View Full Version : No excuses- this is where we are at,,,
johnson_26
12 Jun 2006, 22:03
our first 22-25 good (top 8, maybe top 6 material).
Our list 25-30= RUBBISH.
Analysis:
Playing Performance today: 3/10
We kicked nearly a hundred points and didnt have a winner in the foward half (bar daks). Thats the three points, along with our two backs- clement and heath shaw= magnificent!
Also, the young kids- Pendlebury and especially thomo's last quater= sensational. Pendles was great for us today i thought, he relaly battled hard. Thomo was greta in that last quater- he stopepd it from becomming a blow out.
As for the rest, the midfield was poor, the work ethic non existant. Players don't go out there and not try- let us understand that. What we need to understand, was that this game was a great indicator at where our playing list is as a club.
Coaching Performance: 5/10
Not one of mick's finest couple of hours, but he has limited control over what happens on the field- he can only tell the players so much, it is their role to execute.
However, i found it amazingly hard to believe we gave them a spare half back flank consistently in the third and fourth quater when the dee's made their midfield rotations, giving them an extra man at the stoppage. That hurt. Also malthouse's slow reaction to not moving bucks further up the ground when the game was up for grabs, and selecting morrison in the side- rubbish.
Yet, he can only do so much. every coach has a bad day, mick's turn game, he is a marvellous mentor, we'll be right with him there.
Example was in the last quater, we had C3 ruck, Pendles centre, and iaccobucci as a rover. Realising we were out of the game, he was trying to benefit the kids in the long run, giving them maximum exposure at the highest level against a team red hot.
Our list really struggles, as proven today. A few of our upper tier go and we are left scrambling.
Players today who proved to me we are never going to be successful on the field as long as we have those types, and some who just proved to me they aren't ever going to be AFL standard are:
- Julian Rowe
- Shane O'Bree
- Travis Cloke* (let's give him time, but today baring last quater a couple of cheap kicks, he was fairly average).
- Chad Morrison (i was ridiculously lambasted for criticising the drafting of morrison at the start of the year- i was proved right)
Further, we have guys like brent hall, jason cloke, tristan walker, on our list. These guys are never going tot ake us to premiership glory- our list is very thin.
Further, we have guys like rocca, burns, buckley, wakelin etc who won't be at the club within the next 2-3 years. it's now or never for a flag tilt, and quite frankly we're not anywhere near that yet.
We lost one game- big deal. But, this game just proved we can't go and get ahead of ourselves. We were outclassed by a finals contender- not a premiership contender. Sides with lack of depth dont win flags- and we have a severe lack of depth. Some desperate decisions need to be made- i.e: stop drafting west coast rejects/ rejects in general, and start putting the acid on players to perform rather than give them a status where they are unshakeable in the line up.
I love our club, and when we are on we are hot, but today was a wake up call. DOnt expect too much guys, we just aren't good enough yet.
Lonie_from_50
12 Jun 2006, 22:10
I thought we had depth, obviously not...that is where we were at, today!
KissStephanie
12 Jun 2006, 22:12
I love our club, and when we are on we are hot, but today was a wake up call. DOnt expect too much guys, we just aren't good enough yet.You do not. Not in my opinion anyway. That is your opinion and my opinion is that you have too much time on your hands, and have looked at it from the view of a pessimist.
If you were an optimist that loved Collingwood, then maybe you could have seen an another angle to the loss as I have, but alas, you didn't. I'm sure that you'll be back on the bandwagon again after a couple of wins though. :rolleyes:
Any team is not going to be at their best when 5 forced changes are made in the space of a week. Any team is going to struggle the week after not being able to use the interchange bench the previous week. To expect all 5 inclusions to perform at once against a good side that were ready to play is asking too much.
The only thing that can be analysed out of today is nothing. Absolutely nothing. They didn't turn up to play and that is all there is to it. It happens to all teams at times, and even during a premiership season, a team has had an absolute shocker with nothing positive coming out of it.
Where we are at? We're 3rd. After 11 matches. A game clear of 4th.
Get your heads out of your arses, we're having and have had a brilliant year.
Idiots.
KissStephanie
12 Jun 2006, 22:27
Where we are at? We're 3rd. After 11 matches. A game clear of 4th.
Get your heads out of your arses, we're having and have had a brilliant year.
Idiots.I hope that that you were directing your post at the fair-weather supporter, 'Johnson_26' only, who is quick to bag my team after one bad loss. I have been optimistic and have not bagged the performance at all.
Instead of saying "idiots" you should have said "idiot," but if you were directing it at me too, then I hope that you will apologise. It was only the one person that was quick to unfairly bag after all.
johnson_26
12 Jun 2006, 22:35
if pessimistic is flat out realism escaping the la la land we pies supporters have surrounded ourselves in, then call me a pessimist.
Some of us have been living in a dream world- the posts we have put up all over big footy have been down right arrogant at some ways. If anything, im defending our actions and our loss. We just arent good enough.
And apparntly i dont love my club? Would i pay for a membership ticket as well as an mcc ticket, costing over 600 dollars worht of expenses, as well as being a social club member for ten years, yet still ahd to line up for 7 hours in a morning to get grand final seating in which we still ahd to sit in the bleachers of the great southern stand.
Don't talk to me about love buddy, i bleed for my club. But we have NO depth. Admit it,, really, we needed guys to come in and step up for some bad losses. Injuries arent an excuse- lack of depth is. Your side is only as good as your reserves, and they weren't good today. Simple as that.
if anything, im a realist. i have some logic behind reasoning on topics and the like.
I hope that that you were directing your post at the fair-weather supporter, 'Johnson_26' only, who is quick to bag my team after one bad loss. I have been optimistic and have not bagged the performance at all.
Instead of saying "idiots" you should have said "idiot," but if you were directing it at me too, then I hope that you will apologise. It was only the one person that was quick to unfairly bag after all.
I only read the first post so it certainly wasn't directed to you - more the people around the traps who have decided that suddenly we are no good again.
As I said johnno, we're sitting a game clear in 3rd position. If you can seriously still find something to sook about, then I feel very sorry for you.
We've had a brilliant, BRILLIANT first half of the season - enjoy the week off and put a smile on your face. :)
johnson_26
12 Jun 2006, 22:46
personally dids,, i'd rather win premierships than just make finals for the sake of making finals.
My assessment is based on premiership winning ability.
Clearly, you appreciate mediocrity, in the form: 'Yay we finished 3rd pat on the back lads'.
Great, 3rd, mad stuff. i'd rather finish last then go half way there and go missing,, but then again, i'm a winner.
Paddywackers
12 Jun 2006, 22:48
if pessimistic is flat out realism escaping the la la land we pies supporters have surrounded ourselves in, then call me a pessimist.
Some of us have been living in a dream world- the posts we have put up all over big footy have been down right arrogant at some ways. If anything, im defending our actions and our loss. We just arent good enough.
And apparntly i dont love my club? Would i pay for a membership ticket as well as an mcc ticket, costing over 600 dollars worht of expenses, as well as being a social club member for ten years, yet still ahd to line up for 7 hours in a morning to get grand final seating in which we still ahd to sit in the bleachers of the great southern stand.
Don't talk to me about love buddy, i bleed for my club. But we have NO depth. Admit it,, really, we needed guys to come in and step up for some bad losses. Injuries arent an excuse- lack of depth is. Your side is only as good as your reserves, and they weren't good today. Simple as that.
if anything, im a realist. i have some logic behind reasoning on topics and the like.
Your a pessimist, a realist would take other things into account, like the fact we had five forced exclusions and that some players had shockers all of whom we know are good footballers, ie Buckley, Rocca, Tarrant to name a few. Confident with Swan, Holland and Richards nack in, this will be reversed.
Not to mention Morrison dropped.
Please Malthouse, drop Morrison, Please?
Marklar_33
12 Jun 2006, 22:49
Its not all bad!
We will be back, the Telstra Stadium match usually suits us well, and we play that first 7 again (6-1?), so lets wait til September to judge how good the team is!
Paddywackers
12 Jun 2006, 22:50
personally dids,, i'd rather win premierships than just make finals for the sake of making finals.
My assessment is based on premiership winning ability.
Clearly, you appreciate mediocrity, in the form: 'Yay we finished 3rd pat on the back lads'.
Great, 3rd, mad stuff. i'd rather finish last then go half way there and go missing,, but then again, i'm a winner.
Buddy, Brisbane at their best lost from time to time. We still in the premiership race. But e won't win every game. This was one of them. Calm down buddy, We're still in a strong position.
KissStephanie
12 Jun 2006, 22:50
if anything, im a realist. i have some logic behind reasoning on topics and the like.Blah, blah, blah. Logic? You didn't even bother to read my post obviously and are just convinced that your opinion is the only one that counts!
You sound like one of the Collingwood baggers on the other boards earlier that were quick to put us down after one bad loss. It disgusts me that you are so quick to get stuck into my team after one bad loss. I expect it from the people that don't barrack for Collingwood, but you expected too much after a very tough week.
Since you don't appear to have read my last post, then here it is again...
"You do not. Not in my opinion anyway. That is your opinion and my opinion is that you have too much time on your hands, and have looked at it from the view of a pessimist.
If you were an optimist that loved Collingwood, then maybe you could have seen an another angle to the loss as I have, but alas, you didn't. I'm sure that you'll be back on the bandwagon again after a couple of wins though. :rolleyes:
Any team is not going to be at their best when 5 forced changes are made in the space of a week. Any team is going to struggle the week after not being able to use the interchange bench the previous week. To expect all 5 inclusions to perform at once against a good side that were ready to play is asking too much.
The only thing that can be analysed out of today is nothing. Absolutely nothing. They didn't turn up to play and that is all there is to it. It happens to all teams at times, and even during a premiership season, a team has had an absolute shocker with nothing positive coming out of it."
personally dids,, i'd rather win premierships than just make finals for the sake of making finals.
My assessment is based on premiership winning ability.
Clearly, you appreciate mediocrity, in the form: 'Yay we finished 3rd pat on the back lads'.
Great, 3rd, mad stuff. i'd rather finish last then go half way there and go missing,, but then again, i'm a winner.
Possibly the most hilarious post I've read on this site.
Well done. :thumbsu:
Coin_Toss
12 Jun 2006, 22:59
One loss and supporters start to take a pessimistic approach.
Pull your head in, johnson_26!
Agreed. While I expressed my disappointment in another thread and said thats what happens when consistency is interupted by injury. Though I had higher expectations for the players that came in today, we cant automatically assume that they are going to play as good as or better footy then those that they replaced. Iacca and Rowe for example, this has been their first game this year. Iacca has only played a couple of games in AFL and obviously Rowe hasn't had run for a while. therefore its takes acouple of games to adjust. Just like it took a game, rnd 1 vs Crows, for Collingwood to iron out the creases and click as a team, for players to get a feel of what they needed to do.
Cheer up. You win some you lose some and if you put this game in perspective, then really its not that important. We are 8-3 sitting at 3rd. Now who really thought at the beginning of the year that we would be there by June. I know I didn't but I was convinced we would improve.
Now people say, oh yes Collingwood hasnt beaten anyone a top 8 team blah blah blah. But really this doesnt concern me too much, though I expect to win games no matter how tough the opposition are percieved to be. As I have said before, its not who you play but how you play. Today Melbourne played quite well and we played poorly, thus we didnt win. We had a few players that had a bad day or weren't in the right spot. Come finals and we are in the 8 or top 4, who we have played in the season is really irrelevant as it is how we perform in those finals not who we play.
Big game next week in Sydney! Now that we have a wake up call so to speak, expect to see us come out hard and hopefully get us back in the winners circle.
P.S. As for Morrison. I hope he doesnt have another game unless he really really really really really earns it or we have no one else to choose.
KissStephanie
12 Jun 2006, 23:06
personally dids,, i'd rather win premierships than just make finals for the sake of making finals.
My assessment is based on premiership winning ability.
Clearly, you appreciate mediocrity, in the form: 'Yay we finished 3rd pat on the back lads'.
Great, 3rd, mad stuff. i'd rather finish last then go half way there and go missing,, but then again, i'm a winner.Oh for goodness sake. Absolute rubbish. You say "premiership winning ability," yet your original post says "6th-8th" at best. You are a prize ratbag.
Collingwood is capable of beating any team in the competition, and have showed that this season. Sydney showed last season that the premiership is wide open. You are definitely not a realist, but a pessimist. :thumbsd:
Last season, Melbourne beat Collingwood in Round 12 by 45 points, and were 9-3, and second on the ladder. They followed this up with 7 straight losses that included margins of 87, 74, 62, and 54 points. My point is that good days can change quick, and bad days can change quick too.
We were comprehensively beaten today, in almost every position and facet of the game. We did have five changes to the side through injury, but what I believe was most disappointing was our willingness to be second to the ball, soft at the contest and our complete lack of opponent accountability. The dees were tougher, used the ball better and were a class above us today.
Apart from Jimmy Clement, Dids, Presti, Fraser and Shaw, no one else really showed anything. Thomas gave us something and pendles got plenty of the ball, but we really needed Rowe, yakka, T3 to put their hands up and say 'i want to be in this side'. Don't think they did tha today.
Some of malthouses moves or lack of them also cost us. Why Jared Rivers was allowed to play loose across half back for four quarters is beyond me, Cam Bruce and Travis Johnstone slaughtered us, why not put someone on them and shut them down and why was Buckley left at full forward for so long, when he wasn't getting a kick and our on ballers were getting thrashed at the centre square take aways. Daniher certainly out coached Mick today.
It's our second loss for the season, a match to forget about quickly!
I'm confident we can bounce back, provided we get back to the style of footy we are good at, tough, accountable, hard running football. Will be interesting at the selection table with players returning from injury. Morrison HAS TO GO, while Lonie, O'Bree, Rowe, Yakka would have to have some question marks after their performances today.
socrates
12 Jun 2006, 23:15
Where we are at? We're 3rd. After 11 matches. A game clear of 4th.
Get your heads out of your arses, we're having and have had a brilliant year.
Idiots.
Ur right in that we r having a great year. Who would of thought we could possibly be 8-3. Pretty amazing effort.
However, today was a wake up call and a slap in the face to all of those people who thought we were the real deal for a flag. Injuries hurt us badly and our lack of depth was illustrated right to the bone. It saddens me to say that if we are to keep up our great form, ALL of our starting 22 must be fit and firing.
Premiership teams need to be lucky but not that lucky.
On the brighter side i'm loving the way dids is developing into a star of the league. How sick would have we felt to see him running our in a port jumper.
Go pies and lets put in a real effort against the swans.
oh yeah and morrison must be dropped and locked out of the lexus center for good.
Ferga18
12 Jun 2006, 23:17
SICK OF PEOPLE SAYING CRAP ON HERE ABOUT WE ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I AM HAPPY SITTING THIRD ON THE LADDER WITH A PERCENTAGE OF 131%.
WE WILL REBOUND. THATS WAT GOOD TEAMS DO, WE REBOUNDED WELL AFTER TH WEST COAST LOSS. BY FLOGGING GEELONG BY 102 POINTS. wE WILL BE ALRIGHT.
For those fans who choose to stick by us and not bag us, i love u guys. Thats what true supporters do. :)
magpies42
12 Jun 2006, 23:17
I think we have potential depth but as a young side that is rebuilding we have to wait on it! yakka will come good and so will t.cloke
johno_26 what on earth are you on about when you say obree wont be afl material?! He consistantly wins the ball for us, tackles and works hard! is having a great season despite his obvious short-cummins! The good far out-weighs the good man gazza had him in his victorian state of origin side for the year!
Nebula1971
12 Jun 2006, 23:27
Guys, lets just all settle down a little...
Clearly we were out played & out classed today
Whether one is a pessimist or optimist is irrelevant. Today we were exposed & someone expressing their disappointment shouldn’t be attacked.
I am p.i.s.s.e.d at the severity of the loss but I also acknowledge that we have performed brilliantly up until today & have complete faith that we will bounce back. This loss will resurrect our hunger. Sydney better be on their game is all I can say...
Let's stop bagging one another & remember, side by side we stick together…
KissStephanie
12 Jun 2006, 23:31
ALL of our starting 22 must be fit and firing.
Premiership teams need to be lucky but not that lucky.Some of the pessimistic like you just fail to see the big picture. If you can't see that expecting all five inclusions to perform well at the same time, along with a second gamer in Pendlebury, against a good opposition is being unrealistic.
I feel that Collingwood can be good without the best 22 playing, but five forced changes in one week is too much, particularly the week after the players weren't able to use the interchange bench. Some people just don't understand the high demand of footy.
The players didn't get a chance to sit down last week, and it showed today. To add five inclusions, and then to expect them to all of a sudden perform simultaneously is ridiculous. If Collingwood had lost one player per week over five weeks, instead of five players at one time, then the depth can truly be judged.
Forget today because Brisbane beat us up physically last week, and we weren't able to get it together in time, and that is the reason that they didn't turn up today.Today we were exposedOh my goodness, it just won't end will it? :rolleyes: We weren't bloody exposed! Today was just a day to forget.
johnson_26
12 Jun 2006, 23:32
thank you- scorates...
Stephanie,, get a grip love, i think you need some glasses, because you've missed some of the statments i made,, liiiiiiiike:
our best 22-25= Very good, our 25-30- not so good= RUBBISH.
somethig along those lines.
Really, Steph, did you have us posted up for 3rd spot come this time of the year in your season preview for the pies. Possibly, we are over achieveing? i don't think so, we are playing good footy, BUT TODAY, AS I HAVE SAID CONSTANTLY, was an indication of where OUR PLAYING LIST IS AT. Really, it was only one game- but you don't lose games like that.
As socrates- the great theolgian said- our best 22 is good, and we are going to heavily rely on having that 22 in the side come september.
Thats the foundation of my argument
However, as proven in 2003, if you cant recover from 2-5 losses in injury in your list, then your not fair dinkum, a.k.a anthony rocca=> 2003.
St Kilda managed to beat sydney and the like with:
Kosi, Hayes, Ball,,,- players that would slot into our best 5.
We were beaten by Melbourne with
Swan, Caracella, Maxwell, Holland, Wakelin and Richards out.
Yes, some names there, but our list should be able to recover from the likes of caracella and swan. our half backs didnt fire a shot today bar clement (back pocket really) and heath shaw (yes, again, back pocket really).
FURTHER another inidcation of our playing list, is guys like jason cloke and walker, who have been on the list for 5+ years, couldn't crack into a side making 5 changes this week, yet both played in the 2003 grand final. An inidcation of our 'senior' reserves not being able to cut the mustard at the level.
As proven, our best 22= very good. But where do we go from there?
Great year so far, go pies, keep it going. But, we won't win a flag with the cattle we got on the paddock atm- eg: MORRISON (how many morrison's do adelaide and west coast have playing for them- the REAL contenders, again, the foundation of my agrument), O'bree etc, and im just confronting you with the facts of life.
KissStephanie
13 Jun 2006, 00:03
As socrates- the great theolgian said- our best 22 is good, and we are going to heavily rely on having that 22 in the side come september.But I don't agree with him, or you. I'm convinced that you don't understand footy though.
Do you realise that Collingwood were not able to interchange any players from the five minute mark of the second quarter last week? Have you any idea the effects of that? Do you realise that a couple of percent drop is the difference between being very good and very ordinary? Do you understand that it is unrealistic to expect five inclusions to all perform well at the same time compared to them being gradually brought into the team?
You feel that this side can finish 6th-8th at best, while I think that it can win the premiership, so we simply disagree. Things need to go well of course, but I can only see one match in the second half of the season that I don't expect to win at this stage, and that is Adelaide at Footy Park. There are many cases like Carlton in 1995 when they lost two matches back-to-back by 10 goals mid-season, but they won the flag.
You're reading far, far, far too much into this loss without looking enough at some of the causes leading up to it. As for St.Kilda winning on the weekend without some of their players in. Ridiculous example! They have been losing and were desperate to win, and not the slightest bit comparable.
I have no idea at why you keep bagging O'Bree, and those teams do have 'Morrison's' playing for them. Sydney had a few last season and they were premiers! They just showed that a champion team can beat a team of champions as West Coast looked much better on paper.
You aren't confronting me with the facts of life at all, you're simply giving your pessimistic view, without looking at all of the facts.
socrates
13 Jun 2006, 00:58
Do u not understand that it's not being pessimistic at all. Reality should tell u that a team cannot win a flag with morrison in the team. The injuries did all come in one game, but still the players missing were by no means key players. Imagine loosing 2 key talls.
No one is jumping off the bandwagon, i'm still bloody proud of the teams performance this year regardless if we don't win another game. Today was an off day where the ball just wasnt bouncing our way. They played above themselves and we were 10% off... thats life.
I know we can't expect penders and the young fellas to carry such a load by themsleves, but that's precisely the point. WE DON'T have enough depth to cover injuries without relying on youngsters!!!
NOT BEING PESSIMISTIC! I still think we can beat sydney and play a significant part in the finals without going all the way.
KissStephanie
13 Jun 2006, 02:15
Do u not understand that it's not being pessimistic at all. WE DON'T have enough depth to cover injuries without relying on youngsters!!!Can someone that actually has a brain please respond to me. Not one person has mentioned the points that I have made, and instead I just get repetitive rubbish like this post above. :rolleyes:
Yeah Im with steph on this, we have alot of young players who are yet to fully show their potential or given the time too. Iacca, Trav, Rowe, Pendles, Thomas are good players. But you cant expect them to come in and just automatically fill in spots of players that have been playing in the side for a month or saw, who found some brilliant form and have been some of our bogs or solid preformers. We have depth, but a few of the players are young or have been out of the system for a while, thus they are not going to automtically set the world on fire.
Secondly, 5 changes in one week, and i think around 4 the week before, tends to disrupt a teams consistency and glue, especially if you have players coming in playing their first games of the year or for couple of weeks or so. Not to mention the fact that we couldn't really interchange our players as we have in done so well this year in the Brisbane game.
With that all said, Im estatic where we are on the ladder, I think you tend to forget we are 3rd on the Ladder, 8-3. I bet none of you would have dreamt of that at the beginning of the year!!! I know i sure didnt. I am enjoying this year a hell of alot better the 2005, where I think we really were "exposed" if you want to use a broad term as that. We have not been exposed, we were beaten by a team that wanted to win and play. Obviously we didnt. Our 3rd Loss..... no need to worry yet. If we lose the next 2 in a row then by all means you can worry. We have the break coming up, we expect players coming back and I expect the team to have woken up back to reality and be really hungry for a win. Cheer up fellas, and try and look on the bright side of things.
Cangaru
13 Jun 2006, 09:33
Well I think its already been mentioned and I only heard the game on radio on the Net in far away Mexico, to me we didn't get the ball at all Melbourne controlled it the whole game except maybe the last 10 mins!!!! Also where Buckley played was silly he was forward never went to the midfield then he was back hmmmm!!! Then on the bench what was the story there injured(I heard it was a punishment but a bit strange would be better either dragging or dropped the next week hmmm)???? Also from the description we never once kicked to Tarrant on a lead or Rocca or if we did it was a pack contest with like 2 or 3 guarding hmmm what happened to the crumbers?? I think also as Stephanie I think it was we lost 5 players bang in one go 4 from last week then Wakelin!! Which I think is really bad to get a game going as they need to learn the system of playing together etc which in one didn't work.. but anyway just my thoughts what do I know from being in faraway Mexico.. Will be interested to hear Micks Press conference on reasons etc....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UGHHH!!! I think against Syd will be hard but not impossilbe we need a 100% turn around. Back in Melbourne at the G we should start over at least with 3 of the 5 back!!!
Canga!!!!
goalpie
13 Jun 2006, 10:06
Only reason we lost was because senior players went missing. Time will tell if we are good enougth to beat the top sides.
the lemon wedge
13 Jun 2006, 13:01
Licuria was named in the best what a joke, worst disposal i have eva seen and doesnt look where he kicks it whats the use in getting the ball 25 times and turning it over more than half the time.
MACDAICOS
13 Jun 2006, 13:20
Firstly Melbourne desrved there win and played the harder more skillful football and look the goods after a ordinary start to the year.........
As for Collingwood we had a shocker plain and simple our 2 previous losses this year have been what you can call fighting efforts but yesterday was a disaster from start to finish.......Senoir players didnt step up and a few of the kids where found wanting..........Bur c'mon lets not push the panic button for God's sake......Where half way there 8 and 3 with a percentage of 130+, A week off will do us the world of good and am confident of getting a result up in Sydney in 2 weeks......It's not the end of the world guys, we all know the brand of football we can play.......And please just ignore the lifeless trolls on here and other places calling us every name under the sun, there time will come as will the drunken scumbags standing in M10 yesterday in the Great Southern Stand hurling racial abuse at Leon then hugging each other with Davey and Pickett baged there goals..........Oh well sums Dee supporters up in One............Well played though :thumbsu:
doppleganger
13 Jun 2006, 13:24
personally dids,, i'd rather win premierships than just make finals for the sake of making finals.
My assessment is based on premiership winning ability.
Clearly, you appreciate mediocrity, in the form: 'Yay we finished 3rd pat on the back lads'.
Great, 3rd, mad stuff. i'd rather finish last then go half way there and go missing,, but then again, i'm a winner.
what would u have been saying after the absolute spanking that hawthorn gave our 1990 premiership team in rnd20 of that year?? they also lost both games during the h&a season to essendon
all the h&a season is about is getting urself in the best position u can to challenge for a flag, so far the pies are the best performed victorian team, we are still a game and plenty of percentage ahead of 4th place
it wasn't the depth players fault yesterday, it was the senior players who all had dirty days, buckley, rocca, tarrant, o'bree, fraser, licuria, b.johnson were all poor.......very confident these blokes can turn it around very quickly
who cares if the pies have a down patch in the middle of the season, hopefully they will all be up again when it counts
The Marvel
13 Jun 2006, 13:38
We couldnt action our game plan & didnt follow directions. The last month has caught up with afew & the break will do us more good. This was our worst game so far. We wont repeat that effort. We will get our revenge in the finals when it really counts.
MACDAICOS
13 Jun 2006, 13:48
We couldnt action our game plan & didnt follow directions. The last month has caught up with afew & the break will do us more good. This was our worst game so far. We wont repeat that effort. We will get our revenge in the finals when it really counts.
3 of out worst 5 on the ground where Rocca, Tarrant and Buckley......When has that ever happened???? When will it happen again????????
ICanDressMyself
13 Jun 2006, 14:13
I hope that that you were directing your post at the fair-weather supporter, 'Johnson_26' only, who is quick to bag my team after one bad loss. I have been optimistic and have not bagged the performance at all.
Instead of saying "idiots" you should have said "idiot," but if you were directing it at me too, then I hope that you will apologise. It was only the one person that was quick to unfairly bag after all.
How is Johnson_26 a fairweather supporter? IMO by the way he's been speaking he loves the Pies more than anyone else here.
Also, some of your points I've read are either invalid or incorrect.
I think living in the ignorant country of America has gone to your head.
our first 22-25 good (top 8, maybe top 6 material).
Our list 25-30= RUBBISH.
Analysis:
Playing Performance today: 3/10
We kicked nearly a hundred points and didnt have a winner in the foward half (bar daks). Thats the three points, along with our two backs- clement and heath shaw= magnificent!
Also, the young kids- Pendlebury and especially thomo's last quater= sensational. Pendles was great for us today i thought, he relaly battled hard. Thomo was greta in that last quater- he stopepd it from becomming a blow out.
As for the rest, the midfield was poor, the work ethic non existant. Players don't go out there and not try- let us understand that. What we need to understand, was that this game was a great indicator at where our playing list is as a club.
Coaching Performance: 5/10
Not one of mick's finest couple of hours, but he has limited control over what happens on the field- he can only tell the players so much, it is their role to execute.
However, i found it amazingly hard to believe we gave them a spare half back flank consistently in the third and fourth quater when the dee's made their midfield rotations, giving them an extra man at the stoppage. That hurt. Also malthouse's slow reaction to not moving bucks further up the ground when the game was up for grabs, and selecting morrison in the side- rubbish.
Yet, he can only do so much. every coach has a bad day, mick's turn game, he is a marvellous mentor, we'll be right with him there.
Example was in the last quater, we had C3 ruck, Pendles centre, and iaccobucci as a rover. Realising we were out of the game, he was trying to benefit the kids in the long run, giving them maximum exposure at the highest level against a team red hot.
Our list really struggles, as proven today. A few of our upper tier go and we are left scrambling.
Players today who proved to me we are never going to be successful on the field as long as we have those types, and some who just proved to me they aren't ever going to be AFL standard are:
- Julian Rowe
- Shane O'Bree
- Travis Cloke* (let's give him time, but today baring last quater a couple of cheap kicks, he was fairly average).
- Chad Morrison (i was ridiculously lambasted for criticising the drafting of morrison at the start of the year- i was proved right)
Further, we have guys like brent hall, jason cloke, tristan walker, on our list. These guys are never going tot ake us to premiership glory- our list is very thin.
Further, we have guys like rocca, burns, buckley, wakelin etc who won't be at the club within the next 2-3 years. it's now or never for a flag tilt, and quite frankly we're not anywhere near that yet.
We lost one game- big deal. But, this game just proved we can't go and get ahead of ourselves. We were outclassed by a finals contender- not a premiership contender. Sides with lack of depth dont win flags- and we have a severe lack of depth. Some desperate decisions need to be made- i.e: stop drafting west coast rejects/ rejects in general, and start putting the acid on players to perform rather than give them a status where they are unshakeable in the line up.
I love our club, and when we are on we are hot, but today was a wake up call. DOnt expect too much guys, we just aren't good enough yet.
Oh no, the sky is falling (again).
8 wins 3 loses.
If you were offered that before round one you would have taken it and said thank you very much
Higgs Boson
13 Jun 2006, 14:39
Collingwood were soundly beaten yesterday, no doubt about it, but they have been a very good team all year and will be back. At the start of the year you would have been laughed at if you'd said Collingwood would be 8-3. Yet here you guys are; you've obviously been doing something right.
I also want to say that I have been most impressed with the vast majority of Pies supporters in the wake of the loss -- on the whole, very reasonable and considered, and able to give credit where it's due. And often in stark contrast to some of the d*ckhead Dees supporters (every club has 'em) who just want to stupidly pay out just because they can.
:thumbsu:
Collingwood were soundly beaten yesterday, no doubt about it, but they have been a very good team all year and will be back. At the start of the year you would have been laughed at if you'd said Collingwood would be 8-3. Yet here you guys are; you've obviously been doing something right.
I also want to say that I have been most impressed with the vast majority of Pies supporters in the wake of the loss -- on the whole, very reasonable and considered, and able to give credit where it's due. And often in stark contrast to some of the d*ckhead Dees supporters (every club has 'em) who just want to stupidly pay out just because they can.
:thumbsu:
Well said Higgs.
Dees far to good on the day. We were soundly beaten.
Looking forward to the re-match in the finals, the G will be jumping.
It seems some people always just look at the half full cup and accept whatever comes along. Agree or disagree with johno but he always give his opinion and tries to back it up. As a rule he is very optimistic. The sky may not be falling but we are supposed to be here to win premierships not be also rans yet again. Doesn’t anyone think we have obvious deficiencies that we have failed to remedy for a long time? Or are we just going to quote the injury toll as a permanent excuse for not being good enough?
Disappointing game. Too many soapy re reruns for my liking. You learn more from a loss than a win. This matched exposed:
Malthouse’s tactical inflexibility and lack of imagination;
our ruck deficiency, and;
our lack of depth and class in the midfield.
All old news.
Melbourne on the other hand have addressed their issues and recruited harder midfielders because they were butter soft.
I thought we had depth, obviously not...that is where we were at, today!If we had depth we wouldn’t have been 1- 6 or thereabouts in 2004 and 2005. 2005 was not ruined by 20 injuries. It was ruined LONG before the count was that high.
MACDAICOS
13 Jun 2006, 15:03
Collingwood were soundly beaten yesterday, no doubt about it, but they have been a very good team all year and will be back. At the start of the year you would have been laughed at if you'd said Collingwood would be 8-3. Yet here you guys are; you've obviously been doing something right.
I also want to say that I have been most impressed with the vast majority of Pies supporters in the wake of the loss -- on the whole, very reasonable and considered, and able to give credit where it's due. And often in stark contrast to some of the d*ckhead Dees supporters (every club has 'em) who just want to stupidly pay out just because they can.
:thumbsu:
At last a decent post by a Dee.......
Respect.
It seems some people always just look at the half full cup and accept whatever comes along. Agree or disagree with johno but he always give his opinion and tries to back it up. As a rule he is very optimistic. The sky may not be falling but we are supposed to be here to win premierships not be also rans yet again. Doesn’t anyone think we have obvious deficiencies that we have failed to remedy for a long time? Or are we just going to quote the injury toll as a permanent excuse for not being good enough?
So I can take it Mark, you can show me threads from this year where you raised these deficiencies when we were winning.
I can't recall any.
Why do you assume this loss automatically excludes us from winning a premiership?
If injuries are not a valid reason for a loss, how come we are so much better than last year when we had massive injuries? Do you think the "4 point fairy" visited us over the summer?
It seems some people always just look at the half full cup and accept whatever comes along. Agree or disagree with johno but he always give his opinion and tries to back it up. As a rule he is very optimistic. The sky may not be falling but we are supposed to be here to win premierships not be also rans yet again. Doesn’t anyone think we have obvious deficiencies that we have failed to remedy for a long time? Or are we just going to quote the injury toll as a permanent excuse for not being good enough?
1. Quality back up ruckman for Josh Fraser
2. Quick midfielders that are skillful (i.e can hit targets ALL the time) Swan has really stepped up this year and Davis has been good in patches when thrown in the middle.
3. Quality inside players to replace Burns and buckley (i.e players that can get the hard contested footy). Having Lonie in centre square is just taking the ****
4. A player that physically imposses himself on a match and puts the fear of god into the opposition (Rocca does to some extent, but we don't have a J. Brown, Pickett, Josh Carr, Carey like player on the field).
Thats where we are lacking IMO. If we play the footy like we have in the first 11 rounds, there is no reason why can't challenge the top teams in September. We know what finals footy about and know what it takes to win them.
So I can take it Mark, you can show me threads from this year where you raised these deficiencies when we were winning.
I can't recall any.They are the same deficiencies I’ve raised for years Murray. As I said you learn more from a loss than a win but I have raised these issues many times. In fact I have raised the ruck on numerous occasions win lose or draw. Obviously MM doesn’t get out coached when we win but take a look at the stats. We DON”T win a high percentage of our games overall. Why do you assume this loss automatically excludes us from winning a premiership? I don’t. It is indicative that we are a way off yet. Taken from 2005 we have made great strides. That is irrelevant though. Taken from 2002/3 we have not. If injuries are not a valid reason for a loss, how come we are so much better than last year when we had massive injurie? Do you think the "4 point fairy" visited us over the summer?Injuries ARE a valid reason. They are also an excuse and in our case have been used to excuse too much. On the weekend they are absolutely no excuse. None whatsoever.
PS our 2005 season was well and truly over before we have this massive injury count, as was 2004.
KissStephanie
14 Jun 2006, 08:31
Yeah Im with steph on this, we have alot of young players who are yet to fully show their potential or given the time too. Iacca, Trav, Rowe, Pendles, Thomas are good players. But you cant expect them to come in and just automatically fill in spots of players that have been playing in the side for a month or saw, who found some brilliant form and have been some of our bogs or solid preformers. We have depth, but a few of the players are young or have been out of the system for a while, thus they are not going to automtically set the world on fire.
Secondly, 5 changes in one week, and i think around 4 the week before, tends to disrupt a teams consistency and glue, especially if you have players coming in playing their first games of the year or for couple of weeks or so. Not to mention the fact that we couldn't really interchange our players as we have in done so well this year in the Brisbane game. Finally someone that can see the logic in what I was saying! :)
My point has always simply been that Monday was a bad day to be learnt from and then forgotten, and if ever there was going to be a bad day, it was the week after copping a very physical match. Melbourne were good and they were far more ready to play, but they tend to struggle toward the end of seasons, and I wouldn't mind playing them again then.Only reason we lost was because senior players went missing.And that goes back to my point that the previous week against Brisbane there was not any rotation, and none of the players could have a rest on the bench. They were buggared before the match began on Monday.
All it takes is a couple of percent to make the difference between very good and very bad. You add that five forced changes were made with players that weren't used to team structure. Melbourne were ready to play, and Collingwood were not.How is Johnson_26 a fairweather supporter? IMO by the way he's been speaking he loves the Pies more than anyone else here.
Also, some of your points I've read are either invalid or incorrect.
I think living in the ignorant country of America has gone to your head.But the thing is that you're dopey, and you haven't even given the reasons that that you find my points invalid and incorrect, because you can't! You're a typical Collingwood-bashing troll that refuses to see truth and logic because you would rather payout on Collingwood supporters that support the club, and choose to instead side with the ones that don't.
You're not excatly very original, intelligent, reasonable, or knowledgeable, and that was clear from the first post of yours that I read. You refused to see that not being able to use the interchange bench for three quarters against Brisbane was worth 5-6 goals, and you admitted that you don't even know all of the players.
I'm positive that Mummy dresses you still, and that you can't do it yourself, and when she does it, she puts you in a baggy blue, gold and red suit and big red shoes to match your big red nose you clown.It seems some people always just look at the half full cup and accept whatever comes along. Agree or disagree with johno but he always give his opinion and tries to back it up. As a rule he is very optimistic.Optimistic? Ba ha ha ha ha ha! This matched exposed:
Malthouse’s tactical inflexibility and lack of imagination;
our ruck deficiency, and;
our lack of depth and class in the midfield.
All old news.
Melbourne on the other hand have addressed their issues and recruited harder midfielders because they were butter soft.
If we had depth we wouldn’t have been 1- 6 or thereabouts in 2004 and 2005. 2005 was not ruined by 20 injuries. It was ruined LONG before the count was that high.And you seem about as 'optomistic' as Johnno 26! You certainly don't know too much about footy do you? Certainly not enough to think laterally anyway.
I tend to believe that my explanation is more accurate to the loss than yours, and simply just a day to forget. As for your comparison with 2004/2005, I definitely don't agree.
In 2002-03, Collingwood had the youngest playing list, and what is well known about young players? They have trouble seeing out the entire season. Collingwood played more footy in those two seasons than any other team because they played in two Grand Finals, and one Practice Match Cup final.
This extra footy in two seasons, shortened the pre-season training, so Collingwood were behind the other clubs before the season started, and it was felt in the last two years. It is very, very difficult to remain at the top these days after two long seasons as 2002-03.
Collingwood finally had an opportunity to have a good pre-season this year, and the performances have improved along with it. It's fine to have your opinion about the depth, but to be fair, you have to look at all of the reasons that led to a disappointing 2004-05, and you haven't.
What has Melbourne addressed this year? After Round 12 of 2005 they didn't look too soft and were 9-3, but then they lost seven straight including margins of 87, 74, 62 and 54 points. This year they are 7-4 after Round 11, so time will tell with them.
Fair dinkum some Collingwood supporters are simply pessimistic Collingwood bashers like Mark T and Johnno 26. :rolleyes: It embarrasses me. Malthouse made reference to the supporters that are like that a few weeks ago.
No you are right KissStephanie. Unless you can’t see fault or find ways to improve you are a dill. Obviously that’s me. It’s pointless trying to work out why you lose. It was pointless in 2002 and did us no harm in 2003. Anyway, we love losing grand finals and not doing anything about it. It’s as traditional as the black and white stipes. We will win the flag this year, won't we? If not we'll win it next year though?
doppleganger
14 Jun 2006, 11:36
No you are right KissStephanie. Unless you can’t see fault or find ways to improve you are a dill. Obviously that’s me. It’s pointless trying to work out why you lose. It was pointless in 2002 and did us no harm in 2003. Anyway, we love losing grand finals and not doing anything about it. It’s as traditional as the black and white stipes. We will win the flag this year, won't we? If not we'll win it next year though?
every team has flaws MarkT
adeladie, lack a real power forward
west coast, lack a forward of any note
sydney, a big KP defender
st.kilda, ruckman
pies, ruckman
melbourne, would have said lacking in recognised defenders but if holland & carrol can keep doing the job they look pretty strong all over the park
the pies have invested a lot in guy richards as being our answer as a ruckman, also gave up a lot to get mckee which didn't work, so its not as if they dont acknowledge the ruck as being a sore point
but as u know u cant go out and buy a gun ruck anymore
melbourne were lucky to have picks 2&5 a couple of years ago in which they landed a couple of gun midfielders, similar to us this year....will take a few years to come on
but based on form this year the pies on their day can match it with most teams, so if they make it to the finals they would be as much chance as any as there is no powerhouse team like brisbane in 02-03
one loss to a good team doesn't mean we all should give up hope i swhat plenty of people are saying, losing to melbourne might be a good thing for the club in that it makes the players know they too can be blown away if not 100% switched on
every team has flaws MarkT Generally that is true. Brisbane were an exception but if you can pay more you can be an exception. My issue is not so much that we have flaws but that we have a couple of very obvious ones and they have been longstanding and unaddressed, at least with any degree of adequacy. That all comes back to the coach IMO. He’s been there over 6 years. It’s his list. adeladie, lack a real power forward They have made improvement and all in all kick a lot of goals while letting few through. I’m sure they’d like a Rocca. Craig hasn’t been in charge 6+ years either.west coast, lack a forward of any note sydney, a big KP defender [/QUOTE]Winners are grinners. They won the flag. They are a pretty decent chance again. st.kilda, ruckman All GT’s issue. He let one go for salary cap reasons and traded Everitt. It’s a flaw that has and will cost them dearly. I don’t hear anyone bar Saints fans calling GT a good coach though. melbourne, would have said lacking in recognised defenders but if holland & carrol can keep doing the job they look pretty strong all over the park Not quite there but a decently structured list. the pies have invested a lot in guy richards as being our answer as a ruckman, also gave up a lot to get mckee which didn't work, so its not as if they dont acknowledge the ruck as being a sore point
but as u know u cant go out and buy a gun ruck anymore Yes you can. but based on form this year the pies on their day can match it with most teams, so if they make it to the finals they would be as much chance as any as there is no powerhouse team like brisbane in 02-03 This is the whole point though. There are flags for the taking and if you don’t give yourself the best chance then you have failed. I am sick and tired of Collingwood falling just short and accepting that. one loss to a good team doesn't mean we all should give up hope i swhat plenty of people are saying, losing to melbourne might be a good thing for the club in that it makes the players know they too can be blown away if not 100% switched onNo it doesn’t. 3 losses to 3 good teams is cause for concern though. In our particular circumstances it is yet more cause to question.
doppleganger
14 Jun 2006, 11:59
how many gun ruckman are playing ATM??
but more importantly who would be available??
even more importantly what would we have to offer that would enable us to get them??
yes it has been a concern, but we did use our number 1 pick on getting the best ruck going around in josh, unfortunately he hasn't really filled out into a big body and so is more of a follower, similar situation with guy richards. These two should be developing into gun rucks by now, josh great around the ground, but weak in genuine ruck contests.........but could u predict that when he was drafted??
also the now infamous mckee trade was a measure of attempting to fix the ruck situation, but rule changes ended the almighty stunner, but they were trying to fix the problem......haven't nailed it yet tho
So johnson_26, I've just read that this has been our best start (11 matches) since 1981.
1981.
That's 25 years.
Which is a quarter of a century.
Still sooking? :rolleyes:
how many gun ruckman are playing ATM?? A few but there are not a lot. Cox, Everitt, White. Might be one or two more. I’d settle for good though. but more importantly who would be available?? Over the last 6 years? even more importantly what would we have to offer that would enable us to get them?? A fair bit obviously. yes it has been a concern, but we did use our number 1 pick on getting the best ruck going around in josh, Was he a ruckman? He certainly doesn’t win in then ruck at AFL level. That’s not really the point. Wed drafted him and had no mature age/bodied ruckman so we played him for 21 out of 22 games in the ruck in year 1. Then we trade a pried early pick for McKee who from day plainly wasn’t very good at anything. The fact we tried isn’t the issue. The fact we failed is. These two should be developing into gun rucks by now, josh great around the ground, but weak in genuine ruck contests.........but could u predict that when he was drafted?? People who are paid to watch juniors judge these things. My problem is not with drafting Josh though. He is a quality player. also the now infamous mckee trade was a measure of attempting to fix the ruck situation, but rule changes ended the almighty stunner, No they didn’t. Pure ability deficiencies ended his career. The year before the rule changes he was the mule who at best broke even and that wasn’t particularly common. Our very good clearance midfield won many a contest from opposition rucks. McKee one trick was to ensure the contest was at the foot of the ruckman rather than out in the open. That was the one clear difference in the 2 grand finals. The problem with the McKee deal is that it cost us Pavlich. We knew it would cost us either Pavlich or Haselby. We knew how highly those 2 were regarded. We wanted to save Josh from the ruck. We had the right idea but it was executed by incompetents. Yes it is easy with hindsight but people get paid a lot of money to make these calls and if they get it wrong they should be accountable. That trade is probably the most disasterous trade we have ever made. It cost us at least 1 premiership and who know what else. Imagine a decent ruckman (say Everitt) and Pavlich in 2002/3 or now.
understudy
14 Jun 2006, 15:19
I've just read that this has been our best start (11 matches) since 1981.
Interesting, hopefully we can go on with it from here. :thumbsu:
Interesting, hopefully we can go on with it from here. :thumbsu:
Nah I wouldn't get your hopes up, we're clearly not good enough.
...or something.
ICanDressMyself
14 Jun 2006, 15:35
But the thing is that you're dopey, and you haven't even given the reasons that that you find my points invalid and incorrect, because you can't! You're a typical Collingwood-bashing troll that refuses to see truth and logic because you would rather payout on Collingwood supporters that support the club, and choose to instead side with the ones that don't.
You're not excatly very original, intelligent, reasonable, or knowledgeable, and that was clear from the first post of yours that I read. You refused to see that not being able to use the interchange bench for three quarters against Brisbane was worth 5-6 goals, and you admitted that you don't even know all of the players.
How am I a Collingwood bashing troll? All I've done is say that Johnson_26's comments were valid and he elaborated on his opinions. Maybe if you weren't so bias you could also see that his comments were suitable.
How do you know I'm not "excatly" original, intelligent, reasonable or knowledgable? You don't know me so STFU.
You had three players out not four, so although you didn't have maximum use of a full bench, you still had some use and not absolute zero use for three quarters like you said. Collingwood had 3 players injured and I realise that would have a detrimental effect but you can't put a number of goals on that. There's absolutely no guarentee that those three Collingwood players would have produced 5-6 unanswered goals for their team - (I might just add that you said it was worth 7 goals until I had a go at you, now you've put it down to 5-6 goals :rolleyes: which is still too high) You won by 4 goals, but in your eyes you won by 10 goals which is completely ridiculous. Also, I said Who?? about Richards because he is unknown and not rated outside Collingwood. Sarcasm Stephanie. ;)
KissStephanie
14 Jun 2006, 19:04
How am I a Collingwood bashing troll? All I've done is say that Johnson_26's comments were valid and he elaborated on his opinions. Maybe if you weren't so bias you could also see that his comments were suitable.You are a troll because you spend your time trolling through Collingwood related threads, yet you barrack for the Crows. You agree with Johnson_26 because he has turned on his team after one loss and predicted that Collingwood will finish 6th-8th at best, so in other words, he feels that Collingwood will lose 6-7 of the last 11 matches. Whether that be right or not, it's a big statement after one poor performance this season.How do you know I'm not "excatly" original, intelligent, reasonable or knowledgable? You don't know me so STFU.Because I can read that you're not original, intelligent, reasonable, or knowledgeable. By the way, I've just reported you for swearing and abuse, as those four letters that you used is considered language that is not permitted on BF.You had three players out not four, so although you didn't have maximum use of a full bench, you still had some use and not absolute zero use for three quarters like you said. Collingwood had 3 players injured and I realise that would have a detrimental effect but you can't put a number of goals on that.From the five minute mark of the second quarter, Collingwood had three players off that couldn't return. Collingwood also had Brodie Holland hobbling with achilles soreness, and Josh Fraser on the bench with an iced thigh. In your opinion, an amount of goals cannot be put on that, and that's fine as you're allowed to have an opinion.
In my opinion though, the lack of rotation cost Collingwood about 6 goals, and it also effected Collingwood in the match against Melbourne in my opinion. During the third term against Brisbane, the Lions made about 17 interchanges, while Collingwood were only able to use the bench 3 times.There's absolutely no guarentee that those three Collingwood players would have produced 5-6 unanswered goals for their teamAgain you twit, I never said that it was "guaranteed." Not then, or now. All you are doing is making things up and pulling words out of your rectum. I said that it was my opinion.
Also, you just simply don't get it. It's not the three players that were missing, or the quality of the three players that were missing, but a combination of that and the ability to rest the players that were on the ground. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to understand that.
If Swan wasn't injured, he may have kicked two goals, if Maxwell wasn't injured, he may have prevented a goal or two, if a number of players were given the opportunity to have a break, then they could have been fresh enough to kick a goal or two as well. At the very least, fresh enough to provide a few more forward 50's for someone else to kick goals.You won by 4 goals, but in your eyes you won by 10 goals which is completely ridiculous. Also, I said Who?? about Richards because he is unknown and not rated outside Collingwood.Collingwood led by 38 points with minutes to go. Brisbane kicked two goals in the dying minutes due to Collingwood exhaustion, and that reduced the margin to 26 points. The win in my opinion was the equal of a 10-12 goal win under the circumstances.
That is what I said at the time, and you can read that again here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5212192&postcount=9) if you like, and it is what I say now. Nothing has changed. It is what I feel, and to me it was the best win of the season. If you don't agree with my opinion, then fine, but how many times do you intend on sharing that you don't agree? You've done it enough times, so isn't it time for you to shut-up about it and let it go?
By the way, you said that about Nick Maxwell, and not Guy Richards. You can't even keep track of your own rubbish. You also certainly haven't kept up with some of the footy critics, such as Gerard Healy, that have been highly impressed with Nick Maxwell. Just because you don't know who he is doesn't mean that he is not a good player, all it means is that you lack knowledge, and I've already mentioned that about you a few times.
Rack off now, stop trolling, and have a nice life.
ICanDressMyself
14 Jun 2006, 19:29
You are a troll because you spend your time trolling through Collingwood related threads, yet you barrack for the Crows. You agree with Johnson_26 because he has turned on his team after one loss and predicted that Collingwood will finish 6th-8th at best, so in other words, he feels that Collingwood will lose 6-7 of the last 11 matches. Whether that be right or not, it's a big statement after one poor performance this season.Because I can read that you're not original, intelligent, reasonable, or knowledgeable. By the way, I've just reported you for swearing and abuse, as those four letters that you used is considered language that is not permitted on BF.From the five minute mark of the second quarter, Collingwood had three players off that couldn't return. Collingwood also had Brodie Holland hobbling with achilles soreness, and Josh Fraser on the bench with an iced thigh. In your opinion, an amount of goals cannot be put on that, and that's fine as you're allowed to have an opinion.
It's his opinion. Why question it when you know he's not going to change it? As you said in the last sentence, ohsnon_26 is allowed to have his opinion and is just as much a supporter, if not more so, than you.
In my opinion though, the lack of rotation cost Collingwood about 6 goals, and it also effected Collingwood in the match against Melbourne in my opinion. During the third term against Brisbane, the Lions made about 17 interchanges, while Collingwood were only able to use the bench 3 times.Again you twit, I never said that it was "guaranteed." Not then, or now. All you are doing is making things up and pulling words out of your rectum. I said that it was my opinion.
Ok well your opinion is wrong. I can honestly say that even your own Collingwood fans wouldn't be putting an amount of goals 3 injured players equated to. Oh dear, so now you lost to Melbourne because you had injures. Trust a Collingwood fan to use that excuse. :rolleyes: Melbourne had Whealen and McLean withdraw prior to the start of the match and you still couldn't win. Every team has injuries, get over it.
Also, you just simply don't get it. It's not the three players that were missing, or the quality of the three players that were missing, but a combination of that and the ability to rest the players that were on the ground. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to understand that.
Yes I do get it. I'm also not stupid enough to say this many players were off so we should have won by this many goals. It's just moronic. You won, can't you be happy with that? You beat Brisbane by 4 goals, not 10.
If Swan wasn't injured, he may have kicked two goals, if Maxwell wasn't injured, he may have prevented a goal or two, if a number of players were given the opportunity to have a break, then they could have been fresh enough to kick a goal or two as well. At the very least, fresh enough to provide a few more forward 50's for someone else to kick goals.Collingwood led by 38 points with minutes to go. Brisbane kicked two goals in the dying minutes due to Collingwood exhaustion, and that reduced the margin to 26 points. The win in my opinion was the equal of a 10-12 goal win under the circumstances.
If Lappin wasn't injured he could have turned the game on it's head and dominate through the midfield. If Hadley wasn't injured he could cause problems for the Pies all over the field. :rolleyes: And I said I'm aware that you wouldn't have full use of the bench with 3 injures but big deal, other teams have been through the same experiece so be grateful you won and don't be such a greedy, whiney moron.
By the way, you said that about Nick Maxwell, and not Guy Richards. You can't even keep track of your own rubbish. You also certainly haven't kept up with some of the footy critics, such as Gerard Healy, that have been highly impressed with Nick Maxwell. Just because you don't know who he is doesn't mean that he is not a good player, all it means is that you lack knowledge, and I've already mentioned that about you a few times.
Maxwell, Richards, you see what I mean about being unknown outside Collingwood? I know who they are but I have no knowledge about them. I lack knowledge about Collingwood's youngsters, not knowledge in general but if you think you are the queen of footy knowledge then give me a run down on all the Crows youngsters going round, the clubs they were drafted from, how many games they've played, when they were drafted, their SANFL clubs etc etc. :rolleyes:
Rack off now, stop trolling, and have a nice life.
I've just reported your post as swearing is not acceptable on BF, and you hurt my feelings. :)
understudy
14 Jun 2006, 19:36
Steph dont waste your time with this troll, he's already proven himself as a first class moron all over BF.
He certainly loves talking about the pies, he should sign up for an interstate membership.
ICanDressMyself
14 Jun 2006, 19:40
He certainly loves talking about the pies, he should sign up for an interstate membership.
Yeah, then I'll cut it up and send it to the coach :)
goalpie
14 Jun 2006, 19:53
Yeah, then I'll cut it up and send it to the coach :)
Go chew your arm off you heathen animal.
KissStephanie
14 Jun 2006, 19:58
Steph dont waste your time with this troll, he's already proven himself as a first class moron all over BF.
He certainly loves talking about the pies, he should sign up for an interstate membership.I've noticed that the troll loves talking about Collingwood. In the closet Collingwood supporter it would appear, and maybe he has already bought that membership. ;)
He certainly has shown himself to be a prize ratbag though, and he fails to see that an opinion cannot be right or wrong because it is just an opinion, and I stand by mine. He can respond all he wants though because I put him ignore immediately after my previous post, and I can't read his rubbish anymore anyway. :)
ICanDressMyself
14 Jun 2006, 20:02
I've noticed that the troll loves talking about Collingwood. In the closet Collingwood supporter it would appear, and maybe he has already bought that membership. ;)
He certainly has shown himself to be a prize ratbag though, and he fails to see that an opinion cannot be right or wrong because it is just an opinion, and I stand by mine. He can respond all he wants though because I put him ignore immediately after my previous post, and I can't read his rubbish anymore anyway.
I told you I already bought my Collingwood FC membership and cut it up and sent it to the coach. :thumbsu:
Fails to see that an opinion cannot be right or wrong? You're the one going off at Johnson_26 for having an opinion. Have not seen so much hypocrisy in one sentence.
Good, have me on ignore. Not me though, I'll be reading your posts for pure entertainment knowing that you, along with many other females really do not know stuff all about footy.
Good day Miss Whine. :thumbsu:
Leg_Spinning_Sensation
14 Jun 2006, 20:11
Now, johnno it is great that you have an opinion and it is fine that you think we are back in the pack now but saying that we have absolutley no depth is going a little far, sure we have a young list and some of the players on the 22 onwards list are still yet to establish themselves but it's a little harsh.
Chad had a shocker and I don't think he is up to the league of AFL, Julian had a bad day, looks soft but I can see the potential in him but he has less time than he would like to have to really prove he is the real deal at AFL level. Then you have Iacobucci, who is still young and although was quiet I think he has a future, Travis is the same (the expectations are really high and I think he will become a superstar as well) but he has plenty to work on. We really missed the midfield presence of Dane and Brodie but I think what we missed even more than those two (which were huge absences) was Guy Richards. IT may sound a little silly but Guy's importance would have been very high on Monday, we really lacked another ruckman with Fraser being comprehensively beaten and Trav and Anthony just smashed as back up. Guy is a big talent and a great prospect for us, if injuries stay off, he'll be back for Sydney though.
8-3 is a great position and although it was very disappointing against Melbourne we certainly are not right back in the pack and I like our prospects, excellent chance at top 4 and a chance for the flag, whether we win it, will be found out in the coming months.
ICanDressMyself
14 Jun 2006, 20:14
Now, johnno it is great that you have an opinion and it is fine that you think we are back in the pack now but saying that we have absolutley no depth is going a little far, sure we have a young list and some of the players on the 22 onwards list are still yet to establish themselves but it's a little harsh.
Chad had a shocker and I don't think he is up to the league of AFL, Julian had a bad day, looks soft but I can see the potential in him but he has less time than he would like to have to really prove he is the real deal at AFL level. Then you have Iacobucci, who is still young and although was quiet I think he has a future, Travis is the same (the expectations are really high and I think he will become a superstar as well) but he has plenty to work on. We really missed the midfield presence of Dane and Brodie but I think what we missed even more than those two (which were huge absences) was Guy Richards. IT may sound a little silly but Guy's importance would have been very high on Monday, we really lacked another ruckman with Fraser being comprehensively beaten and Trav and Anthony just smashed as back up. Guy is a big talent and a great prospect for us, if injuries stay off, he'll be back for Sydney though.
8-3 is a great position and although it was very disappointing against Melbourne we certainly are not right back in the pack and I like our prospects, excellent chance at top 4 and a chance for the flag, whether we win it, will be found out in the coming months.
Wait so it was Richards that got injured not Maxwell?
Looks like Miss Whine is wrong after all.
Leg_Spinning_Sensation
14 Jun 2006, 20:51
Wait so it was Richards that got injured not Maxwell?
Looks like Miss Whine is wrong after all.
Both are injured, Maxwell fractured fibula and Richards sore achilles
Paddywackers
15 Jun 2006, 02:43
Pies will bounce back against the Swans, don't worry about that!
Swan, Holland and Richards are very handy inclusions.
You are a troll because you spend your time trolling through Collingwood related threads, yet you barrack for the Crows. You agree with Johnson_26 because he has turned on his team after one loss and predicted that Collingwood will finish 6th-8th at best, so in other words, he feels that Collingwood will lose 6-7 of the last 11 matches. Whether that be right or not, it's a big statement after one poor performance this season.Because I can read that you're not original, intelligent, reasonable, or knowledgeable. By the way, I've just reported you for swearing and abuse, as those four letters that you used is considered language that is not permitted on BF.From the five minute mark of the second quarter, Collingwood had three players off that couldn't return. Collingwood also had Brodie Holland hobbling with achilles soreness, and Josh Fraser on the bench with an iced thigh. In your opinion, an amount of goals cannot be put on that, and that's fine as you're allowed to have an opinion.
In my opinion though, the lack of rotation cost Collingwood about 6 goals, and it also effected Collingwood in the match against Melbourne in my opinion. During the third term against Brisbane, the Lions made about 17 interchanges, while Collingwood were only able to use the bench 3 times.Again you twit, I never said that it was "guaranteed." Not then, or now. All you are doing is making things up and pulling words out of your rectum. I said that it was my opinion.
Also, you just simply don't get it. It's not the three players that were missing, or the quality of the three players that were missing, but a combination of that and the ability to rest the players that were on the ground. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to understand that.
If Swan wasn't injured, he may have kicked two goals, if Maxwell wasn't injured, he may have prevented a goal or two, if a number of players were given the opportunity to have a break, then they could have been fresh enough to kick a goal or two as well. At the very least, fresh enough to provide a few more forward 50's for someone else to kick goals.Collingwood led by 38 points with minutes to go. Brisbane kicked two goals in the dying minutes due to Collingwood exhaustion, and that reduced the margin to 26 points. The win in my opinion was the equal of a 10-12 goal win under the circumstances.
That is what I said at the time, and you can read that again here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5212192&postcount=9) if you like, and it is what I say now. Nothing has changed. It is what I feel, and to me it was the best win of the season. If you don't agree with my opinion, then fine, but how many times do you intend on sharing that you don't agree? You've done it enough times, so isn't it time for you to shut-up about it and let it go?
By the way, you said that about Nick Maxwell, and not Guy Richards. You can't even keep track of your own rubbish. You also certainly haven't kept up with some of the footy critics, such as Gerard Healy, that have been highly impressed with Nick Maxwell. Just because you don't know who he is doesn't mean that he is not a good player, all it means is that you lack knowledge, and I've already mentioned that about you a few times.
Rack off now, stop trolling, and have a nice life.
Love ya work Steph :thumbsu:
doppleganger
15 Jun 2006, 12:43
A few but there are not a lot. Cox, Everitt, White. Might be one or two more. I’d settle for good though.Over the last 6 years? A fair bit obviously. Was he a ruckman? He certainly doesn’t win in then ruck at AFL level. That’s not really the point. Wed drafted him and had no mature age/bodied ruckman so we played him for 21 out of 22 games in the ruck in year 1. Then we trade a pried early pick for McKee who from day plainly wasn’t very good at anything. The fact we tried isn’t the issue. The fact we failed is. People who are paid to watch juniors judge these things. My problem is not with drafting Josh though. He is a quality player. No they didn’t. Pure ability deficiencies ended his career. The year before the rule changes he was the mule who at best broke even and that wasn’t particularly common. Our very good clearance midfield won many a contest from opposition rucks. McKee one trick was to ensure the contest was at the foot of the ruckman rather than out in the open. That was the one clear difference in the 2 grand finals. The problem with the McKee deal is that it cost us Pavlich. We knew it would cost us either Pavlich or Haselby. We knew how highly those 2 were regarded. We wanted to save Josh from the ruck. We had the right idea but it was executed by incompetents. Yes it is easy with hindsight but people get paid a lot of money to make these calls and if they get it wrong they should be accountable. That trade is probably the most disasterous trade we have ever made. It cost us at least 1 premiership and who know what else. Imagine a decent ruckman (say Everitt) and Pavlich in 2002/3 or now.
fair enough
ruck has been a weakness, but they have tried to address it and failed.
but they have succesfully adressed other weaknesses such as recruiting clem & wakes to shore up the back half
keeping faith in didak & leon in becoming a dynamic small forward combo
the need for quick skilled outside mids has been addressed
we lack a gun ruck, but they are really hard to get.....perhaps throwing a life line to gardi from perth might be an option, as he is supposedly playing 1st ruck at claremont.....think his time is up over in the west so he wouldn't really cost as much as he might be worth. or it could go pear shaped like the john hay deal?
....perhaps throwing a life line to gardi from perth might be an option, as he is supposedly playing 1st ruck at claremont.....think his time is up over in the west so he wouldn't really cost as much as he might be worth. or it could go pear shaped like the john hay deal?I’d be happy with that punt as long as we recognise it as a punt and pay accordingly. That means a cheap trade as well as an incentive based contract. In addition it should not be the only move we make because the chances of garner being an AFL ruckman are not great given he has physical and mental issue that have to be overcome. Both have to be adequately assessed prior to any deal but assuming we do that adequately it could be the gamble that makes all the difference. It would necessitate dropping Fanning (re rookie perhaps). I’d still like to draft a bigger bodied ruckman though.
Cassius_Clay
15 Jun 2006, 13:55
1 loss against a side that could play no better :rolleyes:
doppleganger
15 Jun 2006, 14:21
I’d be happy with that punt as long as we recognise it as a punt and pay accordingly. That means a cheap trade as well as an incentive based contract. In addition it should not be the only move we make because the chances of garner being an AFL ruckman are not great given he has physical and mental issue that have to be overcome. Both have to be adequately assessed prior to any deal but assuming we do that adequately it could be the gamble that makes all the difference. It would necessitate dropping Fanning (re rookie perhaps). I’d still like to draft a bigger bodied ruckman though.
i reckon gardi for a 2nd round pick would give the eagles something to think about, it will be roughly a pick around the 30 mark i reckon. or draft a big ruckman with the pick itself instead........either way no gaurantee of success with either scenario, but would u hold them accountable for not doing anything bout the ruck situation, trying and failing again by getting in gardi who is a dud(like mckee), or drafting a junior ruck with big wraps who doesn't reall make it (richards)??
I’d prefer a deal for Walker/Hall and Lockyer and keep the second rounder in a supposedly deep draft. Maybe said players to Freo if Freo satisfy WCE. All depends who else makes an offer though. On the Hay scale North might give up all their picks and Carey's father/son status.
As for holding them accountable. I’d prefer they tried but at the end of the day it is success that counts. If they draft the wrong kid then yes they are accountable. If it was a one off miss chasing what we need then it would be more than excusable but that would hardly be the case. If it was we wouldn’t be ruckless, lacking depth and short on quality midfielders.
johnson_26
15 Jun 2006, 20:32
really, i feel sorry for you steph.
Calling me a pessimistic collingwood supporter....
im not goign to say we've arrived, when we haven't...
we haven't arrived yet steph. Mick's been saying all year 'let's not get to hysterical over a couple of wins- theres 11 weeks to go'.
I'm like that fella off 'the wedge'- i wont say something, that's frankly not true. Im not gonna be a cop out, and say- just because i really really love my club i can't speak honestly about them.
MY OPINION- we are a bit off a flag, probably even a grand final appearance. OHHH HOW I'D LOVED TO BE PROVEN WRONG. But oour club, and yes after only one loss, showed a lack of depth against melbourne.
Go to the AFL website and look at the crows' injury list. It's 3 times the size of ours, with potentially 6-8 players injured all required in the starting 18/22. Namely: Hart, Clarke, welsh etc. And they are a genuine contender- because they maintain a position on the ladder despite recurring injury losses- lets not forget they've been without the roo a fair bit.
If 8 of our best 18 were out, we equate to collingwood of 2004/05- where we had no depth. Depth takes 2-3 years to build. It comprises of good drafting (good year for us this year), and game time for the 'kids'. I just don't think we are at the stage of being a GENUINE PREMIERSHIP contender. We will be a shaker, not a mover....
doppleganger
15 Jun 2006, 20:40
I’d prefer a deal for Walker/Hall and Lockyer and keep the second rounder in a supposedly deep draft. Maybe said players to Freo if Freo satisfy WCE. All depends who else makes an offer though. On the Hay scale North might give up all their picks and Carey's father/son status.
As for holding them accountable. I’d prefer they tried but at the end of the day it is success that counts. If they draft the wrong kid then yes they are accountable. If it was a one off miss chasing what we need then it would be more than excusable but that would hardly be the case. If it was we wouldn’t be ruckless, lacking depth and short on quality midfielders.
fair enough, dont think west coast would want that deal, no idea bout freo tho
most teams lack depth
Leg_Spinning_Sensation
15 Jun 2006, 21:24
If 8 of our best 18 were out, we equate to collingwood of 2004/05- where we had no depth. Depth takes 2-3 years to build. It comprises of good drafting (good year for us this year), and game time for the 'kids'. I just don't think we are at the stage of being a GENUINE PREMIERSHIP contender. We will be a shaker, not a mover....
Of course if that happens we are weakened, it happens for every team, 8 of your best 18 what a stupid point, that happens for every team. Take Judd, Cousins, Cox, Kerr, Glass, Embley, Hunter and Wirrapanda out of the West Coast side and they are a lot weaker perhaps not even top 8 material anymore so that is just a silly point.
The depth issue is blown out of proportion but yeah it takes kids a while to get going especially when Travis, Egan, Anthony, Rusling, Iles, Stanley etc and then Pendels and Dale are going to take their time to become stars though they have talent by the bucketful, we have to be patient with depth issues, but our middle of the road 24-25 year olds are all playing average footy, that is certainly a concern, I fully agree with you there.
johnson_26
15 Jun 2006, 21:57
well spin, those 23-25 years olds make up clubs depth, ie:
scott stevens couldnt crack a game round 1, now he's getting 10 marks (last weeks match anyway).
Our 21's, 23-25's= morrison, cloke's, walker, fanning, rowey,, just not good enough
doppleganger
15 Jun 2006, 22:19
well spin, those 23-25 years olds make up clubs depth, ie:
scott stevens couldnt crack a game round 1, now he's getting 10 marks (last weeks match anyway).
Our 21's, 23-25's= morrison, cloke's, walker, fanning, rowey,, just not good enough
23-25's???
T.Cloke 19
C.Cloke 21
J.Cloke 24
walker 22
rowe 21
fanning 22
Morrison 28
our 23-25's are
L.Davis 25
A.Didak 23
J.Fraser 24
B.Johnson 25
R.Lonie 23
Maxwell 23
Richards 23
R.Shaw 24
Swan 22
Tarrant 25
pretty strong based on this year actually
as evidenced by didak, davis, swan, r.shaw u need to give the young kids like rowe a chance to mature into AFL footballers, one bad game in when all the senior players were poor doesn't mean we have to scrap them
Hadders
15 Jun 2006, 23:15
i think the main problem with the Pies depth at the moment isn't necessarily the players we have but the fact that our bottom 18-30 players haven't played a great deal of footy.
if you look at the following:
Caracella 187 games
C. Cloke 21
J. Cloke 71
T. Cloke 22
Davies 9
Egan 14
Fanning 13
Iacobucci 4
O' Brien 10
Maxwell 40
Morrison 165
Pendlebury 2
Richards 20
Rowe 25
Rusling 6
H. Shaw 16
R. Shaw 52
Thomas 10
Walker 28
With the exception of Caracella, Morrison and probably J. Cloke, the rest of the Pies back-ups haven't played much footy at all, let alone for an extended period of time.
i think this plays a massive part in our perceived lack of depth. alot of these players have the talent to succeed at AFL level but just haven't had much opportunity to play on a regular basis. this inexperience results in a lack of confidence and when they finally do get a game at AFL level they struggle. to improve depth we have to get more games into these guys and on a regular basis. it's not use playing them for a week and then dropping them back to the VFL, we have to back a few of these guys and give them a few games in a row at AFL level.
we've seen how this has helped guys like maxwell, davis, rhyce and heath shaw and swan. admittedly some of the guys on the list aren't up to AFL standard but to build up depth those who show potential have to be given a chance to perform at the highest level.
doppleganger
16 Jun 2006, 12:20
i think the main problem with the Pies depth at the moment isn't necessarily the players we have but the fact that our bottom 18-30 players haven't played a great deal of footy.
if you look at the following:
Caracella 187 games
C. Cloke 21
J. Cloke 71
T. Cloke 22
Davies 9
Egan 14
Fanning 13
Iacobucci 4
O' Brien 10
Maxwell 40
Morrison 165
Pendlebury 2
Richards 20
Rowe 25
Rusling 6
H. Shaw 16
R. Shaw 52
Thomas 10
Walker 28
With the exception of Caracella, Morrison and probably J. Cloke, the rest of the Pies back-ups haven't played much footy at all, let alone for an extended period of time.
i think this plays a massive part in our perceived lack of depth. alot of these players have the talent to succeed at AFL level but just haven't had much opportunity to play on a regular basis. this inexperience results in a lack of confidence and when they finally do get a game at AFL level they struggle. to improve depth we have to get more games into these guys and on a regular basis. it's not use playing them for a week and then dropping them back to the VFL, we have to back a few of these guys and give them a few games in a row at AFL level.
we've seen how this has helped guys like maxwell, davis, rhyce and heath shaw and swan. admittedly some of the guys on the list aren't up to AFL standard but to build up depth those who show potential have to be given a chance to perform at the highest level.
and the blokes who show the most form are the blokes who have played the most games
ie
r.shaw 52 (before knee he had come good)
max 40
cant expect much when pendles 2, thomas 10, booch 4, rowe 25(first game for the year tho) all come in together to replace seasoned footballers in holland, cara etc.
especially when the leaders dont give them anything to work with
wait til these blokes have built up some matches before they can be judged properly
but based on that list time up for
j.cloke
morrison
walker
Hadders
16 Jun 2006, 16:10
and the blokes who show the most form are the blokes who have played the most games
ie
r.shaw 52 (before knee he had come good)
max 40
cant expect much when pendles 2, thomas 10, booch 4, rowe 25(first game for the year tho) all come in together to replace seasoned footballers in holland, cara etc.
especially when the leaders dont give them anything to work with
wait til these blokes have built up some matches before they can be judged properly
but based on that list time up for
j.cloke
morrison
walker
i'm sure if you looked at the clubs at the moment such as Adelaide and St. Kilda that have 'depth' you'd find that the bottom 18-30 players on their list have played alot more games than Collingwood's. As the list above shows the Pies really only have two tiers of experience, either they have a heap or very, very little.
the Pies lack any 50-100 game players who have proven they can perform at AFL level and are ready to step in if there are any injuries.
IMO this could be our downfall this year. if we do suffer some injuries our backups probably aren't as able to step up and give us a good performance - we are too reliant on senior players.
this was seen in the melbourne game and if the injuries keep coming I fear that it could hurt us in the rest of the season.
KissStephanie
20 Jun 2006, 14:03
Love ya work Steph :thumbsu:Thanks Murray! :) I'm just a true supporter. Although I'm optimistic, I don't lose touch with reality, and I tend to think laterally when I can.really, i feel sorry for you steph.
Calling me a pessimistic collingwood supporter....
im not goign to say we've arrived, when we haven't...
we haven't arrived yet steph. Mick's been saying all year 'let's not get to hysterical over a couple of wins- theres 11 weeks to go'.No need to feel sorry for me, and there isn't a need for you to do so. I was never hysterical over 8 wins, so please don't read things that I have not in fact said. I'm certainly more of an optimist than you are it seems though, so therefore I am pleased so far with the best start to a season since 1981.I'm like that fella off 'the wedge'- i wont say something, that's frankly not true. Im not gonna be a cop out, and say- just because i really really love my club i can't speak honestly about them.Spin the words that you originally typed anyway you like to, but the fact is that you said that Collingwood is a 6th-8th side at best, so in other words you expect them to win only 4 or 5 of the last 11 matches, yet you say that you're not a pessimist? MY OPINION- we are a bit off a flag, probably even a grand final appearance. OHHH HOW I'D LOVED TO BE PROVEN WRONG. But oour club, and yes after only one loss, showed a lack of depth against melbourne.My opinion is that you fail to see any contributing factors to that loss due to a pessimistic outlook that you have. True depth cannot be judged in my opinion when five forced changes are made in one week, but then again, I'm an optimist.
I also believe that Collingwood is a significantly better side than in 2002-03, yet the side made the Grand Final in those two seasons. I do understand that other teams have improved since then as well, but the important thing is that Collingwood has as well, so therefore to go a step beyond those two seasons is possible.
I don't agree that a team must lose a Grand Final before winning one as shown by Sydney last season, and others before it, and I do believe that Collingwood can beat any side in the AFL, particularly in Melbourne. My view on Collingwood as a true supporter, is that winning a premiership in 2006 is possible.
The reality of it is that although it is possible, there are some good teams that need to be beaten, but winning a premiership is not meant to be easy. Collingwood are currently third favourite for the flag though for goodness sake, yet you've written them off for this season. The oxymoron is that you claim that you're not a pessimist. :confused:Go to the AFL website and look at the crows' injury list. It's 3 times the size of ours, with potentially 6-8 players injured all required in the starting 18/22. Namely: Hart, Clarke, welsh etc. And they are a genuine contender- because they maintain a position on the ladder despite recurring injury losses- lets not forget they've been without the roo a fair bit.Oh for goodness sake. Does that mean that Adelaide would have beaten St.Kilda by more if that lot had played last weekend? Have they won a premiership with all of these players missing yet? There have been cases that a side can actually play better when they have players missing and bring others in, and I have seen that.
You are basing too much from 5 forced inclusions in the space of one week, and my view is that there isn't any team that can do that easily, particularly the week after not being able to use the interchange bench to rest players.If 8 of our best 18 were out, we equate to collingwood of 2004/05- where we had no depth. Depth takes 2-3 years to build. It comprises of good drafting (good year for us this year), and game time for the 'kids'. I just don't think we are at the stage of being a GENUINE PREMIERSHIP contender. We will be a shaker, not a mover....It depends on who the eight missing are of course. Every team would struggle to win a premiership with eight out, if five of them were their very best and most important players, and on the weekend, Adelaide had their best and most important players on the field. If you are waiting for Collingwood to be able to cover that many, then you are being unrealistic.
You say that Collingwood will be a shaker, but you've said that Collingwood will only win 4-5 matches for the rest of the season. I disagree with this opinion of yours, and I disagree with you if you don't consider yourself a pessimist.
as evidenced by didak, davis, swan, r.shaw u need to give the young kids like rowe a chance to mature into AFL footballers, one bad game in when all the senior players were poor doesn't mean we have to scrap themUnfortunately it isn’t that simple. You have a capped list size and a compulsory cull and draft. You have to make calls on kids unless you have certified duds. While we were patient with the above we culled Morrison, Nixon, Shak, Mullins, McGough etc etc.
Luckily for our kids this year we have certified duds but that’s why we lack depth. These days the difference between good and bad depth is really only a few 23-25 year olds. The AFL really has succeeded in normalising success, cycling rise and fall and equalising the comp. The downside is that if you miss your boat you can wait a long time for the next one.
i think the main problem with the Pies depth at the moment isn't necessarily the players we have but the fact that our bottom 18-30 players haven't played a great deal of footy.You can over analyse things sometimes. The fact is we drafted poorly for a few years and now we don’t have players from the 200 to 2004 drafts pushing other out of the way to play senior footy. We have drafted too many obviously flawed footballers. It’s just a function of the ability/performance of our recruiters and if you want to get more analytical, probably the early MM direction as to player types which was contrary to the development of the game. Fat arsed midfielders have made way for speedy midfielders.
johnson_26
22 Jun 2006, 14:58
you are an imbosile steph,,, you've really out done yourself
KissStephanie
25 Jun 2006, 09:14
you are an imbosile steph,,, you've really out done yourselfI'm a what? What word is that? Ha ha ha!
Do you mean that you're an imbecile? Well, I suppose that spelling was close enough to you. Ha ha ha! Oh, and 'outdone' is one word, not two separate words by the way Einstein. :rolleyes:
Do you often post attempted mis-spelt insults without discussing the topic at the same time? I'm sure that's not permitted on BigFooty, but I must say that mis-spelling that word was quite ironic and humourous! ;)
There is no need for your unsuccessful attempted insults because this thread of yours deserves every bit of criticism that it has received! It is the kind of thing expected from someone that jeers and boos their own team, and then rips up their membership ticket to send to the club, and I can't stand that behaviour. If you don't like that I feel that way, then that further confirms it in my opinion.
When this over-analytical rubbish thread was started, Collingwood had won 8 of 11 matches, were in third place on the ladder, and the best start since 1981, but you had to find negatives in that! Unbelievable! You spent your time over-analsing the reasons behind the loss to Melbourne, instead of looking at the obvious reasons that led to it.
In case you've missed it, they were in my opinion...
*Melbourne is a pretty good team and were ready to play.
*Collingwood were unable to use their interchange bench the previous week against Brisbane, and it showed. This led to Collingwood being flat and not ready to play.
*Five forced changes in one week is too many for any team.
*The effects of the serious injury to Blake Caracella the previous week is not to be underestimated on his teammates either.
After last night's away win against a full-strength reigning premiers Sydney, it would appear that I am right. The Melbourne loss was a bad day that needed to be forgotten, and at least I had faith that Collingwood would bounce back and beat the Swans. Depth players such as Harry O'Brien, Chris Egan and Chad Morrison also performed quite well too, further disproving your theories.
You on the other hand stated that Collingwood are a 6th-8th side at best, meaning that you felt that Collingwood would win only 4-5 matches out of the final 11 matches. Well, Collingwood have won one of them already, and a very impressive win it was too when our "rubbish depth" according to you is considered.
I'm sure that you're back on the bandwagon now though! :rolleyes:
johnson_26
25 Jun 2006, 10:45
ah she comes back out of the woodwork again, after a win...
I'm on the band wagon all the time love- im a pie fan through and through- my blood bleeds black and white.
However, no matter hwo good he win, no matter how good our youngsters were tonight, i still believe we lack more experience with our younger guys, eg: C3, pendles, thomas, egan etc..
With that in mind, within the next 3 years and these guys have played over 50 games, that's when we'll be ready.
Again, on a final note, let me reiterate the fact im a realist, while you steph, are a dreamist.
johnson_26
25 Jun 2006, 10:49
You on the other hand stated that Collingwood are a 6th-8th side at best, meaning that you felt that Collingwood would win only 4-5 matches out of the final 11 matches. Well, Collingwood have won one of them already, and a very impressive win it was too when our "rubbish depth" according to you is considered.
Now you're just putitng words into my mouth, further signifying the strength of your case. When did i say we would only win 4-5 of our first 11? I'd love tos ee the thread where i mentioned that specific figure.
P.S- if you want to finish 6th to 8th nowadays, it's virtually impossible to do so when you've only one 4 of your first 11, meaning you'd have to at least win 8 of your next 11. Don't follow your footy much do you steph? :rolleyes:
Timmy from Thomastown
25 Jun 2006, 11:05
However, no matter hwo good he win, no matter how good our youngsters were tonight, i still believe we lack more experience with our younger guys, eg: C3, pendles, thomas, egan etc..
With Richards Swan Maxwell Caracella Wakelin and Holland to come back in, we dont have any problems with experience. Most of those you named will make way for the experienced players returning, and if they dont make way thats a good thing because they are earning their spots.We are not too young or inexperienced to win the flag this year. We have the perfect blend of youth and experience to go all the way. Whether we have the ability and luck remains to be seen.
Our second oldest player is Scott Burns and he is in career best form. There are no passengers like we've had in the past. Lonie and Davis for example are now delivering every week.
ICanDressMyself
25 Jun 2006, 12:35
I'm a what? What word is that? Ha ha ha!
Do you mean that you're an imbecile? Well, I suppose that spelling was close enough to you. Ha ha ha! Oh, and 'outdone' is one word, not two separate words by the way Einstein. :rolleyes:
Do you often post attempted mis-spelt insults without discussing the topic at the same time? I'm sure that's not permitted on BigFooty, but I must say that mis-spelling that word was quite ironic and humourous! ;)
There is no need for your unsuccessful attempted insults because this thread of yours deserves every bit of criticism that it has received! It is the kind of thing expected from someone that jeers and boos their own team, and then rips up their membership ticket to send to the club, and I can't stand that behaviour. If you don't like that I feel that way, then that further confirms it in my opinion.
When this over-analytical rubbish thread was started, Collingwood had won 8 of 11 matches, were in third place on the ladder, and the best start since 1981, but you had to find negatives in that! Unbelievable! You spent your time over-analsing the reasons behind the loss to Melbourne, instead of looking at the obvious reasons that led to it.
In case you've missed it, they were in my opinion...
*Melbourne is a pretty good team and were ready to play.
*Collingwood were unable to use their interchange bench the previous week against Brisbane, and it showed. This led to Collingwood being flat and not ready to play.
*Five forced changes in one week is too many for any team.
*The effects of the serious injury to Blake Caracella the previous week is not to be underestimated on his teammates either.
After last night's away win against a full-strength reigning premiers Sydney, it would appear that I am right. The Melbourne loss was a bad day that needed to be forgotten, and at least I had faith that Collingwood would bounce back and beat the Swans. Depth players such as Harry O'Brien, Chris Egan and Chad Morrison also performed quite well too, further disproving your theories.
You on the other hand stated that Collingwood are a 6th-8th side at best, meaning that you felt that Collingwood would win only 4-5 matches out of the final 11 matches. Well, Collingwood have won one of them already, and a very impressive win it was too when our "rubbish depth" according to you is considered.
I'm sure that you're back on the bandwagon now though! :rolleyes:
God you ramble on about a lot of crap Stephanie. You're first 3 paragraphs are rambling on about grammar, then you take up 6 paragraphs which could easily have been summed up in a couple of sentences. I think what you're trying to do is prolonge your comments to make it seem like you know what you're talking about when in actual fact you really don't have a clue.
KissStephanie
25 Jun 2006, 12:46
ah she comes back out of the woodwork again, after a win...
I'm on the band wagon all the time love- im a pie fan through and through- my blood bleeds black and white.
However, no matter hwo good he win, no matter how good our youngsters were tonight, i still believe we lack more experience with our younger guys, eg: C3, pendles, thomas, egan etc..
With that in mind, within the next 3 years and these guys have played over 50 games, that's when we'll be ready.
Again, on a final note, let me reiterate the fact im a realist, while you steph, are a dreamist.You are nothing but a bandwagon (not two separate words you imbecile) jumper! Making things up is not going to give you any credibility, so simply calling me a bandwagon jumper was just your childish reaction to me recognising this in you.
After the loss to Melbourne, I was defending my team and recognising the reasons that led to that terrible result, and to claim I'm back because of a win is just a flat-out lie and making things up, and if you need proof, search my posts dopey. You on the other hand decided to start a thread bagging players and claiming that Collingwood are not good enough and that there were no excuses.
You're still calling yourself a realist? Ha ha ha ha ha! You're a bandwagon jumping, Collingwood player bashing pessimist. I'm a realist, and in my opinion, Collingwood is a chance to win the premiership. I have never said that they will win the flag, but they are a bloody good chance, and that is the reason that Collingwood is currently third favourite for the premiership!
You on the other hand started this thread by claiming that Collingwood were a 6th-8th team at best with their best team on the field.Now you're just putitng words into my mouth, further signifying the strength of your case. When did i say we would only win 4-5 of our first 11? I'd love tos ee the thread where i mentioned that specific figure.Hello? 'Tap...tap...tap...tap'...is anybody home?
I never said anything about Collingwood's first 11 games, and now you're just making things up. You said that Collingwood are a 6th-8th team at best at full-strength. Collingwood had won 8 of the first 11 matches when you said this, so that means that you expected Collingwood to win only 4-5 of the last 11 matches, not the first 11 matches dopey, and I never said otherwise.
Not only are you a bandwagon jumping, Collingwood-bashing pessimist, but you don't even read my previous posts before you respond. I most certainly know more about footy, and I definitely have more faith in my team than you do.
P.S- if you want to finish 6th to 8th nowadays, it's virtually impossible to do so when you've only one 4 of your first 11, meaning you'd have to at least win 8 of your next 11. Don't follow your footy much do you steph?Firstly, it's 'won' by the way, not 'one.'
Secondly, why are you even mentioning the first half of the season? I said that you expect Collingwood to win only 4-5 of the second half of the season, and I have always disagreed with that prediction of yours.
Collingwood have won one of them already as well, so now you only expect them to win 3-4 of the last 10.
our first 22-25 good (top 8, maybe top 6 material).
Our list 25-30= RUBBISH.
Analysis:
Playing Performance today: 3/10
We kicked nearly a hundred points and didnt have a winner in the foward half (bar daks). Thats the three points, along with our two backs- clement and heath shaw= magnificent!
Also, the young kids- Pendlebury and especially thomo's last quater= sensational. Pendles was great for us today i thought, he relaly battled hard. Thomo was greta in that last quater- he stopepd it from becomming a blow out.
As for the rest, the midfield was poor, the work ethic non existant. Players don't go out there and not try- let us understand that. What we need to understand, was that this game was a great indicator at where our playing list is as a club.
Coaching Performance: 5/10
Not one of mick's finest couple of hours, but he has limited control over what happens on the field- he can only tell the players so much, it is their role to execute.
However, i found it amazingly hard to believe we gave them a spare half back flank consistently in the third and fourth quater when the dee's made their midfield rotations, giving them an extra man at the stoppage. That hurt. Also malthouse's slow reaction to not moving bucks further up the ground when the game was up for grabs, and selecting morrison in the side- rubbish.
Yet, he can only do so much. every coach has a bad day, mick's turn game, he is a marvellous mentor, we'll be right with him there.
Example was in the last quater, we had C3 ruck, Pendles centre, and iaccobucci as a rover. Realising we were out of the game, he was trying to benefit the kids in the long run, giving them maximum exposure at the highest level against a team red hot.
Our list really struggles, as proven today. A few of our upper tier go and we are left scrambling.
Players today who proved to me we are never going to be successful on the field as long as we have those types, and some who just proved to me they aren't ever going to be AFL standard are:
- Julian Rowe
- Shane O'Bree
- Travis Cloke* (let's give him time, but today baring last quater a couple of cheap kicks, he was fairly average).
- Chad Morrison (i was ridiculously lambasted for criticising the drafting of morrison at the start of the year- i was proved right)
Further, we have guys like brent hall, jason cloke, tristan walker, on our list. These guys are never going tot ake us to premiership glory- our list is very thin.
Further, we have guys like rocca, burns, buckley, wakelin etc who won't be at the club within the next 2-3 years. it's now or never for a flag tilt, and quite frankly we're not anywhere near that yet.
We lost one game- big deal. But, this game just proved we can't go and get ahead of ourselves. We were outclassed by a finals contender-