Craig or Ayres - match day coaching

[The Crows Truth]

who is the better match day coach - Craig or Ayres?

IMHO Craig hands down.

Stiffs disagrees and I wonder what other fans think. Cro Mos and Maccas 23 I await your definitive answer :thumbsu:

[The Crows Truth]

reasons Crow Mo? Why is Ayres as good?

[jc67]

Ayres was great defensive coach and mediocre match day.

Craig has implemented a system that accounts for all traditional game plans.
The system IMO is a zone for all occasions with set plays depending on the ball movement through a particular area (zone).

To explain a bit; We all know what a zone for kick in is.
imagine how that same zone would look if the kick in took place on L centre wing
further; if the ball movement is taking a specific line, who has what area and how many players he is covering / or space protecting or being the link.
IMO the system is not so much a game plan but several dozen "play plans"
No game plan except mirroring what we are doing will beat it over the long run, Richmond did this but more to the point with that game, they just got us on a bad day.


Graig creams all over Ayres in all areas of coaching!

[Stiffy_18]

Match day coaching - about equal

Preparation of the team and ability to break down the opposition's game plan to every minute detail and develop a plan to beat it, in the week leading up to the game - Craig by a proverbial. In fact no one in the AFL is better in this aspect of coaching than Craig. Easily heads and shoulders above anyone else.

[Stiffy_18]

Ayres was great defensive coach and mediocre match day.

Craig has implemented a system that accounts for all traditional game plans.
The system IMO is a zone for all occasions with set plays depending on the ball movement through a particular area (zone).

To explain a bit; We all know what a zone for kick in is.
imagine how that same zone would look if the kick in took place on L centre wing
further; if the ball movement is taking a specific line, who has what area and how many players he is covering / or space protecting or being the link.
IMO the system is not so much a game plan but several dozen "play plans"
No game plan except mirroring what we are doing will beat it over the long run, Richmond did this but more to the point with that game, they just got us on a bad day.


Graig creams all over Ayres in all areas of coaching!
I agree with everything you said, BUT what you described there is part of preparation not match day coaching. I very much doubt Craig developed that zone sitting in a coaches' box. It took a lot of planning and practicing during the pre-season so it can be added to our game plan.

Thats not a match day coaching. Thats preparation.

[jc67]

I agree with everything you said, BUT what you described there is part of preparation not match day coaching. I very much doubt Craig developed that zone sitting in a coaches' box. It took a lot of planning and practicing during the pre-season so it can be added to our game plan.

Thats not a match day coaching. Thats preparation.
No argument, but he still does more than ayres did in the box as he has a lot more of a base to work with.
Garry was out of ideas in the second quarter, Craig keeps em coming.
Just a bit flat last week.

[Stiffy_18]

No argument, but he still does more than ayres did in the box as he has a lot more of a base to work with.
Garry was out of ideas in the second quarter, Craig keeps em coming.
Just a bit flat last week.
OK I kind of get the feeling that people don't quite understand the difference between match day coaching and preparation leading up to the game.

Match day coaching is the ability to see what the opposition are doing and act on time with a strategy to counteract it. Eg. go man on man on the weekend when Richmond were playing the way they were. Realising that player X is killing you so you make a move to nullify him. Craig has fallen short in these areas quite a few times. He is a methodical coach who has strategies in place going into the game and doesn't do a hell of a lot during the actual match. Quite often he is too slow to make the move. He usually makes the obvious move when the horse has bolted. Funnily enough, Ayres shared the same characteristic ;)

Preparation is something that occurs during the pre-season and during the week leading up to the game. This is when a coach sits down, develops a game plan, thinks of siruations that may occur during the game and comes up with strategies to counter those situations when they arise. He also comes up with other strategies and plays, rotations and all that stuff. In the week up during the game, he sits down, watches :D:D:D:Dloads of tapes on the opposition and breaks down their game plan to every little detail. He breaks down opposition's set plays, who the go to man is etc. Then he comes up with a strategy to counter that and subsequently win you the game.

Those are 2 clearly different aspects of coaching. No coach develops game plans in the coaches box. Those strategies and game plans are developed and practiced well before the match day.

Craig is a perfectionsit. He is a scientist (I am one and beleive me, I know how we think). He relies on a lot of study and clean data to come up with an ultimate solution. By far, us scientists take a lot of time to gather all the information we need and them we come up with the solution. We don't think quickly on our feet when it comes to coming up with a solution. We need to strufy it and analyze it to get somewhere. Craigy is the same. His preparation is second to none. He will think of just about all the possible scenarios in teh game and come up with a solution to counter them. However, he is not a quick thinker. He is a deep thinker but not a quick one.

Don't get me wrong, overall, he is a fantastic coach but he is not perfect and he does have his weaknesses. Match day coaching is one of those but he more than makes up for that weakness with his exceptional strengths. I don't think there is a coach out there that analyzes situation as deeply and as thoroughly as Craig and I don't think there is a deeper thinker in the game.

[jc67]

OK I kind of get the feeling that people don't quite understand the difference between match day coaching and preparation leading up to the game.

That was a bit condescending stiffy.


I doubt that anyone missed your point the first time.

Speaking as a qualified level 2 SANFL coach, Coaching is almost all done in the preparation, the match day stuff is the reactionary or fluid part of the gig. (the last 10%), Craig is ok at this.
In fact David Parkin (when he speaks at the coaches dinners) talks endlessly about the coaching being complete before the game.

I am not arguing with you!

PS Craig is far better than Ayres in every aspect IMO.

[Messiah]

I reckon Craigy might think a little that knee-jerk match day reactions could destroy all his hard work he has put in before the match. A scientist tends to ignore short term fluctuations and look for long term trends. Obviously didn't work last weekend though.

It's pretty naive (narcissistic even) to think that this man-up stuff never occurred to him or any of the other coaches during the game.

from
http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,18951801-23211,00.html


He said he has never made a match-wining move. He might have back when he coached Norwood but if he did he could not remember it.
"You put a monkey on a piano long enough he will eventually play a tune," Craig said.

[macca23]

who is the better match day coach - Craig or Ayres?

IMHO Craig hands down.

Stiffs disagrees and I wonder what other fans think. Cro Mos and Maccas 23 I await your definitive answer :thumbsu:

Absolutely ridiculous question and a ridiculous poll!!

I have NEVER said that Ayres was a great match day coach - never ever ever ever!!

You are obviously running this farcical poll in response to my criticism of Craig for not manning up last Saturday - a move that the majority of the rest of the football world has stated was blatantly obvious and cost Adelaide victory.

I repeat - Craig is a superb coach overall but has lost more than one match with match day errors.

For a true evaluation of Craig in this one area alone - he is without peer in the majority of other areas - you should have chosen the cream of match day coaches for your comparison - not dumbcluck Ayres.

If you think that Craig coached well on Saturday against Richmond you have no idea at all - none!! :(

[Markthirtytwo]

Craig is far better than Ayres in every aspect IMO.

Exactly. :thumbsu:

[Macca19]

I still think Craig is a better match day coach. I thought Ayres was always ridiculously slow to make a move

[Mad Dog]

no contest - some people have very short memories...:rolleyes:

[showdownhero]

No contest Gary Ayers was THE WORST match day coach in the history of the AFC he seemed incapable of making any decisions on the day to swing a match

[Markthirtytwo]

If you think that Craig coached well on Saturday against Richmond you have no idea at all - none!! :(


NC said last evening that he didnt even speak to the players until three quarter time. It appears he gave the players the say on how to win the game like the past two games that we know of, but they chanced their arm and it didnt work this week.

[macca23]

NC said last evening that he didnt even speak to the players until three quarter time. It appears he gave the players the say on how to win the game like the past two games that we know of, but they chanced their arm and it didnt work this week.

Is that good coaching when you're going down the tube??

[drakeyv2]

Stupid poll.

One close loss & this crap comes out.

[noddy]

Absolutely ridiculous question and a ridiculous poll!!

:(

Absolutely agree,

A silly poll to put up & it's not even the off-season yet.

[SpringChoke]

no contest - some people have very short memories...:rolleyes:

Considering what Craigy has done for the club in such a short time,as a Crows SUPPORTER, I find this question insulting. So Craigy was outcoached on Saturday big deal, what about the 6 out of 8 games so fra this year where he has outcoached the oppositions brains trust.

It seems Port isn't the only SA club that has a high proportion of fairweathered supporters.

[Mad Dog]

FACT:

On the list of "Most games coached without winning a premiership"....Ayres is #5 on the all time list with 223 games....:rolleyes:





MYTH:

Ayres can coach a dog to :D:D:D:D......;)

[marvin]

Is that good coaching when you're going down the tube??

Absolutely it is.

We looked to be struggling at half time against Port. Craig left it to the players and they sorted it out well.

We let a considerable lead dwindle with a poor second term against the Roos. The players sorted it out.

It worked 2 weeks in a row - why change a winning formula?

[Stiffy_18]

That was a bit condescending stiffy.


I doubt that anyone missed your point the first time.

Speaking as a qualified level 2 SANFL coach, Coaching is almost all done in the preparation, the match day stuff is the reactionary or fluid part of the gig. (the last 10%), Craig is ok at this.
In fact David Parkin (when he speaks at the coaches dinners) talks endlessly about the coaching being complete before the game.

I am not arguing with you!
And that my friend is the core of it. Craig is a VERY good coach because his preparation in leading up to the game has no peer. He is not a VERY good coach because he is a "great match day coach" as some put it. You can be a great coach without being a great match day coach, just as you can be a great coach without being great in preparation aspect of the coaching (see Malcolm Blight)

[afc9798]

I still think Craig is a better match day coach. I thought Ayres was always ridiculously slow to make a move

Spot on. Craigy had a bad day on saturday, but let's not fall into judging him based on one hiccup. He will learn from it undoubtedly.

Ayres was frustrating in the extreme with his stubborness and I have no doubt this cost us countless games. Ayres was ego driven and refused to ever entertain the fact that he might have made an error. Craigy on the other hand will take the criticism and put it to good use. He's not infallibe, but I doubt he'd be suckered into making the same mistake twice.:thumbsu:

[SpringChoke]

FACT:

On the list of "Most games coached without winning a premiership"....Ayres is #5 on the all time list with 223 games....:rolleyes:





MYTH:

Ayres can coach a dog to :D:D:D:D......;)

Who are the 4 above him?

[Mad Dog]

Who are the 4 above him?
1. John Northey 315 games (Sydney, Melbourne, Richmond, Brisbane 1985-98)
2. Bob Rose 281 games (Collingwood, Footscray, Collingwood 1964-71, 72-75, 85-86)
3. Bill Stephen 258 games (Fitzroy, Fitzroy, Essendon, Fitzroy 1955-57, 65-70, 76-77, 79-80)
4. Ted Whitten Snr 228 games (Footscray 1957-66, 69-71)

[Vader]

The figures come from this article (http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=267674) on the afl.com.au website.

The relevant lists are reproduced below:

Most games coached

1. Jock McHale: 714 games (Collingwood 1912-49) - eight premierships.
2. Kevin Sheedy 599 games (Essendon 1981- 2006) - four premierships
3. Allan Jeans 575 games, (St Kilda, Hawthorn, Richmond 1961-76, 81-87, 89-90, 92) - four premierships
4. Mick Malthouse 524 games, (Footscray, West Coast, Collingwood) - 1984-2005 - two premierships
5. Tom Hafey 522 games, (Richmond, Collingwood, Geelong, Sydney) - 1966-88 - four premierships
6. Ron Barassi 514 games (Melbourne, Carlton, North Melbourne, Melbourne, Sydney 1964, 1965-71, 73-80, 81-85, 1993-95) - four premierships
7. Norm Smith 449 games (Fitzroy, Melbourne, South Melbourne 1949-51, 52-67, 69-72) - six premierships
8. :D:D:D:D Reynolds 415 games (Essendon 1939-60) - four premierships
9. Percy Bentley 414 games (Richmond, Carlton 1934-55) - three premierships
10. John Kennedy 411 games (Hawthorn, North Melbourne 1960-63, 67-76, 85-89) - three premierships
11. Leigh Matthews 403 games (Collingwood, Brisbane 1986-95, 1999-2006) - four premierships

Most games coached without winning a premiership

1. John Northey 315 games (Sydney, Melbourne, Richmond, Brisbane 1985-98)
2. Bob Rose 281 games (Collingwood, Footscray, Collingwood 1964-71, 72-75, 85-86)
3. Bill Stephen 258 games (Fitzroy, Fitzroy, Essendon, Fitzroy 1955-57, 65-70, 76-77, 79-80)
4. Ted Whitten Snr 228 games (Footscray 1957-66, 69-71)
5. Gary Ayres 223 games (Geelong, Adelaide 1995-2004)
6. Wally Carter 214 games (North Melbourne 1940, 48-53, 58-62)
7. Neale Daniher 184 games (Melbourne 1998-2006)
8. Rodney Eade 182 games (Sydney, Bulldogs 1996-2002, 2005-06)
9. Terry Wallace 178 games (Bulldogs, Richmond 1996-2002, 2005-06)
10. Jack Hale 175 games (South Melbourne, Hawthorn 1948-49, 52-59)
11. Alex Hall 155 games (St Kilda, Melbourne, Richmond, Melbourne, Hawthorn 1906, 07-09, 10, 12-14, 25)
12. Mark Thompson 146 games (Geelong 2000-06)

[Kane McGoodwin]

I still think Craig is a better match day coach. I thought Ayres was always ridiculously slow to make a move
This sums it up in a nutshell. Ayres hardly ever reacted to make an obvious move, when a player was getting slaughtered by his opposition. Craig has shown that he will usually react if something is not going to plan.

All coaches (& players) have their off days - Craig had one on Saturday, but they haven't been as regular as Ayres.

[SpringChoke]

The figures come from this article (http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=267674) on the afl.com.au website.

The relevant lists are reproduced below:

Most games coached

1. Jock McHale: 714 games (Collingwood 1912-49) - eight premierships.
2. Kevin Sheedy 599 games (Essendon 1981- 2006) - four premierships
3. Allan Jeans 575 games, (St Kilda, Hawthorn, Richmond 1961-76, 81-87, 89-90, 92) - four premierships
4. Mick Malthouse 524 games, (Footscray, West Coast, Collingwood) - 1984-2005 - two premierships
5. Tom Hafey 522 games, (Richmond, Collingwood, Geelong, Sydney) - 1966-88 - four premierships
6. Ron Barassi 514 games (Melbourne, Carlton, North Melbourne, Melbourne, Sydney 1964, 1965-71, 73-80, 81-85, 1993-95) - four premierships
7. Norm Smith 449 games (Fitzroy, Melbourne, South Melbourne 1949-51, 52-67, 69-72) - six premierships
8. :D:D:D:D Reynolds 415 games (Essendon 1939-60) - four premierships
9. Percy Bentley 414 games (Richmond, Carlton 1934-55) - three premierships
10. John Kennedy 411 games (Hawthorn, North Melbourne 1960-63, 67-76, 85-89) - three premierships
11. Leigh Matthews 403 games (Collingwood, Brisbane 1986-95, 1999-2006) - four premierships

Most games coached without winning a premiership

1. John Northey 315 games (Sydney, Melbourne, Richmond, Brisbane 1985-98)
2. Bob Rose 281 games (Collingwood, Footscray, Collingwood 1964-71, 72-75, 85-86)
3. Bill Stephen 258 games (Fitzroy, Fitzroy, Essendon, Fitzroy 1955-57, 65-70, 76-77, 79-80)
4. Ted Whitten Snr 228 games (Footscray 1957-66, 69-71)
5. Gary Ayres 223 games (Geelong, Adelaide 1995-2004)
6. Wally Carter 214 games (North Melbourne 1940, 48-53, 58-62)
7. Neale Daniher 184 games (Melbourne 1998-2006)
8. Rodney Eade 182 games (Sydney, Bulldogs 1996-2002, 2005-06)
9. Terry Wallace 178 games (Bulldogs, Richmond 1996-2002, 2005-06)
10. Jack Hale 175 games (South Melbourne, Hawthorn 1948-49, 52-59)
11. Alex Hall 155 games (St Kilda, Melbourne, Richmond, Melbourne, Hawthorn 1906, 07-09, 10, 12-14, 25)
12. Mark Thompson 146 games (Geelong 2000-06)

Cheers lads.

[AdelaideFan]

Wouldnt this put Gary Ayres number two in the AFL though? Poor old Di ck to his name cant be posted!!!

[The Crows Truth]

Absolutely ridiculous question and a ridiculous poll!!

I have NEVER said that Ayres was a great match day coach - never ever ever ever!!

You are obviously running this farcical poll in response to my criticism of Craig for not manning up last Saturday - a move that the majority of the rest of the football world has stated was blatantly obvious and cost Adelaide victory.

I repeat - Craig is a superb coach overall but has lost more than one match with match day errors.

For a true evaluation of Craig in this one area alone - he is without peer in the majority of other areas - you should have chosen the cream of match day coaches for your comparison - not dumbcluck Ayres.

If you think that Craig coached well on Saturday against Richmond you have no idea at all - none!! :(

Mac 23

Slow down son. You are way off beam here mate. A few points:

(1) At NO stage have I explicitly stated, or even intonated, that you feel Ayres is/was a good match day coach.

(2) This poll had NOTHING to do with YOUR comments. It was in direct response to Stiffs 18 along with his fellow musketeer Crow Mos stating in another thread that Ayres was equally as good match day coach as Craig. I was literally flabergasted by this view - I still am even with due reflection time. I found their view to be extremely biased, reactionary and short sighted (to one poor performance on the weekend) and overly critical of Craig (I know they stongly opposed Craig in the 1st place but thought they may have left this behind now). I felt so strongly about their (IMO) misplaced views and wanted the opinions of the wider Crows community. From what I am seeing in the poll results (30 votes vs Cros Mos/Stiffs 2) means that currently, without exception, people in the poll would indeed suggest that Craig IS the better match day coach. That was the opinion I was seeking - and people have responded in a very definiteive way. By your latest comments I assume you think Craig is the better match day coach - add them to the poll old son - the 'trend is our friend' ;)

(3) I am not disputing Craigs match day coaching has cost us games. I stated at least 4 times yesterday (including posts directly to yourself) that he had a shocker on the weekend. As a consequence, I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion that I think he coached well on the weekend. You are way off beam with this one. I also stated that Wallace and Eade are the best match day coaches in the AFL. IMHO however Craig is in the next batch after that.


Overall Mac 23 I like reading your posts but feel the above is very unfair and not accurate as I have pointed out. Play the ball not the man old son ;) :thumbsu:

Cheers

[Vader]

Wouldnt this put Gary Ayres number two in the AFL though? Poor old Di ck to his name cant be posted!!!

Surely he'd be #1, if you're only talking AFL (excluding VFL).

Depends how many of Northey's games were coached under the auspices of the VFL banner.

[passamore]

I agree with everything macca23 says.
Craig is very,very good but he is not the perfect coach. He hasn't even had his 50-game milestone yet, so he is going to get better and better.

[WeSt CoAsT EaGLeS]

Neil Craig.

He's put Adelaide in a very commanding position and they have been premiership contenders ever since he came into the coaches seat. He really means business.

[Crow-mo]

reasons Crow Mo? Why is Ayres as good?

why isn't he? both prepare, in different ways, and let the game play out.

no difference at all, and as we have found out, you are not able to substantiate your views on what craig does and does not do.

those sheep blindly suggesting craig, have the same type of mentality that says Grant Thomas is a good match day tactician. unable to discern what the difference is between one thing and the other.

[Crow-mo]

OK I kind of get the feeling that people don't quite understand the difference between match day coaching and preparation leading up to the game.


and therein lies the issue.

[Crow-mo]

no contest - some people have very short memories...:rolleyes:

indeed, including those who have forgotten who was in the box with him? ;)

[The Crows Truth]

why isn't he? both prepare, in different ways, and let the game play out.

no difference at all, and as we have found out, you are not able to substantiate your views on what craig does and does not do.

those sheep blindly suggesting craig, have the same type of mentality that says Grant Thomas is a good match day tactician. unable to discern what the difference is between one thing and the other.

Crow Mos

There is a helluva lot of subjectivity between what is a 'match day move' relative to a 'pre-match day move'. In fact in most instances when a significant move is made on match day we would have NFI whether it was pre-planned or spontaneous. One of a million examples - put Smart to the forward line in 98 GF? Pre-planned or match day move?

Surely even you can see this point, cant you? :confused:

Funny how the 86% of crows supporters disagreeing with you and choosing Craig are all suddenly sheep now also......:rolleyes:

[passamore]

indeed, including those who have forgotten who was in the box with him? ;)

i have sat in a car that finished up in a crash. i blamed the driver not the passengers.

[passamore]

Why are we undermining Neil craig? Or are we just trying to remember that he replaced Gary Ayres and feel good for that?

[The Crows Truth]

why isn't he? both prepare, in different ways, and let the game play out.


the only objective data that would incorporate match day coaching is match day results.

Craigy wins hands down with his results. Or are you going to also try and argue this point :confused:

[Crow-mo]

So Craigy was outcoached on Saturday big deal,

Springy,

that's my point entirely. no one brings everything to the table, sometimes you take rough with the smooth. On balance, no one is expecting miracles, or questioning his impact. However, everyone is better at some things than others, and when on occasion the softer side of someone's make up rears its head, people will talk about it.

that's all.

I am just waiting for someone with dilated pupils to say "we don't question the leader..."

this has been blown out of proportion by someone who was unable to understand what was being said, and instead went off on one to try to cover this up.

[Crow-mo]

FACT:

On the list of "Most games coached without winning a premiership"....Ayres is #5 on the all time list with 223 games....:rolleyes:



where is he on the alltime list of games coached and winning % ;)

Myth: your fact means anything..

[The Crows Truth]

indeed, including those who have forgotten who was in the box with him? ;)

Cros Mos

A little example for you

If a Fund Manager says go overweight in a certain sector and categorically f*cks up this call, it doesnt matter how good the stock pickers are in his team. The team still underperforms the benchmark on most occasions

[Crow-mo]

Absolutely it is.

We looked to be struggling at half time against Port. Craig left it to the players and they sorted it out well.

We let a considerable lead dwindle with a poor second term against the Roos. The players sorted it out.

It worked 2 weeks in a row - why change a winning formula?

that's fine when it works, but when it doesn't, it will be discussed.

it is also completely irrelevant to the issue of matchday coaching; all you are saying is if he prepares properly and backs his players all will be sweet. you might be right. but this does inform a debate on his matchday abilities, all it says is he often chooses not to engage in matchday adjustments.

[Stiffy_18]

(2) This poll had NOTHING to do with YOUR comments. It was in direct response to Stiffs 18 along with his fellow musketeer Crow Mos stating in another thread that Ayres was equally as good match day coach as Craig. I was literally flabergasted by this view - I still am even with due reflection time. I found their view to be extremely biased, reactionary and short sighted (to one poor performance on the weekend) and overly critical of Craig (I know they stongly opposed Craig in the 1st place but thought they may have left this behind now). I felt so strongly about their (IMO) misplaced views and wanted the opinions of the wider Crows community. From what I am seeing in the poll results (30 votes vs Cros Mos/Stiffs 2) means that currently, without exception, people in the poll would indeed suggest that Craig IS the better match day coach. That was the opinion I was seeking - and people have responded in a very definiteive way. By your latest comments I assume you think Craig is the better match day coach - add them to the poll old son - the 'trend is our friend' ;)

(3) I am not disputing Craigs match day coaching has cost us games. I stated at least 4 times yesterday (including posts directly to yourself) that he had a shocker on the weekend. As a consequence, I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion that I think he coached well on the weekend. You are way off beam with this one. I also stated that Wallace and Eade are the best match day coaches in the AFL. IMHO however Craig is in the next batch after that.
What an absolute load of CR*P!!!!!!

Firstly, I am not against Craig in any way shape or form. I happen to rate him highly but is he perfect? No. Does the sun shine out of his ass as some here think? No.

Tell me how and I biased against Craig? When Ayres got the chop, I wasn't against Craig. If you search my posts back then, you would find that I argued with macca23 and others pretty strongly on this fact. That all changed when we got flogged by Brisbane. Thats when I turned against Craig. He has been a fantastic coach for us. To quote Triggy, "a perfect fit". There is not a coach out there that I would have instead of Craig. Not one.

Now, my views on Craig's match day coaching ability are not based on one game. Its based on what I have seen since he coached us for the first time in Round 14, 2004. My opinion on his match day coaching has been based on games I have watched since then. He is not hopeless in this aspect of coaching but he is not as good as people make him out to be. Overall he is a fantastic coach.

As for the view being short sighted, I say Pot. Kettle. Black. SO are you saying to me when we go into a rebuilding phase and we start losing games on the trot (which will happen) then Craig wouldn't be a good match day coach because we have lost X out of Y games? :confused:

I am not bagging Craig. Everyone can have a bad day. Now just because I think that Craig is not a great match day coach doesn't mean that I don't rate him.

Now onto Gary Ayres, isn't it funny how people love to stick the boots in. Yes his time at Adelaide was up and it was time to move on. Is he as bad a coach as people make him out to be? I don't think so. He took on a club that was an absolute rabble. He got a burnt out squad turned them into a competative unit which always had a crack. Now we lost games for a number of reasons but Ayres is not a heck as a lot of here would have you believe. He still wins a fair share of his games but he doesn't have that extra bit that will take you all the way. People still forget that Ayres is the only coach in our history that took us to finals for 3 consecutive years. Not even the great Malcolm Blight could do that.

As an overall package, Craig is a far superior coach to Ayres but as far as their actual match day coaching is concerned, there is not a lot of difference between the two. Its just that people have turned a blind eye to it because we have been winning a LOT of games.

[The Crows Truth]

What an absolute load of CR*P!!!!!!


Stiffy - I felt your view on this issue was biased. Thats the point - not that you are biased overall to Craig. I understand youve supported Craigy (with a little deviation at times). I feel you were unfairly critical to Craigy for one poor performance. IMHO Craig is certainly a better match day coach than Ayres - a massive majority of fans agree. And now Crow Mos calls us all sheep :rolleyes: Ayres was an average-good AFL coach. Craig is better than that - no question !

Re you having questioned his match day coaching previously, if I missed that comment previously then my mistake andim sorry. Rightly or wrongly I have felt that you sometimes do jump on a bandwagon too fast - thats my view - I could be wrong. As an example you said the other day that you and CroW Mos have both been saying for a long time that this draft could be the perfect draft to pick up players and trade away picks (arbitrage as CM calls it). Well I noticed you agreed with him on this point a day or so earlier but after reading posts from previous months I couldnt see that you had ever made this point previously. Hence I dont understand your post saying you had felt this way for a long time now. Thats just an example :)

[*PAF]

Am I allowed to post an outsiders opinion or will I get my head chopped off from all sides? :p

[The Crows Truth]

Am I allowed to post an outsiders opinion or will I get my head chopped off from all sides? :p

go ahead mate - we await your normal considered response :thumbsu: (still waiting for Crow Mos also by the way)

[*PAF]

go ahead mate - we await your normal considered response :thumbsu: (still waiting for Crow Mos also by the way)
OK thanks CT, here we go. *PAF says as head is tucked in shirt* :D

I voted about the same as I have not yet seen evidence that he is better, but he is certainly no worse IMO.

Craig so far has not lost enough games to say he has a flaw in his matchday coaching, nor has he won enough games where he has had to alter his gameplan dramatically. Certainly not in the "few" games I have seen.

What he has been outstanding at was coming up with a gameplan that is very hard to beat whilst the interchange rules remain as they are, and it will also be hard to copy as the number one ingredient is a very very good fitness base and player management to complements that. Both areas that he has absolutely excelled in.

The game on the weekend he was outfoxed and wasn't able to respond in time, it now remains to be seen if other coaches take that onboard, and if they do then you will soon find out just how good Craig is or isn't.
It could end up being like the midfield flood Vs Port Adelaide in 2001. Great high scoring team before that, but had to alter tactics somewhat afterwards as Eade had exposed them.

[Crow-mo]

go ahead mate - we await your normal considered response :thumbsu: (still waiting for Crow Mos also by the way)

for someone who has ducked, dived, avoided all points, and been exposed as not knowing even what the subject actually is, this is too funny!

[The Crows Truth]

for someone who has ducked, dived, avoided all points, and been exposed as not knowing even what the subject actually is, this is too funny!

You will starring in the sequel to Meet The Feebles if you cant do better than that

Answer the questions raised

[Crow-mo]

Cros Mos

A little example for you

If a Fund Manager says go overweight in a certain sector and categorically f*cks up this call, it doesnt matter how good the stock pickers are in his team. The team still underperforms the benchmark on most occasions

what?

1. depends on the benchmark.
2. stock pickers? wtf. do they have a dartboard as well?
3. said fund manager is going to have consulted with everyone all around him, and he ain't going out there on his own.
4. the fund manager has a mandate, and needs to justify his weightings to both the client and the board.
5. he may have very good instincts on emerging markets mid caps, and made a killing, but it doesn't mean he knows which way cross european energy consolidation is going to swing.

So unless, the "stock picker" has advised in advance of the error of the allocations to the chairman or governance committee, he's in it as much as everyone else. the funds manager ain't no island.

but this is a silly example all round.

[Crow-mo]

Stiffy - I felt your view on this issue was biased. Thats the point - not that you are biased overall to Craig. I understand youve supported Craigy (with a little deviation at times). I feel you were unfairly critical to Craigy for one poor performance. IMHO Craig is certainly a better match day coach than Ayres - a massive majority of fans agree. And now Crow Mos calls us all sheep :rolleyes: Ayres was an average-good AFL coach. Craig is better than that - no question !

and we keep asking you why you think Craig is a good match day coach, seeing as it's part of his philosophy to not engage heavily in match day adjustments from the box. craig was also part of Ayres match committee, which attracted the same criticism.

we have also shown you do not understand the difference between match day coaching, and preparation. So your opinions on his matchday abilities are a little compromised, by the fact you don't know what matchday performance actually is, let alone how good or bad Neil Craig's is.



Re you having questioned his match day coaching previously, if I missed that comment previously then my mistake andim sorry. Rightly or wrongly I have felt that you sometimes do jump on a bandwagon too fast - thats my view - I could be wrong. As an example you said the other day that you and CroW Mos have both been saying for a long time that this draft could be the perfect draft to pick up players and trade away picks (arbitrage as CM calls it). Well I noticed you agreed with him on this point a day or so earlier but after reading posts from previous months I couldnt see that you had ever made this point previously. Hence I dont understand your post saying you had felt this way for a long time now. Thats just an example :)

look you cracked a wobbly and got exposed pretty quickly. this crap about stiffy being a bandwagoner, just reflects even more poorly on you.

[Crow-mo]

Answer the questions raised

after you clown

[The Crows Truth]

after you clown

my lunch date i s here waiting - will come back to you old son :thumbsu:

[macca23]

Stiffy - I felt your view on this issue was biased. Thats the point - not that you are biased overall to Craig. I understand youve supported Craigy (with a little deviation at times). I feel you were unfairly critical to Craigy for one poor performance. IMHO Craig is certainly a better match day coach than Ayres - a massive majority of fans agree.



Mate, you're not doing very well here. You seemed to have changed sides.

I was the one that was arguing that it was a poor performance by Craig and cost the match - you were arguing that it wasn't. :confused:

That's why you started this absurd thread in the first place.

Strange. Very strange. :confused:

[Crow-mo]

Mate, you're not doing very well here. You seemed to have changed sides.

I was the one that was arguing that it was a poor performance by Craig and cost the match - you were arguing that it wasn't. :confused:

That's why you started this absurd thread in the first place.

Strange. Very strange. :confused:

it's called twisting in the wind. though I think the changing sides must mean either he is very confused, or just wants someone to talk to. or both :eek:

[dyertribe]

Mate, you're not doing very well here. You seemed to have changed sides.

I was the one that was arguing that it was a poor performance by Craig and cost the match - you were arguing that it wasn't. :confused:

That's why you started this absurd thread in the first place.

Strange. Very strange. :confused:

Benny Hill Theme

[The Crows Truth]

Mate, you're not doing very well here. You seemed to have changed sides.

I was the one that was arguing that it was a poor performance by Craig and cost the match - you were arguing that it wasn't. :confused:

That's why you started this absurd thread in the first place.

Strange. Very strange. :confused:



Macca

Perhaps part of the confusion lies in the fact you and Crow Mo are failing to respond to posts directed at yourself (for whatever reason). Instead you are taking posts I have directed to other members of this forum and responding to these and taking things out of context (the way it seems from my perspective)

I have copied post number 30 from this thread below. Please review and respond to this .

I am confused by you saying ive changed sides. I feel I have consistently said Craig is a good match day coach in recent threads (perhaps top quartile but not leagues best) but had a shocker on the weekend. Nothing has changed with this view has it?

Re why did I start this thread - please see point 2 below. Feel free to also vote if you havent already. I personally think calling it absurd/ridiculous is over the top - but mate lets agree to disagree. 50 odd people have voted in 24 hrs so thankfully not all agree :)



Mac 23

Slow down son. You are way off beam here mate. A few points:

(1) At NO stage have I explicitly stated, or even intonated, that you feel Ayres is/was a good match day coach.

(2) This poll had NOTHING to do with YOUR comments. It was in direct response to Stiffs 18 along with his fellow musketeer Crow Mos stating in another thread that Ayres was equally as good match day coach as Craig. I was literally flabergasted by this view - I still am even with due reflection time. I found their view to be extremely biased, reactionary and short sighted (to one poor performance on the weekend) and overly critical of Craig (I know they stongly opposed Craig in the 1st place but thought they may have left this behind now). I felt so strongly about their (IMO) misplaced views and wanted the opinions of the wider Crows community. From what I am seeing in the poll results (30 votes vs Cros Mos/Stiffs 2) means that currently, without exception, people in the poll would indeed suggest that Craig IS the better match day coach. That was the opinion I was seeking - and people have responded in a very definiteive way. By your latest comments I assume you think Craig is the better match day coach - add them to the poll old son - the 'trend is our friend'

(3) I am not disputing Craigs match day coaching has cost us games. I stated at least 4 times yesterday (including posts directly to yourself) that he had a shocker on the weekend. As a consequence, I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion that I think he coached well on the weekend. You are way off beam with this one. I also stated that Wallace and Eade are the best match day coaches in the AFL. IMHO however Craig is in the next batch after that.


Overall Mac 23 I like reading your posts but feel the above is very unfair and not accurate as I have pointed out. Play the ball not the man old son

Cheers

[The Crows Truth]

but this is a silly example all round.

mate agree - silly analogy :thumbsu: The point is when business goes bad or a team underperforms the buck normally stops at the top (CEO or coach in the AFL). They earn the big bucks and take ultimate responsibility for the teams performance - MUCH MUCH more than the assistants. You cant seriously argue that an assistant coach would have as much bearing on the teams results as the Senior coach? Thats the point I was trying to make

[The Crows Truth]

and we keep asking you why you think Craig is a good match day coach, seeing as it's part of his philosophy to not engage heavily in match day adjustments from the box. craig was also part of Ayres match committee, which attracted the same criticism.

we have also shown you do not understand the difference between match day coaching, and preparation. So your opinions on his matchday abilities are a little compromised, by the fact you don't know what matchday performance actually is, let alone how good or bad Neil Craig's is.




look you cracked a wobbly and got exposed pretty quickly. this crap about stiffy being a bandwagoner, just reflects even more poorly on you.


Crow Mos - I asked the following in another post that you didnt respond to. I would appreciate your input (see post 37 from this thread copied below).

Re your other comment regarding Stiffy - dont misqoute me. 'SOmeone sometimes jumping on a bandwagon too fast' isnt the same as being a 'bandwagger'. Small but subtle difference. I provided an example about Stiffy agreeing with you on trading away picks this trade period coming and mentioned I couldnt find any evidence of him supporting this 'long term view' that Stiffy mentioned. Feel free to prove me wrong :thumbsu:




Crow Mos

There is a helluva lot of subjectivity between what is a 'match day move' relative to a 'pre-match day move'. In fact in most instances when a significant move is made on match day we would have NFI whether it was pre-planned or spontaneous. One of a million examples - put Smart to the forward line in 98 GF? Pre-planned or match day move?

Surely even you can see this point, cant you?

Funny how the 86% of crows supporters disagreeing with you and choosing Craig are all suddenly sheep now also......

[macca23]

Mac 23


(3) I am not disputing Craigs match day coaching has cost us games. I stated at least 4 times yesterday (including posts directly to yourself) that he had a shocker on the weekend. As a consequence, I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion that I think he coached well on the weekend. You are way off beam with this one. I also stated that Wallace and Eade are the best match day coaches in the AFL. IMHO however Craig is in the next batch after that.



I'm really confused after reading this.

That's all I was saying in the first place when you disgreed with me many words ago, by referring to his overall coaching record rather than the match in question.

It appears we are both Craig fans who think he had a poor game on Saturday. :thumbsu:


If that's the case then I think we should both cut the crap and leave it at that. ;)

[The Crows Truth]

I'm really confused after reading this.

That's all I was saying in the first place when you disgreed with me many words ago, by referring to his overall coaching record rather than the match in question.

It appears we are both Craig fans who think he had a poor game on Saturday. :thumbsu:


If that's the case then I think we should both cut the crap and leave it at that. ;)

lets agree to disagree - cant also be stuffed going over old words again :thumbsu: cheers mac 23

[Mad Dog]

where is he on the alltime list of games coached and winning % ;)

Myth: your fact means anything..
don't be so defensive Gary....the fact is accurate....it was your interpretation that pricked your sensativities......;)