Kildonan
11 May 2006, 03:15
St Kilda Opposition
Rd 1 19 12
Rd 2 16 15
Rd 3 16 16
Rd 4 15 22
Rd 5 26 15
Rd 6 24 26
Total 116 106
Looking at the raw statistics, you would have to answer no.
Saints say umpiring sins have been costly (no link - archived already)
By Michael Gleeson
May 8, 2006
AFL umpiring boss Jeff Gieschen has told St Kilda coach Grant Thomas that the umpiring in the Saints' loss to Port Adelaide a fortnight ago was about the worst in Gieschen's time at the league.
Thomas yesterday confirmed details of a meeting he had with Gieschen at Moorabbin, reported in The Sunday Age , in which the club protested at the umpiring.
The Saints counted 14 umpiring errors in the match. Gieschen admitted to 13 but was later persuaded to the 14th. At least four of the erroneous free kicks led to Port Adelaide goals in a match the Power won at home by four points.
"I'd hate to think it was anything else other than just a bad day. It was a four-point ball game, it was very tight, and we were very frustrated with a lot of the things that happened . . ," Thomas told 3AW.
"The unfortunate thing was when we inquired about how many mistakes against Port Adelaide, it was zero, so 14 to zero, it does hurt a side when it's that balance and Jeff acknowledged it was a very poor performance, one of the worst that he's been associated with, and I think two of the South Australian umpires didn't umpire the following week."
Thomas asked whether the umpires were treating St Kilda with greater severity given his outburst last year, in which he suggested umpires' egos affected their jobs. It precipitated the "whispers in the sky" affair after several decisions went against the Saints against Fremantle in Perth.
It was claimed that an umpire said, as he boarded the plane after St Kilda's narrow loss, words to the effect of "now I know what it is like to have a win". The AFL investigated the issue and could find no merit in the claim.
"I think it was our right to ask that question only because you go back to the Fremantle game in round 21 last year and Jeff also acknowledged that was a poor day," Thomas said.
"We just asked the question, is there anything we need to do to ensure things are looked upon in more balance? Jeff's response was he doesn't think so but he'll make inquiries for us.
"We don't want to start World War III on this, but it's human nature if someone is offended, and they were obviously offended and that's why I got fined $20,000 and that's why I apologised … what Jeff's acknowledged is that they've had a couple of poor umpiring days and I suppose that can happen."
The St Kilda coach also raised the point of pressure loaded onto AFL umpires consistently umpiring in their home state. "It's a real cauldron at AAMI Stadium, as it is at Subiaco," he said.
"Those guys have got to front up to work on Monday and they're darned if they do and darned if they don't.
"There is never any suggestion of anything other than interpretation but because of that fact, interpretation, it puts enormous pressure on especially when there's 50,000 screaming fans and 44,000 are local fans …
"The game has got to a level of professionalism that we do require a different balance and that's the same for Melbourne-based games when you have interstate teams travelling to Melbourne."
Port beat us 14-0 in ump blunders (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,19059073%255E19742,00.html)
08 May 2006 Herald Sun
David Hastie
ST KILDA coach Grant Thomas yesterday claimed umpiring errors, verified by AFL director of umpiring Jeff Gieschen, had cost his team victory against Port Adelaide.
Thomas said he used the routine meeting following the Round 4 Monday night game at AAMI Stadium to question the performance of umpires Scott McLaren, Stefan Grun and Michael Avon with Gieschen.
"Jeff basically acknowledged that there were 14 significant errors in the game and 14 were against St Kilda and none against Port Adelaide and in a four-point ball game we just thought that was quite significant," Thomas said.
"And he acknowledged it was quite significant and I don't think those umpires umpired the following week, the two South Australian umpires (Grun and Avon)."
Thomas said the interpretation of the game's rules has led to confusion.
"From time to time, like all coaches and clubs, you get Jeff in and you have a chat about things just to get some clarity and some understanding and try and alleviate frustration," he said. "But they are trying to interpret the best they can.
"But obviously the game is very difficult to interpret and we keep making rules, which unfortunately lends itself to interpretation and when you get into interpretation you can be open for more scrutiny.
"Winning games of footy is what we're about and we thought it was sort of quite significant but we've moved on from that and hopefully there's nothing other than just a bad day."
AFL spokesman Patrick Keane said the meeting was one of many the AFL have with the clubs.
Clearly 14 (more) free kicks in our favour would have overcome the 4 point margin. The way I see it, we were playing interstate with a large crowd all screaming for every home side free kick. The umpires are influenced by this pressure, but it is nearly always the case (in a close match) that the crowd does influence the result. It's called home ground advantage.
We get it too (maybe not to the scale of 14 mistakes, but still a significant skew in our favour). I understand that it is frustrating but it's swings and roundabouts.
I think that it would have been prudent of St Kilda to have kept the Gieschen - Thomas meeting behind closed doors.
Seeing Derek Humphrey Smith on White Line Fever respond to this account, he deflected, mentioning GT's "bamboozled by umpiring decisions" line as "There's a headline - only it was overshadowed by the timekeeper debacle".
Clearly he feels slighted by Thomas.
Do the umpires feel the same way?
Could it be affecting their decisions on the field?
Maybe the whole thing was brought out into the open by the club because after they held closed door sessions after the Fremantle match (whispers in the sky) where Gieschen also admitted the umpires had a bad day, the club felt there was no improvement.
The Freo match was also a tight match in front of a large crowd chiefly supporting the opposition.
Again the same (home ground advantage) disparate umpiring decisions.
I don't think that this problem will be solved easily.
I don't think the umpires make a conscious decision to pay more free kicks to the home side, but I do believe they are influenced by the sheer crowd noise demanding a free kick.
To even it up, the Saints supporters need to attend in great numbers when we play the visiting interstate teams. For that matter, against all opposition. We need to scream our lungs out, literally demanding a free kick whenever we deserve it.
Rd 1 19 12
Rd 2 16 15
Rd 3 16 16
Rd 4 15 22
Rd 5 26 15
Rd 6 24 26
Total 116 106
Looking at the raw statistics, you would have to answer no.
Saints say umpiring sins have been costly (no link - archived already)
By Michael Gleeson
May 8, 2006
AFL umpiring boss Jeff Gieschen has told St Kilda coach Grant Thomas that the umpiring in the Saints' loss to Port Adelaide a fortnight ago was about the worst in Gieschen's time at the league.
Thomas yesterday confirmed details of a meeting he had with Gieschen at Moorabbin, reported in The Sunday Age , in which the club protested at the umpiring.
The Saints counted 14 umpiring errors in the match. Gieschen admitted to 13 but was later persuaded to the 14th. At least four of the erroneous free kicks led to Port Adelaide goals in a match the Power won at home by four points.
"I'd hate to think it was anything else other than just a bad day. It was a four-point ball game, it was very tight, and we were very frustrated with a lot of the things that happened . . ," Thomas told 3AW.
"The unfortunate thing was when we inquired about how many mistakes against Port Adelaide, it was zero, so 14 to zero, it does hurt a side when it's that balance and Jeff acknowledged it was a very poor performance, one of the worst that he's been associated with, and I think two of the South Australian umpires didn't umpire the following week."
Thomas asked whether the umpires were treating St Kilda with greater severity given his outburst last year, in which he suggested umpires' egos affected their jobs. It precipitated the "whispers in the sky" affair after several decisions went against the Saints against Fremantle in Perth.
It was claimed that an umpire said, as he boarded the plane after St Kilda's narrow loss, words to the effect of "now I know what it is like to have a win". The AFL investigated the issue and could find no merit in the claim.
"I think it was our right to ask that question only because you go back to the Fremantle game in round 21 last year and Jeff also acknowledged that was a poor day," Thomas said.
"We just asked the question, is there anything we need to do to ensure things are looked upon in more balance? Jeff's response was he doesn't think so but he'll make inquiries for us.
"We don't want to start World War III on this, but it's human nature if someone is offended, and they were obviously offended and that's why I got fined $20,000 and that's why I apologised … what Jeff's acknowledged is that they've had a couple of poor umpiring days and I suppose that can happen."
The St Kilda coach also raised the point of pressure loaded onto AFL umpires consistently umpiring in their home state. "It's a real cauldron at AAMI Stadium, as it is at Subiaco," he said.
"Those guys have got to front up to work on Monday and they're darned if they do and darned if they don't.
"There is never any suggestion of anything other than interpretation but because of that fact, interpretation, it puts enormous pressure on especially when there's 50,000 screaming fans and 44,000 are local fans …
"The game has got to a level of professionalism that we do require a different balance and that's the same for Melbourne-based games when you have interstate teams travelling to Melbourne."
Port beat us 14-0 in ump blunders (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,19059073%255E19742,00.html)
08 May 2006 Herald Sun
David Hastie
ST KILDA coach Grant Thomas yesterday claimed umpiring errors, verified by AFL director of umpiring Jeff Gieschen, had cost his team victory against Port Adelaide.
Thomas said he used the routine meeting following the Round 4 Monday night game at AAMI Stadium to question the performance of umpires Scott McLaren, Stefan Grun and Michael Avon with Gieschen.
"Jeff basically acknowledged that there were 14 significant errors in the game and 14 were against St Kilda and none against Port Adelaide and in a four-point ball game we just thought that was quite significant," Thomas said.
"And he acknowledged it was quite significant and I don't think those umpires umpired the following week, the two South Australian umpires (Grun and Avon)."
Thomas said the interpretation of the game's rules has led to confusion.
"From time to time, like all coaches and clubs, you get Jeff in and you have a chat about things just to get some clarity and some understanding and try and alleviate frustration," he said. "But they are trying to interpret the best they can.
"But obviously the game is very difficult to interpret and we keep making rules, which unfortunately lends itself to interpretation and when you get into interpretation you can be open for more scrutiny.
"Winning games of footy is what we're about and we thought it was sort of quite significant but we've moved on from that and hopefully there's nothing other than just a bad day."
AFL spokesman Patrick Keane said the meeting was one of many the AFL have with the clubs.
Clearly 14 (more) free kicks in our favour would have overcome the 4 point margin. The way I see it, we were playing interstate with a large crowd all screaming for every home side free kick. The umpires are influenced by this pressure, but it is nearly always the case (in a close match) that the crowd does influence the result. It's called home ground advantage.
We get it too (maybe not to the scale of 14 mistakes, but still a significant skew in our favour). I understand that it is frustrating but it's swings and roundabouts.
I think that it would have been prudent of St Kilda to have kept the Gieschen - Thomas meeting behind closed doors.
Seeing Derek Humphrey Smith on White Line Fever respond to this account, he deflected, mentioning GT's "bamboozled by umpiring decisions" line as "There's a headline - only it was overshadowed by the timekeeper debacle".
Clearly he feels slighted by Thomas.
Do the umpires feel the same way?
Could it be affecting their decisions on the field?
Maybe the whole thing was brought out into the open by the club because after they held closed door sessions after the Fremantle match (whispers in the sky) where Gieschen also admitted the umpires had a bad day, the club felt there was no improvement.
The Freo match was also a tight match in front of a large crowd chiefly supporting the opposition.
Again the same (home ground advantage) disparate umpiring decisions.
I don't think that this problem will be solved easily.
I don't think the umpires make a conscious decision to pay more free kicks to the home side, but I do believe they are influenced by the sheer crowd noise demanding a free kick.
To even it up, the Saints supporters need to attend in great numbers when we play the visiting interstate teams. For that matter, against all opposition. We need to scream our lungs out, literally demanding a free kick whenever we deserve it.