View Full Version : Would we consider trading T-Bird
Don't get me wrong i like him and he is important to our back half at the moment but if there was some interest out there for him at years end would we consider trading him for another midfielder.
If Hartlett, Bower and Edwards can develop along with Sentanta and Kennedy we are quite well stocked with KPP. With Lance killing it down back and looking like staying there T-Bird IMO could find himself struggling in a few years if the other youngsters develop the way we would like them.
Thoughts.
ShlomoGlickstein
16 Apr 2006, 14:56
Absolutely, but for a better defender. His major flaw is his decision making, it hasn't improved in 3 years.
The Old Dark Navy's
16 Apr 2006, 15:00
I'll address the original post but not the second one as I don't know that I have seen a Carlton supporter so willing to dump on the club at any chance. Still don't know that I am seeing one for that matter.
Thornton is not a key backman, he is a tall flanker who has been forced to play key position. Lance has become a key defender and the pressure has gone off Thornton a little bit and he has been doing a better job of late. Just seems silly to talk about trading him when he is being freed up more than ever before which is what most of us wanted for him.
Let's see how the season pans out.
I'll address the original post but not the second one as I don't know that I have seen a Carlton supporter so willing to dump on the club at any chance. Still don't know that I am seeing one for that matter.
Thornton is not a key backman, he is a tall flanker who has been forced to play key position. Lance has become a key defender and the pressure has gone off Thornton a little bit and he has been doing a better job of late. Just seems silly to talk about trading him when he is being freed up more than ever before which is what most of us wanted for him.
Let's see how the season pans out. fair call ODN. I raised the question because I believe that if the other youngsters who are obviously more suited to KP than Brett can develop then there might not be a role for him. I'm still not convinced that he is a flanker as well.
Andyt30
16 Apr 2006, 15:35
trading t-bird a big NO what if he plays extra well elsewhere, then who'll be sorry if they trade him ?
In a word - No.
He didn't have the best year last year, but I think his form so far this year has been pretty good. He has been forced to play on the bigger bodied forwards becuase we have really lacked in the key backman stocks.
IMO, his best position is to play on a HBF, where he can use his size and his reasonable foot speed to advantage. We have the makings of a very good backline with Hartlett and Bower to come into the team.
BlueWorld
16 Apr 2006, 17:24
Nobody's off limits. If we got offered Chris Judd for him you would. All depends what the deal is but there's no reason to put him up for trade. Unless other players do that well that he's no longer able to maintain a position in the side, which isn't going to happen in the forseeable future.
Pafloyul
16 Apr 2006, 17:56
The thing is, this years draft is supposed brimming with key-position talent and it would be naive to think that 'the devil we know' is automatically better than the alternative.
There is every chance that the first six or so KPPs taken in this years draft will be better players than T-bird will ever be. I think that we will need to be very brave and creative in the next few years and if that means trading someone like Thornton then so be it.
gandaal
16 Apr 2006, 18:00
No. We value him, and need him, far more than any other club would.
Pafloyul
16 Apr 2006, 18:02
That remains to be seen.
TheGeneral
16 Apr 2006, 18:42
What are you offering?
blues4flag
16 Apr 2006, 21:01
I'd definetly keep him, hes proven himself to be a good defender. How but if our young KP defenders don't make it?
Funkalicous
17 Apr 2006, 00:44
Have you lost your mind?! Thornton has a good 10 years worth of quality footy in him. And you'd trade him for a midfielder?
TheGeneral
17 Apr 2006, 01:12
If our young defenders show they are the goods and will make it, I hope we consider trading a tall flanker like Tbird or a KPP like Lance for a pick that might get us another skilled midfieler like Collard, Hislop or Proud. That's what Mojo said it would take to get another early pick this year and another draft watcher has stated that this year's trade week will be a seller's market.
We are still an awfully slow side and lacking in skill compared to the top sides like the Dogs, Crows and Eagles, etc. We need more run and quicker legs with the way the game is developing!
Have you lost your mind?! Thornton has a good 10 years worth of quality footy in him. And you'd trade him for a midfielder?no i haven't lost my mind thank-you. but thanks for your concern anyway. T-Bird has been an under performer for quite a while now so i don't where you're getting your "quality" performances from. at best he is serviceable and solid......
no i haven't lost my mind thank-you. but thanks for your concern anyway. T-Bird has been an under performer for quite a while now so i don't where you're getting your "quality" performances from. at best he is serviceable and solid......
With most of our KP defenders still developing, we have a need to keep T-Bird at the club. Guys like Hartlett, Bower and Edwards are still developing any will probably not be ready for the rigours of AFL footy.
As Pagan has stated, he has really on just hit the required weight to handle to KP post, so lets not be to hasty to trade away one of KP defenders that can handle the bigger bodied forwards.
murphster
17 Apr 2006, 13:12
If our young defenders show they are the goods and will make it, I hope we consider trading a tall flanker like Tbird or a KPP like Lance for a pick that might get us another skilled midfieler like Collard, Hislop or Proud. That's what Mojo said it would take to get another early pick this year and another draft watcher has stated that this year's trade week will be a seller's market.
We are still an awfully slow side and lacking in skill compared to the top sides like the Dogs, Crows and Eagles, etc. We need more run and quicker legs with the way the game is developing!
Are you kidding or what Cypher, this is most unlike you, i can't believe you would trade Lance for a prospective midfielder, Lance should be the next Captain of the club and when our other KP backmen develop can go back to CHF where he will dominate after playing i9n defence for a couple of years, with the lack of inspirational leaders at the club to trade Lance would be a travisty.
As for leg speed i think our leg speed and fitness is very good now and will only improve as other players come in like Russell and Blackwell and players like Walker move further up the ground, our leg speed on Saturday was a highlight of the match with Simpson, Chambers, Murphy, Carrots, Scotland, Betts and others breaking open the Swans through the middle with leg speed in the second half, we look slow at times because of poor decision making and lack of confidence which will both improve with game time.
We need to keep the Senior players we have to guide all the youngsters especially someone like Lance who can teach our abundance of KP youngsters how to play CHB and CHF and where to position themselves for a long time to come, if Lances last 2 years in Defence has shown us anything it is that Lance has to stay at the club, to give away a Brain like Lances would be the biggest mistake we could ever make at this stage in our development.:D
Have been a massive fan of Thronton since he came to the club. Loved his agression and spirit and his reading of the play. However since being thrust into the FB role I feel he has really struggled.
He has lost much of his insinctive touch and has been out of sorts for a fair while now. I think his lack of pace is a big concern for FB but hope that we can elevate a Hartlett to FB and allow Brett to go HB,CHB or even forward perhaps.
I really feel he has the ability to be a very long serving and polished performer. However he needs to regain self belief. If he cannot and if he keeps performing at the level of the past 18months then I think he could be traded.However there are signs of improvement already so lets see what the rest of the season brings.
TheGeneral
17 Apr 2006, 15:16
Are you kidding or what Cypher, this is most unlike you,
No it's not! :D
i can't believe you would trade Lance for a prospective midfielder, Lance should be the next Captain of the club and when our other KP backmen develop can go back to CHF where he will dominate after playing i9n defence for a couple of years, with the lack of inspirational leaders at the club to trade Lance would be a travisty.
We tried to trade him last year and the game is faster is getting faster but Lance isn't. He hasn't dominated for years! Whilst his game on Hall was very good, the Swans and Carlton didn't do their full forwards any favours with the way they brought the ball into their forward lines.
As for leg speed i think our leg speed and fitness is very good now and will only improve as other players come in like Russell and Blackwell and players like Walker move further up the ground, our leg speed on Saturday was a highlight of the match with Simpson, Chambers, Murphy, Carrots, Scotland, Betts and others breaking open the Swans through the middle with leg speed in the second half, we look slow at times because of poor decision making and lack of confidence which will both improve with game time.
Blackwell isn't quick and I don't see Scotland surviving more than 1-2 years with the injection of draft picks we'll have over the next 2 years. He was good against Melbourne but shocking against the Dockers and may have been dropped if he was at a club with a better list.
We need to keep the Senior players we have to guide all the youngsters especially someone like Lance who can teach our abundance of KP youngsters how to play CHB and CHF and where to position themselves for a long time to come, if Lances last 2 years in Defence has shown us anything it is that Lance has to stay at the club, to give away a Brain like Lances would be the biggest mistake we could ever make at this stage in our development.:D
10 good years and finals from 1-2 good young players or 3-5 years (if he doesn't get injured and stays fit) out of Lance?
Hmmmmm, tough choice!
Short term it will hurt us but the payoff will be there and you only have to look at the Hawks win on the weekend with kids. They were brave enough to bite the bullet by tradings "stars" and think about the side five years down the track.
In a better position than the Roos! :p :rolleyes:
Pafloyul
17 Apr 2006, 18:53
You tell em Cyph!:thumbsu:
Funkalicous
17 Apr 2006, 18:54
no i haven't lost my mind thank-you. but thanks for your concern anyway. T-Bird has been an under performer for quite a while now so i don't where you're getting your "quality" performances from. at best he is serviceable and solid......
Last year we had the worst defence by an absolute mile. ... Right now we are 5th in the competition for 'points against'. It's been an amazing turn-around. Somehow we have managed to settle our defence and make it into an actual strength.
Can you imagine where we would be right now without that part of our game? First quarter against Sydney, our midfield was smashed! That footy went inside defensive 50 at least a dozen times. Yet the defence stayed calm... In recent years, the game would've been over at half time.
Thornton hasn't just been part of that defence, but he's been part of one of the best fb/chb combos going around atm (with Lance). How could you justify throwing that away for a dime-a-dozen midfielder? :confused:
Funkalicous
17 Apr 2006, 19:00
Hmmmmm, tough choice!
Short term it will hurt us but the payoff will be there and you only have to look at the Hawks win on the weekend with kids. They were brave enough to bite the bullet by tradings "stars" and think about the side five years down the track.
In a better position than the Roos! :p :rolleyes:
Cypher, no team has actually won a premiership by ways of over-injecting their team with draft picks. Not even the Saints. Reason: Because it's not the young players that win you premierships, it's the senior players. To win a premiership, you need a settled squad of players, who are a diciplined, and are committed to doing the team things.
No. He's young and too important to our structure to risk losing him for little return.
Pafloyul
17 Apr 2006, 19:25
It is not about how many 'picks' you have but it is about how much 'quality' you have in the side.
What happens when a side has the same amount of 'commitment at doing the team things' as us but can still out-muscle, out-run out-reach and out-kick us?
You can’t just say that we will deal with that when it happens because by then it will already be too late.
Thornton hasn't just been part of that defence, but he's been part of one of the best fb/chb combos going around atm (with Lance). How could you justify throwing that away for a dime-a-dozen midfielder? :confused:
I disagree. Whitnall has been very good and thornton has been fair. the swans only had 40 inside 50's on saturday night and thornton's direct opponent kicked 4 goals the most by any player on the ground in a low scoring stop start game where it was difficult for forwards to find space.
if he is that valuable as you are stating why would we only get a dime-a-dozen midfielder for him?
i have been a great fan of thorntons since he started but the more i see of him the more i can see that he might not be in our long term plans. i hope i am wrong and he can kick some arse this year. if he does i will be the first to admit that i was wrong.
TheGeneral
17 Apr 2006, 22:01
Cypher, no team has actually won a premiership by ways of over-injecting their team with draft picks. Not even the Saints. Reason: Because it's not the young players that win you premierships, it's the senior players. To win a premiership, you need a settled squad of players, who are a diciplined, and are committed to doing the team things.
Not yet! ;)
We won't be challenging for a flag for at least 3-4 seasons with the talent we have at the moment. By that time Lance's career will be winding down but this year's draftees will be hitting their straps exactly like the Dal Santos, Maguires, Riewoldts and Koschitzkes.
Mojo stated that Kennedy is about the same level with Eric Mackenzie for talent and he might be drafted roundabout pick 16 this year. I hope we wouldn't knock back another gun midfielder/KPP or two if a club came to us with that offer for Lance.
Not yet! ;)
We won't be challenging for a flag for at least 3-4 seasons with the talent we have at the moment. By that time Lance's career will be winding down but this year's draftees will be hitting their straps exactly like the Dal Santos, Maguires, Riewoldts and Koschitzkes.
Mojo stated that Kennedy is about the same level with Eric Mackenzie for talent and he might be drafted roundabout pick 16 this year. I hope we wouldn't knock back another gun midfielder/KPP or two if a club came to us with that offer for Lance.
I think it comes down to this really. If Lance plays like 2005 when he plays a bit forward and has a good quater or 2 but in reality is not cutting it as a quality forward and then is forced to be moved back. Then proceeds to take no responsability down back and gathers cheap stats and uses it well but leaves the heavy "lifting" to Thornton and others then in reality he is a 375k half back flanker who guards space.
Under those circumstances this year he is of no real use for that salary and would be better off with another quicker more skilled team who could use his smart leads and clean hands forward.
But this year he has had 1 dud in Paul Johsnon who he thrashed but also set up play and left his man to help out others. Then played well against Freo and took McPharlin and slaughtered him in the 2nd half on a big fast ground. Then had Hall on the weekend and man on man beat him and made very few errors. Punched clear of opponenst 20 times in 3 games around about. Rarely wasted a kick and was settling influence and his bodywork has been great. Under those cirumstances he is incredible invalubale to Carlton and if he can keep that up then he justifies his wage and his place at Carlton.
Does not mean he has to always play on the very best forward but if he plays like this all year then I would like for him to play his career out at the Blues.
Problem is that I dont think he will be able to keep it up but I do hope he can.
If you want quality from the upcoming draft it will cost and the price will be very high. Everybody happy with Murphy? Well there are a number in this draft who are better than him and by a fair way. For the right price I would be just about be prepared to trade anybody if it improved the list. Just a question of the price for me.
Lets just wait to see if these other guys make the grade first. Not everyone turns out to be champions.
TheGeneral
17 Apr 2006, 22:35
You tell em Cyph!:thumbsu:
You tell 'em you old dinosaur! :p
How's Mitch Clarke travelling? :)
IMO he shouldn't be traded, unless another club comes up with a ridiculous trade.
lets wait and see if Hartlett, Bower and Edwards take thornton's spot by years end
"if the other youngsters develop", no point doing anything until they have actually developed
Kennedy will be very good for us, most likely as a FWD not a s a BACK
Setanta- still learing the ropes, needs more games with bullants.
in an ideal world thornton would be best suited to FB or taking the 3rd tall.
blue_bhoy
18 Apr 2006, 11:31
He should focus on his own game, instead of blaming everyone but himself everytime his opponent takes a mark.
Snoozer
18 Apr 2006, 11:31
T-bird.... worst nickname in the AFL.
SurreyBlue
18 Apr 2006, 12:19
I say lets get rid of Carrazzo also, he probably has some value right now too. We might get a second round pick for him. Nothing like "high draft picks". Sell our soul I say, that's how to build team spirit.
I see a pattern developing amongst Carlton supporters.:rolleyes:
Pafloyul
18 Apr 2006, 12:52
And what is that pattern Surrey?
How else do we improve a side or are we just going to finish last again this year?:confused:
murphster
18 Apr 2006, 13:18
You people need to look at the list we have now and see that it is a good list to build on we do not need to start trading away our senior players, at next years draft we will still get a descent pick plus we have Father sons in Sheldon and Johnson who admittedly don't look the ducks nuts right now but a lot can change in the 9 months till the next draft.
People forget it has only been 18 or so months since Lance came back from a knee injury most players take at least 12 months to get back to some semblance of form and someone like Lance with his weight and fitness problems will probably take longer, he has steadily got fitter and slimmer over that 18 odd months and is only now getting back to where he was and IMO will only get better from here, he may not be super quick but certainly makes up for that with his smarts and leadership down back, without having Lance down back do you seriously think our defence would be doing as well as it is right now. Without Lance there as a teacher and mentor to the other KP youngsters in Bower, Edwards, Hartlett and even Kennedy these young players will take twice as long to develop into regular senior players without the help of Lance telling them how to position themselves and where to run and guiding our whole defencive half into the future. We have a young side now if we trade away all our senior players we have nothing but a bunch of headless chooks running around out on the field with no leadership to guide them.:)
Go the Mosquito Fleet:thumbsu:
You people need to look at the list we have now and see that it is a good list to build on we do not need to start trading away our senior players, at next years draft we will still get a descent pick plus we have Father sons in Sheldon and Johnson who admittedly don't look the ducks nuts right now but a lot can change in the 9 months till the next draft.
People forget it has only been 18 or so months since Lance came back from a knee injury most players take at least 12 months to get back to some semblance of form and someone like Lance with his weight and fitness problems will probably take longer, he has steadily got fitter and slimmer over that 18 odd months and is only now getting back to where he was and IMO will only get better from here, he may not be super quick but certainly makes up for that with his smarts and leadership down back, without having Lance down back do you seriously think our defence would be doing as well as it is right now. Without Lance there as a teacher and mentor to the other KP youngsters in Bower, Edwards, Hartlett and even Kennedy these young players will take twice as long to develop into regular senior players without the help of Lance telling them how to position themselves and where to run and guiding our whole defencive half into the future. We have a young side now if we trade away all our senior players we have nothing but a bunch of headless chooks running around out on the field with no leadership to guide them.:)
Go the Mosquito Fleet:thumbsu:no offence murphster but the thread is on trading t-bird, not lance.
celtic_pride
18 Apr 2006, 16:41
No I wouldnt' because our backline is clearly our biggest weakness at the moment and if we got rid of Thornton, we'd only have players like Livingstone, Teague and Saddington left.
Unless we could get a better defender or a really high draft pikc in return, I'd keep Thornton.
Teague's drop in form hasn't helped Thornton either.
Funkalicous
18 Apr 2006, 18:15
No I wouldnt' because our backline is clearly our biggest weakness at the moment and if we got rid of Thornton, we'd only have players like Livingstone, Teague and Saddington left.
Unless we could get a better defender or a really high draft pikc in return, I'd keep Thornton.
Teague's drop in form hasn't helped Thornton either.
Our biggest weakness? I reckon our backline has been our greatest strength so far this season. Although admittedly, it was easily our biggest weakness last year. But then again, I thought our defence was good in 2004, and strong again in the 2005 pre-season comp. I blame key injuries to Thornton, Livingston, and inexperience for the major form drop over last year. I'm under the impression that they're back on track once more. - Thanks in no small part to 'General' Lance.
I've always said, a great side starts from the backline. Carlton in 95. Essendon in 2000. Brisbane in 2001. I also think we're building one of the best spines in the competition. Despite recent changes in the game, a spine is still necessary to win premierships. That was actually one of the major reasons I was hoping West Coast lost last year's Grand Final. I just can't stomach seeing an 'all-midfield' team win the premiership.... hmmm... I might have to start hating the Bulldogs.... more so than normal. ;)
murphster
19 Apr 2006, 12:06
no offence murphster but the thread is on trading t-bird, not lance.
No Offence Kooly but someone else brought up trading Lance as part of this thread and i am replying to that so read the whole thread.:thumbsu:
Maybe the concept of a trade is not being understood?
Not getting rid of anyone. Not rating them or thinking they are no good. But taking a strategic decision to improve the list. Thats what its all about. We need key defenders who can play on the power forwards as well as the athletic ones.
At the moment we are using Thornton and Lance and it would be a brave person who believes they will be able to hold up all year. We are flooding back to help them out and playing our ruckmen in the hole. This means we are struggling to kick scores with a defensive approach.
Play them 1 out and maybe then we might start to see the jkey forwards start to dominate against us.
Thornton has shown he is a good player. He had a poor year last year and an okay start to this year. Is he the long term CHB or FB we need? Maybe but most likely he is a tall HBF and thats all. Is Lance going to be the long term (next 3 or 4 years) key defender at CHB? Will his fitness and form hold up? Will his body stay together? Will teams be able to exploit him?
Trading is all about taking a reasonable strength to address a weakness. Trading Thornton who is a tall defender would seem to be making one of our weaknesses worse. I would not trade him but if we had our heart set on Hansen or Thorp in the draft and were confident of taking 1 (had a pick in the top 3) then you could see it as a possibility if we got a great offer for him. Could take a key defender in the draft and use them straight away especially in Hansens case who at 17 is 195cms and 92kgs already and would play round 1 in 2007. Then use the pick from Thornton to address the other main weakness with a quick skilled midfielder.
So strategically we take say a Hansen who plays round 1. Then a quick midfielder for Thorntons pick and then another runner with our second round pick. Bower developing also with Edwards and Flint might also have a say in decisions at the end of the year. Hartlett also if he ever gets his body right. If we did take Riewoldt, Thorp or Hansen first up and saw them as long term defenders (they can all play anywhere down the spine) then a trade could be considered I suppose.
Trading is all about giving something up to get something. Offering up a dud wont cut it in this draft. You want a good pick then give up a good player.
Its all good discussion and there is no doubt we have a lot of talls on the list but most of them are unproven so its hard to know what the situation will be in 3 years time and who has come on and who has not.
Why do we drop French back when he isn't mobile or smart enough to cut off the leads?
Funkalicous
19 Apr 2006, 13:12
If you looked up 'luxury' in the dictionary, the discription would look something like this:
Luxuy:The option to play Bret Thornton as a 3rd tall in defence.
With guys like Bower, Kennedy, Edwards, and Hartlett coming through the ranks, this will become a possibility. If we can persist and trust with our midfield, and persist and trust in our backmen, we can develop the sort of team we need for the future.
Mojo, it's all well and good if someone offers us a top 3 pick for Thornton, but that's a pipe dream. What Kooley has put on the table is simply a solid midfielder, which frankly I find ridiculous. We can easily develop our own solid midfielders. Heck, most footy players coming through the system are midfielders anyway. But I don't want our club to do a Micheal/Molloy trade, or a Clement/(with whoever Fremantle got) trade. Those are the deals that more than often bite clubs in the butt.
thornton is an ok player but i think many of you overrate him in terms of trade value. Our main currency would be Fev, whitnall, stevens, russell, hartlett, fisher - also houlahan
fisher i would be loathe to trade as he offers something that noone else on our list does.
Russell, hartlett - chances to go due to go home factor and end of first contracts. Though neither player has done anything yet you would still be looking for late 1st round, or 2nd round picks from adelaide (presumably finish top 4) or port (presume to finish mid ladder)
Fev - has huge currency atm given that his body language issues appear resolved. clubs will be more than willing to pay come trade time if he maintains his form thoughout the year (ie on track for 80+ goal season). Fev would nab you the top 5 draft pick imho - only question is whether we are willing to pay. Question is whether we can replace Fev in the forward structure - I think it is achievable given our excess of forward KPP players - kennedy, waite, fisher, setanta as tall options - individually wont be as good as fev though his absence might give the players more opportunity (ball kicked more often) - if the players can each kick 0.5-1 goal/game extra in Fevs absence then i think we can afford to lose him. We will gain much more from picking up sellar etc
stevens - worth less than fev - cant see him being worth more than a late 1st round pick. Might be worth looking at though if russell steps up by the end of year and walker moves into the midfield. Walker/simpson/houlahan/russell combo is sufficient for the 'outside' component of the midfield brigade. Stevens might be a hit short term though we gain accountability and it would probably enable us to strengthen backline, ruck or inside midfield in return.
whitnall - trade value increasing though difficult to figure out his worth - on current form he will probably make all australian and like fev by worth an early 1st rounder (perhaps slightly less than fev). Some clubs might be willling to pay for whitnall (ie bulldogs as a replacement for grant) though one might ask whether or not we can afford to lose whitnall from our team. Imho, he is the best on field leader we have atm and a better choice than stevens. We need at least 2 players to stand up before we can afford to lose whitnall from there - saddington might be one and livo the other - none of the others are ready as yet and given the lack of faith shown in livo by the coaches i dont think he will make it. So whitnall is a must keep i think.
on houlahan - if he keeps up his early season form throughout the year and perhaps improve somewhat then he will be very good - he will also have well and truely overcome the 'soft' tag - think his disposal is quite good and would offer us more as a midfielder than stevens - think his disposal is at least on par with stevens and perhaps better. However, I suspect he wont have the trade value of stevens yet so should be kept.
If you looked up 'luxury' in the dictionary, the discription would look something like this:
Luxuy:The option to play Bret Thornton as a 3rd tall in defence.
With guys like Bower, Kennedy, Edwards, and Hartlett coming through the ranks, this will become a possibility. If we can persist and trust with our midfield, and persist and trust in our backmen, we can develop the sort of team we need for the future.
Mojo, it's all well and good if someone offers us a top 3 pick for Thornton, but that's a pipe dream. What Kooley has put on the table is simply a solid midfielder, which frankly I find ridiculous. We can easily develop our own solid midfielders. Heck, most footy players coming through the system are midfielders anyway. But I don't want our club to do a Micheal/Molloy trade, or a Clement/(with whoever Fremantle got) trade. Those are the deals that more than often bite clubs in the butt.
Who said top 3 pick Funky?
Nobody on our list is worth a top 3 pick. I am merely not dismissing the idea of a trade based on Thornton being a gun. Because quite frankly he is not and in my opinion never will be the key defender we need. Will be fine as the third tall but is hardly damaging with his disposal and will have good games and bad but is not going to influence games and be the player we build around. A goodish player who is not going to take us forward a great deal. We need them no doubt but where are our 2 key defenders who we build around? For me we might have 1 but the other 1 is not at the club yet. The player is not Thornton in my eyes.
A good solid midfielder would be a fairly big help for us. I look through our list and we currently have 1 solid midfielder only. Kouta is not and neither is Scotland. Stevens is but not on his last 2 games. We then have a bunch of kids who look promising but have a long way to go. If we had a number of good solid midfielders we would be a lot better than what we are now.
We do have a lot of half back flankers coming through though who can play on the third tall. Just not enough midfield prospects.
Funky, its all well and good to come up with my "pipe dreams" but maybe you need to read what I actually said in this thread. The words consider, list managment, defiencies and so on ... Not blanket statements.
I leave that sort of things to others who like to misquote me and jump all up and down about my posts.
Why do we drop French back when he isn't mobile or smart enough to cut off the leads?
Why do we get numbers back against the Swans and allow them the ball? They haev good skills and great patience to find the free man. They dont panic. They love keepings off style and ship it around. Where is there run and flair? They dont have it and love it congested up and chip around style.
Play 1 on 1 and play on at all costs. Here is what I wrote on TheBlueView website today.
Against Sydney we made a lot of errors. Things like kicking blindly. Nort looking for a switch of play. Not holding onto the ball (to get a rest) and wait for an option. We were chasing a lot and made us tired . Essendon played Sydney the right way in round 1. They took them on and played on and run them ragged. Slow/contested football is what Sydney love. 1 on 1 and running and playing on is where they can be beaten. Not numbers strategy. They love to chip it around and be patient. Open it up and take them on and you might lose but you have a decent chance. Fisher and Waite being out hurt and Lappin getting injured early but even still we had our chances.
To often we were to compacted around the ball. From a marking contest or a bounce and Sydney would strategically have a player out the bak and 1 at the side. We would have 4 on 2 right around it. When we won it there was no easy outlet to feed it out. When they won it it was flicked out and they had 1 or 2 players in space to run and carry and hurt us.
So we won the clearances but were not damaging with them. Should have had more outriders. Clearances only hurt when you can feed it out to someone in space. Kicking quickly out of a apack is a clearance but does not really hurt the opposition.
Our senior mids in Kouta and Stevens did not organise well. We were also smashed by there senior runners compared to ours of Kouta, Stevens and Scotland. AB, Murphy and the rest of our young blokes were a lot better and the future is promising for those onballers.
We lacked targets up forward and at least our backline stood up okay. Still letting them chip it around to players like Davis and Micky O was criminal. They rarely take overhead marks and our defenders should be playing a metre in front and taking up the spcae Sydney like to create for the forward to lead into. The amount of times they kicked 15m to a leading forward to get them in range with our defender half a metre behind was to much. Sydney wont miss when chipping it like that and the only way is to play them in front and force a longer kick over the top and have Thorton,AW, Lance being able to come over the top to kill the ball.
Lance played Hall in front and was rarely beaten in any 1 on 1. Thornton played Micky O from behind and was led to the ball many times. Have to play them in front and not let them get a 1 m gap because with the Sydney patience and kicking skills they open you up like a surgeon and get goals from 45 to 50m out regularly.
Murphy showed why he was the best player in the last draft and how he can use the ball. Maybe the nuffy nuffies who claim Marc cant kick based on 2 poor kicks on the draft video can have a good hard look at how many of Marc's kicks are not to advantage. They dont spin so well but they do seem to hit Fev right where he needs it. The ability to hold onto the ball and draw the pressure to release a player (like he did with Kade's goal) is something very few players have. Not seen anyone break a Murphy tackle either yet. Simpson showed his run and speed and hopefully we can get a couple more like him in the next few drafts. Playes with flair and skill who open the game up and break down defenses with there speed.
McLaren was solid and assured. Saddington looked below standard and will need to bear down a little more than that. He was not up to speed and will need to show more intensity and also not play from behind if he is playing deep defense. Its to easy to get a gap on him with his lack of speed off the mark.
Sydney were out of form and that was our chance to run them ragged. Unfortunately we were a bit conservative and lacked courage tp take them on and lost a close game we could have easily won with a bit more luck and more importantly a more attacking game plan
No Offence Kooly but someone else brought up trading Lance as part of this thread and i am replying to that so read the whole thread.:thumbsu:no offence but in that post you're referring to you began by saying " you people need to", implying that most people on here wanted to trade lance when in fact it was the opinion of only one poster on this thread. just stataing that the thread is concerning t-bird not lance. :thumbsu:
TheGeneral
29 Apr 2006, 11:06
Then use the pick from Thornton to address the other main weakness with a quick skilled midfielder.
That'd do me at the moment and if footballers as talented as Lance and Fevola can be considered expendable, why wouldn't we consider trading the one paced Thornton to address a glaring weaknesses in our list, i.e. skill, run and pace?
Houlihan as well if we can find a club who can carry a soft player with skill! :rolleyes:
Who was it that said we recovered well from the salary cap penalties and they weren't an excuse? :rolleyes:
Add 3 quality first round picks instead of Livo, Sporn, Wiggins and the undoubted skills/talent of Ray/Bradley, Wells and Goddard to last night's game and the result might have been different. :cool:
Trade Thornton? Right now, no from me. Ask me later in the year when everyone else's name will be thrown up.
There are too many Sheedy "what if's" in this question.
What if Hartlett doesn't come on?
What if Bower doesn't come on?
What if Edwards doesn't come on?
What if Flint doesn't come on?
Can't trade Thornton or Whitnall for that matter if none of these kids come on by seasons end. At least two of these kids needs to be able to stand up in 2007 down back in the seniors. That means deep in defence and across half-back.
I see Edwards as a future FB, Flint as a tall defender and another possible FB. Hartlett is better up forward but I think he and Kennedy could play at CHB if required from time to time. Bower would be better suited at this very early stage across half-back but could well develop into an attacking type of FB like Scarlett or Michael.
They all need time, there are too many "what if's" and too many possibles and potentials with these kids at this stage.
Thornton hasn't been able to play his best style IMO. I think it's as a HBF, spending time at CHB also, but also playing through the middle, on a wing and even across half-forward.
His off-season training would need to shift from bulk to endurance thoug but this could easily be adjusted.
But this won't happen whilest there is no real FB to play on all-comers and a real CHB to play on all-comers. Whitnall is doing very well but is not the answer at CHB. So Thornton has been played out of his best position for the best part of his 50-odd senior games.
A decent FB and CHB and then Thornton could play the Adam McPhee-type role that Sheedy uses well in playing as a winger/rr/flanker. More of a trouble-shooter and able to take most types of players. He is 193cm tall and tends to be able to find the footy quite well when released up the ground a bit which has happened very few times simply because of a lack of quality tall defenders.
Just my 2c worth. Cheers.