View Full Version : Cosgrove >>>>>>>>>>>> Katich
rubbers0ul
27 Jul 2006, 04:06
how cosi didnt even get in the 25 man squad is beyond me.....
has proved all that he can in the past 12 months (breathtaking form for SA, carved up the bangladeshes outscoring kat 2 to 1, and top scored for Aus A)
what more can he bloody do?
then again i guess the selectors know exactly what their doing dropping lehmann for katich 2 summers ago did cost australia the ashes over in england. had boof played no doubt we would have won!
oh well, at least the redbacks will have the 'best 2' players in the country playing for them (outside the 10 playing for australia)
boof, cosi >>> clarke, katich
how cosi didnt even get in the 25 man squad is beyond me.....
has proved all that he can in the past 12 months (breathtaking form for SA, carved up the bangladeshes outscoring kat 2 to 1, and top scored for Aus A)
what more can he bloody do?
then again i guess the selectors know exactly what their doing dropping lehmann for katich 2 summers ago did cost australia the ashes over in england. had boof played no doubt we would have won!
oh well, at least the redbacks will have the 'best 2' players in the country playing for them (outside the 10 playing for australia)
boof, cosi >>> clarke, katich
Just because boof makes runs in country cricket doesn't mean he would have mastered Freddie, Hoggard, Jones and Harmison. He's always had a weakness against pace bowling. He has struggled against anything greater than competent fast bowling. His reflexes have slowed so he would have struggled against that quality. And he would have been a liability in the field. He deserved to go when his cards were marked.
Dogboy21
27 Jul 2006, 09:05
Just because boof makes runs in country cricket doesn't mean he would have mastered Freddie, Hoggard, Jones and Harmison. He's always had a weakness against pace bowling. He has struggled against anything greater than competent fast bowling. His reflexes have slowed so he would have struggled against that quality. And he would have been a liability in the field. He deserved to go when his cards were marked.
"deserved to go when his cards were marked" - you are a spanker.
Ask binga if he reckons Boof can't play quicks..peeled a 150 off Binga and co not that long ago.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 10:26
Just because boof makes runs in country cricket doesn't mean he would have mastered Freddie, Hoggard, Jones and Harmison. He's always had a weakness against pace bowling. He has struggled against anything greater than competent fast bowling. His reflexes have slowed so he would have struggled against that quality. And he would have been a liability in the field. He deserved to go when his cards were marked.
More evidence you dont have a clue abour cricket.
More evidence you dont have a clue abour cricket.
Yes just more evidence. Well when people make ridiculous statements such as Boof making the difference in us winning the Ashes last year one has to make a stand. The reality is Boof was a great player of spin as I mentioned above, but weak against pace as I alluded to in the aforementioned post. That was done using my power of observation.
Now let's go to the stats for his test match career.
He averages 44 - not a bad average. But when you dissect it it gives weight to my argument. He only has a moderate average against most comers but, wait for it, averages 143 against Bangladesh. He has 5 test centuries, 2 against the Bangers and 2 against the spin laden Sri Lankans. The other one was against the West Indies who haven't been noted for their star quality at test level in recent times, nor their frightening fast bowlers.
He averages 20 against England in 5 tests, and only 25 against Pakistan, who apart from us, would be the nation most likely to have produced decent pacemen. Also no 50's against the poms but 4 against the spin-friendly Lankans and 2 against India ; also a couple against the Windies.
Given last year the poms probably assembled their best pace quartet to confront Australia in recent history, Lehmann had no convincing case to face, let alone dominate them. Factor in his age and his problematic fielding, it added further weight to an argument against him playing. And don't mention his bowling, it would not have been a factor.
rubbers0ul
27 Jul 2006, 11:57
so i guess lehmann never faced english test quality fast bowlers in all his years of country cricket where he is the most successful modern day australian cricketer in this competition......?
im not making excuses but in 4 or the 5 ashes test lehmann played he came in at 4/400 odd.
still boof would have been way way better then clarke and katich on that tour.
Browney2006
27 Jul 2006, 12:02
so i guess lehmann never faced english test quality fast bowlers in all his years of country cricket where he is the most successful modern day australian cricketer in this competition......?
im not making excuses but in 4 or the 5 ashes test lehmann played he came in at 4/400 odd.
still boof would have been way way better then clarke and katich on that tour.
I doubt it, he would have faired the same.
chunkylover
27 Jul 2006, 12:04
so i guess lehmann never faced english test quality fast bowlers in all his years of country cricket where he is the most successful modern day australian cricketer in this competition......?
im not making excuses but in 4 or the 5 ashes test lehmann played he came in at 4/400 odd.
still boof would have been way way better then clarke and katich on that tour.
have you seen much county cricket? you would see more intensity at your local park on a saturday afternoon. dont get mewrong there are some talented players but intensity drops playing 6 days out of 7 and 120 overs in a day.
Dogboy21
27 Jul 2006, 13:23
Yes just more evidence. Well when people make ridiculous statements such as Boof making the difference in us winning the Ashes last year one has to make a stand. The reality is Boof was a great player of spin as I mentioned above, but weak against pace as I alluded to in the aforementioned post. That was done using my power of observation.
Now let's go to the stats for his test match career.
He averages 44 - not a bad average. But when you dissect it it gives weight to my argument. He only has a moderate average against most comers but, wait for it, averages 143 against Bangladesh. He has 5 test centuries, 2 against the Bangers and 2 against the spin laden Sri Lankans. The other one was against the West Indies who haven't been noted for their star quality at test level in recent times, nor their frightening fast bowlers.
He averages 20 against England in 5 tests, and only 25 against Pakistan, who apart from us, would be the nation most likely to have produced decent pacemen. Also no 50's against the poms but 4 against the spin-friendly Lankans and 2 against India ; also a couple against the Windies.
Given last year the poms probably assembled their best pace quartet to confront Australia in recent history, Lehmann had no convincing case to face, let alone dominate them. Factor in his age and his problematic fielding, it added further weight to an argument against him playing. And don't mention his bowling, it would not have been a factor.
"where thou out" - go find her and stay away from cricket.
so i guess lehmann never faced english test quality fast bowlers in all his years of country cricket where he is the most successful modern day australian cricketer in this competition......?
im not making excuses but in 4 or the 5 ashes test lehmann played he came in at 4/400 odd.
still boof would have been way way better then clarke and katich on that tour.
I think some people are too fixated on country cricket. Clarke at least made a 90 ; Lehmann's past performances would have suggested he would have struggled to do that against England. And that was before the reflexes were in decline. I lived in England for a number of years in the 90's and believe me, county cricket still has a sense of glorified village cricket about it. Half decent players with intent dominate county but that doesn't necessarily translate to test level. If we look at county form we can mount just as much a case for Hodge, as Lehmann. And interesting those who were extolling the virtues of Langer's form based on his triple ton in county, an article today pointed out how he's just past 50 once in his last 12 test innings which is what I was trying to suggest last week. County form is not that relevant really.
Cassius_Clay
27 Jul 2006, 15:24
More evidence you dont have a clue abour cricket.
Just more evidence that South Australian's are the most biased people in Australia.
Just more evidence that South Australian's are the most biased people in Australia.
Was thinking the same myself. Time some of them removed their blue, red and gold glasses.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 19:10
Was thinking the same myself. Time some of them removed their blue, red and gold glasses.
You're a Pies supporter, one-eyed is not just a behavioural trait for you, it's a fact of life.
SorryIHammerChicken
27 Jul 2006, 20:04
You're a Pies supporter, one-eyed is not just a behavioural trait for you, it's a fact of life.
It's a fair point, you have a vendetta against Romeo, and coupled with your SA bias, you felt the need to defend Boof even though what Romeo said is somewhat true...
I like Boof as much as the next bloke but let's face it, he was dropped for a reason and while he didn't play as many Tests as his talent warranted, he was unlucky in his earlier years but that doesn't mean he should get more Tests when he's past his prime to "make up for it".
Ice goddess
27 Jul 2006, 20:19
It's a fair point, you have a vendetta against Romeo, and coupled with your SA bias, you felt the need to defend Boof even though what Romeo said is somewhat true...
I like Boof as much as the next bloke but let's face it, he was dropped for a reason and while he didn't play as many Tests as his talent warranted, he was unlucky in his earlier years but that doesn't mean he should get more Tests when he's past his prime to "make up for it".
Spot on there. Sadly for Lehmann he was overlooked due to the good form of others when he was younger and playing well. Maybe he would have had a great test career had he been promoted earlier. But I steadfastly believe that towards the end of his career for Australia he didn't inspire confidence in Aussie fans. I think the selectors terminating his career was probably the right thing to do in terms of long-term planning. Mark Waugh and others suffered the same fate. His time was up and I doubt if he would have made the difference during the Ashes series when even the great Ponting wasn't exactly churning out heaps of runs.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 21:13
It's a fair point, you have a vendetta against Romeo, and coupled with your SA bias, you felt the need to defend Boof even though what Romeo said is somewhat true...
I like Boof as much as the next bloke but let's face it, he was dropped for a reason and while he didn't play as many Tests as his talent warranted, he was unlucky in his earlier years but that doesn't mean he should get more Tests when he's past his prime to "make up for it".
Actually, what Romeo said was not true, and I have explained my views on the Lehmann/Ashes situation a number of times.
I'm not typing it out again.
Actually, what Romeo said was not true, and I have explained my views on the Lehmann/Ashes situation a number of times.
I'm not typing it out again.
Yet another cop out. Your main responses seem to be along the lines of 'proves you know nothing about cricket', or now 'I've typed them about before'. How about eludicating them once more. I argue points such as Langer's recent form in test cricket is not terribly good, and yet just here, proves what little you know about cricket. Same with when I make assertions about the low standard of county cricket etc. How about you argue your case with valid observations and not be so dismissive and contemptuous of others' views.
Check Lehmann's test record, check his stats against England. Look how he was struggling against good bowling, especially pace after he hit 30. Bear in mind pace was never his forte. And don't use he came in at 4/450 as an excuse. It's hardly hard evidence that he would have benefited more by coming in at 4/50.
Oh and I clearly remember him coming in against Pakistan in 2004 to stem the flow of wickets, hopefully only to have his castle disturbed by Aktar and looking hopelessly at sea against his thunderbolts. I think it was moments like these which helped seal his fate in the selectors' minds.
eddiesmith
27 Jul 2006, 21:39
I still believe Cossie didnt get a contract due to the expected high number of retirements next year, so instead of dumping players then giving them a new contract they stuck with them and the young players will get contracts when there are a million gaps next season
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 21:40
Oh and I clearly remember him coming in against Pakistan in 2004 to stem the flow of wickets, hopefully only to have his castle disturbed by Aktar and looking hopelessly at sea against his thunderbolts. I think it was moments like these which helped seal his fate in the selectors' minds.
Remind me of his first 2 international fifties.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 21:42
Here's some
Yes, Lehmann should have been given the Ashes series before he retired and may have been the difference. He certainly couldn't have done worse than Katich or Clarke.
He was an expert in English conditions, his tactical nous was a key support plank for Ponting that suddenly went missing (and it showed), he was an extremely popular and galvanising team member, and his bowling played a significant role in many games.
Dropping him before the Ashes was the selectors' worst mistake of the recent era, he offered more than simply his batting, he was Ponting's confidante and the shadow captain of the side. Without a doubt he could have made a difference in the Ashes and Katich's subsequent Ashes dumping shows the waste of time retaining him really was.
Lehmann would have retired post-Ashes anyway, giving him that was at least what he deserved.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 21:47
Another recent performance, Nov 2005
he scored 159 against an attack containing McGrath, Lee, MacGill, Bracken and Clark a couple of weeks back. Pretty ordinary attack, eh?
I guess he must face only ordinary attacks every 5.88 innings.
Here's some
Since when does making runs in country cricket make one an 'expert' in English conditions. It certainly familiarises one with them but is no guarantee that a player will succeed at the much more challenging test level. If we were really that hung up on county performances we would be giving that 'heard of' pom Clarke who made a double ton in the match where Langer made his triple ton. Interesting also that Langer who was sconed the last time he faced a ball in test cricket made that triple ton yet has only passed 50 once in his last 12 test innings. There is a big difference between country and test level and it's time you acknowledged it. As for the other innings you cite, it's just one innings and it's still not test cricket. McGrath at Pura Cup level is not the same bowler as when he's steaming in to face international foes. And Lehmann in Pura Cup has the luxury of playing every other match in Adelaide which probably these days has more even and predictable bounce than any other venue in Australia. Especially given the recent character of the Perth pitch which used to earn this mantle.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 22:33
Since when does making runs in country cricket make one an 'expert' in English conditions. It certainly familiarises one with them but is no guarantee that a player will succeed at the much more challenging test level. If we were really that hung up on county performances we would be giving that 'heard of' pom Clarke who made a double ton in the match where Langer made his triple ton. Interesting also that Langer who was sconed the last time he faced a ball in test cricket made that triple ton yet has only passed 50 once in his last 12 test innings. There is a big difference between country and test level and it's time you acknowledged it. As for the other innings you cite, it's just one innings and it's still not test cricket. McGrath at Pura Cup level is not the same bowler as when he's steaming in to face international foes. And Lehmann in Pura Cup has the luxury of playing every other match in Adelaide which probably these days has more even and predictable bounce than any other venue in Australia. Especially given the recent character of the Perth pitch which used to earn this mantle.
Ah, of course, just disregard all stats that don't suit you.
It's consistency of form, against all-comers, years after year, Romeo. That's what you base it on.
In fact, Lehmann is the second most prolific scorer of hundreds after Bradman in Australia history - once every 5.88 innings.
Amazing.
As for your Langer point:
1. Langer's had a history of being sconed by the short ball. If you knew a thing, you'd know that.
2. One 50 in 12 innings? Hell, Hayden's run was worse than that. How's he going now?
3. Langer faced all those fearsome bowlers you talked about in the Ashes and guess what? He was Australia's best batsman.
Ah, of course, just disregard all stats that don't suit you.
It's consistency of form, against all-comers, years after year, Romeo. That's what you base it on.
In fact, Lehmann is the second most prolific scorer of hundreds after Bradman in Australia history - once every 5.88 innings.
Amazing.
As for your Langer point:
1. Langer's had a history of being sconed by the short ball. If you knew a thing, you'd know that.
2. One 50 in 12 innings? Hell, Hayden's run was worse than that. How's he going now?
3. Langer faced all those fearsome bowlers you talked about in the Ashes and guess what? He was Australia's best batsman.
No, I think you disregard stats which don't suit you. Big deal if his century average is second only to Bradman. Overall his test record is relatively ordinary in view of who he scored the runs against. The question was was he suited to playing against the poms last year? If you consider his record against England and some of his problems against pace bowling (and let's look at test level) he was not going to be the answer against them. Lehmann's most impressive performances have been against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, the latter confirming my views that he plays spin well as their slower bowlers are their most dangerous, and of course coming in at #6 he wouldn't be facing Vaas their best paceman in his opening spell.
Yes I know all about Langer being sconed ; even happened during his very first test match. And I know he was our heaviest scorer in the Ashes. Nevertheless the focus is on recent form. I was pointing out recently his declining statistics. Only passing 50 once in his last 12 innings is irrefutable evidence of that. The other thing I observed from watching him was his struggle to bat fluently. He tended to flog some fours, often it looked out of desperation, and then was inclined to get bogged down for long periods. His batting has lacked fluidity in recent times. Yes he made a triple ton but country form doesn't convince me.
And cut out this "if you something or anything about cricket", it's wearing fun and is dismissive, comptemptuous and downright arrogant!
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 22:59
No, I think you disregard stats which don't suit you. Big deal if his century average is second only to Bradman. Overall his test record is relatively ordinary in view of who he scored the runs against. The question was was he suited to playing against the poms last year? If you consider his record against England and some of his problems against pace bowling (and let's look at test level) he was not going to be the answer against them. Lehmann's most impressive performances have been against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, the latter confirming my views that he plays spin well as their slower bowlers are their most dangerous, and of course coming in at #6 he wouldn't be facing Vaas their best paceman in his opening spell.
He was at 2nd drop, not 4th.
And what stats am I disregarding? So what if he had a couple of bad scores against England in Australia?
You completely discount long-term, consistent dominating form in both Australia and England, where he played all of those bowlers.
And don't give me this crap about 'they're not dangerous at first-class'. Of course they are - no good bowler is going to bowl worse just because they're first-class. These bowlers get there because of commitment AND talent.
Yes I know all about Langer being sconed ; even happened during his very first test match. And I know he was our heaviest scorer in the Ashes. Nevertheless the focus is on recent form. I was pointing out recently his declining statistics. Only passing 50 once in his last 12 innings is irrefutable evidence of that. The other thing I observed from watching him was his struggle to bat fluently. He tended to flog some fours, often it looked out of desperation, and then was inclined to get bogged down for long periods. His batting has lacked fluidity in recent times. Yes he made a triple ton but country form doesn't convince me.
Hayden?
And cut out this "if you something or anything about cricket", it's wearing fun and is dismissive, comptemptuous and downright arrogant!
You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about cricket. :)
He was at 2nd drop, not 4th.
And what stats am I disregarding? So what if he had a couple of bad scores against England in Australia?
You completely discount long-term, consistent dominating form in both Australia and England, where he played all of those bowlers.
And don't give me this crap about 'they're not dangerous at first-class'. Of course they are - no good bowler is going to bowl worse just because they're first-class. These bowlers get there because of commitment AND talent.
Hayden?
You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about cricket. :)
Hayden? what about him? He had a bad patch and was lucky to retain his spot. But the jury's still out as to whether he will be the same player he was in his dominant years against the poms this summer for similar reasons to Langer's. In SA when the going was tough Hayden had some failures against testing pace bowling. Was also a tad lucky in a couple of his higher innings. Don't think he's the player he was though I believe he's recognised that himself and is trying to play accordingly.
I don't care how dominant Lehmann has been against English bowlers in country conditions. County games and tests are poles apart. The selectors in their wisdom felt he wasn't equipped to handle the poms in their conditions with their best attack in an Ashes series for years. On balance they made the right decision. None of the evidence of good country form or a good knock here and there against a McGrath led attack in Pura Cup is convincing enough. His test record shows that he struggled against good pace bowling. And he certainly wasn't getting any younger.
And just one thing about facing English bowlers over a long period etc. There's a difference between facing one of them + assorted crap for one county and facing a pace quartet which is the best fielded by a country. Ever heard of building pressure by force of numbers? That's what the cumulative effect of having a Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and a Jones does to one. Name the times where Lehmann has faced, and dominated this mob in tandem.
just maybe
27 Jul 2006, 23:54
Hayden? what about him? He had a bad patch and was lucky to retain his spot. But the jury's still out as to whether he will be the same player he was in his dominant years against the poms this summer for similar reasons to Langer's. In SA when the going was tough Hayden had some failures against testing pace bowling. Was also a tad lucky in a couple of his higher innings. Don't think he's the player he was though I believe he's recognised that himself and is trying to play accordingly.
His bad patch was longer and worse than Langer's?
I don't care how dominant Lehmann has been against English bowlers in country conditions. County games and tests are poles apart. The selectors in their wisdom felt he wasn't equipped to handle the poms in their conditions with their best attack in an Ashes series for years. On balance they made the right decision. None of the evidence of good country form or a good knock here and there against a McGrath led attack in Pura Cup is convincing enough. His test record shows that he struggled against good pace bowling. And he certainly wasn't getting any younger.
A good knock 'here or there'? Complete ignorance of his form since being dropped does you no favours.
Clarke and Katich should both have been behind Lehmann in the Ashes. And both performed accordingly. As, sadly, did Martyn.
And just one thing about facing English bowlers over a long period etc. There's a difference between facing one of them + assorted crap for one county and facing a pace quartet which is the best fielded by a country. Ever heard of building pressure by force of numbers? That's what the cumulative effect of having a Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and a Jones does to one. Name the times where Lehmann has faced, and dominated this mob in tandem.
He's dominated better attacks in Australia.
His bad patch was longer and worse than Langer's?
A good knock 'here or there'? Complete ignorance of his form since being dropped does you no favours.
Clarke and Katich should both have been behind Lehmann in the Ashes. And both performed accordingly. As, sadly, did Martyn.
He's dominated better attacks in Australia.
What better attacks? I don't want to here about Pura Cup, I want to hear about him dominating very good attacks at test level, that's what the selectors were assessing when deciding who would front the Ashes. But you seem to have consistently ignored how his test record suggests that he tended mainly to make runs against the minnows.
And when I say a good knock now and then, I mean against half decent bowlers. Pura Cup form today is not what it used to be given that the best internationals miss most matches. There are blokes playing who in previous decades would have mainly been confined to the club level. Additionally, as mentioned previously, Lehmann has the luxury of playing every other game in Adelaide. Fronting up to England's four-pronged pace attack under leaden skies, occasionally on pitches with uneven bounce is just a little bit removed from butchering some indifferent attacks on Adelaide Oval roads.
The bottom line is the selectors agree with me ; not you. And I think when it comes to collective cricket wisdom they might just have you covered.
Dogboy21
28 Jul 2006, 09:08
What better attacks? I don't want to here about Pura Cup, I want to hear about him dominating very good attacks at test level, that's what the selectors were assessing when deciding who would front the Ashes. But you seem to have consistently ignored how his test record suggests that he tended mainly to make runs against the minnows.
And when I say a good knock now and then, I mean against half decent bowlers. Pura Cup form today is not what it used to be given that the best internationals miss most matches. There are blokes playing who in previous decades would have mainly been confined to the club level. Additionally, as mentioned previously, Lehmann has the luxury of playing every other game in Adelaide. Fronting up to England's four-pronged pace attack under leaden skies, occasionally on pitches with uneven bounce is just a little bit removed from butchering some indifferent attacks on Adelaide Oval roads.
The bottom line is the selectors agree with me ; not you. And I think when it comes to collective cricket wisdom they might just have you covered.
Fair dinkum you are comfortably the most boring contributor on this sight.
Are you a jouno? "four pronged pace attack under leaden skies..." wow.
Lucky you have your 50 Test Matches to tuck away in your back pocket...
Grimwood
28 Jul 2006, 09:22
He's dominated better attacks in Australia.
Bollocks has he.
Griffith, Clark, Lewis, Kasprowicz, et al?
You're having a laugh.