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What is your deal with Jim Morrison, the guy is a musical genius. Well he didnt play any instruments but he was a lyrical genius. Some classics include Riders on the Storm, Break on through to the Other Side, La Woman, The End, Spanish Caravan etc etc the list goes on and on. The guy was a legend.
lioness
11 Dec 2001, 21:40
Yeah and when he had his famous run-in with Beach Boy Dennis Wilson at the Whiskey-A-Go-Go or however u spell it. ;)
Shinboners
11 Dec 2001, 21:47
After reading a selection of Jimbo's lyrics and poetry, I just don't think he deserves the accolades that he gets. It's just shallow drivel disguised with paper thin symbolism. Any self-centred, angst ridden, spotty faced sixteen year old with a pen, paper, and maybe a gram of hash could write like Jimbo.
But hey, if you find there's something special about Jimbo's words, then good for you. As for me, well, I don't think I can make my views on him any clearer.
Geez Jod! Can't you just accept that some people like some musicians, whereas others will not and will have quite valid reasons for doing so, without having to feel marginalised by those who differ in opinion?
From all appearances on this site, you seem to think, that if someone doesn't like the same musicians that you like, or feel exactly the same way about music that you do, that you are obliged to argue them down, and put them in their place, through your "better knowledge" (which seemingly consists of second-hand opinions).
Shinboners
11 Dec 2001, 22:05
By the way Jod. The mere listing of a bunch of songs as evidence of the quality of your favoured acts is based on the (incorrect) assumption that the person reading feels the same way about those songs that you do. By listing down those songs by the Doors, you might have thought that I would read it and go, "WHOA! My God, those songs....yeah, Jod is right....quality right through...what the heck was I thinking!". But unfortunately for your method of argument, I don't have the same view as you do. So that list of songs merely reminded me of just how bad and over-rated that Jimbo's lyrics (and the Doors for that matter) are.
Geez boys....calm down i was looking for his opinion on why he thought Jim Morrison was crap..thought his reason was a little thin and i would love to see the great shinners write something better.....after all anyone can write better than Jim Morrison right?
People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down
When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're....straange..yeah
The movie will begin in 5 moments...
The mindless voice announced
All those unseated will await the next show
We filed slowly, languidly into the hall
The auditorium was vast and silent
As we seated and were darkened the voice continued
The program for this evening is not new, you've seen this entertainment through and through, you've seen your birth, your life, your death you might recall all of the rest..Did you have a good world when you died.....enough to base a movie on.
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 07:45
Originally posted by jod23
Geez boys....calm down i was looking for his opinion on why he thought Jim Morrison was crap..thought his reason was a little thin and i would love to see the great shinners write something better.....after all anyone can write better than Jim Morrison right?
I didn't say that I could write something better. My point was that I think that Jimbo is over-rated. Hell, I reckon if a footballer is over-rated, I'll say so and if I make a comment that my mum can play footy better than the said useless footballer, well.....can you see my point?
As for my reasoning for not rating Jimbo's lyrics, well, it's just an opinion. You've never stated why you think Jimbo's lyrics are so good. The best you can do is just post them without any explanation of why you think they're good.
I reckon people like Stephin Merritt, Stuart Murdoch, Marty Donald, Neil Tennant, Morrissey, Tom Waits, Joe Pernice, Ryan Adams, Amelia Fletcher and Lou Reed all write better lyrics than Jimbo. On the other hand, whilst I've been a fan of Nick Cave and many people seem to be in awe of his lyrics, I don't think Cave's lyrics deserve the praise that some are willing to give for them. But I should give a very brief explanation on why I think these people are good lyricists. Merritt is brilliant at manipulating seemingly cliched ideas and twisting them around (try Magnetic Fields "69 Love Songs"), Murdoch is a great story teller (try Belle and Sebastian's "Tigermilk"), Donald has always been able to do great plays on words and tell stories of everyday Melbourne life (try Lucksmiths "A Good Kind Of Nervous"), Tennant has always had a wicked sense of humour (try Pet Shop Boys "Behaviour"), Morrissey wrote lyrics that for me as a teenager, I knew exactly what he meant (try the Smiths "The Queen Is Dead"), Tom Waits has written some of the most heart breaking lyrics I've ever come across (try anything....mind his gravelly voice though...it's not for everyone), Joe Pernice and Ryan Adams write lyrics that are almost too personal, it's like reading someone's diary (try Scud Mountain Boys "Massachussets" and Whiskeytown "Pneumonia"), Amelia Fletcher is like a teenage school girl telling her friends about her boyfriend (try Heavenly "Heavenly Versus Satan), and Lou Reed wrote about things in the 60s that no-one else seemed to want to write about (try the Velvet Underground and Nico "Banana" album).
And in the end, the quality of lyrics is just personal opinion, isn't it? How can you really say that Jimbo is a better lyricist than Stuart Murdoch? I think Murdoch craps all over Jimbo. You'll probably think the opposite. But there is no way of making an objective measurement. However, I will add that I've read Morrison and Murdoch (and the others) and can make a comparison based on what I think makes a good writer/lyricist, whilst I doubt you've ever read the lyrics of most of the people I've mentioned above. You might like Murdoch or you might hate him...that's up to you.
By the way, why do you seem to take it so personally if people disagree with you? On the music boards, the only times that debate gets heated is when you're involved. Check the metal threads.....there is plenty of disagreement on who likes what, but people on those threads seem to respect the idea that not everyone will like the same thing.
The Hitman
12 Dec 2001, 08:57
I take a walk outside. I'm surrounded by some kids at play.
I can feel their laughter, so why do I sear?
And twisted thoughts that spin around my head...
I'm spinning...I'm spinning...
How quick the sun can drop away.
And now my bitter hands cradle broken glass,
Of what was everything.
All the pictures have all been washed in black...
...tattooed everything.
All the love gone bad turned my world to black...
...tattooed all I see...all that I am...all I'll be.
I know someday you'll have a beautiful life,
I know you'll be a star in somebody else's sky,
But why, why, why can't it be, can't it be mine?
Black - Pearl Jam
Mr Vedder at his best... ;)
The Hitman
Danny Chook Fan Club
12 Dec 2001, 09:41
Jim Morrison = vastly overrated.
Fat Red
12 Dec 2001, 09:51
Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
Jim Morrison = vastly overrated.
I agree, although more from distaste than analysis of lyric quality.
I like the Doors. Their lyrics suited both their musical style and the vibe of the time.
Jim Morrison a poet? Maybe, maybe not. But he's sure as hell better than other self-professed poets like Jewel!!! :eek:
I agree with Shinner's bands that demonstrate truly great lyrics. Of course FIGJAM's post wouldn't be complete without mention of the following band:
Street Spirit
Rows of houses, all bearing down on me
I can feel their blue hands touching me
All these things into position
All these things we'll one day swallow whole
And fade out again and fade out
This machine will, will not communicate
These thoughts and the strain I am under
Be a world child, form a circle
Before we all go under
And fade out again and fade out again
Cracked eggs, dead birds
Scream as they fight for life
I can feel death, can see its beady eyes
All these things into position
All these things we'll one day swallow whole
And fade out again and fade out again
Immerse your soul in love
IMMERSE YOUR SOUL IN LOVE
Thom Yorke, Radiohead - 1995.
The greatest last line to a song, and for that matter, an album EVER!!!!!!!!!!
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 15:03
Originally posted by jod23
People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
etc. etc. etc.
blah blah blah
......so, Jimbo has woken up after a particularly bad LSD trip, and after wandering around town for an hour or two, he's still hallucinating. Even worse (for humanity), he's decided to tell us all about it.
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 15:10
Originally posted by jod23
The movie will begin in 5 moments...
The mindless voice announced
blah blah blah
See what I mean about "shallow drivel disguised with paper thin symbolism".
Deconstructing the whole thing, what Jimbo seems to be asking is, "Well, was your life worth living? Did you make your mark on the world?". But to make himself sound important (and deep and meaningful), he adds symbolism, ie. life = movie.
But of course, it can't be any old general release movie.....y'know, like American Pie 2 or Harry Potter.....nup....he makes it sound like one of those Czech arthouse films that they show at the St.Kilda film festival.....all those silent people in the auditorium....didn't Jimbo realise that they were all trying to stay awake after watching one of those Romanian art house films?
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 15:20
Originally posted by FIGJAM
Jim Morrison a poet? Maybe, maybe not. But he's sure as hell better than other self-professed poets like Jewel!!! :eek:
I agree with Shinner's bands that demonstrate truly great lyrics. Of course FIGJAM's post wouldn't be complete without mention of the following band:
Street Spirit
Immerse your soul in love
IMMERSE YOUR SOUL IN LOVE
Thom Yorke, Radiohead - 1995.
The greatest last line to a song, and for that matter, an album EVER!!!!!!!!!!
Now, don't get me started on Jewel. She can thank her rather stunning looks otherwise I don't think the American entertainment industry would have taken her to their hearts in the way they did. How her book managed to top the New York Times Review of Books for 2 months running is just beyond me.
Speaking of Thom Yorke though, whilst I'm not a fan of Radiohead, and on the whole, their lyrics don't make all that much sense to me, I do reckon that part of the beauty of Radiohead's lyrics comes from Yorke's vocal delivery. There is a fragility in his voice which adds far more depth to the lyrics than how they appear as written words (if that makes any sense).
Added to the Shinners Approved List of Lyricists: Elvis Costello, Ian Curtis and Serge Gainsbourg.
Added to the Shinners List of "What Hell Is The Fuss About?": Leonard Cohen, Billy Bragg and Paul Weller.
Originally posted by Shinboners
See what I mean about "shallow drivel disguised with paper thin symbolism".
Deconstructing the whole thing, what Jimbo seems to be asking is, "Well, was your life worth living? Did you make your mark on the world?". But to make himself sound important (and deep and meaningful), he adds symbolism, ie. life = movie.
But of course, it can't be any old general release movie.....y'know, like American Pie 2 or Harry Potter.....nup....he makes it sound like one of those Czech arthouse films that they show at the St.Kilda film festival.....all those silent people in the auditorium....didn't Jimbo realise that they were all trying to stay awake after watching one of those Romanian art house films?
LOL..you see what you see as "shallow drivel disguised with paper thin symbolism" i see as deep and meaningful **** that leaves imprints on your brain. The guy could write. Although i do believe the music that surrounded him created by Manzerek (sp?) and co certainly helped. Plus his voice is so clear, deep and mesmerising, makes him sound like a god and that he is telling you something really important.
Im sure drugs had a lot to do with it but i just really love his lyrics and the Doors music..Shinners how do you feel about the music, Kreiger, Densmore and Manzerek made some great music. Like the whole organ intro in Light My Fire and the huge organ and lead guitar solo in Light My Fire...great music.
Jod, why is it that your only form of argument is to say somebody is a "musical genius"?
You have used this term to describe John Lennon, Micahel Jackson and Jim Morrison.
Wouldn't it be easier to say, simply, "I like their songs"? It's 100% accurate and not open to conjecture, unlike your big brash statements about your favourite footballers, songwriters, guitarists, etc etc always being "clearly" the best, "no doubt" they are the greatest....
Like Olmy said in another thread - how do you know the best in the world isn't some garage muso who doesn't want to share his gift? Why are Morrison, Lennon and Jackson musical geniuses, instead of two spaced out hippies and a freak, who just happen to know how to write a catchy mass-marketable tune.
I'm yet to hear you label Kiss, Stock Aitken & Waterman, AC/DC, The Bee Gees, U2, Guns'N'Roses, Pearl Jam, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, etc as musical geniuses despite their consistent worldwide success. Maybe they don't qualify because you don't like or haven't heard them. :rolleyes:
Your praise of someone being the best in their field is about as valid as sabre_ac's ratings of 99% of Fremantle's playing personnel. It matters to you, and only you. The rest of us just laugh and wait for you to contradict yourself or say something progressively more stupid. :D :D :D
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 15:53
Jod
Look, I don't want to offend you....I'm just taking the p*ss out of Jimbo's lyrics. It would be just as easy for me to deconstruct some of Stuart Murdoch's lyrics and make them sound silly. I do know that to some people, Jimbo's words mean a lot to them (and they clearly mean a lot to you). They simply don't mean anything to me (and as I have argued, I think there are better lyricists around).
As for the music, the only thing it does for me is irritate me (especially Manzarek and his bloody organ). But if you take something out of the music, than that's really the only important thing, isn't it? Whether I like or dislike the Doors does not, and should not, change your enjoyment of their music one little bit.
Cheers
SB
Originally posted by Darky
Jod, why is it that your only form of argument is to say somebody is a "musical genius"?
You have used this term to describe John Lennon, Micahel Jackson and Jim Morrison.
Wouldn't it be easier to say, simply, "I like their songs"? It's 100% accurate and not open to conjecture, unlike your big brash statements about your favourite footballers, songwriters, guitarists, etc etc always being "clearly" the best, "no doubt" they are the greatest....
Like Olmy said in another thread - how do you know the best in the world isn't some garage muso who doesn't want to share his gift? Why are Morrison, Lennon and Jackson musical geniuses, instead of two spaced out hippies and a freak, who just happen to know how to write a catchy mass-marketable tune.
I'm yet to hear you label Kiss, Stock Aitken & Waterman, AC/DC, The Bee Gees, U2, Guns'N'Roses, Pearl Jam, Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, etc as musical geniuses despite their consistent worldwide success. Maybe they don't qualify because you don't like or haven't heard them. :rolleyes:
Your praise of someone being the best in their field is about as valid as sabre_ac's ratings of 99% of Fremantle's playing personnel. It matters to you, and only you. The rest of us just laugh and wait for you to contradict yourself or say something progressively more stupid. :D :D :D
Well lets be honest though Darky, Jackson, Lennon and Morrison are musical genius'. Kiss were just a good rock band with a gimmick, ill be honest and say i dont know who Aitken and Waterman are? But the Bee Gees although i hate there **** are musical genius' as are U2, Pearl Jam, Deep Purple and the Gunners kind of in there own glma rock 80's sort of way :D
Besides Darky if i didnt troll the music boards we all couldnt have a good argument about something any of us will ever be right or wrong about :D Oh and Darky, whos a star at WC.....that right Cousins is!!! :D
Originally posted by Shinboners
Jod
Look, I don't want to offend you....I'm just taking the p*ss out of Jimbo's lyrics. It would be just as easy for me to deconstruct some of Stuart Murdoch's lyrics and make them sound silly. I do know that to some people, Jimbo's words mean a lot to them (and they clearly mean a lot to you). They simply don't mean anything to me (and as I have argued, I think there are better lyricists around).
As for the music, the only thing it does for me is irritate me (especially Manzarek and his bloody organ). But if you take something out of the music, than that's really the only important thing, isn't it? Whether I like or dislike the Doors does not, and should not, change your enjoyment of their music one little bit.
Cheers
SB
Good call Shinners, whatever floats your boat...some of those ppl you mentioned before i have never heard of and probably wont like but you think there great.....Morrison and The Doors for me somewhat defined the 60's and in a way helps you relate to that time period even though i was never there. The Beatles did it best but i love the Doors and as far as chilling out with some friends with a couple of J's....there nothing better than the Doors..:D
Cheers..
Macca19
12 Dec 2001, 16:20
Originally posted by Shinboners
But if you take something out of the music, than that's really the only important thing, isn't it?
100% correct with that sentence shinners.
This is the only line that matters in this whole argument.
Everyone has different musical views. As is the case here...Jod loves the Doors, whereas Shinners hates them. They are different views, and neither Jod or Shinners is right or wrong. For every person out there that loves a certain band there will be another person who hates that same band.
Myself....i find the Doors music to be a bit bland. It does nothing for me.
The Bee Gees on the other hand!! Gotta love that music, and the voices!!! Very 'unique'....no Male in the world should have a voice that goes that high!!
AH AH AH AH STAYIN ALIVE
Originally posted by Macca19
100% correct with that sentence shinners.
This is the only line that matters in this whole argument.
Everyone has different musical views. As is the case here...Jod loves the Doors, whereas Shinners hates them. They are different views, and neither Jod or Shinners is right or wrong. For every person out there that loves a certain band there will be another person who hates that same band.
Myself....i find the Doors music to be a bit bland. It does nothing for me.
The Bee Gees on the other hand!! Gotta love that music, and the voices!!! Very 'unique'....no Male in the world should have a voice that goes that high!!
AH AH AH AH STAYIN ALIVE
A perfect post Macca, well almost. In the end there you go on about the fricking Bee Gees....eeewwwwww :D
All the rest was on the money.
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 21:43
Originally posted by jod23
Good call Shinners, whatever floats your boat...some of those ppl you mentioned before i have never heard of and probably wont like but you think there great.....
I think there's plenty of stuff that I mentioned that you probably won't like.....but there might be some that you might like. Judging from what you've posted, you might want to check out The Salteens who are from Canada and supported Jebediah recently....similar thing, pop-rock (probably more poppy though), and it's very catchy and they're good live. Then there's Oasis, so have a listen to Teenage Fanclub , a Scottish band who I know that Oasis admire. The two albums that I'd recommend are Bandwagonesque and Howdy! . All you need to do is just pop into your local indie store and have a quick listen....you've got nothing to lose apart from maybe 10 minutes and you may find that you'll love these sounds.
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 21:45
Originally posted by Macca19
The Bee Gees on the other hand!! Gotta love that music, and the voices!!! Very 'unique'....no Male in the world should have a voice that goes that high!!
AH AH AH AH STAYIN ALIVE
Yeah, I've got a BeeGees tribute CD in my collection. A friend of mine is in a band on the tribute CD and they covered "How Deep Is Your Love" on it.
The Hippie
12 Dec 2001, 21:51
Originally posted by Darky
instead of two spaced out hippies and a freak
OK, there's been way too many Hippie references going on round here lately and if it continues I'll be wanting a cut of the royalties. :D :D :D
Jod you may also be interested in listening to Australian act "Even" (3 albums), as well as The Verve (3 albums), if you haven't already listened to them.
Shinboners
12 Dec 2001, 22:09
Another band that's good for that big dose of pop (and some rock thrown in) is Big Star....two CDs, the introspective Sister Lovers and the #1 Record/Radio City CD that combines two albums. Both should be able to be picked up for around $20 if you look in the right places.
Originally posted by Shinboners
Now, don't get me started on Jewel. She can thank her rather stunning looks otherwise I don't think the American entertainment industry would have taken her to their hearts in the way they did. How her book managed to top the New York Times Review of Books for 2 months running is just beyond me.
Speaking of Thom Yorke though, whilst I'm not a fan of Radiohead, and on the whole, their lyrics don't make all that much sense to me, I do reckon that part of the beauty of Radiohead's lyrics comes from Yorke's vocal delivery. There is a fragility in his voice which adds far more depth to the lyrics than how they appear as written words (if that makes any sense).
Added to the Shinners Approved List of Lyricists: Elvis Costello, Ian Curtis and Serge Gainsbourg.
Added to the Shinners List of "What Hell Is The Fuss About?": Leonard Cohen, Billy Bragg and Paul Weller.
Yeah, Jewel is funny!!! :D
Ironically, I agree with you. Thom's lyrics always seem half complete. Half thoughts, that never really go anywhere.
But at the same time, that's part of the beauty! Sure he has a voice that is incomparabe in terms of fragility, but another component of that is the never comfortable lyrics. Like life, it just flows. Questions are asked and they will never be answered.
Thom was actually quoted as saying that OK Computer's lyrics were a complete mess and I'd tend to agree with him. But on Kid A, he did the same again. It ain't a story, but sub-consious words that express the emotion of the song and even if they don't make much sense, I reckon that is real poetry.
If you want an example of a complete song, then you need go no further than Exit Music (so called because it was the song played during the closing credits of Baz Luhrman's (sp.) Romeo & Juliet). It basically tells the story.
wake, from your sleep
the drying of your tears
today we escape
we escape
pack, and get dressed
before your father hears us
before all hell breaks loose
breathe, keep breathing
don't lose your nerve
breathe, keep breathing
i can't do this alone
sing us a song, a song to keep us warm
there's such a chill, such a chill
you can laugh
a spineless laugh
we hope your rules and wisdom choke you
now we are one
in everlasting peace
we hope that you choke, that you choke
we hope that you choke, that you choke
we hope that you choke, that you choke
I agree with your added "Shinners Approvals". If you like Joy Division and The Smiths, you should like Radiohead. They are, without question, the best band going around today.
Shinboners
13 Dec 2001, 13:41
Originally posted by FIGJAM
Ironically, I agree with you. Thom's lyrics always seem half complete. Half thoughts, that never really go anywhere.
But at the same time, that's part of the beauty! Sure he has a voice that is incomparabe in terms of fragility, but another component of that is the never comfortable lyrics. Like life, it just flows. Questions are asked and they will never be answered.
There is another song that breaks that rule though. Have you ever heard their song "Killer Cars"? It was a bonus track on the Japanese version of "The Bends". If you haven't heard it, I'll post the lyrics up, but the song is about someone trying to prevent a loved one from driving because of all the things that could go wrong whilst driving. As you say, York's lyrics are never comfortable, and with this song, whilst there is (black) humour at the absolute paranoia of the singer about cars, you also know that everything he's worried about could easily happen.
Yeah, I have the Japanese version. It's not a bad song, but it's definitely a B-Side.
One of the first showcases of their technological paranioa, along with Fake Plastic Trees.
Anyhoo, I better go before The_Flying_Egg tries to tell me that Creed have significantly better lyrics than Radiohead! ;)