View Full Version : What did Choco say ...
Ford Fairlane
19 Aug 2006, 15:04
... about Brett Ebert in his press conference? Seems to have stirred a number of callers to 5AA this morning to comment about his perceived criticism of Brett post match.
Power21
19 Aug 2006, 15:16
Surely he couldn't have criticised the guy.
RussellEbertHandball
19 Aug 2006, 16:06
I saw the 5 minutes of the pc they showed on Fox Footy's Saturday Central. He praised Ebert and then said he missed a lot of marks and shot for goals as well in the second half. It was tough!! But given we threw the game away kicking 7 pts in the last quarter and he was still upset I can understand why he said it. He should have bagged Dew, Mahoney and one or two other older players as well. Praised Dom as outstanding and said that the only real lapse he had was that Didak got the ball at the end. He didn't initiate that criticsm it was in response to a question about Didak. He went on a bit about the Pearce point.
Expect the sports shrinks and oppostion supporters to have another go at Choco. Anyone who reckons it was to tough by Choco should have to watch the CNN highlights of one of the recent wars to get things into perspective.
It was frustrating as Brett could have kicked 6 or 8 if he had just finished off a little better. He should have kicked that goal in the 3rd quarter he crumbed off Toby's hands. It was a brilliant bit of forward crumbing. Also that mark he dropped where he was 7 or 8m in front of Clement and 30m straight out. If he kicked those goals the pressure would have gone back on Clement and the Collingwood defensive coach and maybe Clement wouldn't have been confident enough to zone off him in the last quarter a few times.
It was interesting that after the bit of the pc both Dunstall and Carey sang the praises of Brett and couldn't believe that Williams doesn't give him a go in the middle. Dunstall was adamant that given he had won a Magarey in the SANFL playing centre, that he knew how to play the position and that he could be used in there as a burst player. Dunstall said there was a question about his endurance and Carey said give him 5 to 10 minutes in there and then he can go forward rather than him going to the bench for a rest. Basically they gave him the thumbs up and consider him a good player.
Yeah, he basically said he missed some goals and marks in the second half, so it wasn't a complete game. But other than that, gave him a pretty good wrap.
spice18
19 Aug 2006, 20:28
... about Brett Ebert in his press conference? Seems to have stirred a number of callers to 5AA this morning to comment about his perceived criticism of Brett post match.
Actually I think this was about a question on the turning point in the game: Mark said go have a look at what happens 2 minutes before half time. Some people took this to mean mark was referring to Brett giving away the 50m penalty when in fact it was in reference to the original free kick given against Surj's tackle on buckley. Mark's point was that THAT was not a free kick and it virtually gifted pies with a goal. Cornes said Mark asked Dwayne Russell what that free was for in the first place.
Hope I haven't confused the issue further
Any criticism on our kicking for goal is warranted though.
We are one of the very worst in conversion rate this year.
Macca19
20 Aug 2006, 00:29
I think ciriticism of Bretts second half is more than justified.
PJ Power
20 Aug 2006, 12:05
I caught the PC.
I must admit I thought Choco was accurate in his comments but unfair in singling out Brett as one who didn't have a complete game.
His comments about Brett virtually started his PC off - I don't think they were prefaced by a question specifically about Brett.
My take on the overall gist of his response was that Mark was a negative as he was positive about Brett, which I think rightly left a bad taste in alot of supporters' mouths.
To me, it does seem like Mark makes a special effort to keep Brett a little too grounded. There have been stories around for a while now about Mark berating him in public (at training in front of other players) for being big-headed and far from having made it yet.
After an effort like that on Friday night, I think the negative criticism should be watered down for the public's ears.
Many other players could have been singled out for their incomplete games:
Brogan for a miserable first quarter where every tap went to a Collingwood player.
Mahoney for very poor vision throughout the game and poor execution.
Dew for three costly missed shots for goal.
Thurstans for a lack of last quarter pressure on his opponent.
Salopek for that costly dropped mark on the verge of halftime.
To single Brett out wasn't called for.
Mark definitely scores a :thumbsd: from me - and I completely understood the disappointment fellow supporters vented on Saturday morning.
Ford Fairlane
20 Aug 2006, 12:29
Choco never criticises senior players or his GPH's (usually one in the same thing).
Don't suppose there was any mention of how Rusling was 5m ahead of Bish on every lead in the first half? Yes, I know Rusling is much quicker than Bishop, but there is, as they say, more than 1 way to skin a cat. Body positioning, elbow across the chest, pinch him if it comes to that! A lot of players were quicker than Ivan Eckermann, Tony Giles, Paul Northeast, Stephen Carter etc too ...
And people wonder why some of us come on here and state our opinions of Choco. His continual public critism of players is pathetic and only helps to lower their self confidence when hearing the coach carry on like that.
Frank Spencer Clone
20 Aug 2006, 12:53
And people wonder why some of us come on here and state our opinions of Choco. His continual public critism of players is pathetic and only helps to lower their self confidence when hearing the coach carry on like that.
You know as well as I do Sharon, that is just nonsense.
It's simply a matter that Toby Thurstans , Damon White and Brett Ebert just aren't up to AFL standard. It's got nothing to do with having their self confidence whittled away by a man whose ability to mentor is about as strong as my ability to build rocket ships :rolleyes:
Power21
20 Aug 2006, 14:56
You know as well as I do Sharon, that is just nonsense.
It's simply a matter that Toby Thurstans , Damon White and Brett Ebert just aren't up to AFL standard. It's got nothing to do with having their self confidence whittled away by a man whose ability to mentor is about as strong as my ability to build rocket ships :rolleyes:
A player who isn't up to AFL standard doesn't kick 4 and play a great game. It wasn't Brett's fault we lost, he was trying hard the whole night he just dropped a couple of marks, he kicked points to which is 50-50, if he kicked 7 and we win he is the next big thing.
Nothing to do with choco.
A player who isn't up to AFL standard doesn't kick 4 and play a great game. It wasn't Brett's fault we lost, he was trying hard the whole night he just dropped a couple of marks, he kicked points to which is 50-50, if he kicked 7 and we win he is the next big thing.
Nothing to do with choco.
You really didnt take much note of the sarcastic smiley at the end of the post did you.
What FSC was trying to say was the same that I posted. Choco's continual criticism of players in a pc does nothing for their self confidence or their self estseem.
Next time take a good hard look at the end of the post before jumping all over people again.
And people wonder why some of us come on here and state our opinions of Choco. His continual public critism of players is pathetic and only helps to lower their self confidence when hearing the coach carry on like that.
What continual public criticism?
Do you really think that the players would actually listen to the PC?
I suggest that the direct discussions between the coaches and players after a game in meetings and at training are likely to have more impact that some glib statements in a PC - of which none of us have any access to and therefore none of us are in a position to make any assessment of the impact on a player's confidence.
Do you really think that the players would actually listen to the PC?
Why wouldnt they listen to what he says during the PC?? They have videos at home to record the game and the after match interview.
The PC is also on the radio where they have access to or their families for sure. Fox Footy show the PC so yes, we do have the chance to hear what he says about the players.
Some of the players also go back to the club after the match where Choco will repeat some of the things that we said during the PC.
So you honestly dont think that when a player hears their coach critise them in a public media conference that they wont take it to heart and that it wont help their confidence?? You are another that needs a good ole reality check.
Troy Wingate
20 Aug 2006, 19:31
What continual public criticism?
Do you really think that the players would actually listen to the PC?
I suggest that the direct discussions between the coaches and players after a game in meetings and at training are likely to have more impact that some glib statements in a PC - of which none of us have any access to and therefore none of us are in a position to make any assessment of the impact on a player's confidence.
Don't have access too? Obviously you don't listen to radio or have Fox Footy.
Yes, the Press Conference's are on them.
Don't have access too? Obviously you don't listen to radio or have Fox Footy.
Yes, the Press Conference's are on them.
The construction of the sentence refers to access to the direct discussions between players and coaches.
Toots Hibbert
20 Aug 2006, 21:08
You know as well as I do Sharon, that is just nonsense.
It's simply a matter that Toby Thurstans , Damon White and Brett Ebert just aren't up to AFL standard. It's got nothing to do with having their self confidence whittled away by a man whose ability to mentor is about as strong as my ability to build rocket ships :rolleyes:
I just don't think that's correct. So many of the young guys this year have praised Mark Williams for the support he's given them. They say that he's always happy to take time out to talk to them, to go through tapes of games, to explain what he wants to see from them to get into the side. All of that is mentoring. We've had four Rising Star nominees this year including a guy who Choco plucked from the rookie list last year and gave game to at every opportunity.
A couple of weeks ago there was a comment that Pettigrew had missed a late shot for goal because Choco had destroyed his confidence. The next thing we know Pettigrew has kicked three last quarter goals including a set shot on an acute angle to win us a game.
Choco should have given more game time to the young guys last year from early on in the season. This year he seems to have hardly put a foot wrong from early on in the season when he acknowledged it was time to put the emphasis on youth.
Frank Spencer Clone
20 Aug 2006, 22:52
[QUOTE]So many of the young guys this year have praised Mark Williams for the support he's given them. You're either very naive or don't have much of a clue about the hierarchial system in the workplace.
The junior doesn't publicly criticise the boss if he wants to keep his job - especially when the boss is a total egomaniac.
So given your comments then please give me the benefit of your expertise vis a vis Damon White, Toby Thurstans, Brett Ebert, Ben Eckermann - and also blokes like Nick Stevens, Josh Carr and Brent Guerra who couldn't clear out of the joint quick enough.
Must be some reason why a kid who comes here full of confidence and poise suddenly metamorphisises into a bloke who has no confidence, fumbles, appears disinterested and looks totally dispirited.
Wouldn't have anything to do with ' workplace bullying ' you reckon??
Toots Hibbert
20 Aug 2006, 23:12
Frank I suppose it's possible that these guys are all lying through their teeth. Have you spoken to them? Have they told you they feel obliged to say these things?
With regard to Josh Carr he still had nice things to say about his former coach and club when he got to Freo. I'm sorry to see the guy go but he wanted to play with his brother.
Nick Stevens also wanted to go home. What possible grounds are there to say Choco mistreated him. The guy was a star player in our side. Can't say I'm sorry he's gone though.
Brent Guerra didn't get as much game time as he would have liked at Port. He hasn't set the world on fire at the Saints or Hawthorn either.
As for kids fumbling, losing confidence and looking disinterested, which of our crop of youngsters is giving you this impression? Pearcey? Logan? Thommo? Symes? Bentley? Pettigrew?...
I just don't think that's correct. So many of the young guys this year have praised Mark Williams for the support he's given them. They say that he's always happy to take time out to talk to them, to go through tapes of games, to explain what he wants to see from them to get into the side. All of that is mentoring. We've had four Rising Star nominees this year including a guy who Choco plucked from the rookie list last year and gave game to at every opportunity.
A couple of weeks ago there was a comment that Pettigrew had missed a late shot for goal because Choco had destroyed his confidence. The next thing we know Pettigrew has kicked three last quarter goals including a set shot on an acute angle to win us a game.
Choco should have given more game time to the young guys last year from early on in the season. This year he seems to have hardly put a foot wrong from early on in the season when he acknowledged it was time to put the emphasis on youth.
I know that it is easy for the young kids to toe the party line when answering those questions but I believe they are genuine. It's great to see the confidence in the young players growing and how it has been nurtured by the coaching and development staff and senior players as mentors.
I see that a bonus for a good pre-season and a positive start to next season.
What about Monty?? Have you all forgotten what he said during his interview after he was sent packing by the club. He didnt have too many nice things to say about Choco and the way that he conducts himself with the players.
Monty also said that Choco told him that we wouldnt get anywhere near winning another flag for at least 5 - 6 years. No one believed him at the time and thought that what Monty said was all sour grapes. Seems to me that Monty was telling the truth.
What about Monty?? Have you all forgotten what he said during his interview after he was sent packing by the club. He didnt have too many nice things to say about Choco and the way that he conducts himself with the players.
Monty also said that Choco told him that we wouldnt get anywhere near winning another flag for at least 5 - 6 years. No one believed him at the time and thought that what Monty said was all sour grapes. Seems to me that Monty was telling the truth.
You mean the 33 yo Monty who the club believed was not good enough to be in our team going forward and assessed that a younger player would be better value. Oh, and who also would have been on $250k plus and may have realised that he might not pick up another contract like that.
You mean the 33 yo Monty who the club believed was not good enough to be in our team going forward and assessed that a younger player would be better value. Oh, and who also would have been on $250k plus and may have realised that he might not pick up another contract like that.
and yet they have the gaul to keep a hack like Bishop in the team. I know who I would prefer to see pull on the teal, black and white each week and it sure as hell isnt Bishop.
Monty was a great player for the team and didnt deserve to be ousted in that way.
and yet they have the gaul to keep a hack like Bishop in the team. I know who I would prefer to see pull on the teal, black and white each week and it sure as hell isnt Bishop.
Monty was a great player for the team and didnt deserve to be ousted in that way.
There is never an easy way to delist players who were great for the club and believe they can go on longer that what the club thinks and Monty is in that category along with Paxman - but sometimes the coaching staff just have to make the hard decisions - that's what they get paid for.
WRT Bishop - I agree he is now not up to it and I can't understand why he is getting a game - I suppose compared to Monty in age, height and pace is why he was preferred for the position he was due play in the team structure.
We certainly do not have a ready replacement for the role that Bishop played so well in our successful years - and we need one quickly - it could be Pettigrew but he seems some suited forward.
Toots Hibbert
21 Aug 2006, 00:00
One player who gets mentioned in this sort of discussion is Toby Thurstans. You would think if the view that his career has been destroyed by Williams was correct and that Choco is a workplace bully is true then Toby would be on the first available flight out. The fact he's still here in spite of the opportunity to go says something.
There is never an easy way to delist players who were great for the club and believe they can go on longer that what the club thinks and Monty is in that category along with Paxman - but sometimes the coaching staff just have to make the hard decisions - that's what they get paid for.
WRT Bishop - I agree he is now not up to it and I can't understand why he is getting a game - I suppose compared to Monty in age, height and pace is why he was preferred for the position he was due play in the team structure.
We certainly do not have a ready replacement for the role that Bishop played so well in our successful years - and we need one quickly - it could be Pettigrew but he seems some suited forward.
So are you glad that they delisted Monty?? What was wrong with the way he played and conducted himself within the club?? He would of been a fantastic role model for the young guys.
Oh forgot to mention. He was ranked our third best player for the 2005 season. So now tell me that they had no choice but delist him.
Macca19
21 Aug 2006, 00:06
Had Monty still been here, he would have taken probably Symes' flank and people would be whinging that Choco isnt giving the kids a go and playing the oldies.
He said that Choco said that we wouldnt be a contendor for 3 years, so its best to give his spot to someone that will be around then. What exactly is wrong with that statement?
Monty was a great servant of our club for 6 seasons but the way he acted smacked of sour grapes for being delisted. Id also like to see these quotes from him saying that Mark cant interact with the young guys. I cant recall him saying anything like that at all.
Had Monty still been here, he would have taken probably Symes' flank and people would be whinging that Choco isnt giving the kids a go and playing the oldies.
He said that Choco said that we wouldnt be a contendor for 3 years, so its best to give his spot to someone that will be around then. What exactly is wrong with that statement?
I think it is pretty evident that Mark was trying to ease the blow to Monty, that is "we're not going to be any good for x time, so we don't want to waste your time."
We didn't really have space on our list for Monty, as he's either a first 18 player or nothing - it would've been a bigger insult to him running him in the seconds for the entire year IMO. It was pretty clear his delisting was a function of the movement from having a crack at the premiership with one group of players, to the next.
Macca19
21 Aug 2006, 00:14
So are you glad that they delisted Monty?? What was wrong with the way he played and conducted himself within the club?? He would of been a fantastic role model for the young guys.
Oh forgot to mention. He was ranked our third best player for the 2005 season. So now tell me that they had no choice but delist him.
Ranked 3rd in what exactly?
Monty was 33. Had a bung back. Wasnt gonna be here for our next premiership push. Had Symes waiting patiently behind him. We then drafted Thomas and Lower to fill a defensive flank/pocket. We had Chad that basically performs Montys role in defence anyway.
Great player, great servant. How long do you keep someone on just because they might help out a youngster, a youngster that he would be keeping out of the side?
So are you glad that they delisted Monty?? What was wrong with the way he played and conducted himself within the club?? He would of been a fantastic role model for the young guys.
Oh forgot to mention. He was ranked our third best player for the 2005 season. So now tell me that they had no choice but delist him.
Please read the post carefully - I didn't say anything about being glad and that the club has to make tough decisions.
Macca and Bresh - thanks.
Mr Magoo
21 Aug 2006, 04:31
Please read the post carefully - I didn't say anything about being glad and that the club has to make tough decisions.
Macca and Bresh - thanks.
They will also have to make a few hard decisions at the end of this year but a few regarding players on our list have already been made for them.
Wanganeen - retired
Francou - ? looks likely to retire
Kingsley - ? looks likely to retire
Bishop - ? he's still got at least 10 good years left in him :D
Wakelin - ? might play 1 more year but then that's holding up Carlile's progression isn't it?
Wilson - ? the speed of the game might be getting a bit tough for Wilbur
Re the monty discussion i'm not sure if it was sour grapes or whatnot but at least he had the opportunity to play in a premiership team & their is a lot of champion footballers who never got to experience that feeling eg Ablett etc.
wharfie_1870
21 Aug 2006, 10:56
.........Monty was a great player for the team and didnt deserve to be ousted in that way.
.........What was wrong with the way he played and conducted himself within the club?
Monty signed his "death warrant" with the PAFC when he was the "senior player" who leaked sensitive information about the club to Melbourne journo Stephen Reilly. See my posts on this issue here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3493858&postcount=53) and here (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4054496&postcount=67).
I agree with you that Monty should have been kept in the team and Brad Symes or Jacob Surjan should still be playing in the SANFL. After all that is what a coach with any idea about developing young players would be doing ;) (just borrowing some sarcasm from FSC)