View Full Version : Ruckmen Problems
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 12:08
Do we get the best young ruckman in the draft (4-5 years to develop, maybe more)
OR
Swap for a 20-21 year old 'developed' ruckman [ie. Meesan] who will be ready in 1-2-3 years?
Do we want a Premiership in 4-5-6 years? Or in the next 2-3?
Timmy from Thomastown
15 Aug 2006, 12:18
Trade for a ruckman (Darren Jolly's the perfect example of decent rucks who are out there if you look hard enough) and draft a tall defender who may be able to pinch hit in the ruck.
Jack-Packenham
15 Aug 2006, 13:09
With an aging list it may be time to throw everything at the next 2 years. Give up your first 2 picks for Everitt and Aker and hope you can win a flag.
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 13:11
With an aging list it may be time to throw everything at the next 2 years. Give up your first 2 picks for Everitt and Aker and hope you can win a flag.
Over the majority of bodies of Collingwood supporters would we want a has-been such as Everitt. Definitely Aker, but we want a ruckman over the age of 20 but under the age of 25. Our next 5 to 10 years will be big and we need the best for those years.
Jack-Packenham
15 Aug 2006, 13:16
Over the majority of bodies of Collingwood supporters would we want a has-been such as Everitt. Definitely Aker, but we want a ruckman over the age of 20 but under the age of 25. Our next 5 to 10 years will be big and we need the best for those years.
Hope you finish under Bulldogs and St Kilda and draft Leuenberger. If not trade your first pick or Chris Tarrant for Meesen. However it may be too late for Buckley and Rocca if you wait for these guys to develop.
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 13:22
Hope you finish under Bulldogs and St Kilda and draft Leuenberger. If not trade your first pick or Chris Tarrant for Meesen. However it may be too late for Buckley and Rocca if you wait for these guys to develop.
Thats why theres a hope that maybe Meesen can be a Jolly-type player if we get him. A Leuenberger is such a long prospect and it is never even a certain that the players picked will definitely be star ruckmen. I guess Meesen is the best option, but who knows, anything can come up within the next few months.
We just gotta decide whats the best option, ready-made ruckman or draft pick ruckman....
Hadders
15 Aug 2006, 13:25
Thats why theres a hope that maybe Meesen can be a Jolly-type player if we get him. A Leuenberger is such a long prospect and it is never even a certain that the players picked will definitely be star ruckmen. I guess Meesen is the best option, but who knows, anything can come up within the next few months.
We just gotta decide whats the best option, ready-made ruckman or draft pick ruckman....
Is Meesen really a 'ready-made' ruckman? As I understand there would still be an element of risk in drafting Meesen as he's showed promise but he still has a lot of developing to do before he can cut it at AFL level.
Don't give up too much for Meesen. I'd rather take a punt in the draft than give up the world for a guy that may or may not work out.
PieLebo87
15 Aug 2006, 13:30
Is Meesen really a 'ready-made' ruckman? As I understand there would still be an element of risk in drafting Meesen as he's showed promise but he still has a lot of developing to do before he can cut it at AFL level.
Don't give up too much for Meesen. I'd rather take a punt in the draft than give up the world for a guy that may or may not work out.
Whatevers the safer bet I guess. I see Meesen as a safer bet, if this Le********** guy is such a good prospect ruckman, you'd think he would be picked up in the top 10. How old is Meesen anyway? What has he done so far in Adelaide? (Keep in mine they have Clarke, Biglands ect.)
I would rather go for Biglands than Meesen. It is just too hard to know with ruckmen. A player I would go after heavily is Robby Campbell as he can play back and in the ruck. But with Everitt looking to leave they won't give him up and even if they did we would pay way over the odds.
if this Le********** guy is such a good prospect ruckman, you'd think he would be picked up in the top 10.
The reports are that this draft is one of the best ever and every player in the top 20 would make last years top 10 (last year was deep but didn't have alot of certain top 10 picks). Add to that teams don't like spending their first pick on a ruckman.
Jack-Packenham
15 Aug 2006, 14:51
Whatevers the safer bet I guess. I see Meesen as a safer bet, if this Le********** guy is such a good prospect ruckman, you'd think he would be picked up in the top 10. How old is Meesen anyway? What has he done so far in Adelaide? (Keep in mine they have Clarke, Biglands ect.)
Meesen was drafted no.8 in the 2004 national draft. So this is hes second season. Has Clarke, HUdson, Biglands and Maric to compete with at the crows.
With an aging list it may be time to throw everything at the next 2 years. Give up your first 2 picks for Everitt and Aker and hope you can win a flag.I would take them but it’s all about price. At their age if someone is prepared to give up first and second round picks then good luck to them. 3 years ago no problem but not now. As far as Aka is concerned Brisbane need to find a club to pick up his salary. We should have the cap room so that might put us in the running for a cheap trade. Everitt would probably go for more than his worth. I have my doubts that he ahs much left in the tank. He is a classy tap ruckman at his best but I haven’t seen much of it for a fair while. Josh has given him a few touch ups which is a concern.
Luenburger (sp?) from reports looks the goods
Lonie_from_50
15 Aug 2006, 20:02
We need a developed ruckman who can step in straight away. Cam Cloke isn't the best ruckman, or player for that matter and is on a rope. Walker is a part-timer but will definately be delisted, same things go for Hall. Richards can maintain a ruck spot because he is developed, but has a curse and looks like he may go aswell depending if it is an allout system this year.
We need a back up ruckman who can come off the bench and be capable of slotting into a best 22 spot.
We need a developed ruckman who can step in straight away. Cam Cloke isn't the best ruckman, or player for that matter and is on a rope. Walker is a part-timer but will definately be delisted, same things go for Hall. Richards can maintain a ruck spot because he is developed, but has a curse and looks like he may go aswell depending if it is an allout system this year.
We need a back up ruckman who can come off the bench and be capable of slotting into a best 22 spot.
But no club is going to offer up a promising young ruckman just because we need one.
They will want quality in return.
Which quality (not some second stringer) are you prepared to trade?
It will need to be someone from our best 22 - makes it harder, doesn't it?
gezza78
15 Aug 2006, 20:32
Gotta go for a more mature Ruckman rather than selecting one in the national draft.
I know we have had way too many West Coast rejects but would a 27 year old Michael Gardiner be worth a shot??
I know he has had a chequered past off the field in recent times( Would fit in like a GLOVE @ Lexus Centre then :D ) & had injury worries but is he a chance,providing Eagles dont want too much for him?
I saw him play his first game back for Claremont in the WAFL a fortnight ago & he kicked 7 goals,was on fire!!
Maybe a 2nd round Pick may get him....
Lonie_from_50
15 Aug 2006, 20:35
Didn't exactly intend on trading for a ruckman Murray, because I know how valuable ruckman are to sides and trading week. That extra value for even a Fanning can be seen a mile away for sure. I was thinking, we can quite possibly draft an experienced ruckman in a non-AFL competition, ie SANFL, VFL, WAFL etc. rather than a young gun ruckman. Then again, it is quite possible we can draft a new ruckman, however, if it a major problem, then a 18 year old undeveloped ruckman isn't a quality choice when we need him straight away...Then again, i don't think it is CRITICAL, yet it all depends on the delisting situation. If a Richards is retained, it is unlikely a young star ruckman will be chosen with a first round, considering Josh and Guy still have years.
knackers27
15 Aug 2006, 20:37
Meesen + 4th Rounder for Tarrant.
Lonie_from_50
15 Aug 2006, 20:43
Meeson + 2nd Rounder for Tarrant + 4th Rounder looks nice.
Timmy from Thomastown
15 Aug 2006, 20:58
But no club is going to offer up a promising young ruckman just because we need one.
They will want quality in return.
out of interest what did Melbourne get for Jolly?
They got pick 14, or 16 I think.
Lonie_from_50
15 Aug 2006, 21:17
out of interest what did Melbourne get for Jolly?
Pick 15
(you were close Pedro ;))
Gardiner. Will be cheap. Has still got 'it' and can perform now. Plus we need a crash and bash ruckman who can soften the opposition for Fraser.
DJ Black @ White Blood
15 Aug 2006, 23:13
what about spider everett in the black and white stripes, i know we will only get a couple of years out of him but it buys us time. Hes not guarenteed sydney yet and wont be around the Hawks next year and hes cheap
PieLebo87
16 Aug 2006, 00:23
what about spider everett in the black and white stripes, i know we will only get a couple of years out of him but it buys us time. Hes not guarenteed sydney yet and wont be around the Hawks next year and hes cheap
I dont think his body will even make it through next year let alone a couple seasons.
vinnie_vegas69
16 Aug 2006, 00:43
Just looking quickly over the ruck divisions of different clubs:
Adelaide - A decent club to trade with, given that even with Clarke likely retiring, they still have Biglands, Hudson, Maric and Meesen. One would think that it would be possible to shake someone loose there, with Hudson and Meesen probably the most likely.
Brisbane - Probably won't get anything from them, as Charman is untouchable, McDonald is the backup, and Wood is the future. I'm assuming Keating is pondering retirement.
Carlton - Not likely, and not much to choose from anyway.
Essendon - Similar to Carlton.
Fremantle - Outside of Sandilands and the pinch hitting Longmuir, they're thin in this department themselves.
Geelong - Ottens and King are staying, and Blake is the only other tested ruckman on the list. Considering he's a 21 year old father-son selection, he's also staying.
Hawthorn - Unless we want to take a punt on Spida, there's nothing there. Honestly, I'd love us to make a play for Robert Campbell, but he's not the kind of player you see dealt very often.
Kangaroos - Really only have Hale and McIntosh, so are probably too thin to trade either. Hale seems untouchable, anyway.
Melbourne - Jamar is a possibility, but after letting Jolly go, and being stuck without a backup, I think they'll know better next time. Paul Johnson might be worth a look, as he has shown form at AFL level, but unfortunately has gone from one strong ruck department to another.
Port Adelaide - Lade is possibly the best ruckman in the league, so he's not going anywhere. However, they'll likely try to move Brogan, if they're confident that DeLuca or Minson could be a ruckman of the future. I don't know if we should go near him though.
Richmond - Simmonds is like Lade, but even with Stafford retiring, Knobel could find himself behind kids like Adam Pattison and Angus Graham. Knobel is a target if we want a ruckman.
St Kilda - Why bother looking? Their ruck division is actually weaker than ours (not counting Kosi, who's definitely not physical enough for the position)
Sydney - They have Jolly, who's not moving, Doyle, who's suffered injuries, and Chambers who isn't an AFL caliber ruckman. Not much there.
West Coast - I hope we don't look at Gardiner, and with him out, I'd say Seaby will stay alongside Cox.
Western - One wouldn't look for height that was for sale on Western's list.
If I had to make a list, I'd say our targets should be (in a rough order):
#1: John Meesen
#2: Trent Knobel
#3: Paul Johnson
#4: Spida Everitt
#5: Dean Brogan
#6: Michael Gardiner
out of interest what did Melbourne get for Jolly?
Not sure - was it a first rounder?
Edit: LF50 gave the answer
Gardiner. Will be cheap. Has still got 'it' and can perform now. Plus we need a crash and bash ruckman who can soften the opposition for Fraser.
Gardiners knees are stuffed, he can'r ruck at AFL level anymore
A bloke I've heard a bit about and saw on last night's news, is Ashley Eames from the Frankston Dolphins.
He's a 200cm ruckman, who is 27 years of age. He was a former strongman, World Wide of Sports style and decided to shed the excess poundage and play some footy two years ago.
The highlights of him showed enough to suggest he would be at worst a better second ruck than McKee ever was. He isn't a slug and is very strong.
Ignoring his age, his #1 deterrent would be that he was not picked up by Essendon after a pre-season there last year, but drafting 26 year olds who haven't played AFL is unheard of.
The strategy would be to draft the best available ruckman with our first or second pick depending on our rankings, and to draft a mature age ruckman like Eames later on.
Richards will be delisted. No doubt. Fanning is about a 2% chance of making it as an AFL ruckman. Cam is permanently injured in the shoulder and isn't a genuine ruck option anyway. We're in real trouble and need to think laterally and actually draft a ruckman who is not a ****en string bean!!
I'd kill for us to pick up Luenberger.
A bloke I've heard a bit about and saw on last night's news, is Ashley Eames from the Frankston Dolphins.
He's a 200cm ruckman, who is 27 years of age. He was a former strongman, World Wide of Sports style and decided to shed the excess poundage and play some footy two years ago.
The highlights of him showed enough to suggest he would be at worst a better second ruck than McKee ever was. He isn't a slug and is very strong.
I've seen him a few times down here.
He is very very slow.
I don't think he would make it at AFL level
Timmy from Thomastown
16 Aug 2006, 09:51
Not sure - was it a first rounder?
Theres an echo in here.
I've seen him a few times down here.
He is very very slow.
I don't think he would make it at AFL level
Fair enough then.
Still, as evidenced by vinnie's analysis, the cupboard is friggen bare (or ultra-expensive) and we need to consider getting support for Josh ASAP.
I agree with vinnie that our #1 target should be Meesen.
Fair enough then.
Still, as evidenced by vinnie's analysis, the cupboard is friggen bare (or ultra-expensive) and we need to consider getting support for Josh ASAP.
I agree with vinnie that our #1 target should be Meesen.
I think your other option was better
Leuenberger.
This is what Wisby says of him
"Genuine ruck height, good mobility and can take a good mark. Willing to take his own kicks and not just handball off. Not all clubs want a giant ruckman these days which hurt Wood last year and might hurt Leuenberger this year"
He may still be there when our pick comes around.
silverphoenix
16 Aug 2006, 10:25
I think your other option was better
Leuenberger.
This is what Wisby says of him
"Genuine ruck height, good mobility and can take a good mark. Willing to take his own kicks and not just handball off. Not all clubs want a giant ruckman these days which hurt Wood last year and might hurt Leuenberger this year"
He may still be there when our pick comes around.
he will only still be there if we finish lower than the doggies and stkilda, both will be looking for ruckmen
vinnie_vegas69
16 Aug 2006, 12:48
he will only still be there if we finish lower than the doggies and stkilda, both will be looking for ruckmen
There is a prevalent theory that the Dogs will want a ruckman, but with Will Minson and Peter Street, there is absolutely no chance in hell they ignore a key position player again. They have one adequately sized key defender, and with Chris Grant retiring, no adequately sized key forwards (that have been AFL tested, at least).
Ruck is not at all a need for the Doggies, considering that with Minson and Street, they have a pretty strong ruck duo. No chance they take one in the first round with the depth that this draft has in KPP stocks. There's a strong chance that a talent like Jack Riewoldt, Andrejs Everitt or Ben Reid slips to them, and they would be a big chance to pick up Reid because he only just misses out on a Father-Son selection for them.
St Kilda are a possibility, but they are in all-out "win-now" mode, so they might take someone more ready to contribute than a skinny ruckman.
I'm not saying that he'll definitely fall to us, but it's a realistic chance.
I think your other option was better
Leuenberger.
This is what Wisby says of him
"Genuine ruck height, good mobility and can take a good mark. Willing to take his own kicks and not just handball off. Not all clubs want a giant ruckman these days which hurt Wood last year and might hurt Leuenberger this year"
He may still be there when our pick comes around.
I assume we'll hold onto our pick, which let's face it, will probably be 8-12.
If this kid's available, I'd require a thesis from Hiney explaining why we picked the other kid.
Alternatively, if Luey's gone, then we may have a dip at something juicy which we rated top handfull.
If we can pry someone like Meesen with second round + player (if he's not signed up, then he can go to the Filths for nothing!), then that'd be smart too. We wont want to thrash an 18 year old. Richards is all but gone and Flaps is pretty hopeless.
If we could hypothetically end up with a ruck division as exciting as Fraser (who's more a natural forward), Meesen and Leuenberger, then I'd happily give up our second pick and say Rusling.
Dependant on a million variables of course, but FFS, the Fraser as only ruck situation is negligent. Fraser should sue Malthouse if his career is shortened!
Hadders
16 Aug 2006, 18:27
A bloke I've heard a bit about and saw on last night's news, is Ashley Eames from the Frankston Dolphins.
He's a 200cm ruckman, who is 27 years of age. He was a former strongman, World Wide of Sports style and decided to shed the excess poundage and play some footy two years ago.
The highlights of him showed enough to suggest he would be at worst a better second ruck than McKee ever was. He isn't a slug and is very strong.
Ignoring his age, his #1 deterrent would be that he was not picked up by Essendon after a pre-season there last year, but drafting 26 year olds who haven't played AFL is unheard of.
The strategy would be to draft the best available ruckman with our first or second pick depending on our rankings, and to draft a mature age ruckman like Eames later on.
Richards will be delisted. No doubt. Fanning is about a 2% chance of making it as an AFL ruckman. Cam is permanently injured in the shoulder and isn't a genuine ruck option anyway. We're in real trouble and need to think laterally and actually draft a ruckman who is not a ****en string bean!!
I'd kill for us to pick up Luenberger.
Not sure of the rules surrounding the rookie list so this could be a really stupid comment. But couldn't we rookie list a player like this? There's no age limit is there, more on AFL experience I thought.
This way we could take a punt, wouldn't cost a spot on the list and if it doesn't come off he can be chopped a lot easier.
Palmer Stoat
17 Aug 2006, 01:07
If we're sifting through AFL lists for ruckmen, I think Jason Laycock is worth a look. He's behind Hille and Essendon picked up Ryder last year too. Three ruckman-forwards won't fit into a 22. Laycock has had more than his fair share of injury problems -- which has to be factored into the equation -- but when he's been fit, he's looked very promising in my book.
With Hille in front of him and with Ryder likely to pressure him for the second-string ruck position, Laycock might be looking for opportunities elsewhere and Essendon may be prepared to trade.
Certainly one to keep in mind.