontoon is much better. More fun.

It's definitely more fun but it's not the game you want to play if you're a serious gambler. If you're with a group of mates and have had a bit to drink it's great fun. As long as you've got $50 - $100 that you're willing to lose anyway. It's strangely addictive, especially when you put $1 in the box, get a blackjack, and press the jackpot button. :p

For those that don't know there's no 10's in the deck. There's still picture cards though. In a way it helps the people that don't know what they are doing. Those that don't know BJ strategy and just keep hitting past 12 regardless of what the dealer has.

[red+black]

FYI. Phil Gordon's company Expert Insight (http://www.expertinsight.com/) are releasing a blackjack DVD very soon called Beating BlackJack. He mentions it in an interview on Poker Magazine (http://www.pokermagazine.com/Poker-Games/poker_games_tiltboys_phil_gordon_interview_2.html).

Our second DVD is released in a couple of weeks; it is Andy Block’s Beating Blackjack. Andy was a member of the MIT blackjack team. In his video, in a very similar way to my video, you inside his mind. He counts cards, he plays perfect basic strategy, and as he works with a blackjack team. Very similar to the MIT blackjack team that he was on. So that’s pretty cool. We have a golf video coming out that we are shooting in March. We are going to do 5 or 6 more this year on various topics. The company is growing very quickly, and it is going extraordinarily well. Being the CEO of a growing media company is not something to leave a lot of time for everything else.

[Supa Stylin Stevie]

6 deck games in the Mahogany Room.

[Kermit]

Actually its a 4 deck game on Mondays.

[Borgsta]

Actually its a 4 deck game on Mondays.

why are Mondays any different?

[red+black]

Phil Gordon reports on his blog that his BJ DVD will be released on March 31.

[Angus1]

6 deck games in the Mahogany Room.
Where exactly is The Mahogany Room? I was in Melbourne last week for a seminar and visited Crown for a little Blackjack but i could not find any Mahogany room or any poker playing?
Where is this room and where is the poker played?

[Borgsta]

The poker is on the bottom floor. I think its labelled as B1 or something, its basically underground.

[red+black]

FYI. Phil Gordon's company Expert Insight (http://www.expertinsight.com/) are releasing a blackjack DVD very soon called Beating BlackJack. He mentions it in an interview on Poker Magazine (http://www.pokermagazine.com/Poker-Games/poker_games_tiltboys_phil_gordon_interview_2.html).

Our second DVD is released in a couple of weeks; it is Andy Block’s Beating Blackjack. Andy was a member of the MIT blackjack team. In his video, in a very similar way to my video, you inside his mind. He counts cards, he plays perfect basic strategy, and as he works with a blackjack team. Very similar to the MIT blackjack team that he was on. So that’s pretty cool. We have a golf video coming out that we are shooting in March. We are going to do 5 or 6 more this year on various topics. The company is growing very quickly, and it is going extraordinarily well. Being the CEO of a growing media company is not something to leave a lot of time for everything else.

FYI, this DVD has now been released.

[red+black]

Impulse Shopping

I bought some stuff from Conjelco and while I was there, I said what the hey, I'll grab that Andy Bloch BlackJack DVD.

Andy is an MIT and Harvard graduate, a very accomplished blackjack player, and was runner-up to Chip Reese in the $50,000 HORSE at the 2006 WSOP.

So, if you want a copy, PM me. One stipulation though, I will only do this for Poker forum regulars.

[Crosby87]

I've seen it. Very good.

[DoubleA]

Impulse Shopping

I bought some stuff from Conjelco and while I was there, I said what the hey, I'll grab that Andy Bloch BlackJack DVD.

Andy is an MIT and Harvard graduate, a very accomplished blackjack player, and was runner-up to Chip Reese in the $50,000 HORSE at the 2006 WSOP.

So, if you want a copy, PM me. One stipulation though, I will only do this for Poker forum regulars.

Can you give a brief rundown of what he goes over (PM if need be). Just that I hate blackjack, but always end up playing it...so any additional info would do.

[red+black]

Review by Bill Rini here (http://www.billrini.com/2006/04/23/beating-blackjack-with-andy-bloch-2/).

[Ricketts]

Always split 5's. :thumbsu:

[red+black]

Does Crown, or any Australian casino, allow you to surrender a hand? That is, surrender half your bet and take back the other half?

[red+black]

Official site for the card counting documentary, The Hot Shoe (http://www.thehotshoemovie.com/), which features Andy Bloch and other blackjack pros.

[Crosby87]

Does Crown, or any Australian casino, allow you to surrender a hand? That is, surrender half your bet and take back the other half?

I don't think so. However in the Blackjack rules it says it's allowed in Crown Pontoon.

[red+black]

Is it just me or has BigFooty been really slow lately?

Anyway, re Andy Bloch's DVD. The 4 concepts he discusses are:
- basic strategy
- counting cards
- optimal betting
- team play

You probably could have guessed that anyway. I think teamwork is an important factor, because it can allow one person to play sub-optimally. That way, each person need not bet according to the count, but vary their bets, maybe one underbets, one overbets. Another situation where game theory can be of use. Of course, substituting players is good too.

[Crosby87]

Is it just me or has BigFooty been really slow lately?

Glad it's not just me.

[red+black]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478087/

New movie, 21, to be co-produced by Kevin Spacey:

"21" is the fact-based story about six MIT students who were trained to become experts in card counting and subsequently took Vegas casinos for millions in winnings.

[GOALden Hawk]

If you are interested you should read the books on the MIT blackjack teams - great reading. The first one is called Bringing Down the House.

I actually played that single deck blackjack game in Vegas. It might seem like a huge advantage, but it isn't really because the bet limit is really low and can't be changed mid-deck to take advantage of a positive count.

[kolchak]

pontoon is much better. More fun.

That's a game they want you to play like BJ, because it looks very similar but is completely different, i.e. I dont think they have any 10s in the deck....

[red+black]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8707/headerimg2li3.jpg

This seems to be the main BlackJack thread so I thought I'd post here.

Fox8 tonight, rather than screening poker, are showing the Ultimate BlackJack Tour. Maybe we'll see Erica Shoenberg!

Other poker players that have played on UBT are "Miami" John Cernuto, Alex Brenes, Antonio Esfandiari, David "Devilfish" Ulliott, Blair Rodman, Dewey Tomko, Annie Duke, Clonie Gowen, Freddy Deeb.

For those wanting their TV poker fix tonight there's always Channel 31 for Aces High.

[sheller891]

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8707/headerimg2li3.jpg

This seems to be the main BlackJack thread so I thought I'd post here.

Fox8 tonight, rather than screening poker, are showing the Ultimate BlackJack Tour. Maybe we'll see Erica Shoenberg!

Other poker players that have played on UBT are "Miami" John Cernuto, Alex Brenes, Antonio Esfandiari, David "Devilfish" Ulliott, Blair Rodman, Dewey Tomko, Annie Duke, Clonie Gowen, Freddy Deeb.

For those wanting their TV poker fix tonight there's always Channel 31 for Aces High.

lol, its been like that for a month at least now
no wpt

[Crosby87]

I watched it once. That was enough.

[red+black]

lol, its been like that for a month at least now
no wpt

yeah i thought as much. i haven't been home on fridays so didn't know. I'll have to give it a look-see at least once.

[red+black]

I watched it once. That was enough.

Yep I have to agree. That was terrible.

[Ricketts]

Instead of not drawing on a "soft 17" — a combination of an ace and one or more cards totalling six — the dealer must now take an additional card, giving the house an advantage that experts predict will lose "mug" players an extra $50 for every $1000 they turn over.

That's it i'm not playing anymore. :mad:

[Armwarmer]

What greedy ****s.

[red+black]

The Real Hustle - Casino BlackJack Scams

Paul Wilson (http://www.rpaulwilson.com/) is one of the world's best magicians.

4iHAp1R5GBM

[red+black]

MIT Mike:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/MIT-Mike-Aponte.php

Z_3vm1CdEE8

Will post more BJ clips later.

[red+black]

I guess this is the default BJ thread. Anyway, here's a trailer for 21, the new blackjack movie.

Loosely based on the MIT team.

Stars Kevin Spacey, Kate Bosworth and Laurence Fishburne.

XYXKGT4AjDQ

[BloodOfaTiger27]

Is there anywhere in Crown that dont have the constant shuffling machines?? For example Mahogany room or anything like that? There has to be somewhere surely, those things would cost a fortune but i guess they would pay themselves off in the first hour of use

[red+black]

A friend gave me an article from the Hun, June 21, but I couldn't find it online, so I scanned it, but it didn't come up good. So I retrieved it from Newstext.com.au. Long, but worth the read. Further proof that not only Crown, but the State Government and the Victorian Commission for Gaming Regulation are rorting the average punter:

Herald-Sun, SAT 21 JUN 2008, Page 029
DOUBLE OR NOTHING - How Crown tilts the odds in its favour by MICHAEL WARNER

A SLICE of Las Vegas came to Melbourne last year when Crown casino chiefs introduced a US-style blackjack game in its swish high-roller Teak Room. For local card sharks, it was seen as a chance to test their wares against a form of blackjack they only ever saw in the movies. But within weeks, after Crown had stacked the deck, the game was gone. "It was a farce from the start," Crown high roller Ron Parsons tells the Herald Sun. "They sold it as Vegas-style blackjack -- the only problem was, they modified it to their advantage and changed the splits, doubles and surrenders. People eventually woke up and realised they'd been suckered."

The casino had altered the rules, depriving punters of betting options offered under traditional Las Vegas blackjack. Critics of the Southbank gambling complex, which last year sucked a record $1.06 billion from the pockets of its customers, say this is the way business is always done -- Crown style. The latest change, as revealed in today's Herald Sun, is the introduction of card-shuffling machines in the VIP Mahogany Room, a move some gamblers believe will boost the casino's winning edge. It follows a decision to add an extra house number to the $2.50 roulette wheels on the public gaming floor. A double 00 has been added to the wheels, which also retain the single 0, effectively doubling the casino's profit margin from 2.7 per cent to 5.26 per cent.

Crown chiefs say all of their rules have been approved by the Victorian Commission for Gambling Regulation. "We adhere to and abide by all of the rules and regulations laid down by the VCGR and the State Government," spokesman Gary O'Neill says. As for the shuffle machines: "Many players are used to them on the main gaming floor and like them. No doubt a small number of customers prefer the older style dealer shuffling and there are many tables where they can play using this style."

A Herald Sun investigation this week uncovered several other changes designed to tip the odds in the casino's favour. One rule, quietly approved by the state's gaming watchdog, requires blackjack dealers to "hit" on "soft 17". This means the house gets a final chance to win your money instead of paying out players holding cards valued at 18-21. The change was likened by one punter to a sudden doubling in the cost of fuel from $1.50 to $3 a litre. "But the advantage the casino has over the oil companies is that the cost of its product is not required to be advertised and that cost is difficult to calculate, so it is nicely hidden," the punter says. "Only the most knowledgeable players understand what is going on."

A decision has also been made at Crown to limit the size of a local patrons' complimentary rewards to $400 a day. Previously, Victorian-based gamblers at Crown could earn an unlimited amount of freebies, including meals, parking and accommodation, depending on the amount of time spent playing at the tables or pokies. Others point out that the spread between the sizes of the minimum and maximum bets permitted at Crown are far less generous than those offered at casinos like Aspinalls in London, Bellagio in Las Vegas and myriad other houses in places like Macau and Atlantic City.

For example, gamblers playing on Crown's $30 blackjack tables are restricted from outlaying bets bigger than $1200. In Las Vegas, bets of up to $10,000 can be made on a $30 table, exposing the casino to far bigger losses. "Everything they do in Melbourne makes it harder for us to win -- and harder for them to lose," Parsons says. And he would know. As a member of Crown's elite top 200 Premium Club, he turns over $10 million a year. Last week he defied the casino by launching www.Casinobusters.com -- a website that teaches gamblers to win at both blackjack and roulette. Parsons' systems are based on capital preservation, coaching gamblers to gradually increase bets on winning runs and minimise bets on inevitable losing streaks. He says the casino can be beaten, as long as players stick to the correct strategies.

During a recent demonstration at Crown, he won $7100 playing roulette in just two hours. But not everyone is welcome to test his theory. Melbourne card shark Andrew Scott is among dozens of skilled blackjack players slapped with a lifetime ban by the casino. Like all card counters, he's doing nothing illegal -- but because he can win, Crown simply doesn't want him. Scott, who has since joined the World Poker Tour, says Crown has made an art form of changing its rules to fill its coffers. "Yes, there has been inflation in Australia since the casino first opened in 1994, but not of the kind we've seen at Crown," he says. "In the early years, $5 minimum Blackjack tables were commonplace and, during the day-time hours, $2 minimum tables were made available. These days $10 is the smallest minimum, and even they are hard to find and use those awful continuous shuffling machines."

But the VCGR says all of Crown's actions have been legal. "I can understand that players like to play games in a particular way," VCGR chief Peter Cohen says. "Our job is to make sure it is fair and has integrity -- and we are satisfied that the way blackjack (and roulette) are offered by Crown, including the use of shuffling machines, is fair."

However, long-time critic the Rev Tim Costello says there's never been anything fair about Crown casino. "From its inception, the casino has been in the state witness protection program. There always seem to be a special set of rules for Crown," he says. Crown bosses also know that unlike their competitors in Las Vegas, London or Macau, a disgruntled gambler in Melbourne simply doesn't have the option of walking up the road to try his luck somewhere else. "The standard blackjack game on the Las Vegas strip is a -25 point game, and there are better if you search around," Scott says. Crown's trashy -72 point game is almost three times as bad," he says. "Why? One word, competition. Oh, and one other thing, state government taxes."

[paxmaniac]

For example, gamblers playing on Crown's $30 blackjack tables are restricted from outlaying bets bigger than $1200. In Las Vegas, bets of up to $10,000 can be made on a $30 table, exposing the casino to far bigger losses. "Everything they do in Melbourne makes it harder for us to win -- and harder for them to lose," Parsons says. And he would know. As a member of Crown's elite top 200 Premium Club, he turns over $10 million a year. Last week he defied the casino by launching www.Casinobusters.com (http://www.Casinobusters.com) -- a website that teaches gamblers to win at both blackjack and roulette. Parsons' systems are based on capital preservation, coaching gamblers to gradually increase bets on winning runs and minimise bets on inevitable losing streaks. He says the casino can be beaten, as long as players stick to the correct strategies.

Nice. Write an article about how the Casino is ripping off the punters, and stick in a free promo for a guy who is.... ripping off the punters selling a bogus "beat the Casino" system.

[red+black]

Haven't posted much lately, need to catch up. At Crown yesterday I wandered over to the BJ tables in the Poker Room, not to play, just to watch for a few minutes. Was happy for two country fellows when dealer went 10-2-10, until he said "Stand off!" I was like WTF? Dealer informed me that at some BJ tables, it's a stand-off when dealer hits 22!!!!!

The latest BJ rules (http://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/Assets/Files/Blackjack%20Rules%20Version%2014%200%20_jackpot%20and%20plus _.pdf) from 6/12/2011 mention "Blackjack Plus":

22.3.1 A Blackjack Plus wager placed by a player will:
(a) Win if:
(v) The total of the player’s hand is less than 21 and that of the Dealer’s hand is in excess of 22.

(c) Stand off if:
(ii) The score of the Dealer’s hand is 22 for all wagers remaining on the layout.

[ash_1050]

Haven't posted much lately, need to catch up. At Crown yesterday I wandered over to the BJ tables in the Poker Room, not to play, just to watch for a few minutes. Was happy for two country fellows when dealer went 10-2-10, until he said "Stand off!" I was like WTF? Dealer informed me that at some BJ tables, it's a stand-off when dealer hits 22!!!!!

The latest BJ rules (http://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/Assets/Files/Blackjack%20Rules%20Version%2014%200%20_jackpot%20and%20plus _.pdf) from 6/12/2011 mention "Blackjack Plus":

22.3.1 A Blackjack Plus wager placed by a player will:
(a) Win if:
(v) The total of the player’s hand is less than 21 and that of the Dealer’s hand is in excess of 22.

(c) Stand off if:
(ii) The score of the Dealer’s hand is 22 for all wagers remaining on the layout.

As long as Crown continue to have a monopoly on table games in Victoria they will continue to tilt the odds in their favour. Unfortunately most punters are ignorant to how much they are being fleeced.

[Ricketts]

I was at Burswood and played where if the dealer got exactly 22 it was a standoff.

It was called 'Blackjack Switch' and the advantage for the player was that you played two hands and had the option to switch the top cards of your two hands (ie K5 and 6Q could become KQ and 56.)

Not sure it this advantage exists with 'Blackjack Plus' at Crown?

[Goodo73]

It was called 'Blackjack Switch' and the advantage for the player was that you played two hands and had the option to switch the top cards of your two hands
Alas this only exists in the same reality as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. :(

[checkraiseulite]

Genuine lulz that your average banana keeps giving crown action in these games.

[JuddsABlue]

It was only a matter of time. Crown keep slowly trying to slide in changes to their pit games increasing their edge. They begin with the smaller limit tables where the punters have no clue about edges and EV, and then it spreads like a cancer up the limits.

It started with sports blackjack where blackjack payed 5:6 on all $5 tables only. Then $10, now $15. Blackjack plus for my knowledge is limited to a new area of the casino designed to attract younger players who dont know better. Pretty soon standing on 22 will be everywhere.

Blackjack Switch is a fun game and I wish crown had it. As stated above its pretty simple, you're dealt 2 hands and have the option to switch the top two cards. Dealer stands on 22. There are also some fun bonuses for 2 pair/3 of a kind etc.

[BEEG]

Switch Blackjack which I played a bit in Vegas is alot of fun but the odds are stacked in the Casinos favour

Could not believe the new games they brang into the Casino

One game I played which is just a disgrace is call Backpro I'm pretty sure it's a mix of Baccarat and Blackjack

I had a 9 abd assumed I had won until the dealer pulled a 3 card 9 which I thought ok standoff but NO I lost because a 3 card 9 is considerd better then a 2 card 9

You also get paid half on 7 just a pathetic game

[daniel_4tw]

Haven't posted much lately, need to catch up. At Crown yesterday I wandered over to the BJ tables in the Poker Room, not to play, just to watch for a few minutes. Was happy for two country fellows when dealer went 10-2-10, until he said "Stand off!" I was like WTF? Dealer informed me that at some BJ tables, it's a stand-off when dealer hits 22!!!!!

The latest BJ rules (http://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/Assets/Files/Blackjack%20Rules%20Version%2014%200%20_jackpot%20and%20plus _.pdf) from 6/12/2011 mention "Blackjack Plus":

22.3.1 A Blackjack Plus wager placed by a player will:
(a) Win if:
(v) The total of the player’s hand is less than 21 and that of the Dealer’s hand is in excess of 22.

(c) Stand off if:
(ii) The score of the Dealer’s hand is 22 for all wagers remaining on the layout.

Surely not.

I used to play quite a bit back in the day at skycity in Adelaide, but the rules got to much. Automatic shufflers, only being able to double in 9,10,11, dealer hitting on soft 17, only paying 5:6 on bj etc. but standoff on 22? Really? Is this convention at the crown now?

Also, a while ago I think I got more money taken from me then I should have. I doubled, but accidentally didn't put enough chips down, and had a higher denomination on top - dealer didn't notice. I lost the double, and when the dealer went to take my chips realised I had less than my original bet as my double. He then asked I give him more money so it equaled my original bet. My issue is, if I had one, I doubt he would have paid me a full double amount... And partial doubling is allowed. So was I in the wrong, or did the dealer have no right to ask for more cash once the hand was over?

[JuddsABlue]

Dealer shouldnt ask for more, seen this a hundred times and all have ended up with floor calling supervisor and original wager counts because of the exact reason you said, they wouldn't pay you more if you won