Harvey to replace Pagan?

[RiteBak@Ya]

Just a rumour! But, an interesting one.

It was alleged that Mark Harvey was seen dining (meeting) with a group of Carlton powerbrokers recently. Not sure who the powerbrokers are! When or where the meeting occurred? Information has come from a ex-Bulldogs player.

Could be a succession plan in place? Thoughts

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No thanks

[HBF]

Just a rumour! But, an interesting one.

It was alleged that Mark Harvey was seen dining (meeting) with a group of Carlton powerbrokers recently. Not sure who the powerbrokers are! When or where the meeting occurred? Information has come from a ex-Bulldogs player.

Could be a succession plan in place? Thoughts

Interesting, although Pagan still has 2 years to run on his contract. I doubt Carlton would or could pay out his hefty contract.

[RiteBak@Ya]

Interesting, although Pagan still has 2 years to run on his contract. I doubt Carlton would or could pay out his hefty contract.

Agree, cant and wont afford it. Perplexed about why they would be meeting him.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The rumour goes that someone is prepared to pay out Pagan from his own pocket. I'd prefer they kept Pagan and paid Harvey's salary for the next two years straight on to our debt.

It seems that people think we will get more corporate support with a new coach and/or board and this would be spending money to make money. Apparently though, SOS is the person they want to come back to the fold.

Dare we hope for a friendly offseason media wise? Unlikely.

[OZBomb]

That would be a risky, if not bad, decision. I would rather we let Pagan run his contract and then assess if the new list is progressing enough to justify his position.

[deluxeman]

The rumour goes that someone is prepared to pay out Pagan from his own pocket. I'd prefer they kept Pagan and paid Harvey's salary for the next two years straight on to our debt.


Have to agree.

No point wasting money now on a new coach which will probably not produce much better results next year than Pagan would have.
Would rather we keep him for the next 2 years, and then invest in a coach that lives and breathes Carlton. (hopefully a Ratten or Dean if they're up to it)

[Barb4Prez!]

I get the feeling that Pagan will get one more year to get this team heading up the ladder. If we finish anywhere less than 13th he will be bought out as our lack of success is hurting our sponsorship and membership $$. I was always a supporter of Pagan's but with a better list all we have improved this year is not getting smashed every 2nd week but we still get consistently beaten even after a win when our confidence should be up. The Hawthorn, Richmond and even the Essendon result has really lowered my confidence in Pagan and the constant excuses about young inexperienced can't be helping the playing groups confidence. If you said to any coach at the start of the year you would have the AA full forward & coleman medalist, the NAB rising star and potentially two all australian half backs in Whitnall and Scotland and they would win the spoon they would wonder what you were smoking. I would be for any coach that would bring a fresh new approach to Carlton F.C as Pagan's isn't working.

[Blues_Man]

Harvey is a brain dead moron ...I'd prefer Danny Frawley to him

[stokesy]

I'm a fan of Harvey, I'd have him in a heart beat.

[jj1978]

The thought of having an Essendon bred person leading the Blues makes me more nauseous than winning the spoon.

[Jimthegreat]

Interesting, although Pagan still has 2 years to run on his contract. I doubt Carlton would or could pay out his hefty contract.Heard 3AW say the same thing about Harvey seeing, so it's kore than once source. Pagan will be paid out the way things seem to be heading. After an AFL review of our finances the only place we are losing money is membership and match day.....cotorie etc... (seems, going by Smorgon's interview on the ABC a few weeks ago that they are also initiating our coaching review too). Other revenue is ok (sponsorship etc....), cost are pretty good so the key is to find a way of increasing match day finances. The only way of doing that is to change things up in the coaching box. What we lose paying out Pagan we gain two or threefold with increases in membership and match day finances.

[Jimthegreat]

The thought of having an Essendon bred person leading the Blues makes me more nauseous than winning the spoon.If he can coach I'm happy to have him. Let's not let personal bias cloud our judgement. It's not smart. I'm happy to have Harvey, although Barry Mitchell is my first choice.

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

let Marc Murphy become player coach next year, and give the captaincy to Gibbs :D

[MeeSo]

What we lose paying out Pagan we gain two or threefold with increases in membership and match day finances.
No we won't.

[Jimthegreat]

No we won't.Yes we will. The drop in membership this year equates to what we owe Pagan paying him out alone. Get that back and you've covered the payout in one go. We pay Kouta alot less next year, so in com[arison there's money extra next year. Given that and match day revenue are our the only areas causing our losses (part of that ABC interview so it pretty factual, and generated by the AFL), it doesn't take much in the way of smarts to work out that on-field improvement and membership will more than cover Pagan's pay out. There's only one way to generate interest amongst the membesr and that's make changes generating hope and enthusiam. Smorgon point-blank refused to guarantee Pagan's position 3 times when interviewed and certainly didn't deny it when asked if the coaching review was AFL generated. All he said that the Board would have done their own review anyway. Work it out yourself, you're a smart man.

[Bluebear]

Yes we will. The drop in membership this year equates to what we owe Pagan paying him out alone. Get that back and you've covered the payout in one go.

Factored in the cost of the new coach?
Not sure how sacking a coach (very Richmond) will magically increase attendances, given that the new coah will have a new style that the playing group will suck at (because they lack skills - our real problem as oppsed to thse made up probs people keep crapping on about!), and we will finsih last again - maybe not a bad ploy if angling for draft picks - but financially stupid and not in our best interests.

[audas]

Magic bullets dont exist.

[audas]

Magic bullets dont exist.


Sacking Pagan will bring back membership ? Right so what if a whole lot of supporters think Pagan has had a rough trot from fair weather supporters and board alike and if they were to sack him it would be the last straw and off they walk. There maybe more people out there who understand the hard yards that are required than short termers who need immediate gratification. Might make things worse. CERTAINLY dont want more strife in the blues, nothing could be worse for the club than sacking the coach, would spell the end.

[jj1978]

From what I've seen or heard from Smorgon so far is a bit of huff and puff.

He's a new president, whose 2 predecessors have had a fair bit of ire from supporters; Elliot-we know the story, Collins-bye bye home ground.

I think he's just trying to make his mark by being tough and trying to make supporters think he has balls and will get the job done.

I think it's a bit of reverse psychology - hear me out.

You don't guarantee to supporters that all coaching places will be reviewed... supporters go, "Gee this guy is good, we can trust him because he's going through all the processes to ensure we are heading in the right direction". And in the end he'll end up saying after all our reviews we firmly believe Pagan is still the man for the job.

Collins recall also had a bit of a huff and puff over Pagan and eventually re-signed him for another 3.

I think Pagan is safe, Smorgon just a good business man who's going through all the motions to obtain our trust and to let those within Carlton know that he's the man.

Ahhh the good ole power play trick!

[HBF]

The rumour goes that someone is prepared to pay out Pagan from his own pocket. I'd prefer they kept Pagan and paid Harvey's salary for the next two years straight on to our debt.

It seems that people think we will get more corporate support with a new coach and/or board and this would be spending money to make money. Apparently though, SOS is the person they want to come back to the fold.

Dare we hope for a friendly offseason media wise? Unlikely.

I believe more and more people are becoming frustarted with Pagans style of coaching and his inability to improve the teams skills. I'm not sure who would want to pay out his contarct, but to be honest, a new coach might just be what we need to lift us up the ladder.

ODN - Do you know of the person who is prepared to pay out Pagans contract?

[RiteBak@Ya]

I believe more and more people are becoming frustarted with Pagans style of coaching and his inability to improve the teams skills. I'm not sure who would want to pay out his contarct, but to be honest, a new coach might just be what we need to lift us up the ladder.

ODN - Do you know of the person who is prepared to pay out Pagans contract?

Think of the people inside the club who can afford it? Smorgan and co.

[jj1978]

Think of the people inside the club who can afford it? Smorgan and co.

I'd rather invest the (assumed) 1.5 million to pay out his contract to paying off the debt. Interest on 1.5 Million over a few years is hurting our financially unstable club.

But in Saying that if you find a coach to work for 1/2 Pagan's income the 700K or so saved could go straight to the debt.

I think in the end the board will give him another year.... this talk about Carlton talking to other potential coaches could be more for an assistants role with view to becoming senior when Pagan's contract expires.

[1980GFVideo]

Harvey is a brain dead moron ...I'd prefer Danny Frawley to him

No you wouldnt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:

[bluevegas]

Just a rumour! But, an interesting one.

It was alleged that Mark Harvey was seen dining (meeting) with a group of Carlton powerbrokers recently. Not sure who the powerbrokers are! When or where the meeting occurred? Information has come from a ex-Bulldogs player.

Could be a succession plan in place? Thoughts


Interesting to here that, last week during an interview on Perths Ch 7 news with Mark Harvey, Basil Z made a tongue in cheek remark about Mark conducting the interview in the west (Wembley Downs) & not in Melbourne. Mark then elaborated by stating he hasn't been in Melbourne nor has he had any contact with the Carlton football Club. I was a bit taken back to the last bit as Mark Harvey needed not mention the Blues as Basil hadn't.

I didn't post that last week as its pure speculation but what you have posted may give some credence to it.

[RiteBak@Ya]

Interesting to here that, last week during an interview on Perths Ch 7 news with Mark Harvey, Basil Z made a tongue in cheek remark about Mark conducting the interview in the west (Wembley Downs) & not in Melbourne. Mark then elaborated by stating he hasn't been in Melbourne nor has he had any contact with the Carlton football Club. I was a bit taken back to the last bit as Mark Harvey needed not mention the Blues as Basil hadn't.

I didn't post that last week as its pure speculation but what you have posted may give some credence to it.

No doubt the meeting occurred, the question is why it occurred? I can not see Harvey taking another assistant role.

Smorgan is doing a due diligence as part of his coaching review. Feeling out other potentials would be part of that process. This is coupled with poor coaching perfomances and the boards disatisfaction with Pagans performance.

I can't see how this move can offset the huge payout to Pagan. The numbers don't stack up when you are tring to measure potential membership increases - its to intangible and to risky to suggest an increase of $700K in memberships.

[Bluebear]

All this talk frustrates the hell out of me. Can anyone genuinelysit back and say its Pagans fault???
Is it Pagan's fault that we:
- constantly traded away early round picks for "ready made" players?
- were corrupt in our player payments leading to the first real attempt to kill a club since Fitzroy. Those weren't penalties, they were an assassination attempt!!!!!
- Is it his fault that Nick Stevens can't hit targets or pressure his opponenet anymore.

Again I make the point - look at the teams that have visited the blunt end of the ladder in recent years - Roos, Doggies, Pies, Tigers, Melbourne. With no draft penalties they have had varying degrees of success and apart from the Tiges (and Hawks - losers), have bounced up quickly from being at the bottom.
We have had 1 good draft year (our own fault for being successful in 2004). That was last year, and listen to the buzz about Josh and Marc. If they were coming in to a list that wasn't shredded by poor policy of previous admins (i.e. recruit players with 3-4 years of limited active service left) then it would be a different story.They come into a depleted list that is building from the bottom up - the only other club to hit these levels and do what we are doing was St Kilda late 99-2001. Look at them now - they are the model we should loo kat for were we are headed.

Before we get to caught up in why Dennis can't magically improve the skills of these players lets look at the success stories - and ask what other coach would have had these results:
Brendon Fevola - under ANY other coach (except maybe Malthouse) Fev would have been traded/sacked/otherwise disposed of. I have no doubt his resurgence as a player is due soley to Dennis (who didn't improve his skills - just his head).
Simpson/Walker/Betts/Bentick........loads of young guns with varying degrees of talent.

Understand this - players are taken in the draft in an order for a reason. SKILL.
If it was that easy to teach players everyone would be doing it and no-one would miss targets. That kind of skill is learbed early and has a lot to do with natural ability. Some guys can work their ass off to become a good skillful player (Brett Ratten) but it takes time and effort. Others are born with it (Campo, Fev, Mark Waugh) and never have to work that hard to improve their skills - just their heads - if their heads are right the rest takes care of itself.

Pagan is about to get his FIRST shot at coaching a skillful group of players next year with the new draft. He has done an amazing job to get the most out of guys with minimal talent to just compete.

Honestly, you guys start to sound like Richmond supporters with this kind of stuff. I just hope that the current board don't listen to a fw vocal members who don't have a clue and are just impatient, and they panick, do somthing stupid and bugger us for another 4-5 years.

KEEP DENNIS - let me hera ya sing, KEEP DENNIS

[WalkerTexasRanger]

:rolleyes: Hopefully the contract drafters at the Blues weren't as stupid as many of the past management have been and remembered to include a performance based clause in Pagan's contract. Perhaps this might enable them to come to some arrangement for a lesser payout??

The problem with Pagan, and I'll admit he seems to have done some very good things off field with players, is more to do with his coaching on match day - he seems unable to inspire the players and makes foolish decisions. In 90% of this years matches he has made silly changes to structures that are working and has been too slow to modify structures that clearly aren't working. The recent Melbourne game was mostly a nice change.

For me the problem is not losing... I will continue to support Carlton forever (its in my blood 3 generations on each parent's side) no matter what, but I hate to lose when I honestly think it doesn't have to be like this. We don't have the greatest list - that is true, but these guys have shown that they are capable of dominating the ladder leaders for at least a majority of a footy match.

I doubt that the financial pressure the club is facing has a huge impact on player performance - as anyone who plays/ed footy knows, players play for each other first and foremost (despite what supporters think) - the supporters are important too, but the effort is put in for the team - If players cared to much about what we think they would not be able to get out of bed. One thing that definately has a huge impact on player performance is the coach - whose ultimate purpose is to be there to inspire and direct on field performances. Pagan may be useful for player development on the track and helping to settle the petulance of young players, but match day coaching is another issue.

I am grateful to Pagan for saving Fev and his obvious work with Simpson, but he is just too expensive to justify retaining in light of his inability to generate onfield success. To those who think that pushes to get rid of Pagan are motivated by naivety and foolishness, don't be so quick to judge: Pagan is a sage of the football world - his wisdom and experience is undoubted - but his or his assitants' decisions during match time are commonly illogical - My frustration stems from knowing that every time the boys start to fire, run together and link up their play - Pagan et al will change something structurally to stymie this.

[Bluebear]

:rolleyes: Hopefully the contract drafters at the Blues weren't as stupid as many of the past management have been and remembered to include a performance based clause in Pagan's contract. Perhaps this might enable them to come to some arrangement for a lesser payout??

The problem with Pagan, and I'll admit he seems to have done some very good things off field with players, is more to do with his coaching on match day - he seems unable to inspire the players and makes foolish decisions. In 90% of this years matches he has made silly changes to structures that are working and has been too slow to modify structures that clearly aren't working. The recent Melbourne game was mostly a nice change.

For me the problem is not losing... I will continue to support Carlton forever (its in my blood 3 generations on each parent's side) no matter what, but I hate to lose when I honestly think it doesn't have to be like this. We don't have the greatest list - that is true, but these guys have shown that they are capable of dominating the ladder leaders for at least a majority of a footy match.

I doubt that the financial pressure the club is facing has a huge impact on player performance - as anyone who plays/ed footy knows, players play for each other first and foremost (despite what supporters think) - the supporters are important too, but the effort is put in for the team - If players cared to much about what we think they would not be able to get out of bed. One thing that definately has a huge impact on player performance is the coach - whose ultimate purpose is to be there to inspire and direct on field performances. Pagan may be useful for player development on the track and helping to settle the petulance of young players, but match day coaching is another issue.

I am grateful to Pagan for saving Fev and his obvious work with Simpson, but he is just too expensive to justify retaining in light of his inability to generate onfield success. To those who think that pushes to get rid of Pagan are motivated by naivety and foolishness, don't be so quick to judge: Pagan is a sage of the football world - his wisdom and experience is undoubted - but his or his assitants' decisions during match time are commonly illogical - My frustration stems from knowing that every time the boys start to fire, run together and link up their play - Pagan et al will change something structurally to stymie this.

I understand your frustrations. I don't want to sit in the cellar any longer than we have to.
Just ask yourself one question - do you really believe that we have a talented list and that its the coaches fault for not "inspiring them" enough on match day?
Maybe it the coaches fault for not making the vital moves that may have won us games (any examples???)

Without getting too nit picky there have been two general patterns for many of our games this year.

The slow start and try and real em in one (Port, Freo x 2, Hawks, Saints/Adelaide - wihtout the realing in bit, ?? I'm sure there more) - players fault for not being switched on or coaches fault for not pumping them up?
Have heard numerous coaches (Malthouse, Sheedy and Frawly) comment on this experience as players and coaches and none of them can put their finger on why sides go out and are flat - personally I think its players and teams spirit. Sticks never came out flat - he had the burn inside to die for his teammate evrytime he went out there. Thats what we are missing and it can't be taught - you need leaders inthe team that make the players want to die for you, the will run/shepheard, miss a target but sprint to the contest and win it back/ hustle hustle hustle.
Not surprisingly 2/3 wins came this year after stirring words from Sticks either before the game (Essendon) or at half time (Melbourne 2nd win). Kouta is a good captain - not a great one, braddles the same. They just don't inspire their teamamtes to die for the footy. Nick won't either, nor Fev at present, but big red might - needs to be more vocal and physical on the field though.

The second type of game this year has been the stay with em for 3/4 then get pushed aside (West Coast, Doggies, Maggies for 1/2, Dons draw excluding Eddie, Swans, Hawks 1st game ?? prob others)
This type of loss is much harder to watch (less cheering in the 4th Q), but much easier to understand.
Players win a contest in defence, everyone runs forward, player X (lets call him......Nick) misses target going forward. Now all the guys that have tried to run and support are 5-10m at least from their man, and have to turn and chase but. Legends down back keep the constant flood at bay as the clutsy midfielders hit 50% of targets, kicking enough goals to stay in it. Midfielders get reall tired from the constant turning to chase, get abused over the fence for not manning up - the guys they just ran forward off.
More efficient and fitter team in 4th quarter runs over the top of a spent midfield.

Coaches fault??? Skills training is important, but the ability to hit a target over 20m away (hopefully closer to 40-50m) on the run under pressure is NOT a skill, its a gift. Not many players have it, and you can't teach it. You draft it - enter Murphey and Gibbs, Scotland, Stevens before this year, Lance, Fev (watch him deliver from a wing or CHF - how much passing prctice do you think he does compared to Bentick - min I would suggest, but he's got the gift, Bentick/carazzo etc don't - hence they are low picks).

Sorry I'm going on again, but understand, we are working on a low skill base, and no amount of juggling, or inspirational words will bring sustained success - only drafting more skillful players into the midfield.

[Johnny_3]

I think pagan is on thin ice, with word from inside the club saying he is unwanted and that players do not want to play under him only trying to win important/milestone games... On the radio this morning it also said Silvagni and Ratten were looking for coaching gigs

[Bluebear]

I think pagan is on thin ice, with word from inside the club saying he is unwanted and that players do not want to play under him only trying to win important/milestone games... On the radio this morning it also said Silvagni and Ratten were looking for coaching gigs

You think? What you have reported here is what other people think. What is your opinion?
Amazing what airplay the thoughts of the cleaners at the CFC get - or will you name the alleged source from "inside the club". Front desk receptionist or carpark attendents don't count.

This really isn't meant to sound like a personal attack, just back up your rumours - otherwise we become Geelong or Richmond

[audas]

:rolleyes: My frustration stems from knowing that every time the boys start to fire, run together and link up their play - Pagan et al will change something structurally to stymie this.

Hard thing tanking discreetly. Pagan is a freakin legend and the blues are going to do bloody well thanks to him.
Good on'ya pagan. It takes the absolute best in the land to win a flag, expecially multiple ones as brisbane showed. The only way to get that talent is finsih last, we have, we get what we need, and go forth and win the flags. For those that hate the losing feeling and feel that tanking is completely wrong, fine, but you'll be the first to jump on the Murphy, Kennedy, Gibbs etc bandwagon when we start winning.
Then again if Pagan goes, it will be the new coach who turned it around, not the half dozen guns we recruited.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Bluebear]

Hard thing tanking discreetly. Pagan is a freakin legend and the blues are going to do bloody well thanks to him.
Good on'ya pagan. It takes the absolute best in the land to win a flag, expecially multiple ones as brisbane showed. The only way to get that talent is finsih last, we have, we get what we need, and go forth and win the flags. For those that hate the losing feeling and feel that tanking is completely wrong, fine, but you'll be the first to jump on the Murphy, Kennedy, Gibbs etc bandwagon when we start winning.
Then again if Pagan goes, it will be the new coach who turned it around, not the half dozen guns we recruited.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Actually the only way to do this these days is to have a salary cap that allows you to keep the calibre of midfield that they had - or cheat (we know all about that, so do the Dons, but of course the didn't get crucified for it)

[celtic_pride]

Excuse me but in what other sporting code in the world would a coach keep his job after coaching his side to two last place finishes in two years ?
Sorry but in any other business Pagan would have been sacked for the results he has shown thus far.
I don't think we could do any worse under Harvey or any other qualified assistant coach IE John Longmire is also an good option.

[Bluebear]

Excuse me but in what other sporting code in the world would a coach keep his job after coaching his side to two last place finishes in two years ?
Sorry but in any other business Pagan would have been sacked for the results he has shown thus far.
I don't think we could do any worse under Harvey or any other qualified assistant coach IE John Longmire is also an good option.

I see. So Pagan was supposed to have magical powers that amazingly got a list that had been driven hard into the ground, and turn them into champions.
Your business analogy assumes that it has been Pagan's mistakes that hace led to this situation. ITS NOT HIS FAULT.
John Elliot did more to hurt this club in his last couple of years than he EVER did to help the club.
The AFL made sure that we learnt our lesson and sent a message to the other clubs - we are still paying for that, and if we lose patience and shoot the coach we prove ourselves to be ignorant, short sighted and worst of all, no better than Richmond, Melbourne, St Kild, and all the others who eat their own at the first sign of trouble.

Next year WILL be better. 8-10 wins, barring key injuries (Fev, Lance, Murph, Gibbs)

The year after that our young KPP will have 3-4 years under their belts and with our gun midfield we will be playing finals in 2008/2009.
Who do you want to coach the blues in a final?
Pagan, or Harvey or SOS.

Give me Pagan - with the right cattle he will win us a flag.
He is developing a list which means sometimes you leave a guy ina position to teach him something rather than drag him at the first sign of trouble (this can go too far of course- Zac Dawson spring to mind).

You bring on young guys too soon to get mauled and they turn out like Livo. He is doing a well measured job and we are progressing - not in results but certainly in performance. Anyone who goes week in/out cannot dispute this.
The business you are looking for to compare is Telstra. We will win a flag when Telstra's share price hits $6.

[deluxeman]

Excuse me but in what other sporting code in the world would a coach keep his job after coaching his side to two last place finishes in two years ?
Sorry but in any other business Pagan would have been sacked for the results he has shown thus far.
I don't think we could do any worse under Harvey or any other qualified assistant coach IE John Longmire is also an good option.

They might not do any worse but the footy club will 1.5 million dollars worse for it.

If money wasn't an issue, I'd agree that he should go but 1.5 million is not something we can give away at the moment.

[jj1978]

I don't believe the Players are against Pagan. I think their slight drop in form the last two weeks is more from just being deflated from a long season without much luck.

I hope the club during the break and pre-season looks at working on our players mental states as much as skills and physical. With Adelaide I think what Craig has done well is instill a strong mental aspect in his players and that has been part of the success.

When your head is screwed on properly success follows as can be seen with Fev.

[RiteBak@Ya]

I see. So Pagan was supposed to have magical powers that amazingly got a list that had been driven hard into the ground, and turn them into champions.
Your business analogy assumes that it has been Pagan's mistakes that hace led to this situation. ITS NOT HIS FAULT.
John Elliot did more to hurt this club in his last couple of years than he EVER did to help the club.


You are 100% right about Elliot. We are still feeling the pain for the loss of Wells, Goddard possibly a Brock Mclean and a few other picks.

We would not have gone out to shop for 2nd rate players that have got us nowhere. With the loss of the picks we were always going to be down for atleast 5 years. No coach could change the position we are in.

In saying that, 'I just dont like Pagan', Can't put my finger on why. Not sure whether he inspires the players, not sure of his tactical ability, not sure of his innovative abilities.

We are stuck with him for another 2 years and shoulf fulfill his contract. If he can get the team in the eight in that timeframe he may prove his worth.

[Effes]

I see. So Pagan was supposed to have magical powers that amazingly got a list that had been driven hard into the ground, and turn them into champions.
Your business analogy assumes that it has been Pagan's mistakes that hace led to this situation. ITS NOT HIS FAULT.
John Elliot did more to hurt this club in his last couple of years than he EVER did to help the club.
The AFL made sure that we learnt our lesson and sent a message to the other clubs - we are still paying for that, and if we lose patience and shoot the coach we prove ourselves to be ignorant, short sighted and worst of all, no better than Richmond, Melbourne, St Kild, and all the others who eat their own at the first sign of trouble.

Next year WILL be better. 8-10 wins, barring key injuries (Fev, Lance, Murph, Gibbs)

The year after that our young KPP will have 3-4 years under their belts and with our gun midfield we will be playing finals in 2008/2009.
Who do you want to coach the blues in a final?
Pagan, or Harvey or SOS.

Give me Pagan - with the right cattle he will win us a flag.
He is developing a list which means sometimes you leave a guy ina position to teach him something rather than drag him at the first sign of trouble (this can go too far of course- Zac Dawson spring to mind).

You bring on young guys too soon to get mauled and they turn out like Livo. He is doing a well measured job and we are progressing - not in results but certainly in performance. Anyone who goes week in/out cannot dispute this.
The business you are looking for to compare is Telstra. We will win a flag when Telstra's share price hits $6.
Everyone talks about the duds on our list - but look at who drafted most of them!

[Jimthegreat]

Hard thing tanking discreetly. Pagan is a freakin legend and the blues are going to do bloody well thanks to him.
Good on'ya pagan. It takes the absolute best in the land to win a flag, expecially multiple ones as brisbane showed. The only way to get that talent is finsih last, we have, we get what we need, and go forth and win the flags. For those that hate the losing feeling and feel that tanking is completely wrong, fine, but you'll be the first to jump on the Murphy, Kennedy, Gibbs etc bandwagon when we start winning.
Then again if Pagan goes, it will be the new coach who turned it around, not the half dozen guns we recruited.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:That's funny watching people defend the indefensible. We'll win less than last year's emabrrassment, with individuals who have certainly kicked on. Individual improve for various reasosn, expecially, not necessarily all related to coaching (experience, size, maturity, training simply make you better). Pity we haven't kicked on as a team, that part being the coach's job. Backs to back spoons going from 10 wins to 4 wins to 3 wins since 2004 certainly tells me something. Are you smart enough for it to tell you something?

[Jimthegreat]

You are 100% right about Elliot. We are still feeling the pain for the loss of Wells, Goddard possibly a Brock Mclean and a few other picks.

We would not have gone out to shop for 2nd rate players that have got us nowhere. With the loss of the picks we were always going to be down for atleast 5 years. No coach could change the position we are in.

In saying that, 'I just dont like Pagan', Can't put my finger on why. Not sure whether he inspires the players, not sure of his tactical ability, not sure of his innovative abilities.

We are stuck with him for another 2 years and shoulf fulfill his contract. If he can get the team in the eight in that timeframe he may prove his worth.

In 2002 we got Simmo and Fisher, who we probably wouldn't have got if we got Goddard and Wells. I happy to say we did well out of that. Not to mention Walker and Stevo in 2003. Draft picks excuses are are cop-out. Might be stuck with him for just another 2 weeks hopefully the way things are sounding. We win less games each year, why? Shouldn't we win more if our players are improving? You like the idea of crap for another 2 years.

[RiteBak@Ya]

In 2002 we got Simmo and Fisher, who we probably wouldn't have got if we got Goddard and Wells. I happy to say we did well out of that. Not to mention Walker and Stevo in 2003. Draft picks excuses are are cop-out. Might be stuck with him for just another 2 weeks hopefully the way things are sounding. We win less games each year, why? Shouldn't we win more if our players are improving? You like the idea of crap for another 2 years.

You have no idea!

We would have had Goddard and Wells + 2 Round Pick + (Simmo and Fisher), The following year we would have had Brock Mclean at pick 5 to go with Walker + 2 round. Stephens would have been there regardless

We would have had 5 top 20 picks, instead we got rejects from other clubs who are delisted or playing 2's. A cop out - your kidding yourself. I dont think where at the bottom of the cycle yet, we have just come back into the draft. You expect Walker, Kennedy and Murphy to get us in the finals this year??

Where do you think Judd, Reiwoldt, Hodge, Ball ect came from- Did the coach give birth to them are something? Your a joke!

Whats your solution. You got the $1.5M to payout. No.

[itsintheblood]

Harvey is a brain dead moron ...I'd prefer Danny Frawley to him


Trust me, no you wouldn't

[SurreyBlue]

Trust me, no you wouldn't

Dear God, why are you posting or more importantly even reading Carlton sites.:D Common IITB, admit it, your a closet Carlton supporter.

[Bluebear]

In 2002 we got Simmo and Fisher, who we probably wouldn't have got if we got Goddard and Wells. I happy to say we did well out of that. Not to mention Walker and Stevo in 2003. Draft picks excuses are are cop-out. Might be stuck with him for just another 2 weeks hopefully the way things are sounding. We win less games each year, why? Shouldn't we win more if our players are improving? You like the idea of crap for another 2 years.

Cop Out??????

Firstly, as pointed out already, the picks you mention (Fisher and Simpson) would still have been available.

Even if they weren't, are you seriously saying that you would rather have Fisher than Goddard???
One has become a handy HFF with potential, but is injury prone. The other this year became one of the most consistent HBF in the league, has alomst as good hands over head, and hurts teams with his long kicks (drool, drool). Don't get me wrong, I love Fisher, but if he was put up for a straight swap with Goddard, where do I sign????

Jury is out on Wells - had a great year last year and before that, but I think Laidley has tried to use him like we have Walker, or McLeod. It hasn't worked, and Simo is progressing well - but isn't a match winner - Wells is, and we desperately lack match winners.

If you measure a teams improvement by premiership point then yes, we have not improved. But what would you prefer - keep medium level players on the list, win 8-10 games like we did a couple of years ago, but lack the talent to progress (see any Thread on Tigers website in last ten years to understand the frustrations associated with this ploy), or play kids in a considered way, and watch them go from being beaten badly most weeks (last year) to being competitive most weeks (this year) and gradually keep riding that wave.

I have seen no-one produce EVIDENCE that the coach is doing a bad job - and before you reply see previous postings regarding draft picks and skill level of players. Also read other threads regarding player motivation - these are not the coaches fault.
I want to win to, flags, not "best team outside the 8".
Pgan is building that list, and its not far away.

[bibi01]

All this talk frustrates the hell out of me. Can anyone genuinelysit back and say its Pagans fault???
Is it Pagan's fault that we:
- constantly traded away early round picks for "ready made" players?
- were corrupt in our player payments leading to the first real attempt to kill a club since Fitzroy. Those weren't penalties, they were an assassination attempt!!!!!
- Is it his fault that Nick Stevens can't hit targets or pressure his opponenet anymore.

Again I make the point - look at the teams that have visited the blunt end of the ladder in recent years - Roos, Doggies, Pies, Tigers, Melbourne. With no draft penalties they have had varying degrees of success and apart from the Tiges (and Hawks - losers), have bounced up quickly from being at the bottom.
We have had 1 good draft year (our own fault for being successful in 2004). That was last year, and listen to the buzz about Josh and Marc. If they were coming in to a list that wasn't shredded by poor policy of previous admins (i.e. recruit players with 3-4 years of limited active service left) then it would be a different story.They come into a depleted list that is building from the bottom up - the only other club to hit these levels and do what we are doing was St Kilda late 99-2001. Look at them now - they are the model we should loo kat for were we are headed.

Before we get to caught up in why Dennis can't magically improve the skills of these players lets look at the success stories - and ask what other coach would have had these results:
Brendon Fevola - under ANY other coach (except maybe Malthouse) Fev would have been traded/sacked/otherwise disposed of. I have no doubt his resurgence as a player is due soley to Dennis (who didn't improve his skills - just his head).
Simpson/Walker/Betts/Bentick........loads of young guns with varying degrees of talent.

Understand this - players are taken in the draft in an order for a reason. SKILL.
If it was that easy to teach players everyone would be doing it and no-one would miss targets. That kind of skill is learbed early and has a lot to do with natural ability. Some guys can work their ass off to become a good skillful player (Brett Ratten) but it takes time and effort. Others are born with it (Campo, Fev, Mark Waugh) and never have to work that hard to improve their skills - just their heads - if their heads are right the rest takes care of itself.

Pagan is about to get his FIRST shot at coaching a skillful group of players next year with the new draft. He has done an amazing job to get the most out of guys with minimal talent to just compete.

Honestly, you guys start to sound like Richmond supporters with this kind of stuff. I just hope that the current board don't listen to a fw vocal members who don't have a clue and are just impatient, and they panick, do somthing stupid and bugger us for another 4-5 years.

KEEP DENNIS - let me hera ya sing, KEEP DENNIS
very good post Bluebear

pagan is not perfect but who is?
at the end of the day pagan may not get the success or reward he deserves for the hard work he is putting in and all the obsticals he has faced

more than likely when he is replaced, the new coach will come in and will only have to add the finishing touches to a team pagan has built and groomed for success.

pagan is developing the kids, he is teaching them about being complete footballers rather than a specialist players, he and the club are doing it tough but the club will rise again and weather we like it or not pagan will deserve credit for our rise, he along with the players are doing the hard work required to build success. lets remeber true success is never instant.

pagan had the chance to jump off carlton but he made a decision to stick fat and try and get the club out of its dismal position, unlike the 5000 members who jumped off and did not re sign.

[Bluebear]

very good post Bluebear

pagan is not perfect but who is?
at the end of the day pagan may not get the success or reward he deserves for the hard work he is putting in and all the obsticals he has faced

more than likely when he is replaced, the new coach will come in and will only have to add the finishing touches to a team pagan has built and groomed for success.

pagan is developing the kids, he is teaching them about being complete footballers rather than a specialist players, he and the club are doing it tough but the club will rise again and weather we like it or not pagan will deserve credit for our rise, he along with the players are doing the hard work required to build success. lets remeber true success is never instant.

pagan had the chance to jump off carlton but he made a decision to stick fat and try and get the club out of its dismal position, unlike the 5000 members who jumped off and did not re sign.

Here here!!! Time to get back on boys - the Murph express is taking off next year!

[TheGeneral]

Luke Darcy would be a great acquisition for any club as an assistant coach going by his special comments. :thumbsu: