Choco in The Age

[Ford Fairlane]

And just to prove I can learn ...

http://www.theage.com.au/realfooty/news/afl/alberton-impresario/2006/03/25/1143084053592.html

Alberton Impresario

March 26, 2006


There will be no more dress-rehearsals for young Port players, as coach Mark Williams tells Emma Quayle.

MARK Williams likes musical theatre. "I have this thing about performing," explains the Port Adelaide coach.

"You have an opportunity to perform on the night, so it's a bit like football. The people who come and watch will have an opinion, for the rest of their life, on one performance. So you can't muck around. You have to get it right."

As the Power prepares for the season after their "season after", its coach does not expect the players to wear their dancing shoes every night. While Williams is hopeful and optimistic that his side's season will not end until sometime in September, he is ready to hear an occasion stutter in its singing voice, to put more untried talent than normal under lights, and to ask others to start assuming Broadway status.

The cast changes started last year, when Williams realised it was time to look forward and gave the likes of Troy Chaplin, Michael Pettigrew, Steven Salopek and Danyle Pearce the second half of the season to show themselves off.

With Brett Montgomery and Byron Pickett sent on their way and Roger James retired, there will be more of the same this season. Where Williams normally likes a look at three or four newbies each year, the plan this season is for six or seven to dip their toes in.

They will not have much choice. Two weeks ago, the Power's former ruck coach, David Pittman, dropped in for the first time since the 2004 grand final and recognised only half of this year's squad.

"That's only a year and a bit since he left, and there were 21 players he didn't know," Williams said. "I suppose we took a look at our list, and we were one of the oldest lists last year, so that means over the last couple of years we've known we've had to make some changes.

"What it means is that we're about education and about putting the time in to make sure we have a group of players who can actually do what we want them to do. It's going to take time."

That said, the new boys are not expected to simply fill space. The cool Chaplin will spend some serious time in defence alongside Brad Symes and the adaptable Pettigrew.

Adam Thomson will get more midfield minutes, as will Jacob Surjan and Steven Salopek, who was out of contract when left out of Port's final finals side, but stayed.

"I actually saw an article recently on Brendon Goddard, and they were talking about the class of 2002 and how many games they've played," Williams said.

"Wells and Goddard had played 66 or something, and Salopek was next and he'd played half that. So we can be dissatisfied a little about how quickly it's gone, but the fact is that he got glandular fever and did his knee twice, and I'm not going to play him from his hospital bed.

"We really think he can play. We're looking forward to seeing what Sal can do this year. He'll get every opportunity to play."

Then there is Pearce, whose speedy feet were promoted temporarily from the rookie list last season, and for good at the end of the year. "I think he could be a gun," Williams said. "He's got that something special. I like him."

But Williams is not expecting any instant rewards. More than 10 years ago, he was in charge of an Essendon reserves team featuring Matthew Lloyd, Scott Lucas and Justin Blumfield.

He saw them play some encouraging games, but they also put in some shockers. That's why this year, for his team, is a "teaching season".

"If Matthew Lloyd's reading this, or Scott Lucas, they'd know they had some very bad days," Williams said.

"Lloydy would know he's had some days when he didn't get a kick. I've seen how they've turned out and I'm very proud of the levels they've got to, but in any given two- or three-week period you could look at them and say they were never going to make it, no way.

"We can expect some inconsistency. That's what you get with young players. If you understand about learning and trying to teach people new things, it takes some time, but the best thing about our players is they are genuinely going flat out for improvement.

"They don't waste time here.They don't muck around. We have fun, but we don't muck around."

Which is why Williams is looking to where he always does — September. He thinks Tredrea, Port's third captain, will become its best yet, because he wants to be, and that Shaun Burgoyne, starting his fifth season in the leadership group, will be an elite player by the end of this year.

Having not handled Josh Francou's return from a second knee reconstruction as well as he would have liked — not to mention the now-retired Primus — Williams thinks the onballer can be what he was. "He'll be very good for us. He had a pretty good year last year, and when you look back on it, the management of him and Matty last year was pretty difficult," Williams said.

"They were only going to improve if we gave them time, but at the same time we were losing games. You try and get it right. You try and manage it and I'm not sure playing in the SANFL would have been the best thing for those guys, either.

"Did we get it right? Probably not. It's OK to admit it, but at the time you think you're doing the right thing and giving it your best guess at the time. He'll be good. We hope he starts this year like he finished last year."

If there is a gap between Francou and his emerging replacements, said Williams, it is not because he has allowed his side to become misshaped, but because Nick Stevens, Josh Carr and even Paul Koulouriotis chose to go. Of his current crop of "middle-agers", Williams expects Domenic Cassisi to become more influential and recruits Nathan Lonie and Daniel Motlop, aged 23 and 22, to help fill the gap.

The coach has liked Lonie since the player's under-18 days; Motlop was popular off-season but a slippery-shouldered risk. So far, Williams is happy to have taken it. "I like players who can do special things. Daniel can," he said.

"He'll be interesting. Before Christmas we really had no idea as to how the gamble would go with his injuries. On one hand you're concerned and on the other, you know his potential, so you probably take that gamble with a player of his age.

"All I can say is that at this stage, we're very happy with the gamble we've taken."

Life at Alberton is more settled, too. The "nightmare" of installing a new off-field team after 10 people left post-premiership is over, and the 21 new faces have made sure the hunger is back, too.

Port Adelaide slid from first to sixth last season, and slid into sixth spot only just. But it was a season that told Williams his side would move up in 2006.

"I would argue that it was a positive year, and right now, we are so much more organised than we there this time last year," he said.

"The amount of times we got smashed and actually won the next week, the amount of times we got off the carpet. We didn't give up, we kept at it and we made the finals. If your bad year is finishing sixth, I'm thinking there would be a lot of teams that would be happy with that."

[Powerstufff]

Good article in general, once you filter out all the journalist's theatre references at the start and get down to Chocco's plain talking. This is the bit I find intriguing:
".......That said, the new boys are not expected to simply fill space. The cool Chaplin will spend some serious time in defence alongside Brad Symes and the adaptable Pettigrew......"Did I go to sleep and miss something with Symes and the way he has come into favour with Chocco? Suddenly he's almost first 22. I don't mind. In the two pre-season games I saw him in he looked cherry ripe for the big time. But short of injury/suspension an established regular must have to get the arse for Symes to play?

[Macca19]

Ill take it with a grain of salt at this stage. He has said he has to play youngsters before and hasnt. I guess we shall see.

Hopefully the younger guys like Pettigrew, Symes, White and Surjan can play some very good footy this year

[Ford Fairlane]

I'd have thought Koulouriotis choosing to go was a generous interpretation of history. A stronger case on that basis could have been made for Guerra.

[Powerstufff]

I'd have thought Koulouriotis choosing to go was a generous interpretation of history.....It may be a bit of a glimpse of things behind the teal curtain. Perhaps Koula didn't have 427 consecutive soft tissue injuries after all. Seems (comparatively) pretty resilient at Geelong.

[*koulagirl]

It may be a bit of a glimpse of things behind the teal curtain. Perhaps Koula didn't have 427 consecutive soft tissue injuries after all. Seems (comparatively) pretty resilient at Geelong.
Considering that Paul spent most of his last two years at Port actually playing for Westies I don't think you can really use that as much of an excuse, Powerstufff. Besides, not only is the training regime different down at Skilled, his body has changed since 2003 - you may or may not have noticed an increase in weight.

I'd have thought Koulouriotis choosing to go was a generous interpretation of history.
Ford Fairlane, this isn't the first time Mark Williams has said that Paul chose to leave. What I can gather from the media at the time, is that Paul was told he wasn't required and asked the club to look for trade. Even if Paul did make the original choice it's hard to believe that he had any option of staying at the club given that he wasn't given the opportunity to prove himself and circumstances were rather clearly against him.

[Ford Fairlane]

Ford Fairlane, this isn't the first time Mark Williams has said that Paul chose to leave. What I can gather from the media at the time, is that Paul was told he wasn't required and asked the club to look for trade. Even if Paul did make the original choice it's hard to believe that he had any option of staying at the club given that he wasn't given the opportunity to prove himself and circumstances were rather clearly against him.

When I said 'generous' I did mean Choco was interpreting in his favour. I recall the season before Koula was delisted Williams made it clear the only thing that saved him then was he was still contracted.

[Toots Hibbert]

I'm glad to see this admission on the management of Primus and Francou in there:-

"Did we get it right? Probably not. It's OK to admit it, but at the time you think you're doing the right thing and giving it your best guess at the time. He'll (Francou) be good. We hope he starts this year like he finished last year."

[*koulagirl]

When I said 'generous' I did mean Choco was interpreting in his favour. I recall the season before Koula was delisted Williams made it clear the only thing that saved him then was he was still contracted.

He did at that - and the only thing that would impress enough for a new contract would be getting at least 5 games. While Paul was named emergency more that many times... he never even travelled with the team. There's a story there... ;)

[Magpiespower]

Good read - Choco's honest as always.

Really looking forward to this year - promises to be very exciting. For all of you old enough to remember, this make up of this squad reminds me of Port circa 1986.

Why are we still talking about Koula? He wasn't good enough to get a game. Simple really.

[blackdiamond]

Why are we still talking about Koula? He wasn't good enough to get a game. Simple really.

Because there is one poster on Bigfooty who lives in a Paul Koulouriotis bubble.

[Powerstufff]

Considering that Paul spent most of his last two years at Port actually playing for Westies I don't think you can really use that as much of an excuse, Powerstufff....I think you misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm suggesting maybe he wasn't injured all the time, that maybe that was a smokescreen for some other reason he wasn't getting senior level time.

[Ford Fairlane]

Why are we still talking about Koula? He wasn't good enough to get a game. Simple really.

To be fair to *koulagirl, that's why we're talking about him ... the article (Williams) suggests he wanted to go home. The recollection of more than one of us here is that he was dead in the water with Port - and well before he was delisted. I don't think Choco can claim him in the same sentence as Stevens and Carr as reasons why we have a midfield hole of 23 something yo's.

[Powerstufff]

....Why are we still talking about Koula? He wasn't good enough to get a game. Simple really.He was good enough alright, did very well for West Adelaide. It was just one of those very frustrating times where it was hard for anyone to break into the main team and Cassissi edged in front for the available position. Imagine if Pr*ck Stevens and Josh Carr had stayed. We'd have lost all our developing midfielders. Cain Ackland was a similar story but in the ruck area.

[*PAF]

To be fair to *koulagirl, that's why we're talking about him ... the article (Williams) suggests he wanted to go home. The recollection of more than one of us here is that he was dead in the water with Port - and well before he was delisted. I don't think Choco can claim him in the same sentence as Stevens and Carr as reasons why we have a midfield hole of 23 something yo's.
If Koula had been at Port now he'd be getting games. At the time between his injuries and our strong team he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Choco is not one to give youngsters a game just for the sake of it. That IMO is one of his flaws. Sure we need to focus on winning every game, but giving your youngsters a chance to develop at afl level is extremely important.
We could be introducing youngsters and giving our older players much needed rests during the year. This would not only give our youngsters experience but help us with having our "best 22" fit and firing come finals time, something we have not always done.

Relying just about exclusively on SANFL "practice/experience" as we have done in the past is very flawed IMO.
Players get the wrong type of training both mental and physical (during games) in the years where they learn the most, and once they get past a certain age these learned "flaws/wrong attitudes" becomes permanent.
Also form in the SANFL does not necessarily equate to AFL form as some are not good at SANFL level yet great at AFL level with better players around them. This also works the other way around.

[Pred]

Because there is one poster on Bigfooty who lives in a Paul Koulouriotis bubble.:D.....

[Ford Fairlane]

If Koula had been at Port now he'd be getting games. At the time between his injuries and our strong team he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Choco is not one to give youngsters a game just for the sake of it. That IMO is one of his flaws. Sure we need to focus on winning every game, but giving your youngsters a chance to develop at afl level is extremely important.
We could be introducing youngsters and giving our older players much needed rests during the year. This would not only give our youngsters experience but help us with having our "best 22" fit and firing come finals time, something we have not always done.

Relying just about exclusively on SANFL "practice/experience" as we have done in the past is very flawed IMO.
Players get the wrong type of training both mental and physical (during games) in the years where they learn the most, and once they get past a certain age these learned "flaws/wrong attitudes" becomes permanent.
Also form in the SANFL does not necessarily equate to AFL form as some are not good at SANFL level yet great at AFL level with better players around them. This also works the other way around.

I agree with all of that, except one minor point about giving players a game for the sake of it. That shouldn't happen, and Choco is right when that's what he does ... you should show something to earn a spot. But too often players have shown something and for not enough reward. And that's when it gets frustrating. And yet sometimes, players impress him somehow and they're set.

[*PAF]

I agree with all of that, except one minor point about giving players a game for the sake of it. That shouldn't happen, and Choco is right when that's what he does ... you should show something to earn a spot. But too often players have shown something and for not enough reward. And that's when it gets frustrating. And yet sometimes, players impress him somehow and they're set.
Giving players a game for the sake of it was perhaps the wrong choice of words.
Making room for players to get some gametime during their crucial development years is a must IMO, but as you rightly pointed out only if they have shown they deserve that chance.
That IMO will have the double benefit of giving them proper experience of the type they require at a crucial time of their development plus giving older more experienced players a chance to get rid of niggling injuries before the finals come around.

[Ford Fairlane]

Here's hoping that this year he follows thru with giving meaningful game time to young players, as he suggests he will in the Age article, in positions they should be played in.

[*PAF]

Here's hoping that this year he follows thru with giving meaningful game time to young players, as he suggests he will in the Age article, in positions they should be played in.
Hear hear.

[*koulagirl]

I think you misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm suggesting maybe he wasn't injured all the time, that maybe that was a smokescreen for some other reason he wasn't getting senior level time.

When he was injured he was actually injured. It's just that he wasn't injured in 2003 when he was pushing for selection and didn't get it. When he was out for the year in 2001 he was injured. He was just not selected - injury wasn't an excuse or a reason.

[*koulagirl]

To be fair to *koulagirl, that's why we're talking about him ... the article (Williams) suggests he wanted to go home. The recollection of more than one of us here is that he was dead in the water with Port - and well before he was delisted. I don't think Choco can claim him in the same sentence as Stevens and Carr as reasons why we have a midfield hole of 23 something yo's.

Well no. Stevens and Carr were actually playing and their departures meant that Port's depth was depleted with the second string suddenly promoted to first string, and then there isn't depth to replace or support them.
Paul was in that third string which was being cycled out (didn't agree, still don't) and his departure helped create that lack of depth, and with so many players delisted around that time Port have lots of young players with little experience, and very few in that middle sphere of some experience but not regular players in the 22.

[*koulagirl]

Because there is one poster on Bigfooty who lives in a Paul Koulouriotis bubble.

You wouldn't be talking about me would you?

I should point out that I didn't bring him up in this thread.

Should also point out that Paul didn't ask to go home, he was told he had just played his best year so far and was no longer required at the club.

[blackdiamond]

You wouldn't be talking about me would you?

I should point out that I didn't bring him up in this thread.

Should also point out that Paul didn't ask to go home, he was told he had just played his best year so far and was no longer required at the club.

No I was talking about FF, only you would be so vain to think that every time I speak of Paul Koulouriotis it is really about you.

You do surprise me though, its like you do a Koulouriotis search every time you log on.

I do agree with you that he was told to go but at the same time I don't think he woud have really added much to our current side.

What we are missing is the Josh Carr type of midfielder and Im not sure we have that player on our list yet. He may well be a first or second year player (its too early to tell) but Koulouriotis was never going to be the player to fill our greatest needs on the midfield.

[*koulagirl]

No I was talking about FF, only you would be so vain to think that every time I speak of Paul Koulouriotis it is really about you.

Had I assumed you were speaking about me I would have made a smart comment rather than asking nicely.

You do surprise me though, its like you do a Koulouriotis search every time you log on.

I don't. I saw the article before I went to bed and then came in here when I got up and thought I'd see what you people were saying about it.

I do agree with you that he was told to go but at the same time I don't think he woud have really added much to our current side.

What we are missing is the Josh Carr type of midfielder and Im not sure we have that player on our list yet. He may well be a first or second year player (its too early to tell) but Koulouriotis was never going to be the player to fill our greatest needs on the midfield.

Especially when he doesn't play in the midfield. He was never given a chance to show what else he could contribute to the Port side.

[blackdiamond]

Had I assumed you were speaking about me I would have made a smart comment rather than asking nicely.

You should have made a smart comment. ;)

[*koulagirl]

You should have made a smart comment. ;)

But where's the fun in that? You might not have understood it.

[Macca19]

Koula would be getting games for us now, but at the time he couldnt and probably still wouldnt have if Nick and Josh were still here. Yes he played every game (or close enough) in 2003 with Westies...and although consistent enough, he didnt really go through a purple patch of top notch form to break into the side. Considering Brett Ebert won a Magarey that year and didnt get a look in, Paul stood no hope...especially not in that outside-ish type role.

Its good that he has made a good attempt of it at Geelong and he deserves credit for getting into it after his confidence was probably all shot with us.

[Pinepower]

It seems to me that there is a group of 5 or 6 players on each team list that never seem to get a game. Koula was one on our list and I can never figure out why this happens.

Yet some players are playing even when a week off would recharge the batteries would be beneficial.

If they are on a list then they must have showed promise at some stage to be drafted.

I think I feel sorry for this group as nobody knows if they would have made the grade if they had been given a chance.

It must also be devastating to them to play well in the SANFL and train hard and still not get picked and then they would question themselves.

I do not have a solution just wondering.

[portentous]

Koula wasn't good enough then-and he still isn't. Cassisi and Kane Cornes are both miles ahead of him.

Hope he does well at the cats, but he's not missed here.

[Powerstufff]

It seems to me that there is a group of 5 or 6 players on each team list that never seem to get a game. Koula was one on our list and I can never figure out why this happens.

Yet some players are playing even when a week off would recharge the batteries would be beneficial.

If they are on a list then they must have showed promise at some stage to be drafted.

I think I feel sorry for this group as nobody knows if they would have made the grade if they had been given a chance.

It must also be devastating to them to play well in the SANFL and train hard and still not get picked and then they would question themselves.

I do not have a solution just wondering.If we could concentrate our 'seconds' in a team like the Victorians do it might help keep an eye on them and make them feel part of the main game. But we can't.

[blackdiamond]

I struggle to see how we could fit Koula in our present side and Im still struggling to see how Ebert can make it in our Round 1 side as well, this is with Francou and Kingsley missing.

[*koulagirl]

I struggle to see how we could fit Koula in our present side and Im still struggling to see how Ebert can make it in our Round 1 side as well, this is with Francou and Kingsley missing.

I didn't think this was about if he could fit into your side now but the circumstances of his departure??

Koula would be getting games for us now, but at the time he couldnt and probably still wouldnt have if Nick and Josh were still here. Yes he played every game (or close enough) in 2003 with Westies...and although consistent enough, he didnt really go through a purple patch of top notch form to break into the side. Considering Brett Ebert won a Magarey that year and didnt get a look in, Paul stood no hope...especially not in that outside-ish type role.

Its good that he has made a good attempt of it at Geelong and he deserves credit for getting into it after his confidence was probably all shot with us.

Paul made emergency more than Brett did that year.
However I can't really talk about comparing the both as they were in different circumstances at the time and I know that there were some hard feelings there about one or two incidents.

[Malibu#27]

I certainly hope I never see the day where Tex Wanganeen and Koula are both mentioned in the same thread re selection and "who would be making the side right now".

That aside Choco makes a valid point and one hes made before .... a couple top line midfielders departed in that age bracket which should be coming to the fore now. Koula ? ... I suspect Choco was just throwing names out there..... and of that age bracket Koula has probably been as OK as anyone that has left (behind the obvious two of course).

[blackdiamond]

I didn't think this was about if he could fit into your side now but the circumstances of his departure??

My response was more to do with Macca's assessment that he would now be in the side, just like portentous I still can't see him making our starting 22.

[PJ Power]

For all the quotes and promises to play the youth, I will wait until the round 1 side is selected before reading too much into it.

Right now, Ebert, Salopek, Lonie, Thurstans, Pettigrew and Symes are fighting it out for the last four positions in our first selected 22 for 2006. I haven't given Shattock or Surjan the benefit of being in that group based on their non-appearance in our last trial.

If I was selecting, the youngest 4 would be the ones selected: Ebo and Sal to help out in the midfield, Pettigrew to play as the third tall forward as he did in the Kangaroos final and Symes to get first go at a HBF.

Neither Lonie or Thurstans have in my mind done enough in the preseason to keep them in the side ahead of the younger players I mentioned.

What is the bet, however, that both of those two are picked - probably at the expense of Ebert and Symes.

[Ford Fairlane]

This is a thought that needs a bit of work, but could open some debate ... there is agreement that we need to introduce youth and that we've lost a fair bit out of the midfield in recent years and that needs work (altho there's also some agreement that the midfield in the first half dozen positions could be fairly strong - with the Cornes x 2, Burgoynes x 2, Cassisi etc). But debate seems to mostly centre on Lonie/Symes, Thurstans/Bishop whatever. The question is, should this be the season we look to some deeper cuts to bring in the likes of Thomson, Eckermann, Ezard, Symes, Surjan etc ... maybe even Salopek and Ebert given there are some concerns a side could conceivably be picked that leaves them out.

So the question marks could be around players like Mahoney, Dew, Kingsley, Francou (when fit) I'd even question whether Wanganeen needs to be played every game - basically the guys that we know will value add to the future of the side. And let's say we're crappily placed at mid point, say 5-6 or 4-7 - do we still keep picking him or let him gracefully retire - you know Wangas gives 110% every week, does he need to be battered for a lost cause? Is Cassisi a genuine game breaking midfielder, or better suited to a tagging or HBF role? So that could open another midfield spot (but create more debate about the small defender positions).

If we look like we're going to be a premiership contender then the young guys on the fringe will struggle to get a game in any significant amount ... and fair enough because the team will be performing well. But if it's not, then you'd have to say some of the players we assume to be automatic inclusions aren't better than their opposition and might have to make way to see if the young guys add more and have more upside.

[Porthos]

There's no point going into a season trying to lose. Thats un-Port Adelaide.

I think all we really want are two stages of development.
1. Guys that should be in the side right now - a couple of Symes, Surj etc.
2. Guys to bring into the side if we are sucking at the midpoint - all of them.

I think Mahoney adds massive value to the side, so I'd keep him in. His work ethic is exactly what the young guys need to see in action. Kingsley, well, there's not a lot of value now that he's injured. Francou similar, though if he's good to go early we should play him...but he'd be phased out at the midpoint if we suck.

Dew is an interesting one. Not sure what I think on that issue.

[Powerstufff]

....The question is, should this be the season we look to some deeper cuts to bring in the likes of Thomson, Eckermann, Ezard, Symes, Surjan etc ... maybe even Salopek and Ebert given there are some concerns a side could conceivably be picked that leaves them out.

So the question marks could be around players like Mahoney, Dew, Kingsley, Francou (when fit) .......Looking globally at the whole 22 H&A rounds I'd say yes, make cuts give the 2nd tier guys serious game time. But looking match by match it's a harder proposition. To take a team you believe is not your strongest into a match for the sake of experience is a luxury generally reserved for bottom 4 sides late in the season. Plus for every kid you motivate there is a more experienced player who kicks his locker door in. Still in general I agree.
.....I'd even question whether Wanganeen needs to be played every game - basically the guys that we know will value add to the future of the side. And let's say we're crappily placed at mid point, say 5-6 or 4-7 - do we still keep picking him or let him gracefully retire - you know Wangas gives 110% every week, does he need to be battered for a lost cause? ......Wanganeen need only play this week, to give us the max chance of winning our first home game, and to clock up his 300th match and become an AFL Life Member. Apart from that he is a luxury and should only be used when we have to. If we are alive as the season goes on and his skills would be the difference between making finals or not then bring him in. If we make the finals he's an automatic pick. Otherwise let him help Tim and jack down with the Maggies.
.........If we look like we're going to be a premiership contender then the young guys on the fringe will struggle to get a game in any significant amount ... and fair enough because the team will be performing well. But if it's not, then you'd have to say some of the players we assume to be automatic inclusions aren't better than their opposition and might have to make way to see if the young guys add more and have more upside.Yep.

[MrMeaner]

Otherwise let him help Tim and jack down with the Maggies.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about seeing Gav paying for much of the season for the Maggies. I would think that he could play much of the season, resting him for a few games (rather than sending him back to the 'twos') throughout the year.

[Sandola]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about seeing Gav paying for much of the season for the Maggies. I would think that he could play much of the season, resting him for a few games (rather than sending him back to the 'twos') throughout the year.
For us, you mean. Yes, and if he only plays 1/4 games, that's ok. Mahoney and Wanganeen should both be there to show the youngsters how it's done. (And help win us a few games in the process.) If Francou is genuinely fit, he's also in this category, but if he isn't, we should not attempt a repeat of last year.

[Ford Fairlane]

As I said, it's a thought in progress. I wasn't suggesting we don't go out there to win, nor do we just populate the side with young players, but we critically evaluate some of the players we assume to be automatic selections and consider whether younger players could do a better job or are a better fit for what we need. It was really about continually improving the side with an eye to the future.

[Toots Hibbert]

As I said, it's a thought in progress. I wasn't suggesting we don't go out there to win, nor do we just populate the side with young players, but we critically evaluate some of the players we assume to be automatic selections and consider whether younger players could do a better job or are a better fit for what we need. It was really about continually improving the side with an eye to the future.
I agree with your general point which I think really is an argument against gold passes but I don't think Mahoney and Dew should even come under scrutiny. These are guys with at least 3 and 5 years respectively of senior football left in them. They both produce on a consistent basis and should be automatic selections at this point. They would need to have a loss of form of a period of about a month before I'd think of dropping them.

[Powerstufff]

I agree with your general point which I think really is an argument against gold passes but I don't think Mahoney and Dew should even come under scrutiny......FF wasn't talking about gold passes as I understand it. That is another issue.
IMO the question is (given most of us accept we are unlikey to win the GF) do we deliberately send out a less than optimal team a few times this year to invest in making ourselves competitive next year or the year after. It is a no-brainer to pick your best 22. However to leave Mahoney, Dew or any other player out while yet acknowledging they deserve to be in is a tricky thing to manage within the team and even harder to get the fans to accept.

[Ford Fairlane]

We were Premiers in 2004. In 2005 we barely scraped into the 8 with 11 wins. Offensively we had our worst season since 2000. Defensively we had our worst season since 2000 and the second worst in our time in the AFL. We suffered the biggest defeat in the history of the Port Adelaide Football Club. We lost a final to Adelaide by 85 points and kicked only 5 goals - and that wasn't the only time we kicked a crap score.

Now Toots, can you look at those stats and seriously tell me that not everybody on the list should be under scrutiny?

[Ford Fairlane]

FF wasn't talking about gold passes as I understand it. That is another issue.
IMO the question is (given most of us accept we are unlikey to win the GF) do we deliberately send out a less than optimal team a few times this year to invest in making ourselves competitive next year or the year after. It is a no-brainer to pick your best 22. However to leave Mahoney, Dew or any other player out while yet acknowledging they deserve to be in is a tricky thing to manage within the team and even harder to get the fans to accept.

That's probably not quite it. I'm thinking pick a side which might appear sub-optimal based on reputation, but really it's finding out what might realistically be the best 22. I'm not saying pick young players for the sake of it, but pick ones who you think are a real chance to produce close or better to the player they'd be replacing.

[Macca19]

Essentially Francou should be being phased out anyway. If he has another hot/cold/hot/cold year like last year then really we need to start giving Cassisi, Salopek and Thomson extended time in that inside role. I still think Cassisi would be great as an inside midfielder in the Francou mould (I think he has the same ability Francou has in making it look like everyone is going in slow motion at a stoppage).

Mahoney I think has done more than enough to be considered a definate for at least the first 4 weeks of the season. Ditto Dew. If they lose a lot of form then of course they have to be considered droppable like everyone else, but right now they would be in the first 10 picked in the side each week.

Kingsley is another that when fit and played in the middle adds great value to the side, but he too needs to be phased out at some point in the next two seasons.

It would be sad to see Gav run around at the Magpies for half the year. Unless he is in utterly terrible form, he shouldnt be dropped. Sure give him rest weeks, but not dropped to the twos.

In my opinion this year we need to run the team like an olden days football club. If a reserves player is in good form, they need to be promoted. As Porthos has said, there are a couple of players that really need to be fast tracked into the side over the next two years. Given the possibility we could struggle this year, the club cant afford to take a slowly slowly approach to development like it has in the past. The "senior youngsters" need to be given proper oppurtunity right now.

[Porthos]

Kingsley is another that when fit and played in the middle adds great value to the side, but he too needs to be phased out at some point in the next two seasons.As much as I like Kingers, I think this needs to be his last year. Right now his role is like Schoey's was a couple of years ago - one that we could and should be playing a junior in.

[Ford Fairlane]

Certainly Gav shouldn't be playing SANFL. My only thought there was rest weeks and if the season turned pear shaped, I'd hate to see his body getting a battering for no real reason.

[oporto]

Given the possibility we could struggle this year, the club cant afford to take a slowly slowly approach to development like it has in the past. The "senior youngsters" need to be given proper oppurtunity right now.

Couldn't agree more...all or nothing approach is what is needed right now NOT half way through the season. From what I have seen at training & during pre season matches, I have ultimate faith in the ability of our young brigade to follow coaching instructions.

All that is needed is experience (not 5 minutes a quarter) rather 5 games in a row.

[Toots Hibbert]

...Now Toots, can you look at those stats and seriously tell me that not everybody on the list should be under scrutiny?

I think you're looking all the time at how the side is going and trying to find improvements. I don't think you chop and change the side continuously though, moving players in or out on the basis of their performance the week before. There are core players in the side who you don't drop after a week or two of underperforming because you know they are likely to play well sooner rather than later. Players who are in the last couple of years of their careers should expect to get less leeway if there are young guys who need to get games under their belt. I think Dew and Mahoney are in that core group of players with a proven track record and with a fair number of years still to play who should not be under threat on a weekly basis. Lade, Brogan, the Corneses and Burgoynes, Cassisi, Tredrea of course would be in that group too.

What I think was done poorly last year was bringing players back from injury straight into the side. Not just Primus and Francou but others too. If a player is out injured for a few weeks and someone else has stepped into their spot and is performing well then the injured player should have to fight their way back in. They should have to prove their form in the two's first and their replacement in the AFL side be underperforming. Too my mind that's just fair to a player who's doing well and also is an encouragement to go hell for leather to claim that elusive spot rather than having the feeling you're just keeping someone else's seat warm.

Edit:- Just reading Maccas last post which appeared while I was writing this, I think he has just said more elegantly what I've was trying to express. I'm with Porthos though that Kingers is one of those older players who you're trying to find a replacement for - even though like Porthos I admire Kingers).

On Gav I think it would be an insult to play him in the Magpies unless he wants to do it. He is meant to be an impact player and have a lighter workload. Putting him back to the PAMFC when he's not selected for the Power is not giving him a lighter workload.

[Ford Fairlane]

A simple yes or no would've sufficed ... ;)

And I should point out, this isn't a Dew or Mahoney witch hunt, it's an overall review of how to point the team in the right direction. They just happened to be a couple of names that I'd put below the top tier, in a vulnerable group. Nor was I suggesting these guys should all be dropped from the outset. Obviously the proven senior players deserve first crack at it. I hope they have great years and underpin a successful year for us.

But they are all under scrutiny. Sure there were issues with returning guys from injury, but there were issues of players getting way too comfortable knowing they wouldn't be dropped because they had the medallion (or Choco thought they should have). There were a lot of issues that started well before the season itself and played out not entirely unexpectedly.

I get the impression I'd be more ruthless in a quicker space of time than some here. C'est la vie. But no I wouldn't chop and change the side week in week out either. I've followed footy long enough to know that doesn't work. But the simple fact is last year was a disaster, and we don't rate in any tipster's scenarios this year (other than maybe Dermie which is worrying in itself). We hoisted the white flag way too easy last year, and even in trial games this year we've shown a capacity to cough up a string of goals in a row. So maybe we need to take off the blinkers when assessing some players if we don't perform up to scratch again. Maybe ask yourself what you would think of player X if he played for the crows ... ;)

[Macca19]

Hopefully those second stringers like Dew and Mahoney know that their spot in the side isnt 100% guaranteed.

Ive actually become quite excited about this season. I have no idea what is going to happen.

[Sandola]

Hopefully those second stringers like Dew and Mahoney know that their spot in the side isnt 100% guaranteed.

Ive actually become quite excited about this season. I have no idea what is going to happen.
Someone, I think it's Sheedy, is saying that, going in, this is the most even season ever. (Ever, he sez!) That idea is becoming the conventional wisdom over here in Melbourne.

Good news for us, really. We are an unknown quantity, and it's better for our side, at least psychologically, if we aren't totally written off in advance.

Yeh, I'm pretty sure we're going to be surprised a few times this year. I just hope we're occasionally surprised and delighted.

Cannot wait.

[Porthos]

Hopefully those second stringers like Dew and Mahoney know that their spot in the side isnt 100% guaranteed.

Ive actually become quite excited about this season. I have no idea what is going to happen.

I'm hoping our worst case scenario is more like 1998 than 2000.

[PJ Power]

The other significant factor with Dew and Mahoney is their age: they both have about 3 years before they reach 30 and so are in only a small group of players on our list aged between 25-30 who are going to be important to ensure a smooth transition between the parting of the veterans and the naissance of the youth.

I think if you need to highlight the 3-4 under pressure to keep their spots, they would be Bish, Kingers and Francou.
Unless those players are in good, consistent form (when fit), playing at their best, they should not be considered as definites by the selectors, and should make way for in form younger players.

Of the mid-aged players who should definitely not be given any favours in selection, Shattock and Lonie are at the top of that list. They have earned no credits and in all seriousness have some limitations in the way they play (based on past records at other clubs).

[Ford Fairlane]

Mahoney turns 30 next year. And Choco's comment on him is interesting:

MARK WILLIAMS: Josh Mahoney plays best when he’s on the edge. His form at the end of the year was outstanding and we look for that consistently through the whole year.

Yes, there's also pressure on Francou and Kingsley ... but neither are playing this weekend and Thomson, Eckermann, Ezard, Surjan and quite possibly Ebert and Symes won't be either. They're easy targets, like Bishop. But in the end Bishop isn't stopping us rebuilding our midfield. In fact his presence is probably helping so Chad can go on ball. Or Shaun.

[PJ Power]

Mahoney turns 30 next year. And Choco's comment on him is interesting:



Yes, there's also pressure on Francou and Kingsley ... but neither are playing this weekend and Thomson, Eckermann, Ezard, Surjan and quite possibly Ebert and Symes won't be either. They're easy targets, like Bishop. But in the end Bishop isn't stopping us rebuilding our midfield. In fact his presence is probably helping so Chad can go on ball. Or Shaun.

Stand corrected on Josh Mahoney, FF.

I think playing 6-7 sub50 gamers in round one is enough. We do need to keep an eye on making the eight if possible. Thomson, Eckerman, Ezard, even Surjan will not be done a disservice by being consistently good at SANFL at this stage of the year.

Priorities are to develop Ebert and Salopek as midfielders, Symes and Chaplin on the HBF, White up forward and Pettigrew and Pearce in whatever position they can fill. That is seven "fringe" youngsters for round 1. Plenty!

Our midfield is not as dire as the "Ruch" and others believe, if Salopek and Ebert can fulfil their promise.
Chad, Kane, Dom, JB and Peter could play together in the midfield for the next 4 years (would take Senior B to 32).
Bring along Ebert and Sal this year. Thomson and Eckers to get 8-12 games as injuries/form permits.
Wangas moves on next year. That becomes a regular spot for Thomson.
Maybe in 2007, Bishop makes way and Chad returns to defence, so that Eckers can come in as well.
When Walsh and Wilson are ready to go in 2008-9 perhaps, then Lower and Thomas have had two years in the SANFL (playing the odd AFL game) and hopefully Symes, Pettigrew and Chaplin have close to 50 AFL games under their belts to guide them.

In the meantime, there will be injuries, form drops, suspensions, unknown parameters that open up occasional spots for the kids. If an Ebert stagnates despite opportunities, then in comes another.

The key is not to hold up young guys with "ordinary" players: the Cochranes, Shattocks etc of this world, who don't benefit the team's short-term and longterm results.

[PJ Power]

BTW, Lower's broken thumb snuck up on me. Five weeks on the sidelines.
We seem to have started this year with a similar looking injury list to the last two.
Let's hope we don't walk out of round 1 with the same casualty burden as the corresponding game last year.

[Ford Fairlane]

Stand corrected on Josh Mahoney, FF.

I think playing 6-7 sub50 gamers in round one is enough. We do need to keep an eye on making the eight if possible. Thomson, Eckerman, Ezard, even Surjan will not be done a disservice by being consistently good at SANFL at this stage of the year.

Priorities are to develop Ebert and Salopek as midfielders, Symes and Chaplin on the HBF, White up forward and Pettigrew and Pearce in whatever position they can fill. That is seven "fringe" youngsters for round 1. Plenty!

Our midfield is not as dire as the "Ruch" and others believe, if Salopek and Ebert can fulfil their promise.
Chad, Kane, Dom, JB and Peter could play together in the midfield for the next 4 years (would take Senior B to 32).
Bring along Ebert and Sal this year. Thomson and Eckers to get 8-12 games as injuries/form permits.
Wangas moves on next year. That becomes a regular spot for Thomson.
Maybe in 2007, Bishop makes way and Chad returns to defence, so that Eckers can come in as well.
When Walsh and Wilson are ready to go in 2008-9 perhaps, then Lower and Thomas have had two years in the SANFL (playing the odd AFL game) and hopefully Symes, Pettigrew and Chaplin have close to 50 AFL games under their belts to guide them.

In the meantime, there will be injuries, form drops, suspensions, unknown parameters that open up occasional spots for the kids. If an Ebert stagnates despite opportunities, then in comes another.

The key is not to hold up young guys with "ordinary" players: the Cochranes, Shattocks etc of this world, who don't benefit the team's short-term and longterm results.

As I've said, I'm not about fielding uncompetitive sides full of juniors. The senior players deserve first crack at it. But if the season starts to limp along then play the kids (certainly not the blockers, altho as Shattock is my buddy player, I won't classify him as such ;) ). If the side is rocking along with established players - and by that I mean clearly top 4 material, not clinging to the periphery of the 8 (or worse) - more power to them (pardon the pun) and I'll be as happy as anyone. But if not ... well I think we have to accept that if we want our way and see young kids played for meaningful game time some players that we hold a soft spot for (as well as some we would more readily sacrifice) are going to be under the pump.

Being consistenly good at SANFL should mean getting AFL games. I'm with *PAF on this, that there's only so much development/preparation the SANFL offers budding AFL players, and as Macca said, reward good form. On that point, a close eye should be kept on the senior players who burn us away from AAMI, but are hometown heroes when it looks like their spots are on the line. Blight made the point commentating that clubs record the form of those sort of players. Based on our 2005 form, we had a few of those too. Too often Choco forgave a belting interstate when it was followed up by any sort of win in the comforts of home.

Our midfield at the moment is mediocre, in the literal sense of the word, not the distorted. It's not crap, but it's not great ... it's middle of the road. With the loss of Stevens, Carr, James, Francou (at his peak), even Hardwick in quick succession it's sustained too many hits to be anything else. The only genuine game breaker in there as a proven midfielder is Peter Burgoyne - and he's subject to brain fade. Chad and JB will add some unique qualities, but won't necessarily be permanent fixtures. Sal and Ebo I hope will. But I'd be casting the net wider, seeing who can be added to the pool ... it's just a matter of how accelerated this process becomes.

I am concerned by the following quote from the tiser (http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/footy/story_page/0,8747,18627348%255E25397,00.html)

The Power yesterday unveiled the forward set-up it is likely to use against the Kangaroos with Brendon Lade, White and Thurstans as the tall forwards and Pearce, Motlop, Josh Mahoney and Brett Ebert being used as small forwards. One of these is likely to start on the bench.

It's not just the players that have to learn ... :(

[portentous]

I'd much rather see Wangas play as a small forward than Ebo. Ebo's either a midfielder, or he's not in the 22 IMO.

[johnnypanther]

your club's position and your discussions and assessments of your players etc on this thread and other similar ones are classically reminiscent of where we (AFC) were at in March of last year and we had virtually identical discussions - just change the club and player names

[*PAF]

Players will get games based on merit.
http://www.abc.net.au/afl/2005/galleries/round12/images/13.jpg

No child will live in poverty.
http://www.saxton.com.au/saxton_db_data/images/Hawke_Bob.jpg

The Americans are not in Baghdad.
http://www.iraqwarveterans.org/images/iraq/free/cards/baghdad-bob.jpg

[Ford Fairlane]

Phil Smyth hasn't been listening to the beat of his neighbour's new drum ... the 6ers are rumoured to be after Lanard Copeland and Brett Wheeler :eek:

[Ford Fairlane]

Nice work *PAF ... :D


I did not have sexual relations with that woman
http://www.vw.cc.va.us/vwhansd/HIS122/Images/BillClinton.jpg

[*PAF]

Nice work *PAF ... :D


I did not have sexual relations with that woman
http://www.vw.cc.va.us/vwhansd/HIS122/Images/BillClinton.jpg
Your piccy breaches American national security by the looks of it, or rather lack of. :D

I do not troll this board.
http://www.arc.org.uk/help_us/images/noddy.jpg

[noddy]

Your piccy breaches American national security by the looks of it, or rather lack of. :D

I do not troll this board.
http://www.arc.org.uk/help_us/images/noddy.jpg


I like it, I like it !!!!

You old dog you ;)