The Mystery of the Four Premiership Points

[old_clint]

For many years I've mused upon the need for the need for the apparently inflationary 4 points attributed to the winner of each VFL/AFL match. I see SANFL clubs manage quite well only playing for 2 points. The rest of Australia finds a need to play for four. Does it go back to the Harrison and Wills original written rules, as amended? I've been unable to find the text of these online. I know that the Premiership was not decided by the playing of finals matches but rather by concensus during the early decades of the VFA and that there was no fixture as such with games being played against teams outside the Association. I'm wondering if the 4 points are a hangover from these days with winners getting 4 points for intra-Association games and a lesser number for games played against inferior opponents. Does anybody know what the truth is, or will I have to ask Adrian Anderson?

[Booney]

How do you anticipate AA will be able to help you? Do you need the question rooted up,if so,he can help..

[relapse]

good point, but would bring about a better discussion if it wasnt raised in bay 13.

In some ways the SANFL has some unique quirks, ie the 2 points for a win and the unique percentage system which is arguably a more accurate reflection than the current AFL percentage system.

The SANFL percentage system works out what percentage of the total score your team is responsible for whereas the AFL system works out the percentage as to how many points you have on average as to when your opponent scores 100 points.

[arrowman]

good point, but would bring about a better discussion if it wasnt raised in bay 13.

In some ways the SANFL has some unique quirks, ie the 2 points for a win Nothing quirky about that I would have thought, it would have to be the most common and practical system. That's what soccer did until they moved to the 3 point system.

and the unique percentage system which is arguably a more accurate reflection than the current AFL percentage system.

The SANFL percentage system works out what percentage of the total score your team is responsible for whereas the AFL system works out the percentage as to how many points you have on average as to when your opponent scores 100 points.That's not really an accurate description of the two systems (not the AFL system, anyway). Neither system (for percentage) is "more accurate" than the other, they just express the same thing in two different ways.


When I was a kid we used to say that the VFL awarded 4 points for a win, and calculated the percentage that way, because they just wanted their numbers to look bigger :p

[relapse]

That's not really an accurate description of the two systems (not the AFL system, anyway). Neither system (for percentage) is "more accurate" than the other, they just express the same thing in two different ways.


Actually it is the way to describe both of them let me explain and actually they dont represent the same thing, they actually represent something different to each other and there is no correlation between the two.

Round 1

Team A wins 100 to 70

in the SANFL their percentage would be 59.0%, this represents that team A acrued 59% of the total score

while team b's percentage would be 41.00% which means that they have acrued 41% of the total score.

While in the AFL team a's percentage would be 143 % which represents as a percentage Team A's score against a figure of 100 against their opponents. which says that team a scores 143 points for every 100 points their opponents score.

while team b's percentage is 70% because Team A scored 100 points which means that on average team b scores 70 points for every 100 that their opponents score.

So what I have described I believe actually does sum up each percentage system.

As I said before

The SANFL percentage represents which percentage of the total score your side has scored while the AFL percentage system represents what score your side has scored in relation to an opponent scoring 100 points.

The problem with the AFL system comes from low scoring games for example Team A wins 50 to Team B 20. With the AFL system Team A will have a percentage of 250% while team b will have a percentage of 40% whereas in the SANFL system Team A will have a percentage of 71.42% and team b will have a percentage of 28.57%.

I do think that while both have their flaws the SANFL actually does make more sense than the AFL percentage system.

[arrowman]

Actually it is the way to describe both of them let me explain and actually they dont represent the same thing, they actually represent something different to each other and there is no correlation between the two.They don't represent exactly the same thing, but they do both measure, in different ways, the team's (accumulated) score vs their opponents'. And there is very much a correlation between the two; the team with the highest percentage under the SANFL system will be the team with the highest percentage under the AFL system - etc.
<snip example for space>Yep, gotcha, understand that.
...while team b's percentage is 70% because Team A scored 100 points which means that on average team b scores 70 points for every 100 that their opponents score.
...The SANFL percentage represents which percentage of the total score your side has scored while the AFL percentage system represents what score your side has scored in relation to an opponent scoring 100 points.That's where I have a problem with the way you've described the AFL system. Pedantic, maybe, but the AFL system measures Team A's (cumulative) scores as a percentage of their opponents' scores while the SANFL system measures Team A's scores as a percentage of the total scores.

"In relation to an opponent scoring 100 points" doesn't really describe it accurately - or should I say technically it does, but it puts a spin on the definition that doesn't belong. They're both percentages, is all.
The problem with the AFL system comes from low scoring games for example Team A wins 50 to Team B 20. With the AFL system Team A will have a percentage of 250% while team b will have a percentage of 40% whereas in the SANFL system Team A will have a percentage of 71.42% and team b will have a percentage of 28.57%.Why is that a problem?
I do think that while both have their flaws the SANFL actually does make more sense than the AFL percentage system.A matter of personal preference, I suppose, personally I don't see any reason to prefer one over the other.

Cheers. :thumbsu:

[old_clint]

OK, thanks. We seem to have digressed a little here. The question was "why do we play for 4 points?" My contention was that it may have originally been necessary to quantify the value of wins against a disparate opposition. Does anyone have a clue? I'm fairly certain that Anderson would not have the foggiest.

[old_clint]

You don't "get it" do you macca. It's not about the length of a piece of string. You never know, someone with a bit of nous may have an answer.

[crudbucket]

What I'd like to know is how long will the Mods take to wake up to your user name "OLD CLINT" ? i luv it !!!! :D

[old_clint]

Sorry, I'm not with you.

[crudbucket]

Yeah sure. Do you think I can change my user name to FLICK YOU ?

[old_clint]

It does have a nicer ring than "crudbucket".

[Crowz Gal]

Actually it is the way to describe both of them let me explain and actually they dont represent the same thing, they actually represent something different to each other and there is no correlation between the two.

Round 1

Team A wins 100 to 70

in the SANFL their percentage would be 59.0%, this represents that team A acrued 59% of the total score

while team b's percentage would be 41.00% which means that they have acrued 41% of the total score.

While in the AFL team a's percentage would be 143 % which represents as a percentage Team A's score against a figure of 100 against their opponents. which says that team a scores 143 points for every 100 points their opponents score.

while team b's percentage is 70% because Team A scored 100 points which means that on average team b scores 70 points for every 100 that their opponents score.

So what I have described I believe actually does sum up each percentage system.

As I said before

The SANFL percentage represents which percentage of the total score your side has scored while the AFL percentage system represents what score your side has scored in relation to an opponent scoring 100 points.

The problem with the AFL system comes from low scoring games for example Team A wins 50 to Team B 20. With the AFL system Team A will have a percentage of 250% while team b will have a percentage of 40% whereas in the SANFL system Team A will have a percentage of 71.42% and team b will have a percentage of 28.57%.

I do think that while both have their flaws the SANFL actually does make more sense than the AFL percentage system.


I always thought the % was calculated by the total number of points scored (for your club) divided by the number of points scored against.
Or is that the same thing....its always worked for me when trying to work out teams %. I dont know im not mathematically minded:)

It is a bit silly anyway....how can you have a 142% its impossible...it justs sounds big!
:)

[Kildonan]

Yeah sure. Do you think I can change my user name to FLICK YOU ?

It does have a nicer ring than "crudbucket".

:D Hidden text

[Kildonan]

It is a bit silly anyway....how can you have a 142% its impossible...it justs sounds big!
:)

The clue here is percent - percent means per 100

If you have 142% it means you score 142 for every 100 scored against you.

That's not impossible at all. Check out the Crows.

[crudbucket]

It does have a nicer ring than "crudbucket".

Hey, I'm not against your name, I reckon it's a ripper. ...Just didn't think you'd get away with it.

[old_clint]

Hey, I'm not against your name, I reckon it's a ripper. ...Just didn't think you'd get away with it.
My parents chose the given name Clinton, not much I could do about it, and I've been around for some little time.
What I did find astonishing though was that I could open a Hotmail account as "old_clint", no numbers or qualifications, you'd have bet big numbers on it being taken.
Now what about those 4 pts?