View Full Version : Buckley > Hird > Voss
2006:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/295749Picture-1.gif
Career:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/810185Picture-2.gif
Conclusion:
Buckley > Hird > Voss
Ummm... yes, for 2006. Bucks has a good game last week and you come up with this?
Hirds hardly played a game this year..... much like Bucks' 2005.
Doesnt matter how many threads you make its still
Voss&Hird
*daylight*
Bucks.
As far as career goes, you have to admit there were a number of years Bucks was an outside receiver; while Voss and Hird were in and under players.
:thumbsu:
Coin_Toss
7 Jun 2006, 11:16
Looks pretty convincing, Zeke.
But, IMO, Bucks and Hird > Voss.
Opinion (Ari) Vs Fact (Zeke).
Voss > Hird >> Buckley OBVIOUSLY.
The difference ? Buckley will never win a Premiership so Zeke take that rock out of your arse, you are startign to spout crap again. :thumbsu:
Coin_Toss
7 Jun 2006, 11:19
Voss > Hird >> Buckley OBVIOUSLY.
The difference ? Buckley will never win a Premiership so Zeke take that rock out of your arse, you are startign to spout crap again. :thumbsu:
You're a dimwit!
Teams win premierships, not individuals.
tomthetiger
7 Jun 2006, 11:24
Opinion (Ari) Vs Fact (Zeke).
Rating a footy player is the one time where facts, or stats arent as important as a general consensus. Voss > Hird > Buckley - in terms of career.
Opinion (Ari) Vs Fact (Zeke).
Not really.... my opinion would be that Hird is a God and I want his illigitimate children *clears throat*.
Fact is that Bucks kicks are nearly double that of the other two.... this raises, dramatically, his statistics. Many of the kicks he's had has been that of an outside player. Why? Because he has a long and accurate kicking boot... he can get the ball and pass it 40-50 metres onto someones chest. A fantastic attribute.
A better stat would be hard ball and so on.... the stats youve shown show possessions and disposal and that doesnt make a champion. Its the 1percenters that make a champion. Sitting on the back wing for 5 years cleaning up doesnt make Bucks a better player. Ive no doubt he's a champion in his own right and a fantastic player. An incredible and loyal serveant to the CFC, but it doesnt matter how you slice it.... he's just not Hird or Voss.
And yes, that is my 'opinion', but I think you'll find it's shared amoung peers.
Rating a footy player is the one time where facts, or stats arent as important as a general consensus. Voss > Hird > Buckley - in terms of career.
Buckley has had a far more productive (personally) career than the other two.
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
Buckley has had a far more productive (personally) career than the other two.
So now youre running on opinion?
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
Agree.
So now youre running on opinion?
No. The stats prove it.
konstas_87
7 Jun 2006, 11:36
Ummm... yes, for 2006. Bucks has a good game last week and you come up with this?
Hirds hardly played a game this year..... much like Bucks' 2005.
Doesnt matter how many threads you make its still
Voss&Hird
*daylight*
Bucks.
As far as career goes, you have to admit there were a number of years Bucks was an outside receiver; while Voss and Hird were in and under players.
:thumbsu:
dont bring out the receiver vs in and under argument they get very sensitive if u call little nathan a soft receiver.
stats arent 'fact', there are such things as courage, leadership and presence. obviously this is a 'bay13' thread so enough said, but i know how disappointed i am it was Buckley that went to Collingwood 'TO PLAY MORE FINALS FOOTY :D ', and not Voss...:rolleyes:
No. The stats prove it.
And the stats prove you are back to your rubbish posting. Do you reall ywant other people to regard you as an absolute tool AGAIN ?
if so you are doing a good job of it. :thumbsu:
On career I'd say Voss> Buckley> Hird
konstas_87
7 Jun 2006, 11:38
Buckley has had a far more productive (personally) career than the other two.
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
the other two have the ability to lift the spirit of the whole team in 5 minutes, and make their 'cattle' look good by being such great leaders.
Well when Jimmy the great gets back we will see how well he goes playing in a crap side. Bux has done it many times and was the shining light. Lets see if Jimmy can do it to.
As for Voss, not fit to be included when champs are discussed, champs do not trash talk, belittle opponents and takcle with clenched fists and operate in the grey area of the laws of the game.
Well when Jimmy the great gets back we will see how well he goes playing in a crap side. Bux has done it many times and was the shining light. Lets see if Jimmy can do it to.
As for Voss, not fit to be included when champs are discussed, champs do not trash talk, belittle opponents and takcle with clenched fists and operate in the grey area of the laws of the game.
Or wipe blood on an opponent....Lower than a two bit Bangkok street walker
Extremely tough one. All great players. Take out my bias (leave out Hird) and i would rate Voss, slightly above Buckley.
Both magnificent, but one is a triple premiership captain. Say what you like about his cattle, ONE IS A TRIPLE PREMIERSHIP CAPTAIN!
They are as common as rocking horse sh#t.
Bucks is on par with Hird, Roo and Harvey. Guys like big Nick, Bazza Hall and Jonathon Brown will all join them one day.
But Voss is out there on his own.
Re Zeke's possession stats, if stats really matter, Heath Scotland will be AA this year, and everyone at Collingwood will be pulling there hair out desperately wondering why this guy is not still with them. Voss never received the open ball from his players like Buckley did, so his stats will always be lower. His posessions were the ones that made all independant and unbiased supporters shake there heads in AWE!
Voss is the boss!
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 12:03
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
Great leaders bring the best out of their fellow players. Buckley is not a great leader.
As an interesting aside...
Buckley has consistently been amongst Collingwood's top hard-ball-get ratings for nearly a decade.
Continue to ignore the truth at your own discretion, though.
Voss (3 Premierships) > Hird (2 Premierships) > Buckley (0 Premierships)
Great leaders bring the best out of their fellow players. Buckley is not a great leader.
Disagree, but Voss is a better one...
He would size up the situation and realise that someone needed to change the flow of the game, and that someone was him and he would do it...
Voss (3 Premierships) > Hird (2 Premierships) > Buckley (0 Premierships)
Pike (4) > Voss (3) > Hird (2) > Ablett, Skilton, Buckley, Lockett etc (0)
Yeah, that's a definitive formula you've got going. :rolleyes:
Continue to ignore the truth at your own discretion, though.[/quote]
Zekeman, or shall we call you the bay 13 buccaneer. All unbiased followers of this great game rate the Bucks. Nobody would have him not in there top 5. So chill out.
It is just that all non Pie supporters, do not; by definition, have the black and white blinkers on. We have all seen the two masters play, and everyone thinks that Voss is the boss.
We do not need stats, my bay 13 predator, to decide this. We have all seen them both play for a decade plus.
Bucks makes you sit back and clap hard. Vossy's strength pulls you off your seat.
He is a freak.
But we all still love your Bucks!
VOSS = BOSS
Homer Jnr
7 Jun 2006, 12:20
Zeke and Morgoth and co are so sore that Voss is rated about their boy Nathan by everyone other than themself, that they are now just carrying on like pork-chops.
No one is disputing that Buckley will go down in history as a tremendous player, but in most people's opinons, he will be a little further down the list than Voss and Hird.
Stats mean jack champ
what one produces when it matters, in the big games - is what matters
with the exception of abblett and carey, we havent seen better big game players than sir jim or vossy over the past 15 years
even the most diehard collingwood man can/should admit to that
for mine, voss may JUST be shading jim, but had he not lost the best part of 4 years of his career, james would be by far simply the best
besides, why is robert harveys name never produced in such discussions?
bunsen burner
7 Jun 2006, 12:26
Premierships mean 0 in an individual debate. So those of you spouting flags, shut up. And Zeke, stats mean little.
Hird > Voss > Buckley
[besides, why is robert harveys name never produced in such discussions?[/quote]
It was by me. Bucks = Roo = Hird = Harvey (All 4 very hard to split)
Voss above them all.
As much as Geke likes to go on about it. This whole thread is summarised like this:
Coll supporters rate Bucks 1
Bris Supporters rate Voss 1
Independant supporters rate Voss 1
End of story!
Independant supporters rate Voss 1
There is no such thing as an independant supporter when Collingwood is concerned.
We so polarize the football community that no one is indifferent to us or our players.
Voss > Harvey > Hird > Buckley > Mark Bolton.
maybe they can only be separated in their performances against each other?
hird always has the better of bucks
voss has the edge over jim
cant really comment on voss v bucks head to head
but then again, the quality of team that voss has had the privelege of over the past 5 years has been unrivalled for the best part of 2 decades
maybe they can only be separated in their performances against each other?
hird always has the better of bucks
voss has the edge over jim
cant really comment on voss v bucks head to head
but then again, the quality of team that voss has had the privelege of over the past 5 years has been unrivalled for the best part of 2 decades
And yet he has stood out. Voss has been playing without knees for 6 years. He played the game with a steel rod as a leg for a season.
If you want a comparison between Voss and Bucks watch the 2002 GF. Both dominant performances - pity about the Norm Smith being voted on at 3-quarter time. Vossy's last quarter got the lions home.
if jim didnt miss 7 games with injury in 2003?? was it that year?, its likely he would have gained an extra 3 votes minimum to win the brownlow, buckley, goodes and roo would be brownlowless to date!
would that have altered any opinions?
There is no such thing as an independant supporter when Collingwood is concerned.
We so polarize the football community that no one is indifferent to us or our players.
I think you need to wake up Zeke. Your imagination is running wild. We rate Voss from watching him and admiring his abilities. It has nothing to do with Collingwood.
There are anti collingwood people, like there are with many clubs. But i don't think the Pies would be top of many lists. Maybe 50 years ago, but IMO it is the successful clubs that teams love to hate, not the Pies, Cats, Freo, Doggies of the league! Eddiegate may make a few people dislike Collingwood, but it does not brainwash people into judging Voss over Buckley.
if jim didnt miss 7 games with injury in 2003?? was it that year?, its likely he would have gained an extra 3 votes minimum to win the brownlow, buckley, goodes and roo would be brownlowless to date!
would that have altered any opinions?
If my Aunty had balls, would that alter any opinions on her being a woman?
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 13:01
Premierships mean 0 in an individual debate. So those of you spouting flags, shut up.
It means something if you are captain.
If my Aunty had balls, would that alter any opinions on her being a woman?
Well you are from Tassie, so who knows! ;) :thumbsu:
manmountain
7 Jun 2006, 13:37
what one produces when it matters, in the big games - is what matters
Like Grand Finals for example?
2002 Norm Smith Medallist - Nathan Buckley.
He produces in the big games. Unfortunately he never played a lot of them because his career was spent surrounded by the likes of:
B: Luke Godden Scott Crow Jon Hassall
HB: Kent Butcher Mark Richaardson Frankie Raso
C: Stephen Paterson Shane Watson Mark Fraser
HF: Tony Woods Ben Kinnear Brad Rowe
FF: Alex McDonald Brent Tuckey Paul Sharkey
R: Matthew Francis Jason Wild Chris Curran
That's the calibre of players Buckley was surrounded by the majority of his career at Collingwood, in addition to being coached by Tony Shaw (makes Danny Frawley look like Norn Smith). Now you can all talk all the rubbish you want, but there is no way your precious, oh-so tough leaders in Voss and Hird would have led a team like that anywhere near a finals berth. They owe as much to the players around them (stars like Mercuri, Misiti, Wellman, Leppitsch, Black, Akermanis) as those players owe to Voss and Hird.
If you want to go further and suggest that Voss and Hird make their teammates better players, then surely Buckley deserves similar kudos for leading Collingwood to 2002 and 2003 grand finals with what are widely recognised as just reasonable lists, performing above themselves?
Bottom line. I think Buckley is the best player I have seen in the last decade. Whether any other bozo agrees or not makes no difference to me at all.
Coin_Toss
7 Jun 2006, 13:54
Great leaders bring the best out of their fellow players. Buckley is not a great leader.
Another dimwit!
When we needed someone to take control at the weekend, Buckley did just that!
Holland said the others followed by example.
KING-JAMES
7 Jun 2006, 14:01
There all good why doesw there have to be a best? Get over it.
There all good why doesw there have to be a best? Get over it.
You need to work on your their, there and they're. :)
A good way to look at it.
They're means THEY ARE, AS IN THEY ARE COOOOOL.
There means ITS OVER THERE, PAST THE HILL.
Their means ITS THEIR TASTY SANDWICH NOT MINE.
:thumbsu:
Who the players rate http://www.aflpa.com.au/index.cfm?menuid=D2B025FC-0158-3DFC-4F16358B8D4390B1
Lock this thread!!!!!!
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 14:10
Another dimwit!
When we needed someone to take control at the weekend, Buckley did just that!
Holland said the others followed by example.
I'm not talking about the odd match. I'm talking about over their careers.
Thongdam
7 Jun 2006, 14:12
You need to work on your their, there and they're. :)
A good way to look at it.
They're means THEY ARE, AS IN THEY ARE COOOOOL.
There means ITS OVER THERE, PAST THE HILL.
Their means ITS THEIR TASTY SANDWICH NOT MINE.
:thumbsu:
Huh?!
You are correct but so is this example "why does there have to be a best person". You can't use their or they're in this instance.
Edit: Oops, just noticed the first use of 'There' in KJ's post. I agree with you Ari 100%. A few more posters would do well to watch their use of their/there/they're!
Great leaders bring the best out of their fellow players. Buckley is not a great leader.
Disagree, he showed what a magnificent great leader that he is when he tactically wipes his blood on another player. Change the course of the game that did, what a legend. :thumbsu:
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 14:15
another interesting thing to note with the stats, is that for ages buckley was collingwoods designated kick in player......he would set up play from the backline but none of these disposals would ever count
head to head is interesting, hird always killed the pies but rarely played on bucks, interesting to note that over his career hird has the best record against collingwood
bucks absolutely smashes voss head to head, buckley has awesome team records against the bears & lions
voss has been rubbish against the pies over his career which may be why many pies fans dont really rate him as highly
buckley is better on the big stage too, winning norm smith, bog in a SANFL GF also....equivalent to a VFL flag according to out SA friends!!
where was voss in the 04GF when his team needed him??
where was voss in the 04GF when his team needed him??
Players who have single handed won a GF from their own performance.
Hart 1
Voss 1
Black 1
Buckley 0
Have a nice day. :)
Andrew Mc
7 Jun 2006, 14:22
I have a hard time separating Hird and Voss (I rate Hird just ahead), but have no such problem with Buckley. The other 2 are clearly above him IMHO. Which is not to say he's not a great player, just not as good as the other 2.
Buckley hasnt impacted matches the same way Hird and Voss have.
Obviously this year Buckley has been the better footballer.
Over the year though? Voss Hird then Buckley.
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 14:28
bucks absolutely smashes voss head to head, buckley has awesome team records against the bears & lions
voss has been rubbish against the pies over his career which may be why many pies fans dont really rate him as highly
Lions vs Collingwood
Voss - 14 wins as captain
Buckley - 3 wins as captain
buckley is better on the big stage too, winning norm smith, bog in a SANFL GF also....equivalent to a VFL flag according to out SA friends!!
Grandfinals
Voss - 3 wins and 1 loss as captain
Buckley - 2 losses as captain.
where was voss in the 04GF
playing;)
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 14:30
Players who have single handed won a GF from their own performance.
Hart 1
Voss 1
Black 1
Buckley 0
Have a nice day. :)
it is 22 players who win u a grand final
brizzy lions 22 >>>> collingwood 22
yet buckley led a much weaker squad to almost pinch a flag!
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 14:34
Lions vs Collingwood
Lions - 14 wins as captain
Collingwood - 3 wins as captain
Grandfinals
Voss - 3 wins and 1 loss as captain
Buckley - 2 losses as captain.
playing;)
yeah am aware that brisbane have had a much better overall team then collingwood
look at individual performances, buckley played well against the brions, voss was below his career averages against the pies
buckley has played in 3 grand finals
been bog in two of them, and one of his sides best in an absolute smashing,
voss has played in 4
been his sides best 1, a good player in 01, quiet in 03never been bog, went missing when they actually lost
if people cant seperate team from individual u have issues
Darealrath
7 Jun 2006, 14:35
2006:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/295749Picture-1.gif
Career:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/810185Picture-2.gif
Conclusion:
Buckley > Hird > Voss
Hird only played 10 minutes vs Carlton, which obviously skews his stats. He was playing just as well as Buckley has this season before that.
Pretty pathetic how some are rubbishing Voss (and Hird) on what they're doing now when they're clearly past their best (though Hird especially is still playing great footy when he's there). No one in their right mind should be making career judgements on what's happening now. I doubt anyone thinks any less of Carey for his lack of dominance at the end of his career.
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 14:44
2006:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/295749Picture-1.gif
Career:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/810185Picture-2.gif
Conclusion:
Buckley > Hird > Voss
the most interesting thing is that voss this year is performing at pretty much the same level as he had over his entire career..........he hasn't really dropped off much at all, just was never in the same league as the others
He produces in the big games. Unfortunately he never played a lot of them because his career was spent surrounded by the likes of:
B: Luke Godden Scott Crow Jon Hassall
HB: Kent Butcher Mark Richaardson Frankie Raso
C: Stephen Paterson Shane Watson Mark Fraser
HF: Tony Woods Ben Kinnear Brad Rowe
FF: Alex McDonald Brent Tuckey Paul Sharkey
R: Matthew Francis Jason Wild Chris Curran
That's the calibre of players Buckley was surrounded by the majority of his career at Collingwood,
Now who's fault was that???
"I want to play finals".
"I want to play finals".
I dare any opposition supporter to locate a source or transcript of Nathan Buckley uttering those words.
Good luck. :)
it is 22 players who win u a grand final
brizzy lions 22 >>>> collingwood 22
yet buckley led a much weaker squad to almost pinch a flag!
And I nearly F*CKED Mariah Carey!!!
Key word nearly.
I dare any opposition supporter to locate a source or transcript of Nathan Buckley uttering those words.
Good luck. :)
Maybe Buckley didnt say it, but it was common knowledge.
Becoming A Magpie
Buckley moved from Brisbane to Collingwood after a season with the former, leaving with the belief he more chance of winning a premiership with the Magpies. Ironically, Brisbane would beat Collingwood in two consecutive AFL Grand Finals in 2002 and 2003.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nathan-buckley
So it's settled.
Voss/Hird>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Buckley
I luv these debates they are so entertaining, until the next one!!
Cheers :D
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 15:09
yeah am aware that brisbane have had a much better overall team then collingwood
if people cant seperate team from individual u have issues
Presenting those stats is superfluous. It doesn't take acount of time spent on the field, the position they play, the style of play (eg. possession footy). Maybe Collingwood have relied on Buckley too much, which boosts his stats, but is detrimental to the team. That's why success should be considered because your efforts are wasted if it is not part of a winning gameplan.
The stats also don't accurately represent the influence that the players exert on a match. The reason why Voss (and Brown) are rated highly is because of their ability to impose themselves on a match. This might be a couple of strong tackles or a desperate spoil and 2nd effort or a freakish handball out of the pack. This not only can create a goal out of nothing, but it can also change the course of the match. These types of things are why fans opinions are more accurate than stats, because stats don't take that into account.
Stats are over-rated. See also "Jonathon Brown Conspiracy" thread for more proof. Matt Connell averaged 20+odd possessions a game for Adelaide in 1997-8. Going by the "stats mean everything" rule book, that would make him one of the key match-winners for Adelaide when they went back to back.
Your a moron Zeke
every single one of your posts about Player A > Player B just regurgitates their stats from some Fing website
Do you actally watch games of footy, or just pluck stats where u can find them
Oh and i find it hard to sperate the three, I would just leave it as they are champions of the game/
Who gives a **** whos better then who??
SydneyBomber
7 Jun 2006, 15:59
No one in their right mind should....
zeke does not seem to have a 'right mind'.
this is obvious by the amount of these threads that he keeps starting, and the amount of time he keeps getting bitchslapped in them.
stats do not (alone) prove that player a is better than player b.
is it really that hard to understand? FFS!
interesting to note that it looks like all non-pies supporters have pretty much gone with voss/hird > buckley.
yet again.
please take the hint.
:o
souvo_fc
7 Jun 2006, 16:17
Zeke = brainless
Voss > not by much Hird > Bucks
Voss - 3 GF wins
Hird - 1GF or is it 2, did he play in 93? not sure!
Bucks = 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (could hvae had 3 and i think 4 if he stayed at the bears, but left to 'play premiership footy' lol)
Stats dont mean everything, all have brownlows so are pretty much even,, voss has had more luck
Dont forget Harvey
2 Brownlows, ok no GF's but averages 25possies a week for his whole career!!
souvo_fc
7 Jun 2006, 16:19
Buckley has had a far more productive (personally) career than the other two.
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
if your going on that line, then robert harvey has had a better career.. average 'cattle' like bucks, but produced 1 more brownloaw and better stats!
if your going on that line, then robert harvey has had a better career.. average 'cattle' like bucks, but produced 1 more brownloaw and better stats!
Harvey is a champion, absolute gun.
But no one wants to talk about him, ok?
understudy
7 Jun 2006, 16:40
All champions, anyone who who disrespects any of their achievements, as plenty have done in this thread, is a complete moron. :thumbsd:
So it's settled.
Voss/Hird>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Buckley
I luv these debates they are so entertaining, until the next one!!
Cheers :D
That's how the order always ends up..... ;)
Hird - 1GF or is it 2, did he play in 93? not sure!
Hird was in the 93 GF team yes.... but he didnt captain and was a kid so, while still a contributor, was a passenger to the leadership on the ground.
Harvey is a champion, absolute gun.
But no one wants to talk about him, ok?
:D :cool:
Armageddon
7 Jun 2006, 16:52
Voss > Hird >> Buckley OBVIOUSLY.
The difference ? Buckley will never win a Premiership so Zeke take that rock out of your arse, you are startign to spout crap again. :thumbsu:
Oh.... the guy who wants to sack Sheedy with a massive football knowledge, what an intelligent guy. Missing your fiance as well?
Who the players rate http://www.aflpa.com.au/index.cfm?menuid=D2B025FC-0158-3DFC-4F16358B8D4390B1
Lock this thread!!!!!!
Go back before the lions dominant era and Voss would not be in that list , it is easy to go as a player Brisbane are awesome Voss is there captain so he deserves the award.
Popularity contest = MVP
Go back before the lions dominant era and Voss would not be in that list , it is easy to go as a player Brisbane are awesome Voss is there captain so he deserves the award.
Popularity contest = MVP
Voss is a champion, anyone who thinks otherwise or that Voss didn't deserve awards he got is a fool.
It would be much harder dominating as an individual when you're playing in a team of champions like Brisbane 02,03,04 like Voss did.
Captain_Brown_7
7 Jun 2006, 20:58
2006:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/295749Picture-1.gif
Career:
http://www.imgdumb.com/images/810185Picture-2.gif
Conclusion:
Buckley > Hird > Voss
Conclusion:
You forgot to mention how many premierships each of them has won! :rolleyes:
Theseventhhamster
7 Jun 2006, 21:26
Player MT K H D Avg M Avg HO Avg T Avg FF FA G Avg B SC Rat Avg
Cameron Bruce 10 139 91 230 23 83 8.3 3 0.3 41 4.1 12 11 13 1.3 8 86 1080 108
Nathan Buckley 9 146 65 211 23.4 73 8.1 0 0 21 2.3 11 8 15 1.7 5 95 953 105.9
Bruce > Buckley
Falchoon
7 Jun 2006, 21:30
buckley is better on the big stage too, winning norm smith,
lol :p
konstas_87
7 Jun 2006, 21:36
If my Aunty had balls, would that alter any opinions on her being a woman?
lemme guess shes a collingwood supporter too?
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 22:57
Presenting those stats is superfluous. It doesn't take acount of time spent on the field, the position they play, the style of play (eg. possession footy). Maybe Collingwood have relied on Buckley too much, which boosts his stats, but is detrimental to the team. That's why success should be considered because your efforts are wasted if it is not part of a winning gameplan.
that is an interesting point, does playing in a successful team influence stats
well in collingwoods best year 2003, when they finished second on the home & away ladder buckley had a brilliant season, winning the brownlow, b&f and he was still able to produce a brilliant season statistically he was easily the pies most dominant player, in a dominant team
yet when collingwood were a rabble in 99,00 buckley was still the dominant player in the team, he would dominate no matter what cattle was surrounding him, funny that in 2003 when surrounded by better team-mates he was able to influence the result of more games
success is determined by the team, u get the rewards and accolades when part of a successful team, hence buckley brownlow in 03, yet missed out in 99,00,01
voss best years were 95,96,00,01.............funny that he won the AFL MVP award in 02??
voss will go down as the most decorated player with the most medals, awards, premierships........u cant debate that. but he wasn't the better player
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 23:02
Zeke = brainless
Voss > not by much Hird > Bucks
Voss - 3 GF wins
Hird - 1GF or is it 2, did he play in 93? not sure!
Bucks = 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (could hvae had 3 and i think 4 if he stayed at the bears, but left to 'play premiership footy' lol)
Stats dont mean everything, all have brownlows so are pretty much even,, voss has had more luck
Dont forget Harvey
2 Brownlows, ok no GF's but averages 25possies a week for his whole career!!
you say dont use stats, but then go and use them anyway!!??
by the way harvey did play in the 97 GF, prob would have been the saints best on the day
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 23:16
voss will go down as the most decorated player with the most medals, awards, premierships........u cant debate that. but he wasn't the better player
I probably wouldn't even compare the two because they are different types of players that exert their influence in different ways. But I think there is just as much an argument that Voss is better than Buckley being better so if people are going to put forward Buckley's case then naturally I put forward the opposing view.
And one of the big advantages that Voss has is success. What is the goal of AFL? Is it to get kicks or handballs or hard ball gets or the most tackles. No, that is a means to an end. The goal of AFL is to win matches and premierships, and that is what Voss has done and Buckley hasn't.
And then you would say 'we're comparing individuals not teams'. Buckley may have gotten more possessions, but that is not what Voss is trying to do. Voss is trying to win, and getting as many possessions as possible isn't necessarily the best way to go about it. The reason why the stats don't tell the full story is because it is my opinion that when Voss is involved in the play he has a bigger influence, therefore his stats are of greater benefit to the team.
But you have a different opinion, and we're never going to change one another's mind.
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 23:33
I probably wouldn't even compare the two because they are different types of players that exert their influence in different ways. But I think there is just as much an argument that Voss is better than Buckley being better so if people are going to put forward Buckley's case then naturally I put forward the opposing view.
And one of the big advantages that Voss has is success. What is the goal of AFL? Is it to get kicks or handballs or hard ball gets or the most tackles. No, that is a means to an end. The goal of AFL is to win matches and premierships, and that is what Voss has done and Buckley hasn't.
And then you would say 'we're comparing individuals not teams'. Buckley may have gotten more possessions, but that is not what Voss is trying to do. Voss is trying to win, and getting as many possessions as possible isn't necessarily the best way to go about it. The reason why the stats don't tell the full story is because it is my opinion that when Voss is involved in the play he has a bigger influence, therefore his stats are of greater benefit to the team.
But you have a different opinion, and we're never going to change one another's mind.
agree with most of that
but the only thing i guess we will never agree with is the fact that voss has a bigger influence, because for every kick, tackle, mark etc voss has got buckley has him covered in pure numbers, with plenty to spare!!
yet u say that voss influences more matches, perhaps because when voss kicks the ball he kicks it to j.brown, a.lynch, d.bradshaw or handballs off to aker, n.lappin, l.power etc. all class players.........buckley kicks it to mark richardson, chad liddel and handballs to jason wild, chris curran etc. of course he isn't going to win more games!!
finally put buckley in a team with some decent players(still not comparable to the guns at brisbane) and he still dominates, finds as much as the ball as he always did, but surprise surprise collingwood win more games!!
u can only have an influence on those players around u, buckley had to kick the ball to at least a 75% advantage for his forward for them to get the ball, voss could kick it to a spot where lynch or brown were disadvantaged and they would still get it plenty of times!
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 23:45
u can only have an influence on those players around u, buckley had to kick the ball to at least a 75% advantage for his forward for them to get the ball, voss could kick it to a spot where lynch or brown were disadvantaged and they would still get it plenty of times!
It's funny. I have been defending Brown in the 'Jonathan Brown conspiracy' thread, and the main argument of this theory is that Brown is made to look good by those around him. And here I am defending Voss because those around him make him look good. Not that I disagree with you. I also am of the opinion that Voss had better team mates around him. However I was referring to his influence on the play before his team mates use it (eg. a bullet handball out of a pack). But it's just my observation, I have no proof, and I'm obviously biased.:cool:
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 23:50
It's funny. I have been defending Brown in the 'Jonathan Brown conspiracy' thread, and the main argument of this theory is that Brown is made to look good by those around him. And here I am defending Voss because those around him make him look good. Not that I disagree with you. I also am of the opinion that Voss had better team mates around him. However I was referring to his influence on the play before his team mates use it (eg. a bullet handball out of a pack). But it's just my observation, I have no proof, and I'm obviously biased.:cool:
yes voss does deliver brilliant handballs, but surely buckley being able to hit a bloke lace out over 60m is using the ball extremely well, he was the best field kick going around....still would be up in the top 10 now, so clearly he would have an influence??
would u rate buckley a better kick then voss?
Grimreepah
7 Jun 2006, 23:51
would u rate buckley a better kick then voss?
yes. Buckley is probably the best kick in the competition.
doppleganger
7 Jun 2006, 23:55
yes. Buckley is probably the best kick in the competition.
so the bloke can use the ball better then voss, and he gets the ball more then voss.......yet voss is the better player??
voss more decorated, better leader....not better player
Grimreepah
8 Jun 2006, 00:09
so the bloke can use the ball better then voss
I was afraid I would get misquoted. I said he was a better kick.
You're not taking into account handballs, hard ball gets, tackling, shepards, intimidation, team work, marking, courage, the ability to read the play, the ability to lift the team, the ability to play through injury, clean hands, insticts, determination, attack on the ball, or the ability to handle pressure.
doppleganger
8 Jun 2006, 00:24
[QUOTE=Grimreepah]I was afraid I would get misquoted. I said he was a better kick.[Quote]
You're not taking into account
handballs = voss
hard ball gets = voss although buckley led the league in 03
tackling = buckley lays more tackles
shepards = ??? who can stand still better??
intimidation = voss
team work = voss
marking = dead heat
courage = voss, although again cant really question bucks
the ability to read the play = buckley
the ability to lift the team = voss
the ability to play through injury = hard to judge, voss played more games over the career but has had the opportunity to play in more due to finals
clean hands = rarely see either player fumble
insticts = dont know how u determine football instincts, both have it in spades
determination = cant dispute either, that what makes them champions
attack on the ball = most people would say voss, although i dont know how buckley can be questioned
or the ability to handle pressure = buckley under much more pressure being in the leader of the biggest club in the land, performs brilliantly on the biggest stages, although voss cant be questioned either
think that is fair
would love it if Melbourn ebeat pies on monday which they will and Buckley tears his hammy AGAIN.
Bomberland06
8 Jun 2006, 00:46
hird is clearly way better than voss and buckley,he more likely to be selected in an team of the century side then voss or buckley!!!!!!!
Bomberland06
8 Jun 2006, 01:07
well surely they would be recognised for there part during the 90's, i was only saying at the start i reckon hird would make it in the team clearly for the fact he is the greatest player around today!!!
would love it if Melbourn ebeat pies on monday which they will and Buckley tears his hammy AGAIN.
You're a disgrace, please stop pretending to be a Bomber, seeing as you have jumped on the socceroos bandwagon, :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: off to the soccer forums. :mad:
Palmer Stoat
8 Jun 2006, 16:23
for mine, voss may JUST be shading jim, but had he not lost the best part of 4 years of his career, james would be by far simply the best
I can't believe an Essendon supporter is saying this. Hird is better than Voss. (And so is Buckley.)
davey_magik
8 Jun 2006, 21:50
Hird and Buckley > Voss.
Voss is a better leader, but I think on ability Buckley and Hird are ahead.
Overall career points
Captain material
Voss 5
Buckley 4
Hird 4
Possession status
Voss 4
Buckley 5
Hird 3
Ability to excite
Voss 4
Buckley 3
Hird 5
Ability to hurt opposition through possesion
Voss 5
Buckley 4
Hird 5
Respect from opposition players
Voss 5
Buckley 4
Hird 4
Overall
Voss 23
Buckley 20
Hird 21
Voss>>Hird>>Buckley
And everyone knows it.
Where is the great one when his team sits bottom of the ladder ?
jlc
Kings Army
9 Jun 2006, 00:35
Voss>>Hird>>Buckley
And everyone knows it.
Agree:thumbsu: Majority on non Essendon, Lions or Pies supporters would choose Voss then Hird and then Bucks.
Williams02
9 Jun 2006, 00:45
For anyone to say that bucks is better that voss and hird is terrible.... i am an essendon supporter and i would say that hird and voss for career are on a par if anything voss with his nose in front and buckley trailing a fair way behind
Kings Army
9 Jun 2006, 00:59
Buckley has had a far more productive (personally) career than the other two.
The others have had better cattle surrounding them, too.
Nothing to do with the cattle - Carey won us flags with out having the best cattle around him.
Nothing to do with the cattle - Carey won us flags with out having the best cattle around him.
Trying to use facts to convince zeke.........................Good Luck!!