View Full Version : M Malthouse (Not health issue) - In general
PieLebo87
10 Aug 2006, 22:02
What is everyones views on him?
In the last 2 years he has really confused me. At times I have just wanted him to go because he appeared to be past it through some of his decision-making and on other times he has shown himself to still have it and make brilliant moves :confused:
Should he be there in 2007?
2008?
Can there be a better replacement?
No matter what, MM has only improved this club since coming in in 2000. But there are those that believe we should've had a Premiership had he made some smarter moves when it counted... Your views on everything?
Regardless, you cannot in your right mind sack a coach when our club has gone from 15th to 5th.
PieLebo87
10 Aug 2006, 22:20
Regardless, you cannot in your right mind sack a coach when our club has gone from 15th to 5th.
We also went from 2nd to 15th...injuries, BUT, as a Pie fan, and looking at our 'clock', I would think a premiership is something we should aim at this year, especially since its such a wide open race. We have the right mix of youth and veterans. Those veterans wont be there soon enough. (Rocca, Buckley, Burns, Clement... VERY important players)
Regardless, you cannot in your right mind sack a coach when our club has gone from 15th to 5th.
Yes you can. Malthouse has been there since the 1999 draft. He is coaching his list and with the draft opportunities he ahs had we should have played more than 2 finals series and we should be right up there with the very best of lists and chock full of young talent. Instead we are thin and we are about to be exposed on the ball and down back.
List management issues aside MM will been in charge for 7 season by the end of this one. 5th is not nearly good enough and if injuries are to blame for 2005 then lack of injuries are elevating us this year and did in 2002 and 2003. I hope to Christ we win the flag this year but if we fall a game or two short and MM is praised for it I will throw up.
Over 7 years Malthouse has failed. That is the bottom line. Time has to be up. How long do you give a coach? At the rate Malthouse develops a list over 3 stints at coaching in 3 clubs when can we expect a premiership? 2 more years? 5 more before the last 2 drafts develop?
It is already too late for MM – unless he produces the good this year.
PieLebo87
12 Aug 2006, 20:59
Yes you can. Malthouse has been there since the 1999 draft. He is coaching his list and with the draft opportunities he ahs had we should have played more than 2 finals series and we should be right up there with the very best of lists and chock full of young talent. Instead we are thin and we are about to be exposed on the ball and down back.
List management issues aside MM will been in charge for 7 season by the end of this one. 5th is not nearly good enough and if injuries are to blame for 2005 then lack of injuries are elevating us this year and did in 2002 and 2003. I hope to Christ we win the flag this year but if we fall a game or two short and MM is praised for it I will throw up.
Over 7 years Malthouse has failed. That is the bottom line. Time has to be up. How long do you give a coach? At the rate Malthouse develops a list over 3 stints at coaching in 3 clubs when can we expect a premiership? 2 more years? 5 more before the last 2 drafts develop?
It is already too late for MM – unless he produces the good this year.
I agree with ALLLLLL that, and Im also sick of babying our list. Players have to start growing up and showing their worth otherwise should be shown the door, no more chances, simple as that... if we want to move forward and win Premierships.
I agree with ALLLLLL that, and Im also sick of babying our list. Players have to start growing up and showing their worth otherwise should be shown the door, no more chances, simple as that... if we want to move forward and win Premierships.
But we were 15th last year
PieLebo87
13 Aug 2006, 21:19
But we were 15th last year
Murray I understand that, but why do we have to keep looking at this as an excuse for THIS SEASON. That was 2005, we are now in 2006... and I thought we had a horror year last year due to injuries? :confused: We have our list back and have actually been blessed, injury-wise, this year. So there has to be a reason why this list isn't a top 4. Last year ain't a good excuse.
Murray I understand that, but why do we have to keep looking at this as an excuse for THIS SEASON. That was 2005, we are now in 2006... and I thought we had a horror year last year due to injuries? :confused: We have our list back and have actually been blessed, injury-wise, this year. So there has to be a reason why this list isn't a top 4. Last year ain't a good excuse.
So you don't think going from 15th to 7th is an improvement.
Did you really think we were going to win the flag, playing 5 or 6 teenagers.
What world do you live in?
Madd Matt
14 Aug 2006, 10:33
So you don't think going from 15th to 7th is an improvement.
Did you really think we were going to win the flag, playing 5 or 6 teenagers.
What world do you live in?
Muzz, here's a question:
Next year, if Essendon have the same year as we are having this year (ie. full list early, start with a bang, fade out dramatically), do you think their supporters will be saying "but we were 15th last year".
No, they'll be saying "What's the bloody problem down at Windy Hill?" And that's the difference.
I agree that we've blooded kids this year (Thomas, Pendles, Iles) and given more game time to second year kids (Shaw, C3, Egan), but apart from that, we've had 16 senior, experienced, professional MEN, that are all (as far as we are told) physically fit, so there is NO excuse.
We had the excuse for the five weeks after the Brisbane win when we went 1-4 that we'd lost four/five players in the one week, and couldn't cover them all straight away. To beat WC showed character, and then to be 56 points up on Hawthorn at half time made us all believe that we were once again at full strength. The wheels fell off from there. We played VERY poorly in the second half of the Hawthorn game (probably already thinking about Adelaide), and then kicked like cr@p against the Crows, again, and should have won. We played the same 'brand' of footy again on Friday night, and this time Essendon properly took advantage. Once again, we managed to draw level, and who knows, maybe they expected that the Bummers would lie down for us because they were last, but it was a mentally weak finish to an important game, made more important by the opponent. Standings aside, Essendon had been playing "good" football, however you'd think making the top four would give you a bit more determination than "beating Collingwood". Of course, "beating Collingwood" is the most powerful motivator in footy, unfortunately. :(
Last year we were 'lucky' to say "injuries are why we finished 15th". And that's fine, but you can't then use the excuse "but we finished 15th last year" to justify a form slump late in the next season.
Muzz, here's a question:
Next year, if Essendon have the same year as we are having this year (ie. full list early, start with a bang, fade out dramatically), do you think their supporters will be saying "but we were 15th last year".
No, they'll be saying "What's the bloody problem down at Windy Hill?" And that's the difference.
I agree that we've blooded kids this year (Thomas, Pendles, Iles) and given more game time to second year kids (Shaw, C3, Egan), but apart from that, we've had 16 senior, experienced, professional MEN, that are all (as far as we are told) physically fit, so there is NO excuse.
We had the excuse for the five weeks after the Brisbane win when we went 1-4 that we'd lost four/five players in the one week, and couldn't cover them all straight away. To beat WC showed character, and then to be 56 points up on Hawthorn at half time made us all believe that we were once again at full strength. The wheels fell off from there. We played VERY poorly in the second half of the Hawthorn game (probably already thinking about Adelaide), and then kicked like cr@p against the Crows, again, and should have won. We played the same 'brand' of footy again on Friday night, and this time Essendon properly took advantage. Once again, we managed to draw level, and who knows, maybe they expected that the Bummers would lie down for us because they were last, but it was a mentally weak finish to an important game, made more important by the opponent. Standings aside, Essendon had been playing "good" football, however you'd think making the top four would give you a bit more determination than "beating Collingwood". Of course, "beating Collingwood" is the most powerful motivator in footy, unfortunately. :(
Last year we were 'lucky' to say "injuries are why we finished 15th". And that's fine, but you can't then use the excuse "but we finished 15th last year" to justify a form slump late in the next season.
I disagree Matt.
As for what other teams say or don't say, I don't really care.
My point is with Travis, Egan, Iles, Thomas, Rusling, Pendlebury all teenagers and with Heath just finding his feet, that is one third of the team inexperienced.
Kids will fluctuate.
Then put one or two senior players (Taz & Pebbles) playing 'out of form' and it is explainable.
That doesn't mean I am happy with it, but I am attempting to be realistic.
We were NEVER a chance this year.
However, if in 2007, we find ourselves at this time of the year, in a similar position then I will be joining those who are now calling for heads to roll.
But we were 15th last yearDue to injuries? That was your theory wasn’t it? What is the relevance of last year though? If we are assessing MM then either 15th was due to injuries as per the excuses he and Eddie made at the AGM after saying they “don’t use injuries as an excuse but” or 15th = abject failure. If injuries are the reason then why isn’t a lack of injuries a valid devaluation of the 2002/3 “success”? If a low injury count this year sees us around 6th what does that mean? Where would we be with 2 more injuries over the year?
If 15th to 7th is a good gain then how bad is 2nd and 2nd to 13th and 15th? 7 years into MM 5th to 7th means failure. I really don’t see any other interpretation but I’d be happy to hear yours or anyone’s. Whatever has taken place before, the reality of today is we are struggling to play in the finals yet we have had fantastic best draft picks. We should have a super list.
Due to injuries? That was your theory wasn’t it? What is the relevance of last year though? If we are assessing MM then either 15th was due to injuries as per the excuses he and Eddie made at the AGM after saying they “don’t use injuries as an excuse but” or 15th = abject failure. If injuries are the reason then why isn’t a lack of injuries a valid devaluation of the 2002/3 “success”? If a low injury count this year sees us around 6th what does that mean? Where would we be with 2 more injuries over the year?
If 15th to 7th is a good gain then how bad is 2nd and 2nd to 13th and 15th? 7 years into MM 5th to 7th means failure. I really don’t see any other interpretation but I’d be happy to hear yours or anyone’s. Whatever has taken place before, the reality of today is we are struggling to play in the finals yet we have had fantastic best draft picks. We should have a super list.
It's all Eddies fault :rolleyes:
No, it's all Micks fault :rolleyes:
No, no the sky is falling :rolleyes:
Timmy from Thomastown
14 Aug 2006, 13:56
He lost me when he failed to discipline Tarrant and Johnson correctly. He sent the wrong message at the wrong time. I'd not be unhappy to see him go at the end of the year.
It's all Eddies fault :rolleyes:
No, it's all Micks fault :rolleyes:
No, no the sky is falling :rolleyes:IMO Eddie should have sacked MM last year instead he extended his contract. To some extent it is Eddie’s fault. He appointed MM and he wouldn’t sack him. He ordered the complete football department review and exempted a failed coach from the process. The coach was the reason for many of the problems because the problems relate most of all to the list that was exposed badly by the injuries and which failed to win 2 grand finals under the coach who put it together. I am generally an Eddie fan in case you couldn’t tell over the years of my posting. He has done an unbelievable job of resurrecting our club. MM has failed. You can call me Chicken Little if you like but can you please tell me how MM has not failed let alone how he might under any analysis have been a success?
What I really don’t understand is how so many Collingwood supporters stick up for a coach that has failed so obviously. He has been there longer than Hafey and he got sacked after 5 grand finals in 5 years including the draw. Stability is all well and good but mediocrity is not and that is where we are currently. The record is there for all to see. 2 finals series and a thin list about to be in need or serous work on every line. That after something like picks 1/3/19 in 1999, 3/19 in 2000, 7 in 2004, 1/5/21 in 2005. That’s ignoring early PSD and early rookie selections in those years. How much more do you need?
If I am Chicken Little are you Ossie Ostrich?
PieLebo87
14 Aug 2006, 16:39
Murray you always make valid points but in this instance, I must disagree with you, even if you arent completely wrong. OF COURSE jumping up 8-9 positions in one season is a major improvement for any club. But in this situation, in the situation Collingwood is in in 2006. We are aiming for a Premiership, I dont care what MM or anyone says, we were aiming at winning the Premiership this year because of it being such an open season with any of the top 7-8 teams capable of running away with it.
One thing that has to be understood is that a Nathan Buckley, an Anthony Rocca, a James Clement and a Simon Prestigiacomo are more valuable at the latter stages of their careers are better players then the likes of Chris Tarrant, Shane O'Bree, Brodie Holland ect. It is a major risk if we're going to rely on them for experience in a few years because the top group is our greatest ever captain, one of the greatest defenders Collingwood has had in decades and a very influencial full-back and full-forward/CHF. They say there needs to be a good blend of youth and experienced players to win a Prem. I think that the current blend is a perfect mix for a Premiership and because we are performing so badly THAT is why so many supporters are creating an uproar, because time is running out for the likes of Buckley, Clement, Presti ect. These players are the backbone of this team and in a few years they wont be there. THATS why we are failing if we dont win a Premiership within the next 19 months. Even if the real talent is 4-5 years away. That isnt something I wanna place my money on, as much as I love Collingwood, I dont want to have to rely on something 4-5 years away. Ive learnt it WAY TOO MUCH, potential is a very ugly word in football.
Hadders
14 Aug 2006, 18:17
Gotta say I'm with Murray on this one.
If you had have asked any Collingwood supporter at the beginning of this year that we'd have a shot at the top 4 with 3 rounds to go, they would have called you an idiot. What makes it seem bad all of a sudden is the fact that our expectations were given a massive boost because of our early season form. Now that it looks like our early form wasn't a true reflection it makes our current situation seem much worse.
If we hadn't have flown out of the gates at the start of the season and had slowly built up momentum to get into the same position we are now, we'd all be laughing and threads like this would be praising the genius that is Mick Malthouse. It's all about perception.
PieLebo87
14 Aug 2006, 20:36
Gotta say I'm with Murray on this one.
If you had have asked any Collingwood supporter at the beginning of this year that we'd have a shot at the top 4 with 3 rounds to go, they would have called you an idiot
Thats where YOU'RE wrong, I saw it ALL pre-season, I read every article, I saw everything that had to do with Collingwood and I KNEW we'd challenge for the Premiership this year because we had the list... Thomas, Pendles, Shaw ect are bonuses I didnt see. But if you are a true Collingwood supporter who understands football, you would've had a slight thought that Collingwood was a chance to win the Premiership this year. I sure did...
The list management issues seem to be somewhat improving over the past few years. It was an obvious problem at the start of his reign but looks to have improved since then...
My main issue with him now is that our team seems very one dimensional. We never seem to have a plan b, and he never seems to be able to pull off the "moves" that can change a game.
Usually when we start behind, we stay behind. When was the last time we showed spirit and came from behind to win, or even push it to the limits? (and please no one bring up essendon as that was just an absolute disgrace)
We always seem to play the same game, and when someone counters that we lose. When someone plays tough accountable footy and hard at the ball, we lose.
Malthouse doesnt seem to have too many tricks up his sleeves these days, thats my main concern...
If you had have asked any Collingwood supporter at the beginning of this year that we'd have a shot at the top 4 with 3 rounds to go, they would have called you an idiot.Would they be the same people blaming injuries for our fall from second in 2002 and 2003?It's all about perception.On the contrary. It is all about results.
My main issue with him now is that our team seems very one dimensional. We never seem to have a plan b, and he never seems to be able to pull off the "moves" that can change a game.We have never had a plan B. It has been discussed forever on these mug punter sites. That is one reason I don’t think MM is a particularly good coach. How often have we pulled a game out of the fire over 7 years?
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 11:52
Everyone is saying MM failed in regards to list management the first time and this time around he has gotten it right....
:confused:
How do we all know that it is alright this time? These players are all still jsut youngsters, they have shown glimpses, that doesnt mean they will be reliable 200 gamers. Everything everyone is saying about this team's list management is what we all said about the previous one that collapsed and failed. People, please dont get your hopes up too early and wait for results. I seriously hope Im wrong and these youngsters turn out to be stars of the game.
He hasn’t got the list management it right at all. Not even close. What has arguably happened is that we have used early picks better which is arguably as a result of Hine’s involvement but in reality the jury is out on that as well. Egan has shown glimpses but no more than that and Rusling looked promising last year but has stalled at best this year (possibly due to shoulder injuries). Picks 2 and 5 should get decent players. The problem is we set the benchmark at our previous results. The benchmark should be the best performed in the comp. We are not trying to be competitive and maybe make the odd grand final. We are trying to be the best and win premierships.
What has been good about our list management on an objective measure? The drafting ahs improved marginally but with better selections. The trading has continued to be a non event save for the odd poor result (we took Morison only the trade week before last). We still have a ruck and midfield deficiency and we still lack pace and overall footskills.
Hadders
15 Aug 2006, 12:58
Thats where YOU'RE wrong, I saw it ALL pre-season, I read every article, I saw everything that had to do with Collingwood and I KNEW we'd challenge for the Premiership this year because we had the list... Thomas, Pendles, Shaw ect are bonuses I didnt see. But if you are a true Collingwood supporter who understands football, you would've had a slight thought that Collingwood was a chance to win the Premiership this year. I sure did...
but if you try and look at it objectively we're not really challenging for the premiership at the moment. I hope just as much as anybody that we can manage to pinch the premiership this year but looking at it realistically we're behind a lot of other teams at the moment.
You might have foreseen our meteroic rise up the ladder but I'm pretty sure that you would have been in the optimistic minority of collingwood supporters.
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 13:08
but if you try and look at it objectively we're not really challenging for the premiership at the moment. I hope just as much as anybody that we can manage to pinch the premiership this year but looking at it realistically we're behind a lot of other teams at the moment.
You might have foreseen our meteroic rise up the ladder but I'm pretty sure that you would have been in the optimistic minority of collingwood supporters.
True, and it isnt too late to change that form around. A week is a long time in football. Had we beaten Adelaide at AAMI, we would've probably been one of the favourites to win the Premiership this year, you know thats true. It takes just 4 quarters of football to decide a teams fate. Sadly, big wins in the remaining 3 rounds wont make anyone think any higher of Collingwood because we're playing bottom sides but even one big win in the first final would change everything. I still believe we are as much of a chance to win the Premiership as any of the top 8. Bulldogs have as much of a chance as Adelaide/WCE and they're in 8th, football is just too unpredictable.
Hadders
15 Aug 2006, 13:16
Would they be the same people blaming injuries for our fall from second in 2002 and 2003?On the contrary. It is all about results.
while most supporters would acknowledge that injuries played a part in exaggerting our fall from 2nd to 13th to 15th in two years, only the most deluded supporter would blame this as the sole problem.
but by the same account the fall can't be just blamed on the coaching/recruiting. it's a whole lot of contributing factors. in 2002/3 we were lucky on some accounts. in 2002 we made the top 4 with 13 wins. this year if we finish on 13 there's a fair chance that we won't be in the top 4.
It's pretty well regarded that in 2002/3 we weren't a "great" team. we had a lot of players who were performing above themselves (mckee, freeborn, j.cloke etc.) but what got them to the GF was the coaching.
Look I agree that the recruiting could have been better but I don't think all the blame can be laid at the feet of Malthouse. While results haven't been consistently as good as we would have liked, this year has been a vast improvement over the last two and it looks like the future will get even better.
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 13:26
Look I agree that the recruiting could have been better but I don't think all the blame can be laid at the feet of Malthouse. While results haven't been consistently as good as we would have liked, this year has been a vast improvement over the last two and it looks like the future will get even better.
The only way that we will get better, ISNT JUST the development of the youngsters, but also the improvement and maturity of the Chris Tarrants, Ryan Lonies, Brodie Hollands, Shane O'Bree ect. These guys have to be quality 28-29yos ect. Youngsters cant stand up and win Premierships without that blend of good experience. THATS why I believe its safer to go for a Premiership this year and the next, because the likes of Clement, Buckley, Rocca & Presti are the backbone of this team... the players I named above them, I cant see holding up a Collingwood team if the younger players dont perform, I hope I made sense.