View Full Version : George Dubbya and the Pakis...
Dippers Donuts
10 Jan 2002, 22:39
This item just in...
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The White House said yesterday that US president George W. Bush meant no disrespect to the Pakistani people by referring to them as "Pakis".
"The president has great respect for Pakistan, the Pakistani people and the Pakistani culture. Pakistan has been a strong member of the international coalition in the war against terrorism," Whit House spokesman Scott McClellan said.
Mr Bush used the term in remarks to reporters yesterday when discussing the possibility of nuclear rivals India and Pakistan going to war.
"I don't believe the situation is defused yet, but I do believe there is a way to do so, and we are working hard to convince both the the Indians and the Pakis there's a way to deal with their problems without going to war," Mr Bush said.
Most Americans are unaware of the sensitivity of the term. In the UK, however, it is considered an ethnic slur towards Pakistanis who migrated there in the 1960s and 1970s.
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source:The Australian
Onya Georgey boy
:p
You'd think, being President, someone might have told him.
Dippers Donuts
11 Jan 2002, 23:52
You'd also think, being President, even if no one told him, he might just have a smidgin of an idea of cultural sensitivities.
Maybe not, after all, this is the man who amongst things said "never misunderestimate me".
My signature is also a dubbyaism...
(At least he didn't refer to the indians as the redskins...)
HAHA :D
Good old Dubbya does it again
Blues_Brat
12 Jan 2002, 16:37
Highlights the need for cultural sensitivity, diffrent people find some things insulting, while others wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. I guess Dubya probably assumed it was like calling an Australian an 'Aussie'.
London Dave
12 Jan 2002, 19:03
Or a citizen of Greece a Grecian (gotta like that one)
All in the mind of the beholder. I remember when my son insisted on being called Robert, Rob weas an insult and Bob was the worst thing anyone could call him. It's nothing to do with the sensitivity of the person giving the name call it's all about the receiver's mental shortcomings.
Bob, Paki, Yank, Abo, Pom, Wop, Diego, Limey, Kiwi, Turbanwaller, Niger (Nigerian).they are all terms of identification readily understood and contributing to the understanding of a phrase.
99.9% of the time no insult is intended. I have stated before that it is impossible to have anyone upset you by words. It is always you that chooses whether to be upset or not so the onus is squarely on your shoulders. And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times, but addressing the issue of the recipients problem is the way forward and NOT political correctness.
Dippers Donuts
13 Jan 2002, 23:38
Originally posted by Frodo
All in the mind of the beholder. I remember when my son insisted on being called Robert, Rob weas an insult and Bob was the worst thing anyone could call him. It's nothing to do with the sensitivity of the person giving the name call it's all about the receiver's mental shortcomings.
Bob, Paki, Yank, Abo, Pom, Wop, Diego, Limey, Kiwi, Turbanwaller, Niger (Nigerian).they are all terms of identification readily understood and contributing to the understanding of a phrase.
99.9% of the time no insult is intended. I have stated before that it is impossible to have anyone upset you by words. It is always you that chooses whether to be upset or not so the onus is squarely on your shoulders. And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times, but addressing the issue of the recipients problem is the way forward and NOT political correctness.
Absolutely astounding...
Indeed.
First of all the slang word "******" comes from the word "negro", from the word for "black". Not Nigeria.
Second of all, Frodo you can say some particularly ignorant things sometimes.
Originally posted by Frodo
All in the mind of the beholder. I remember when my son insisted on being called Robert, Rob weas an insult and Bob was the worst thing anyone could call him. It's nothing to do with the sensitivity of the person giving the name call it's all about the receiver's mental shortcomings.
Bob, Paki, Yank, Abo, Pom, Wop, Diego, Limey, Kiwi, Turbanwaller, Niger (Nigerian).they are all terms of identification readily understood and contributing to the understanding of a phrase.
99.9% of the time no insult is intended. I have stated before that it is impossible to have anyone upset you by words. It is always you that chooses whether to be upset or not so the onus is squarely on your shoulders. And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times, but addressing the issue of the recipients problem is the way forward and NOT political correctness.
***** idiot!! (insult intended, (in case you misunderstood))
Originally posted by Bluey
Indeed.
First of all the slang word "******" comes from the word "negro", from the word for "black". Not Nigeria.
Second of all, Frodo you can say some particularly ignorant things sometimes.
Firstly, you are wrong about ******, it does come from Nigeria although some American distortion of language is usually the done thing.
Secondly, what have I ignored? Or are you just misusing the English language again. Isn't it about time you learned to string an argument or rebuttal together rather than pen a stupid insult? You're not a lot different to Mags you know, only the swearwords are missing :mad:
Originally posted by 1AD
***** idiot!! (insult intended, (in case you misunderstood))
So a thread dissolves to personal insult with the help of Bluey and 1AD. Not capable of a rational response? Or is the word rational a cue for another silly insulting retort?
PS I reported this one. When foul mouthed abuse becomes the order of the day the child needs a good spanking.
Originally posted by Frodo
Secondly, what have I ignored? Or are you just misusing the English language again.
You know the meaning of the word ignorant Frodo, and your claim that words cannot hurt is certainly that. I understand what you're saying, but you cannot deny that every day people ARE hurt by the words you've used, regardless of whether you think they should be or not.
Originally posted by Frodo
So a thread dissolves to personal insult with the help of Bluey and 1AD. Not capable of a rational response? Or is the word rational a cue for another silly insulting retort?
PS I reported this one. When foul mouthed abuse becomes the order of the day the child needs a good spanking.
I thought no one was hurt by words? personal insult??
make up your mind Frodo, either I didn't say anything bad or my words are hurtful?
Briedis
15 Jan 2002, 14:46
Actually I agree with you Frodo to a degree. If you do not choose to be insulted by someone, then you CAN choose that emotion. In fact, if someone is trying to insult you by using words that they think will offend you the best defence is to try to not let them offend you. It really is up to you to decide whether or not you are offended by these words. Believe it or not, it IS possible to control your emotions...we all do it every day.
Still, most people are not able to control all of their emotions so the point is really an academic one...so using words or phases to annoy or offend someone usually works, therefore society has made these rules (PC) to try and ensure people are not going around offending others.
If you think about it, it is the same as being offended by someone calling you an Aussie, except there is no social "baggage" attached to the word 'Aussie' - it's still just a word....
On the point of Bush, I think it is hard to know the slang from country to country...I mean Paki is not a derogatory term out here or in the US, yet it is in the UK. It's not really that big a deal....
OK Frodo, bring up a name from your past. Something someone may have called you at school, or something you find particularly distasteful. Let me know that name and I will call you that every time I communicate with you. I will have the software replace every occurrence of the word 'Frodo' with that word. Let it serve as a practical demonstration.
ig·no·rant
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
I think, Frodo, it is you who are ignorant of what the word ignorant means. Among other things.
You were offended by me calling you ignorant and in defence you have stated your opinion of my ability to make an argument. This in order to make that argument and the statement that you are ignorant seem to have little worth in the eyes of others.
If you were not offended why would you reply to an argument that, in your eyes, had little worth. Surely if this were the case you wouldn't bother to reply?
1AD - grow up. You are now on probation. One more post like that and you are booted.
Originally posted by Dave
You know the meaning of the word ignorant Frodo, and your claim that words cannot hurt is certainly that. I understand what you're saying, but you cannot deny that every day people ARE hurt by the words you've used, regardless of whether you think they should be or not.
READ MY POST
I never said that people do not get hurt by words and I actually said And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times
Yes, I allow myself (choose) to get emotionally upset as I admit to being at this moment when I would have a much happier life if I was able to not allow myself to be hurt by words that have no truth in them.
It's quite bloody simple actually and most psychologists agree with me 100%. It goes like this. We try and make our lives as happy as we can. If someone calls me a POM and I am upset v someone calls me a POM and I am not upset then the second scenario is the happier one. Therefore learning to control emotions is a pathway to greater happiness and will be more successful than attacking people due to political incorrectness.
Originally posted by 1AD
I thought no one was hurt by words? personal insult??
make up your mind Frodo, either I didn't say anything bad or my words are hurtful?
AGAIN, READ MY POST MR. FOULMOUTH
I said "And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times"
Which puts me in the same boat as most people who cannot control their emotions easily, but I do know quite a few that can and are happier for it.
But with reference to your post it didn't upset me at all. Anyone calling me an idiot may as well spit in their own face because although I may have some mistaken beliefs and at times I don't put my case clearly enough I have no doubts about my being an idiot and my successes in life bear that out. However, I do believe that a peron who can't put forward a rational response to something they disagree with needs telling so and I also believe that this site is seen by many children who don't need to see the obscenities that you seem to enjoy writing so much.
Originally posted by Bluey
OK Frodo, bring up a name from your past. Something someone may have called you at school, or something you find particularly distasteful. Let me know that name and I will call you that every time I communicate with you. I will have the software replace every occurrence of the word 'Frodo' with that word. Let it serve as a practical demonstration.
ig·no·rant
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
I think, Frodo, it is you who are ignorant of what the word ignorant means. Among other things.
You were offended by me calling you ignorant and in defence you have stated your opinion of my ability to make an argument. This in order to make that argument and the statement that you are ignorant seem to have little worth in the eyes of others.
If you were not offended why would you reply to an argument that, in your eyes, had little worth. Surely if this were the case you wouldn't bother to reply?
1AD - grow up. You are now on probation. One more post like that and you are booted.
Well the point is that I was offended and as I keep stating I said "And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times"
I am not saying that I am in control of my emotions at all, although I would prefer it to be so. By all means call me 'OsKaput' instead of Frodo, its the only name I can think of being called at school and it wouldn't worry me. But then again I am advocationg the training of people from a young age to be able to control their emotions that cause them unhappiness, not trying in any way to put myself on a pedestal of Emotional perfection.
Now you say "If you were not offended why would you reply to an argument that, in your eyes, had little worth"
but just where is your argument in the retort Second of all, Frodo you can say some particularly ignorant things sometimes
There is no argument at all, just an insult.
And yes, my english is not perfect, I made a mistake with the word 'ignorant' and didn't look it up but now having done so I would consider your use to be informal so the meaning then becomes :-
2 (informal) with very bad manners: a rude, ignorant person
http://www1.oup.co.uk/elt/oald/
not that it matters......the point is and was that you were insulting me and not contributing to the topic.
It was a statement Frodo, you just took it as an insult.
Dippers Donuts
15 Jan 2002, 23:53
Actually, I have come to the conclusion that old dubbya is a good guy...
Poorly equipped perhaps to be the president (although the yanks did vote for Ronnie Reagan didn't they) but dubbya seems to be like a good, regular guy.
The kind of guy that you could have a few beers with, maybe shoot some pool, have a barbie with etc etc. In short, a good bloke.
His facility to laugh at himself is admirable.
I'll leave you with another Dubbyaism;
"It's time for the human race to join the solar system."
Originally posted by Frodo
AGAIN, READ MY POST MR. FOULMOUTH
I said "And i am as guilty as the next man for allowing myself to make that choice at times"
Which puts me in the same boat as most people who cannot control their emotions easily, but I do know quite a few that can and are happier for it.
But with reference to your post it didn't upset me at all. Anyone calling me an idiot may as well spit in their own face because although I may have some mistaken beliefs and at times I don't put my case clearly enough I have no doubts about my being an idiot and my successes in life bear that out. However, I do believe that a peron who can't put forward a rational response to something they disagree with needs telling so and I also believe that this site is seen by many children who don't need to see the obscenities that you seem to enjoy writing so much.
Firstly I apoligise for the swearing.
I have re-read your post and the statment that the person calling someone "******" (imagine if Bush used this term!!) has nothing to do with the naming but is ALL about the receivers mental shortcomings. Come on ! I have a Aboriginal brother in law and people being funny and calling him a coon and he being upset says ALL about the name caller .
You also say 99.9% of name calling , there is no insult intended. Which Comic book did you get that figure from?
It is not just Political Correctness that should stop someone using these terms but decency.
Calling someone a "wop or ******" is not just a term of identification but if used , I think a term of ause. Why identify my brother in Law as "coon" Is it because he is "different" (as opposed to the Anglo majority)
I still find it amazing that you find that the recipient of the derogative term has the "problem" but not the giver.
Say hello to Bob for me.;)
Originally posted by 1AD
Firstly I apoligise for the swearing.
I have re-read your post and the statment that the person calling someone "******" (imagine if Bush used this term!!) has nothing to do with the naming but is ALL about the receivers mental shortcomings. Come on ! I have a Aboriginal brother in law and people being funny and calling him a coon and he being upset says ALL about the name caller .
You also say 99.9% of name calling , there is no insult intended. Which Comic book did you get that figure from?
It is not just Political Correctness that should stop someone using these terms but decency.
Calling someone a "wop or ******" is not just a term of identification but if used , I think a term of ause. Why identify my brother in Law as "coon" Is it because he is "different" (as opposed to the Anglo majority)
I still find it amazing that you find that the recipient of the derogative term has the "problem" but not the giver.
Say hello to Bob for me.;)
You are to some extent missing the point and developing the weaker parts of the argument rather than trying to understand the point as a whole.
Let's take your brother in law. What upsets him if he is called a coon? Many people identify a black person as a ****** or coon, so it means perhaps 'black person'. So what is offensive about a black person being identified as a black person? So maybe I make up a new word, Doro= Black person and I call your b-i-l a 'doro'. Is he offended? " Hey that guy is calling me a "" black person""!! So what? I was born in England and I am called a POM at times......so what, people are calling me ' a person from England', I am not upset at that truth. If I was from Italy and was called a WOP...so what, people are calling me an Italian.
I regularly abbreviate the word aboriginal into Abo, no offence meant at all but people I am talking to understand exactly what race the person is. Just like Aussie or Yank or Paki or Kiwi.
Admittedly '******' is the odball because it has connotations with black slavery in a similar way to 'Kaffer' in Africa. To that extent a person may use the word in a derogotary sense and be understood by the recipient as being called a black slave which is an unpleasantry. But such words with offensive meaning are the few and I would agree that they should not be used. But consider recognised meanings and dictionary definitions. What is understood as 'racism' is nothing like the dictionary definition. Similarily when someone calls you 'ignorant' you know damn well that it is an insult. Tell me who would not feel offended aif labeled 'ignorant', yet the dictionary paints a different picture, ask Bluey!!!
But going back to the point about your b-i-l. If he had been taught from childhood to control his emotions, analyse what is meant by being called a 'coon', realse that it means 'black man', accept that he is a black man, feel the pride in his heritage.........then smile and be happy, then wouldn't that be a positive step?
We can teach emotional control (but we don't) yet political corectness will only be seen in public and be the subject of insults (unpleasantry) on fora at times with the politicaly incorrect words being used even more in society. And that IS the way of society. Children start to smoke mainly because it is illegal for them. Racial vilification laws will have the same effect away from the public eye, behind the toilet block euphemistically.
So what I am advocating stands a far greater chance of success than political correctness.........and let's face it, if everyone that was called a Coon rationalised it and gave no negative reaction then those that used the term for abuse would soon stop doing so.
Originally posted by Frodo
You are to some extent missing the point and developing the weaker parts of the argument rather than trying to understand the point as a whole.
Let's take your brother in law. What upsets him if he is called a coon? Many people identify a black person as a ****** or coon, so it means perhaps 'black person'. So what is offensive about a black person being identified as a black person? So maybe I make up a new word, Doro= Black person and I call your b-i-l a 'doro'. Is he offended? " Hey that guy is calling me a "" black person""!! So what? I was born in England and I am called a POM at times......so what, people are calling me ' a person from England', I am not upset at that truth. If I was from Italy and was called a WOP...so what, people are calling me an Italian.
I regularly abbreviate the word aboriginal into Abo, no offence meant at all but people I am talking to understand exactly what race the person is. Just like Aussie or Yank or Paki or Kiwi.
Admittedly '******' is the odball because it has connotations with black slavery in a similar way to 'Kaffer' in Africa. To that extent a person may use the word in a derogotary sense and be understood by the recipient as being called a black slave which is an unpleasantry. But such words with offensive meaning are the few and I would agree that they should not be used. But consider recognised meanings and dictionary definitions. What is understood as 'racism' is nothing like the dictionary definition. Similarily when someone calls you 'ignorant' you know damn well that it is an insult. Tell me who would not feel offended aif labeled 'ignorant', yet the dictionary paints a different picture, ask Bluey!!!
But going back to the point about your b-i-l. If he had been taught from childhood to control his emotions, analyse what is meant by being called a 'coon', realse that it means 'black man', accept that he is a black man, feel the pride in his heritage.........then smile and be happy, then wouldn't that be a positive step?
We can teach emotional control (but we don't) yet political corectness will only be seen in public and be the subject of insults (unpleasantry) on fora at times with the politicaly incorrect words being used even more in society. And that IS the way of society. Children start to smoke mainly because it is illegal for them. Racial vilification laws will have the same effect away from the public eye, behind the toilet block euphemistically.
So what I am advocating stands a far greater chance of success than political correctness.........and let's face it, if everyone that was called a Coon rationalised it and gave no negative reaction then those that used the term for abuse would soon stop doing so.
So you bought up your children with the knowledge that the use of words like "Coon and ******" is quite alright?
Like I said why use such words when you KNOW that it will more than likley cause offence even if you meant it differently?
Would you say " look kids see the cripple" loud enought to be heard by him or her, I doubt it...why not?
With political Correctness (PC) where are the PC police? No one stops you saying anything you want except your own decency might stop you instead.
With my B_I_L "Coon " was NEVER used at him to mean Black person , it was always derogatory and I defy anyone to keep emotionally calm in light of this.
Times have changed Frodo, keep up with them. Are you one of those bitter and twisted English migrants thaht left Mother England because the "Coons and Pakis" had ruined the Country? I met plenty of them when I lived in Elizabeth in South Australia
If so, I feel sorry for you Frodo.
sbagman
16 Jan 2002, 12:49
I agree, Frodo, that we choose to be offended or hurt to some extent by our own thought processes. But the application of commonsense should be able to govern what offends and what doesn't. That's just a part of living in society, we all react differently to different things. While stretching the argument to its logical conclusion proves in theory we all shouldn't get offended about anything, the reality is somewhat different.
I also think you are ignoring the historical context of the words being thrown around. Sometimes the offensive meaning has already been established.
It just takes a bit of balance and commonsense.
Sbagman.
Originally posted by 1AD
So you bought up your children with the knowledge that the use of words like "Coon and ******" is quite alright?
Like I said why use such words when you KNOW that it will more than likley cause offence even if you meant it differently?
Would you say " look kids see the cripple" loud enought to be heard by him or her, I doubt it...why not?
With political Correctness (PC) where are the PC police? No one stops you saying anything you want except your own decency might stop you instead.
With my B_I_L "Coon " was NEVER used at him to mean Black person , it was always derogatory and I defy anyone to keep emotionally calm in light of this.
Times have changed Frodo, keep up with them. Are you one of those bitter and twisted English migrants thaht left Mother England because the "Coons and Pakis" had ruined the Country? I met plenty of them when I lived in Elizabeth in South Australia
If so, I feel sorry for you Frodo.
No, I didn't bring up my children to say 'Coon and ******'. Like most chilldren these words, along with swearweords, are learned at school in the playground. (see the imbalance? Emotional reasoning is not taught at school but children learn how to use ugly language. Do you think that is the way forward?)
Again you choose ****** ( a word with a negative meaning) and now add Cripple ( a word with a known meaning) but do not address my main words of Aussie, Pom, Yank, Wop, Abo, etc,
But so what if I said aloud to my children "Look at that poor crippled person, do you think we could help him somehow?" That's honest and the person knows he is a cripple, the remark is not derogatory. However, whispering it so he cant hear what you are saying is probably very annoying to him. Disabled people tend to want to be open and honest about their condition and not have people whispering for fear of upsetting them.
PC is policed by the bigots of society and fora.
So tell me what Coon means? I don't know.........a dark skinned person I would think, a racoon or a brand of cheese. Tell me what you or your bil thinks it means.
You say Are you one of those bitter and twisted English migrants that left Mother England because the "Coons and Pakis" had ruined the Country?
Now I have never called anyone a Coon in my life, but you just have :rolleyes:
As for Paki, yes I call people from Pakistan, Paki's and I call people from Australia Aussies in the same way. If that is being a bad boy, tough, there is no malicious intent so I have nothing to feel bad about.
I left England because I had traveled the world and fell in love with Perth, where my sister and family had lived for 15 years. I thought it was a great place to raise children and had great opportunities for those who wanted to work and were ambitious.
To date my 16 years in this country has resulted in more than $20 million dollars in tax paid to the country so I guess I believe that Australia enjoyed adopting me as much as I did Australia. I took citizenship as soon as I could. England is neither my Mother or home, Perth is.
I do not agree with the way the English government has integrated cultures with vast ghettos being no go areas for white people and police. I worry that Australia will go down the same path. I believe that the educational and health system in England is aweful in comparison to Australia. However, I enjoy English pubs, Cod and chips with curry sauce, Fry's chocolate cream, Aston Villa, ******s and peas, bonfire night and the christmas spirit of England. It's not all black and white!
Changing times :D What would you know?
Dippers Donuts
16 Jan 2002, 23:25
Tony Sadler lives...
:rolleyes:
(Low rent WA retailer for the outtta towners...that's two rolleyes today...past my limit...)
Originally posted by Frodo
vast ghettos being no go areas for white people and police. I worry that Australia will go down the same path.
Changing times :D What would you know?
It all comes down to us and -------------- (please insert name as required, descriptive only and not meant to offend hey Frodo;) )
Have a nice life Frodo
What do I know? Not as much as you and I thank God for that!!
Briedis
17 Jan 2002, 07:10
Originally posted by Bluey
It was a statement Frodo, you just took it as an insult.
Exactly Bluey, which just proves the point that it is the receiver who is in control of the emotion, not the giver....
Originally posted by Briedis
Exactly Bluey, which just proves the point that it is the receiver who is in control of the emotion, not the giver....
Thank you for bringing the thread back to my main point. Sometimes it is easy to be diverted.
Sydneyfan
17 Jan 2002, 10:18
I think Frodo made a good point about the fact that words are just words and it's up to the receiver on how they respond or react to the words directed towards them. Though, I also agree that there are words (such as ****** or abo) which are almost always used to belittle or offend the recipient, therefore the use of such words reflect more on the person using these terms than the recipient who may be offended since these words are almost universally recognised as offensive.
What clouds up the issue is when one person says to another person of the same ethic background a term which is acceptable since they are of the same background, however if someone of a different background said that word to them they would be offended. An example of this is that it's fairly common for (particularly young, male) African-Americans to call each other "******" mostly as a term of endearment, however if someone who is not African-American says to an African-American "******", the recipient is most likely to be deeply offended by the remark.
In a perfect world, people would not be offended by words, or more correctly people would not use words which a recipient could perceive as offensive. However, this is not a perfect world therefore, although I agree it can often be over the top, Political Correctness is needed to minimise the risk of a party being offended (either deliberately or inadvertedly) during interactions with another party.
My best advice is not to use words which have the possibility of offending anyone and then everyone will be happy! ;)