The Pre-finals Training Flogging- Is it worth it?

[SpringChoke]

I know it worked for us in our premiership years but you could argue the pace of the game has changed in 8 years. The aerobic capacity of the players has also increased. So with that in mind do we need to revise our whole training regime heading into finals from 2007 onwards.

In 2003 we were sitting 2nd at about rnd 17 ( from memory ) and then fell in a bundle to finish outside the top 4. Last year I thought we looked flat in the first final against The Saints.

Our recent form over the last 3 weeks has been average and if we drop any of the remaining 3 games we could finish 2nd. Which could mean we could very well end up facing a finals hardened Sydney in the first week of September. Now if this dramatic form slump can be attributed to the extra training load then maybe we need to rethink our whole approach to finals.

Thoughts.

[- PC -]

I was listening to Brad Hardley and his 6pr gangstas and ''SmokeMe Dawson '' was saying he was talking to a journo who was talking to a Crows player :rolleyes: and the Crow player said he falls asleep before the game he is that exhausted.

Whether that is true or not I would hope that the base level of fitness is high enough that we can now pull the handbrake and work on startegies and plans etc.

Injured players need to be nursed back and they can continue training at a higher level to attain the fitness levels required.

[RogerRabbit69]

Well, ultimately, it'll be judged by the Crows' efforts over the next month or so. If they're looking fresh as a daisy and finishing strongly, losses like today's won't hurt nearly as much.

If they're not looking a touch more spritely over the next couple of weeks, I'd start to be a touch worried. I'm not yet.

[macca23]

As I posted else-where


This statement can't be taken lightly.

If this is what's coming consistently in future, we won't make the preliminary final, let alone get past it. We looked a very ordinary side today.

Let me throw this one into the ring.

Prior to Craig ramping up the work-load in the past month, we were unstoppable. Our football was irresistible. We were running out games like stayers, so did we need the extra work-load??

What the extra work-load has produced to date is a loss of form, 2 losses and 4 key players breaking down with ham-string injuries.

Has Craig pulled the wrong rein, by tampering with a winning formula??

Will we re-discover the white-hot form we were in prior to a month ago??

Or has there been such a loss of confidence and self-belief, that we will go out meekly in straight sets??

The next 3 minor round games will tell us a lot about the answers to these questions.

[DaveW]

In 2003 we were sitting 2nd at about rnd 17 ( from memory ) and then fell in a bundle to finish outside the top 4.
We were sitting second after 19 rounds. A position we held onto despite losing in round 20. Another loss saw us fall out of the top two. And a third consecutive loss saw us drop out of the top four.

[Stiffy_18]

I think the theory of training in this period does have some real merit. Form slum was expected with the increased workload on the training track and on the bikes.

However, its a fine line pushing it to the limit and going over the limit. The soft tissue injuries are a concern. The biggest one of those is Burton as he is one player we could least afford to lose. As it stands we have lost him for the game. My fear was that it was more than just a normal hammy because of the way he left the ground. He was carried off like when Goody did his groin in 2004.

McGregor, Biglands, Hart etc... those hamstrings are not too serious as long as they are fit and firing by first week in september. Time will tell if this increase in training was needed.

I sense there is a lot of concern about the way we are playing ATM. A lot of it has to do with the floggings on the training track but my concern is not about the way we are losing or just winning. My main concern is midfield, and has been for the last couple of months. I can't remember the last game where we won the midfield battle convincingly. We managed to win the games despite getting smashed around stoppages because we played some ordinary sides.

However, when we came up against good sides with good midfields like West Coast, Freo and Collingwood, we have either lost or have struggled to a win. Our midfield has been ordinary and will continue to be ordinary until Roo and possibly McLeod can spend more time in there. There just isn't enough quality or consistency there that can take us all the way against really good sides like WC. Thats is my one and only concern. Losing or winning at this stage doesn't matter to me as long as we are doing something to address this weakness.

Oh and our forward line entry has been ****house for a month now.

[crows98]

I think the theory of training in this period does have some real merit. Form slum was expected with the increased workload on the training track and on the bikes.

However, its a fine line pushing it to the limit and going over the limit. The soft tissue injuries are a concern. The biggest one of those is Burton as he is one player we could least afford to lose. As it stands we have lost him for the game. My fear was that it was more than just a normal hammy because of the way he left the ground. He was carried off like when Goody did his groin in 2004.

McGregor, Biglands, Hart etc... those hamstrings are not too serious as long as they are fit and firing by first week in september. Time will tell if this increase in training was needed.

I sense there is a lot of concern about the way we are playing ATM. A lot of it has to do with the floggings on the training track but my concern is not about the way we are losing or just winning. My main concern is midfield, and has been for the last couple of months. I can't remember the last game where we won the midfield battle convincingly. We managed to win the games despite getting smashed around stoppages because we played some ordinary sides.

However, when we came up against good sides with good midfields like West Coast, Freo and Collingwood, we have either lost or have struggled to a win. Our midfield has been ordinary and will continue to be ordinary until Roo and possibly McLeod can spend more time in there. There just isn't enough quality or consistency there that can take us all the way against really good sides like WC. Thats is my one and only concern. Losing or winning at this stage doesn't matter to me as long as we are doing something to address this weakness.

Oh and our forward line entry has been ****house for a month now.


But isn’t this the transition faze Neil Craig has been talking about for 2 year now; the back bone group has to stand up and improve in this area and take some of the responsibility of the Goodwin’s, Edwards, Ricciuto and McLeod’s. If we are still relying on Mark Ricciuto and Andrew Mcleod as out primary ball winners and ball movers, we are going to be in a lot of trouble in 12 – 18 months time.

If player like Doughty, Massie, Reilly, Thompson and Mattner are the leaders of the back bone midfield group and they are not showing signs of getting the job done; why are they still looked upon as the future of this football club?

If they are not good enough, it time to move on and find some player that are?

[Macca19]

The fitness loading isnt new, as Springy said. Id say all finals sides do this and have done every year for a long time. Port definately did it. Port also had a lot of injuries at the end of seasons in 2002 and 2003 but kept winning (though looked lethargic). Now with you there has been a sudden outbreak of soft tissue injuries and have looked lethargic. Related? Maybe.

Something I mentioned on the main board which may or may not have any relevance:

During your eight game dominant streak you only played 2 sides that were in the top 8 at that stage (6th and 8th). The other teams were 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th and 11th. You played the bottom 6 sides on the ladder.

Now yes it was one of the most dominant stages of any club i have seen, but have the media and possibly supporters overlooked the fact that the opposition you were playing in 6 of those 8 weeks were quite poor. Yes you can only play who you are scheduled to play, but in the last three weeks you have faced three top 8 sides for 2 losses and a victory by a kick.

Now is the sudden 'drop in form' related to over training, or is it related to you actually playing decent sides now? I think its probably a bit of both.

[King Elvis]

Don't forget to mention that until WCE we'd won most games by a huge margin, and the two we lost were by under a goal.

[snakebite01]

The fitness loading isnt new, as Springy said. Id say all finals sides do this and have done every year for a long time. Port definately did it. Port also had a lot of injuries at the end of seasons in 2002 and 2003 but kept winning (though looked lethargic). Now with you there has been a sudden outbreak of soft tissue injuries and have looked lethargic. Related? Maybe.

Something I mentioned on the main board which may or may not have any relevance:

During your eight game dominant streak you only played 2 sides that were in the top 8 at that stage (6th and 8th). The other teams were 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th and 11th. You played the bottom 6 sides on the ladder.

Now yes it was one of the most dominant stages of any club i have seen, but have the media and possibly supporters overlooked the fact that the opposition you were playing in 6 of those 8 weeks were quite poor. Yes you can only play who you are scheduled to play, but in the last three weeks you have faced three top 8 sides for 2 losses and a victory by a kick.

Now is the sudden 'drop in form' related to over training, or is it related to you actually playing decent sides now? I think its probably a bit of both.

I don't think so. I'm guessing the 2 sides in the 8 were Sydney and St Kilda, who we thrashed both of away from home. They are not really 6 and 8 sides, they are both top 4 sides. To beat them by 7 and 10 goals respectively on their own home grounds is a great achievement. But it is true that the other sides were pretty weak.

I was going to post the exact same thing macca23 did.

When we were travelling so well, why the need to increase the training load? We were playing irresistable footy, why tamper with it?

I'm not going to criticise just yet, because I think there are a lot of factors contributing to our form slump (extra training load, a few injuries, top 2 spot sewn up, nothing else to prove in the H%A season etc). I will wait until after our first final to pass judgement on whether the extra training load has been beneficial, but I can tell you Craigy will have a bit to answer for if it doesn't improve us, because we were absolutely flying before it.

The other concern is the hamstring injuries. Obviously they'd know that cycling will be predominantly working the hamstrings and therefore they will be overly tight. Why aren't we doing prolonged stretching exercises? If we are, then they're obviously not doing them for long enough.

[- PC -]

If player like Doughty, Massie, Reilly, Thompson and Mattner are the leaders of the back bone midfield group and they are not showing signs of getting the job done; why are they still looked upon as the future of this football club?
And this is the catch 22 facing the AFC. Play this B team in the middle and people call for Roo and McLeod to come back in. What can NC do to please People?


Doughty- showing more promise as he gets more responsibilty

Massie- similar to Doughty

Reilly- Gonna call him coca cola ..like the yoyos I had at school hes up and down

Thompson- I actually am happy with a new attitude from ST. Still not sure of his place yet but getting there

Mattner- I believe NC has a specific role for MM this year and will move him into a midfield role next year

[Glenno23]

I hope its worth it, if we are holding the cup on the last day in September, then yes, its worth it, if we are not, then we have let a massive chance go past.

Crows98 said we need to develop are 2nd tier midfielders, but being as well positioned for a tilt at the flag (narring injuries) as we are, i think its time to put the cream back in the middle. Other coaches would not be expecting a Roo or a Macca in the midfield.

Maybe Craig is holding some aces up his sleeve, seeing as we only need to win 1 game for the top 2 spot to be confirmed (if it isn't already with our %) and will be throwing some of the more experienced guys into the middle come the QF.....

[SpringChoke]

During your eight game dominant streak you only played 2 sides that were in the top 8 at that stage (6th and 8th). The other teams were 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th and 11th. You played the bottom 6 sides on the ladder.



I did the same search Mac and I too was suprised by the results. All the people who thought we were a walk up start for the GF or that we would win our first final by 10 goals obviously know nothing about footy.

[jc67]

I did the same search Mac and I too was suprised by the results. All the people who thought we were a walk up start for the GF or that we would win our first final by 10 goals obviously know nothing about footy.
Probably right, but you should wait until it happens before those sort of calls;)

[marvin]

First or second is largely immaterial. Barring some freaky results, we've got a top 2 spot wrapped up now, and have had for a few weeks in reality.

As I see it, our season is in 2 parts. First, getting in to the finals in the top 2 - achieved. Second, doing as well as possible in the finals.

Who's to say that we aren't working on finals strategy as much as fitness in these sessions? And why should we reveal it now?

The proof will be in the pudding.

[Crow-mo]

First or second is largely immaterial. Barring some freaky results, we've got a top 2 spot wrapped up now, and have had for a few weeks in reality.

As I see it, our season is in 2 parts. First, getting in to the finals in the top 2 - achieved. Second, doing as well as possible in the finals.

Who's to say that we aren't working on finals strategy as much as fitness in these sessions? And why should we reveal it now?

The proof will be in the pudding.

yep.

we win our first final, and all this will be forgotten. we lose it, and then it will be brought up for months.

[The Crows Truth]

First or second is largely immaterial. Barring some freaky results, we've got a top 2 spot wrapped up now, and have had for a few weeks in reality.

As I see it, our season is in 2 parts. First, getting in to the finals in the top 2 - achieved. Second, doing as well as possible in the finals.

Who's to say that we aren't working on finals strategy as much as fitness in these sessions? And why should we reveal it now?

The proof will be in the pudding.

my concern with the extra training relates to the increased injuries and their consequent impact - not dropping games now (esp with a top 2 possie locked in). we really need to nail that first final in a few wks time. The extra wk off will be a major benefit to our team

[snakebite01]

yep.

we win our first final, and all this will be forgotten. we lose it, and then it will be brought up for months.

That's exactly it.

I'm reserving judgment (criticism) until we've played (and hopefully won) our first final. However, if we happen to slip up in that then Craig and the coaching staff will have some answering for.

[crows98]

That's exactly it.

I'm reserving judgment (criticism) until we've played (and hopefully won) our first final. However, if we happen to slip up in that then Craig and the coaching staff will have some answering for.

As apposed to the players who get out on the ground and win the contest.

[- PC -]

That's exactly it.

I'm reserving judgment (criticism) until we've played (and hopefully won) our first final. However, if we happen to slip up in that then Craig and the coaching staff will have some answering for.
So it seems you have made your mind up already. Lets see what happens first...it may take a team playing awesome footy to beat us ...is that the coaches fault?

[snakebite01]

As apposed to the players who get out on the ground and win the contest.

If we don't win our first final, then this pre-finals extra training leading to more injuries, a loss of form, possibly a loss of confidence and a loss of general team structure will have been a failure - and considering we were travelling a lot better before this extra training, I think the coaches will have something to answer for if it doesn't help us at all.

If it goes on to help us in finals that is great, hence why I'm not blasting anyone until we start playing meaningful games again.

But you can't just always blame the players. This program we are undergoing isn't just for sh*ts and giggles. It's meant to improve our performance in finals at the risk of affecting our current performances which don't really matter. But if it doesn't improve us in September, then there was no point in it, and IMO it would have done more harm than good (as evidenced by drop off in form, injuries etc), for which the coaching staff must take the blame.

[snakebite01]

So it seems you have made your mind up already. Lets see what happens first...it may take a team playing awesome footy to beat us ...is that the coaches fault?

I haven't made up my mind. I'm confident that Craig knows what he's doing a lot more than any of us do and I'm confident we can still go on and be there on 30/9.

It's just IF we don't win our first final, then this exercise will have been a waste of time because it has affected a lot of current factors (loss of form, injuries, best team not playing together, players losing confidence) which may or may not carry over into September. If they do, then the coaching staff must take a significant portion of the blame IMO.

[Mad Dog]

After listening to Schwerdty on the radio yesterday - the extra workload isn't really that much of a big deal....:confused:

[RogerRabbit69]

I've heard all the players and staff have been specifically directed to downplay the whole "tapering" and "hard training" thing.

[Carl Spackler]

After listening to Schwerdty on the radio yesterday - the extra workload isn't really that much of a big deal....:confused:

The heavy training period has had a bit of smoke and mirrors about it. When players are interviewed there has generally been a lack of consistency about when it started, when it will finish and what it entails.

I wonder how much is mind over matter? Craig has said that we are trying some new things at training and we may see some errors initially. And it is widely considered that our extra training will take the edge off for a few weeks. Both of these things have happened. A self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps?

[PrideofSA]

The extra training load definitely works.

Look at any sport and they do the same. The only problem facing the AFC is the fact that in other sports like athletics, swimming, cycling etc. They go through a hard phase of JUST training hard. They aren't in competetion. Then they start to taper off as they start entering into competition and get race/match fit for a few weeks leading into their "peak" performance with only very light training at this time.

The problem the AFC faces is the fact that they still have to front up and play a match every week. This and the fact that it's a very physical sport puts enormous stress on the body. The body is already weaker due to excess training load and getting a few bumps and and knocks while the body is absolutely overloaded makes it very injury prone.

As long as the injuries don't take too much of a toll, AFC once they freshen up will be a lot fitter, fresher, and sharper. This will also eliminate the errors due to fatigue. This will also make the team mentally ready knowing they are very fresh and can run out a game with ease.

For the AFC to win the premiership they need to not worry too much about matches now. They know they will be fit. They need to minimise any further injury and really try and get the best team on the park, get the game plan and the structures right. This will be the main difference between us winning a premiership or not. Fitness won't be the issue.

[james4954]

The extra load has really hurt our run, IMO, which was our greatest asset early in the season. The midfielders and running defenders really need to be fresh to be effective with our game plan.

I'll be interested to see how things change now that those players have started to taper off. There were glimpses on Saturday but I think the overuse of "tempo" footy indicates a lot of the players are still feeling the pinch. If all goes to plan, we should improve with each week from here on in and be cherry ripe for September.

[McLeod23]

I'll put myself out there and say I am a little worried.

It is definitely a valid point that we were doing fine up until the Eagles match, which appears to be just after we began the loading up of training.

I think we have put a lot of miles into our guys during the weeks between games, despite the general down playing and dismissal of any great impact by coaches and the playing group.

The fact is we are still going to finish top two, and if we win two home finals we are in the Grand Final and have a great chance at taking the flag.

My concern is our current form, and the injuries we have picked up over the past month, especially when you consider that we hardly had any injuries from after Perrie did his knee until the training increase kicked in.

Confidence and momentum is a massive thing in footy. We have lost those two things at the moment, and we need to get them back before September.

Burton's loss hurts deep, as he is an ace in the pack. I still believe we can win the flag however, and I think we will.

Getting Bassett back will help a lot. Having Johncock, Bassett and McLeod in our team together is almost our best asset IMHO, in terms of the run and drive they give from the backline, which essentially is the key to our game plan.

I was at the Bulldogs game and it seemed as though we were never comfortable and in control, even when we were six goals up. Earlier in the season we would have maintained control of the game and pushed our lead further.

It will be interesting to see how, and indeed if, Perrie slots back into the team. We have quite a few talls available again, including McGregor to come back in. Craig seems very keen on keeping Stevens in the line-up, so a couple of tough calls will need to be made.

I would love to know who makes up Craig's First XXII assuming everyone is fit.

Sorry for being all over the place, just throwing out my thoughts.

[Vader]

I think a lot of it might have to do with the high rate of turnover, combined with underdone players returning to the side.

For the past two weeks we've had 4 changes to the side - that's a high turnover in anyone's language. Teams play better when they are settled. From R6-R15 Adelaide had no more than two changes per week.

Ben Hart and Nathan Van Berlo came straight back into the side after lengthy injury breaks (around 8 weeks each). Hart in particular has been disappointing since his return - probably playing on a Gold Pass. Both players should probably have come back via the SANFL.

I think there have been many factors why Adelaide have been disappointing recently - the training flogging is only one such factor.