Screwed Over, Imagine

[Johnny_3]

Imagine Goddard and Wells in blues jumpers
Imagine just that 1 wooden spoon and not the 3 we are going to get...
This wouldve been the case if we weren't SCREWN OVER

thoughts?

[sydney eagle]

Imagine if the people who ran Carlton had adhered to the rules ! If Carlton have been "screwed over" it has to be remembered that it was their OWN administration that did the screwing.

[bluegal1983]

Imagine if the people who ran Carlton had adhered to the rules ! If Carlton have been "screwed over" it has to be remembered that it was their OWN administration that did the screwing.

You are right, however the AFL would never have thought it would have screwed us so royally! If another club are stupid enough to follow in Carlton's footsteps, the AFL would not penalise them nearly as harshly as they penalised the Carlton Footy Club!

[The Old Dark Navy's]

There's the rub I guess. The AFL had to penalise us to a point where it would hurt us. They probably had no way of knowing how bad our list was and how bad our finances were.

If it was a club that was known for struggling, their parameters on what would hurt would probably have been set lower.

We paid the price for thumbing our noses and acting as though we could buy and sell everyone .. a false air of superiority if you like. One draft and 200k was probably what we could afford in reality.

The other issue is that when the AFL investigated for previous years breaches we were sitting in the plum position for draft picks. The cost to us was a lot more than two years in the draft, it was the nature of the picks we missed out on that killed us. Other teams have been penalised but it isn't as bad if you are in the top 8 or middle of the table because the players you miss are not guaranteed players anyway.

Losing #1, #2 in 2002 and #5 in 2003 are tantamount to 3-4 years penalties easily in terms of the quality of pick.

Fortunately Goddard and Wells have yet to become the stars they threatened to become. Just good players at this stage.

[Effes]

Imagine Goddard and Wells in blues jumpers
Imagine just that 1 wooden spoon and not the 3 we are going to get...
This wouldve been the case if we weren't SCREWN OVER

thoughts?
We cheated, and got the appropriate penatly

Why blame the AFL? I hate them as much as any other Carlton supporter but we CHEATED.

[Sticks 4]

We cheated, and got the appropriate penatly

Why blame the AFL? I hate them as much as any other Carlton supporter but we CHEATED.
sadly, agree. We did the crime, now we're doing the time.

[HBF]

Imagine Goddard and Wells in blues jumpers
Imagine just that 1 wooden spoon and not the 3 we are going to get...
This wouldve been the case if we weren't SCREWN OVER

thoughts?

We did the crime, not once, not twice, but three times we were caught cheating the salary cap, and the AFL had to make a stand. Perhaps in hindsight they were heavy handed, but at the time, they had to be. Even though we were "suspended" from 2 drafts, I believe it cost us about 5 years of success.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and we just have to be patient. The club will turn around, and when it does, it will be all the sweeter as we have been through the very bad times.

[Da Bull]

We did the crime, not once, not twice, but three times we were caught cheating the salary cap, and the AFL had to make a stand. Perhaps in hindsight they were heavy handed, but at the time, they had to be. Even though we were "suspended" from 2 drafts, I believe it cost us about 5 years of success.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and we just have to be patient. The club will turn around, and when it does, it will be all the sweeter as we have been through the very bad times.


Gotta love an optimist!!!;)

[2ndeffort]

How many times do we have to go through this. JE screwed the club over and when the rest of us found out about it we did somthing about it in voting him out. I accept that the AFL had to show a strong hand etc, but what is a footy club. Sure there are players and administrators, but for the most part it is punters like me who stump up for memberships and turn up to games.

Without our hard earned there would be no club, there'd be no clubs in fact and no competition. What did I and the other 30K members do to deserve the massive penalties? Well I dont know about the rest of you, but I wasnt on JE's distribution list and wasnt aware we were doing it until the AFL was handing down the judgements

The upshot of this is that an elected club representative broke the rules of the competition in his dealings with players, I dare say he exceeded the authority given to him by the club members in his dealings. We trusted him to run our club, perhaps naively, and he betrayed that trust. The AFL should have penalised him and any of the administrators etc that helped him. Instead of giving us draft penalties, the AFL should have had JE charged and taken him to court for professional misconduct.

Obviously they cant/wont do that so the rest of the club, yes that means you and me, get to live on through the penalties. Sure I accept that the supporters of other clubs like to wallow in our misfortune, if the same happened to the filth I'd never let them forget it, but realistically none of us did anything wrong and the bloke that did got a slap on the d1ck with a wet bootlace and moved on to greener pastures.

I pay no notice when fans of other clubs take a shot at us, hell that's what I do them back. But lets not start getting all introspective and forgiving about this, we were collectively done over and the bloke that brought it all on skipped out of dodge scott free leaving the rest of us to pick up the pieces.

[Bronx Bomber]

We cheated, and got the appropriate penatly

Why blame the AFL? I hate them as much as any other Carlton supporter but we CHEATED.

Agree. We cheated. We got caught. Now we're paying the price.

[Jimthegreat]

Imagine Goddard and Wells in blues jumpers
Imagine just that 1 wooden spoon and not the 3 we are going to get...
This wouldve been the case if we weren't SCREWN OVER

thoughts?Don't think Goddard and Wells would have got us off the bottom. In our team, the way it's been going, they would have been another two outside players who would've become "bagging" material by feral supporters. It's not as if they're superstars, or even close. If we had've got them, would we have taken Simmo and Fisher lower down in the same draft? Probably not. Mindset may have been different and we may have got the usual duds, or even passeed at pick 72 instead. Might have been nice to get all 4 of them, but I'm thinking we would have gone a different way with the later picks. Give me the choice now of Simmo or either of Goddard and Wells and I would take Simmo anyday, easily.

We may have been harshly treated but we did cheat the system.

[Johnny_3]

Don't think Goddard and Wells would have got us off the bottom. In our team, the way it's been going, they would have been another two outside players who would've become "bagging" material by feral supporters. It's not as if they're superstars, or even close. If we had've got them, would we have taken Simmo and Fisher lower down in the same draft? Probably not. Mindset may have been different and we may have got the usual duds, or even passeed at pick 72 instead. Might have been nice to get all 4 of them, but I'm thinking we would have gone a different way with the later picks. Give me the choice now of Simmo or either of Goddard and Wells and I would take Simmo anyday, easily.

We may have been harshly treated but we did cheat the system.
we cheated... no we didnt.. john elliot and the rest of the scum involved did and wells and goddard can and will be superstars, i was just hoping they would be in carlton jumpers

[AlecDuncan]

we cheated... no we didnt.. john elliot and the rest of the scum involved did...
Well we left him in charge for twenty years, so we're responsible too - and I count myself in that.

It took a wooden spoon for everyone to get off their a4ses and vote. Better late than never.

It's too easy to say JE did everything, and there's no reason to punish us. That's a cop-out. We gave him the keys, we're responsible for the dings. By all means hold it against the guy (and while you are, remember that two of the cups in the cupboard come with his legacy), but we can't weasel out of our responsibilities - not that anyone would let us anyway.

As to whether our whack was too harsh, well we'll know when the next club gets caught doing the same thing.

[Bronx Bomber]

As to whether our whack was too harsh, well we'll know when the next club gets caught doing the same thing.

I don't think there will be another club. They have seen what the AFL did to Carlton and they realise that it will be them if they go down that path.

Our penalty has done what it was intended to do, and that's ward other clubs away from comptemplating doing the same thing.

[trueblue_91]

We did cheat and we deserved to be penalised. But i thought it was a bit too harsh.

But if we did have wells and goddard we probably wouldn't have finished last these years. The players we have picked up in murphy Kennedy and probably gibbs in my oppinion could be much better then wells and goddard

[as0l0]

(and while you are, remember that two of the cups in the cupboard come with his legacy)
*thumbs up*

[Jeremias]

And if we hadn't have cheated, we probably wouldn't have got Simpson and Fisher.

I would prefer Simpson and Fisher to Goddard and Wells. No use crying over spilt milk. We have moved on and are looking forward to the undoubtedly bright future.

[Effes]

I would prefer Simpson and Fisher to Goddard and Wells.

http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/images/smilies/smilielol.gif


I can't understand why so many Carlton supporters say this........are you trying to rationalise to yourself that the draft penalties haven't affected us as much as the AFL hoped?

Have you seen Fisher's footskills?

[Blue Boys11]

I believe Chambers and Teague have been screwed over. Played great footy down at the ants but for what. Nothing. Give them a go.

[Jimthegreat]

http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/images/smilies/smilielol.gif


I can't understand why so many Carlton supporters say this........are you trying to rationalise to yourself that the draft penalties haven't affected us as much as the AFL hoped?

Have you seen Fisher's footskills?

Have you seen his marking skills. The best contested marks going for his size. That's like gold. Footskills can be worked on, ask Stewie Loewe, who initially, for a few years, was one sh1t kick. That answer your question.

[Jimthegreat]

we cheated... no we didnt.. john elliot and the rest of the scum involved did and wells and goddard can and will be superstars, i was just hoping they would be in carlton jumpersNot convinced about superstars. Goddard, is not a hard player, never has an oppoenent and is very much an outside player getting cheap kicks (some are big kicks like his goals at Subi last week). We already have a sh1tload of those. We did better in the end with what we got. Then the next year we got Walker as a PP and Stevo as a PSD, more than adequate replacements for picks in the first 2 rounds, what 13-14 sides got anyway, athough if they were "bonus" picks instead that would've been nice.

Unfortunately, yes, Jack cheated, but unfortunately to he was our President at the time, which means we cheated.

[Effes]

Have you seen his marking skills. The best contested marks going for his size. That's like gold. Footskills can be worked on, ask Stewie Loewe, who initially, for a few years, was one sh1t kick. That answer your question.

Didn't have much impact on the weekend

Did you see who Fisher's opponent was?

I'll give you a hint.............he was BOG

[Jimthegreat]

Didn't have much impact on the weekend

Did you see who Fisher's opponent was?

I'll give you a hint.............he was BOG

Didn't he take a real bad knock very early, go off then come back and still do pretty well. Took quite a few marks, 9 in fact, and his aren't usually cheap one's. He's just starting to do ok this year given the run of injuries. I think you'll find he's a pretty decent player and with his terrific marking ability making him one pr1ck of a match-up.

Anyway, even using your theory, that's one week. If we judge every player and every team on one week no-one would be any good and no team would win the flag as we all have bad ones.

[TheGeneral]

Have you seen his marking skills. The best contested marks going for his size. That's like gold. Footskills can be worked on, ask Stewie Loewe, who initially, for a few years, was one sh1t kick. That answer your question.
No, it doesn't it.

You're putting up a hypothetical that Fisher will improve his kicking and saying this makes him a better player than Wells or Goddard now.

It doesn't.

It's a bit like saying if Walker is played on the ball and improves his kicking he's better than Cooney right now.

Did you see Goddard's ball burster on the weekend or Wells' mid air goal a few years back?

They're good but they're not better than Wells and Goddard.

And I don't think he's judging Fisher on one game and I think he would have seen his marking skills.

[Lukesta63]

Johnny 3 move on mate or it'll eat you up.
I'm as dirty as anyone about the penalties and how limp wristed the club dealt with the AFL in the ensuing period.I.E Collo telling players to come clean and they'll go easy on us blah,blah,blah!!

Mate forget it now and worry about our current problems.
Any win these days is so much the sweeter because of where we have come from.
I'll tell you my little secret....all the sh4t we are copping and have copped is fermenting away ,and boy is it going to stink when I throw it back at certain supporters starting with "The Filth " on Sunday.

We can only get better (that's all the new age optimism you'll get from me )

[Bluebear]

We did cheat and we deserved to be penalised. But i thought it was a bit too harsh.

But if we did have wells and goddard we probably wouldn't have finished last these years. The players we have picked up in murphy Kennedy and probably gibbs in my oppinion could be much better then wells and goddard

:thumbsu: Agreed.

I just think we need a little perspective on this. It wasn't just the multiple salary cap breaches and ensuing penalties that has cost our club. It was also the resistance to change.
Sit back and really take a look at what a wonderful being the draft is - remove the anomaly (Brisbane for receving a whole footy club to rake through plus extra cash to keep stars).
The clubs that are in the worst position now are the clubs that were the most successful in the 90's - Us, Dons, Hawks (o.k 80's), Roos.

We didn't have the benefit of early picks then, and choose to trade them away hoping for sustained success - almost worked for Us and Dons, but sooner or later that catches up with you.
In the next five years you will see a much more obvious pattern of every club getting a shot, a window of 2-3 years of being really great (this has already happened to port under this system), before dropping away, rebuilding and having another shot.
We have been delayed on that journey for a few years by the penalties, but we will be great again, and also crap again.

That is the way of the draft - and if they ever make this comp a truly even playing field (e.g. salary caps and rookie lists, access to facilities) then this trend will be emphasised even more.

This is also why I am happy to loose (or at worst draw) with the Pies on Sunday.
We want.......no..... we need Gibbs, and 2 more of the top 20 so that when we get our chance one of these guys will be a match winner and we will take our chance.

Win this week, don;t get Gibbs, and only 1 other top 20 (maybe a dud) and we are headed for mediocrity (we become Richmond - and with the "sack the coach" mentality that runs through some of these threads - we alomst already have!)

[Bluebear]

I believe Chambers and Teague have been screwed over. Played great footy down at the ants but for what. Nothing. Give them a go.

Teague has played well in the two's - been elevated before, and neede a map to find his opponent - gone for all money.
Chambers has been a disappointment - not taken his chances (admitedly few and far between), doesn't have good enough pace for a midfileder - maybe should be tried on HBF? Prob traid bait or gone as well.

[WalkerTexasRanger]

we cheated... no we didnt.. john elliot and the rest of the scum involved did and wells and goddard can and will be superstars, i was just hoping they would be in carlton jumpers

I still reckon Fisher and Simpson have more to give than Goddard and Wells. Hopefully Fish doesn't get any more serious injuries because I love the way he plays and boy can he pull down a grab with those inspector gadget arms!:thumbsu: What has Wells really done apart from one freak goal a couple of years ago. He is one of the most inconsistent (and quickest yes - I have seen him play quite a few Nth games not against Carlton and have not been impressed - he is quite lazy in fact) players going round and doesn't have the heart of Fish who is a skinny kid, but who puts his body on the line everytime - leads up the ground and can kick goals (kicked 3 straight against Mel in Rd 18). The poor kid has had some bad luck with a full ACL reco in 2003 (only Fev has elastic knee ligaments) and a shoulder reco this year. His goal kicking hasn't been too good this year, but he has a fair bit of nerves in front of goals still - it is not his technique as such. Most commentators know how much this kid will show in years to come - and we would probably be able to see more of it if we didn't have a top heavy forward line and if hadn't has these unfortunate injuries. LOVE THA FISH And Simpson - well I reckon he has shown the most improvement this year of any player at Carlton - Goddard is good, but he has a lot more support than our boys at the moment.

[WalkerTexasRanger]

Teague has played well in the two's - been elevated before, and neede a map to find his opponent - gone for all money.
Chambers has been a disappointment - not taken his chances (admitedly few and far between), doesn't have good enough pace for a midfileder - maybe should be tried on HBF? Prob traid bait or gone as well.

Bizarre isn't it? Chambers looked to be a good prospect during '05 Wizard Cup - breaking through the centre for those 9 pointers. Never able to translate that to a decent performance in season proper. I like Teague's guts, but he looks a bit slow and lost at times. Would make a pretty decent back pocket perhaps, probably too slow for HB flank though, but I give him props for his courage.

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I still reckon Fisher and Simpson have more to give than Goddard and Wells. Hopefully Fish doesn't get any more serious injuries because I love the way he plays and boy can he pull down a grab with those inspector gadget arms!:thumbsu: What has Wells really done apart from one freak goal a couple of years ago. He is one of the most inconsistent (and quickest yes - I have seen him play quite a few Nth games not against Carlton and have not been impressed - he is quite lazy in fact) players going round and doesn't have the heart of Fish who is a skinny kid, but who puts his body on the line everytime - leads up the ground and can kick goals (kicked 3 straight against Mel in Rd 18). The poor kid has had some bad luck with a full ACL reco in 2003 (only Fev has elastic knee ligaments) and a shoulder reco this year. His goal kicking hasn't been too good this year, but he has a fair bit of nerves in front of goals still - it is not his technique as such. Most commentators know how much this kid will show in years to come - and we would probably be able to see more of it if we didn't have a top heavy forward line and if hadn't has these unfortunate injuries. LOVE THA FISH And Simpson - well I reckon he has shown the most improvement this year of any player at Carlton - Goddard is good, but he has a lot more support than our boys at the moment.

im not sure if this is a joke or not but how can people say Fisher and Simpson are better then Goddard and Wells. Tell me 5 games when Fish has been in our top 4 or 5 players and Wells has been tagged for 4yrs now and still has more impact than Simmo. Now dont get me wrong they are two of my favorite players but we should have the four of them in our team.

As for our penalty i think it was the best thing that could have happened for the game. i doubt any team will ever do it again or at least get caught doing it after what they have seen happen to us.

[harmesy 37]

All very well accepting our punishment re the salary cap cheating - i think it is time to move forward as well......but i don't think the AFL properly thought about the repercussions. Their efforts to turn this club around this year to help out with the 7 million debt was a poor effort.

A loan - interest free - woooh! lets all celebrate. They could have made a real statement with something more generous.

This club is now a crippled club.



I will be surprised if the club will be around in 10 years time as it stands.
I hope I am wrong - but unless enough people buy membership, support optus and all the other sponsors and let them know, then we are heading down a slippery slope and the afl has little concern either. They are too concerned with Western Sydney to see the big picture. The big picture is having clubs with tradition. Get rid of them - whether it be carlton, geelong or hawthorn - and it is just another hokey pokey competition of little consequence.

[bluegal1983]

All very well accepting our punishment re the salary cap cheating - i think it is time to move forward as well......but i don't think the AFL properly thought about the repercussions. Their efforts to turn this club around this year to help out with the 7 million debt was a poor effort.

A loan - interest free - woooh! lets all celebrate. They could have made a real statement with something more generous.

This club is now a crippled club.

I will be surprised if the club will be around in 10 years time as it stands.
I hope I am wrong - but unless enough people buy membership, support optus and all the other sponsors and let them know, then we are heading down a slippery slope and the afl has little concern either. They are too concerned with Western Sydney to see the big picture. The big picture is having clubs with tradition. Get rid of them - whether it be carlton, geelong or hawthorn - and it is just another hokey pokey competition of little consequence.

This club is strong and will fight back to be bigger and better than ever! Once the wins start happening, members will sign up and stronger sponsors will also get on board. It is only a matter of time until this great Club is back on their feet!

[WalkerTexasRanger]

im not sure if this is a joke or not but how can people say Fisher and Simpson are better then Goddard and Wells. Tell me 5 games when Fish has been in our top 4 or 5 players and Wells has been tagged for 4yrs now and still has more impact than Simmo. Now dont get me wrong they are two of my favorite players but we should have the four of them in our team.

No jokes here. I am not saying that these lads are currently better than Goddard and Wells, but i think they will show more in time (probably because they are in the Navy Blue - can't help it). Admittedly I watch them with my one-eye.

Fish has had a tough time this year. He showed a lot of promise in his first year leading up to knee reco and last year with a couple of standout performances.

I don't rate stats as the most accurate measure of player performance, but the following may be of interest:

This year Simmo (Pick No. 45) has averaged 19.05 possessions, kicked 10 goals 7 behinds, 49 tackles and 136 marks. (we all know where we're placed)

Wells (Pick No. 2) has averaged 17.7 possies, kicked 11 goals 7, 49 tackles and 64 marks in the 13th placed team.

The Fish (Pick No.72) (despite missing rounds 2,3, 8-14) has averaged 8.3 possessions, kicked 6 goals ten, 7 tackles and 77 marks - not a great year, but half a season and a shoulder reco in the early-middle gives some perspective. As a KPF his stats are dependant upon delivery - which he has lacked.

Goddard (Pick No. 1) average of 19.9 possessions this year, kicked 9 goals 9, 62 tackles and 154 marks in a team that is placed 3rd(prior to the rest of round 21)

[Napolean]

I thought this article by Jake Niall in The Age pretty much summed the situation up.

http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2006/07/30/1154198013109.html

[Johnny_3]

i guess what pagan said in the above article might be true.... 3 yrs into a 5 yr sentence... i doubt that it will be any different what coach we had 2 more years we will be a good club. but back to the topic imagine this

B: Carazzo Thorton Russel
HB: Goddard Waite Sentanta
C: Simpson Murphy Wells
HF: Fisher Kennedy Betts
F: Whitnal Fevola Deluca
R: Bryan Gibbs Walker
IC: Blackwell Hoola Stevo LAppo Banister Aisake Wiggins Bentick