How many picks to use?

[RiteBak@Ya]

How many picks will we use in the November draft.

If we remain inactive in the trade period I would assume we would only use 5 in the National, 1 in the PSD. I dont think we will elevate rookies but will keep Baton. A.OHailpin and Jackson rookied.

This will mean 5 delistings with the retirment of French.

Any thoughts on delisting and trades?

[AlecDuncan]

How many picks will we use in the November draft.
It's possible that the club might trade Fisher if the right deal came along. However, I don't think that deal is coming this year. People are just too certain about the quality of this draft to deal away picks. And Fish is too good to give away for a late 2nd round pick.

I think there will be six delistings, plus Barney's retirement. So that means we'll use picks: 1, 17, 19, 35, 51, PSD-1, and promote a rookie, or: 1, 17, 19, 35, PSD-1, and promote two current rookies.

[AlecDuncan]

I think there will be six delistings, plus Barney's retirement. So that means we'll use picks: 1, 17, 19, 35, 51, PSD-1, and promote a rookie, or: 1, 17, 19, 35, PSD-1, and promote two current rookies.
I might add that if Jake Williams sets the G ablaze this weekend, I'll be very happy if we use that pick 35 for him.

[RiteBak@Ya]

It's possible that the club might trade Fisher if the right deal came along. However, I don't think that deal is coming this year. People are just too certain about the quality of this draft to deal away picks. And Fish is too good to give away for a late 2nd round pick.

I think there will be six delistings, plus Barney's retirement. So that means we'll use picks: 1, 17, 19, 35, 51, PSD-1, and promote a rookie, or: 1, 17, 19, 35, PSD-1, and promote two current rookies.

I think we can get away with listing Jackson, O'hailpin and Batson as rookies for another year.

I think we would get Williams at a later pick or has a rookie.

We need Fisher as a back up forward

[Blah Blah Blue]

I dont think we will elevate rookies but will keep Baton. A.OHailpin and Jackson rookied.

Ryan Jackson was promoted off the rookie list and played against Swans.
Don't beleive he would go back on, he really showed something.

[murphster]

Ryan Jackson was promoted off the rookie list and played against Swans.
Don't beleive he would go back on, he really showed something.

Yeah i think Jackson should stay on the senior list, i think he could develop pretty quickly next year into a reasonable player, i think we got a bargain there.:thumbsu:

[Lindy]

I dont really understan this draft thing........you only get a pick in the PSD if u pass in the 'real' draft? Does that go for the rookie draft as well.

[TOPBLUE_25]

I know this is sort of off topic but is there any chance of Batson playing in the Carlton side in 07?
Maybe he could play Ruck/Forward or is he just not good enough?

[Corrosion]

I would hate to see Jackson on the rookie list again. He showed some great skills and poise against the Swans.

I believe we should use picks 1, 17, 19, 35 and 51 in the draft, then use one pick in the Pre-season draft.

[whippersnipper]

Agree completely that Jackson should remain on the senior list, but what about Jesse Smith? Can he even go back onto the rookie list? If not, then I hate to say it, but I would delist him.

[Effes]

I don't care, as long as we don't use any to trade for any more rejects/'ruckmen' who aren't up to it. A large majority knew McLaren wasn't up to it last year yet the genuises still went ahead and wasted the #1 pick in the pre season draft on him. I don't want a repeat of Saddington/McLaren/Mott etc

[Bluebear]

A large majority knew McLaren wasn't up to it last year


Fire sale at crystal balls R US eh?

So what can you tell us about the current group of U18's, who do you "know" won't make it?

I'll make it easier for you and your retrospective ball.........once the trade week and drafts are done list lodgement is in I want your predictions, from our list of who you "know" won't make it.

We'll all take note so we can plan our year ahead.

Have you got some Tatts number for me too?:rolleyes:



I actually think trade week will be very quiet. Given the supposed depth of the draft this year clubs will be unlikely to part with a pick under 20.

[Effes]

Yeh.....the U18s have been in the AFL system for a number of years and have shown what they are capable of :rolleyes:

[Thunderstruck]

LOL. McLaren is a hack, anyone with good football knowledge would know this. Picking him up was mistake, just look at his earth shattering All Australian warranting performances :rolleyes: give me a break.

Drafting good kids is the way to go, recyled hacks just delay the rebuilding process, very rarely does a trade as such come off...and thats only for good players. Carlton arent exactly coming out on top in the recycling department.

There are a lot of respected and smart in-the-know posters on this forum who know what they are on about, and know who they are looking for. Take a look in the drafts and trading forum, plenty of info there. If there wasn't an Under 18's system the AFL would be shot. All of todays guns were once kids!

Identify them....DRAFT THEM.

[Pafloyul]

Taking only five selections in this draft is just inviting other clubs to grab some rough diamonds before we can get our hands on them. I think we should take closer to seven.

[TheGeneral]

Yep, I'd cut hard so we have at least six picks in this draft and grab a couple of late picks, preferably a ruckman and a quickish type who is bottom aged. Matt White and Laidlaw instead of Saddington and Mclaren should have been the go last year but apparently we weren't even going to use pick 58. :confused:

[Bluebear]

LOL. McLaren is a hack, anyone with good football knowledge would know this. Picking him up was mistake, just look at his earth shattering All Australian warranting performances :rolleyes: give me a break.


There are a lot of respected and smart in-the-know posters on this forum who know what they are on about, and know who they are looking for. Take a look in the drafts and trading forum, plenty of info there. If there wasn't an Under 18's system the AFL would be shot. All of todays guns were once kids!

Identify them....DRAFT THEM.

More 20/20 hindsight........I guess everyone saw Rutten's injury coming too right...y'know, being a ruckman and all, I just KNEW he would get a knee injury. Oh, hey while I'm at it I just KNEW Goodes would get the brownlow.:rolleyes:

HEY D#CKHEADS...................PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE OLD DARK NAVEY'S...............TYPE "I THOUGHT".........YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING - YOU SUSPECTED, THOUGHT, etc..........:mad:

By the way all of todays hacks were kids once too..............that would have to get a vote as one of the most meaningless statements I've ever read.:p

Drafting isn't an exact science.

I hate this time of year.:thumbsu:

[Gilly1972]

Yep, I'd cut hard so we have at least six picks in this draft and grab a couple of late picks, preferably a ruckman and a quickish type who is bottom aged. Matt White and Laidlaw instead of Saddington and Mclaren should have been the go last year but apparently we weren't even going to use pick 58. :confused:

Cyph, that's the most sense you've made in a post for a while, are you feeling ok?? good job :D :p

[Pafloyul]

I wanted Todd Grima and Luke McEntee.

[TheGeneral]

Cyph, that's the most sense you've made in a post for a while, are you feeling ok?? good job :D :p
They weren't my picks because I only read the opinions of the posters who know what they're talking about. ;) :o

Mojo rated Thomas and Laidlaw last year and I think he was right to say we should have gone for kids in the draft instead of for two poor players. I like the look of White the little I've seen of him but I know of another person who rated him highly last year. :thumbsu:

He could have been another Whitehead. :(

Thomas looks alright, but I read that Port quickly whisked him away from training at Princes Park for a training session and they picked him in the PSD.

[whippersnipper]

Yep, I'd cut hard so we have at least six picks in this draft and grab a couple of late picks, preferably a ruckman and a quickish type who is bottom aged. Matt White and Laidlaw instead of Saddington and Mclaren should have been the go last year but apparently we weren't even going to use pick 58. :confused:
Definitley think that getting both of those players was a mistake, but I think you are being a little harsh on Saddington. Would have not bothered trading for him, would have used the late pick on a big bodied youngster, and chosen Saddington over McLaren in the PSD. Obvioulsy Saddo ended up struggling, but at the time I would have used the same idea that Pagan did- we needed another big body in the backline, so I would have picked him up in the PSD. Pick 51 was a terrible waste though, so was McLaren.

[DIG]

It's just oh so easy in hindsight isn't it.

Last year French missed a lot of footy and our defence was shot, everyone here was screaming for a ready-made ruck to help French out plus an experienced defender. Mclaren and Saddington were the best available and cost us pittance (Mclaren a PSD draft pick), Sadd traded for pick #51 or so. Both were still relatively young. Yes they gave us nothing, but maybe next year will be better - esp Saddington back from injury - but maybe not, but lets not give up on them both just yet.

Long term in defence, we had Hartlett and O'Hailpin coming through plus drafted Bower and Edwards last year. We still miss a decent young ruck coming through, have to draft one somewhere this year - likely pick 19 i'd say, if the right candidate's there.

At the time, there was very little criticism of this recruiting, but again, hindsight's a wonderful thing.

I hope we delist as many of the duds on our list, of which there are still just so many, as possible and draft 6 kids in the national draft, and save 1-2 for the PSD.

[Effes]

A pre season draft pick does not cost you nothing

[RiteBak@Ya]

In Summary, what we are all saying (i think);

Take 6 players in the National. Wayne Hughes should give Mojo a call for the later picks and view HBF picks in the phantom draft, (Although HBF has gone to many mids who need development and should have taken Renouf at 19).

Take 1 Player in the PSD (preferably young with some talent) - Perhaps Laidlaw, Scmidt or other young players not getting a game for Sydney.

List Jackson

This would require 7 delisitings. Who is on the block. Please let me go first.

Troy Longmuir

[Gilly1972]

In Summary, what we are all saying (i think);

Take 6 players in the National. Wayne Hughes should give Mojo a call for the later picks and view HBF picks in the phantom draft, (Although HBF has gone to many mids who need development and should have taken Renouf at 19).

Take 1 Player in the PSD (preferably young with some talent) - Perhaps Laidlaw, Scmidt or other young players not getting a game for Sydney.

List Jackson

This would require 7 delisitings. Who is on the block. Please let me go first.

Troy Longmuir

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jeremias]

Delistings
French-retired
Davies
Prendergast
Chambers
Longmuir
Sporn
Livingston-may stay if Thornton leaves, otherwise GONE.
Smith-rookie

Now, assuming that Livo goes, that is 7 off the main list, and one off the rookie list.

Elevate
Batson-we are in NO position to delist young developing ruckmen

Draft
1. Gibbs
17. O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
19. Renouf
35. Best available
51. Best available
67. Best availaible
nd 2 rookie spots freed up by the elevation of Batson and delisting of Smith
Rookie draft 1.
Rookie draft 17.


(too hard to predict who will still be around at the later picks)

That would leave us with no PSD pick. I think the club will want one, seeing as it is the first pick that we have, so Bryan may find himself in a bit of trouble, which is unfortunate as we need ruckmen. If only Teague, Saddington and Deluca weren't contracted :mad:

PSD 1: hopefully Laycock

So that would mean the main list changes are:

IN
Gibbs
O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
Renouf
Pick 35
Pick 51
Batson (rookie)
Laycock
Rookie Draft 1-hopefully Smith
Rookie Draft 17-take a punt on another kid

OUT
French
Davies
Chambers
Prendergast
Longmuir
Sporn
Livingston
Bryan
Smith (rookie)

[SA Blue]

A pre season draft pick does not cost you nothing

Who would have you picked in last years PSD?

Also this years National Draft so we can have it on record.

[RiteBak@Ya]

Delistings


That would leave us with no PSD pick. I think the club will want one, seeing as it is the first pick that we have, so Bryan may find himself in a bit of trouble, which is unfortunate as we need ruckmen. If only Teague, Saddington and Deluca weren't contracted :mad:

PSD 1: hopefully Laycock

So that would mean the main list changes are:

IN
Gibbs
O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
Renouf
Pick 35
Pick 51
Batson (rookie)
Laycock
Rookie Draft 1-hopefully Smith
Rookie Draft 17-take a punt on another kid

Smith (rookie)

Agree with your choice of in's, particularly Renouf at 19 (must happen imo). I think we can leave Batson as a rookie for another season and keep Bryan on list for another year. We would then have Deluca, Mclaren, Bryan sharing duites in the Seniors with Batson and Renouf developing

[Effes]

Who would have you picked in last years PSD?

Also this years National Draft so we can have it on record.

I would have gone after Salopek and if that had fallen through drafted a youngster.

These were my thoughts on McLaren last September

http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=137845#137845

As for the National Draft I wouldn't have a clue:D
I've seen them play a few times but that isn't enough to make an evaluation of whether they can make it or not. I'm sure the recruiters are extremely meticulous in who they recruit.......

Unlike McLaren, who has been in the system for a number of years and therefore was able to be evaluated based on his performances.

[Gilly1972]

Agree with your choice of in's, particularly Renouf at 19 (must happen imo). I think we can leave Batson as a rookie for another season and keep Bryan on list for another year. We would then have Deluca, Mclaren, Bryan sharing duites in the Seniors with Batson and Renouf developing

Come draft day i for one will NOT be disappointed with the club if we don't draft Renouf at 17 or 19, I don't think we are yet in a position with our list to be drafting for need, so if we do this, we do it with a later pick. FWIW i have some mids/ball carriers in front of Renouf on my list of best available around our PP and 2nd rounder, and i suspect Renouf will go around mid to late 20's. I would definitely use #35 on him, but not 17 or 19 IMHO. Get best available in the early rounds, get a ruckman to develop later on in the draft, and look at one of the good ruck prospects in next years draft. Kreuzer might be around the mark for our first round pick, if not we would be a certainty to pick up McEvoy or Bellchambers in the second round i would imagine.

[Johnny_3]

i think with our later picks we need one bottom age prospect and one 200-205 ruckman

[Bluebear]

I would have gone after Salopek and if that had fallen through drafted a youngster.

Didn't know he was avaiable in the PSD.



These were my thoughts on McLaren last September

http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=137845#137845



Interesting. How tall is Jeff White? Seems to be a "handy" ruckman.
Height is not the only factor for a ruckman, he is young and we don't have anyone else.

[Effes]

Yeh..........Jeff White happens to have a good leap but even that isn't enough. He frequently gets beaten by the bigger rucks

Why don't we have anyone else? Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so :confused:

[Johnny_3]

Yeh..........Jeff White happens to have a good leap but even that isn't enough. He frequently gets beaten by the bigger rucks

Why don't we have anyone else? Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so :confused:
i think jeff is like 29ish... not young and no point going after him or even talking about him if his over 24 thanks to smoron...

[Furn]

I dont really understan this draft thing........you only get a pick in the PSD if u pass in the 'real' draft? Does that go for the rookie draft as well.

no u dont have to pass as such u juz have to have room on your list so if u delist say 10 players and pick 9 in the draft u can pick one in the psd . So in theory u can have 30 picks in the draft if u delist 31 players but 25 of them will be the last 25 or so

The rookie draft is a separate list but again u can pick as many players as u have room for

[Bluebear]

i think jeff is like 29ish... not young and no point going after him or even talking about him if his over 24 thanks to smoron...

Missed the point Johnny 3 - just saying he is about the same height as McLaren, and considered by many (other than Effes) as one of the best rucks in the comp.


Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so

As for picking young rucks inthe draft and trying to develop them.
Mott - O.k. didn't work, but fits this category
Bryan
Deluca
Batson
Both O'Hailpins

Has it been successful........not by any stretch - the jury is still out on the last 3.
But to say Pagan hasn't actually tried to get youngish rucks drafted is nonsense.

[Effes]

It isn't nonsense

He has not picked one rookie ruckman in the National Draft

[RiteBak@Ya]

Come draft day i for one will NOT be disappointed with the club if we don't draft Renouf at 17 or 19, I don't think we are yet in a position with our list to be drafting for need, so if we do this, we do it with a later pick. .

I dont understand how you can rate ruckman against midfielders and say he is 22 or he is 28. You could say perhaps a 2nd rounder or 1st rounder, ect, or you can line up mids against eachother.

The fact is that Renouf is the second best in the draft so someone wanting a ruckmen will go for him in the second round (IMO is a second rounder), If we dont pick him upo another club will in the second round.

[Thunderstruck]

More 20/20 hindsight........I guess everyone saw Rutten's injury coming too right...y'know, being a ruckman and all, I just KNEW he would get a knee injury. Oh, hey while I'm at it I just KNEW Goodes would get the brownlow.:rolleyes:

HEY D#CKHEADS...................PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE OLD DARK NAVEY'S...............TYPE "I THOUGHT".........YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING - YOU SUSPECTED, THOUGHT, etc..........:mad:

By the way all of todays hacks were kids once too..............that would have to get a vote as one of the most meaningless statements I've ever read.:p

Drafting isn't an exact science.

I hate this time of year.:thumbsu:

In English please

At the end of the day Carlton have had ample opportunity to pick up some young rucks, just look at Maric, Meesen, Wood, Deluca. At least 3 of those will become genuine AFL ruckman of the future....and Carlton certainly had those early draft picks.

But getting back to McLaren, he isn't exactly the greatest footballer...and picking him up as a ruck is not exactly helping your club, hell there are blokes like Dean Cox, Brendon Lade, Darren Jolly, Aaaron Sandilands who would rape McLaren blind in the ruck every day of the week. He is a VFL ruck at best, more like ur typical bush ruck, few taps, few marks odd goal here and there.

Just set yourself to go for Gibbs, Im sure u will, possible Renouf with the next pick. If not there is Kreuzer next year who is an excellent talent....pit him against McLaren right now he'd towel him up.

All the best teams in the AFL have genuine TAP ruckmen.

West Coast = Cox
Fremantle = Sandilands
Adelaide = Clarke (retired now)
Sydney = Jolly

There is no substitute for a gun ruck, they are a must, you cant recruit half decent rucks, important to go for the best possible ruck. Think McLaren V Dean Cox...who would be giving their midfield first use???

[Bluebear]

If your going to mount an arguement against me make sure you actually understand what my arguement is. I actually agree with many of your points.

At no point have I ever claimed that McLaren is a good ruck. I have refuted that its not just because of his height. I have also said he is young and MAY improve (sorry Effes - I don't own a crystal ball)

I dispute that we have not drafted any rookie rucks. Batson and the O'Hailpins are all 199cm plus so fit the height profile. As to whether they can actually hold down the positon is yet to be seen. But they have been drafted.

Yes we have drafted crap rucks - could we have done better, no doubt, but gee, we passed on James Hird as well - there is a **** load of luck invovled in ANY drafting.

To draw comparisons to SA and WA clubs is unfair.
You guys can scout your entire comp of non AFL players and spot the up and comers. Thats why you have done so well with rookies. We don;t have the resources to have scouts at all WAFL or SANFL games. Instead we can watch VFL, but of course due to our AFL policy, half the guys running around belong to AFL clubs.

[Bluebear]

In English please

would rape McLaren blind in the ruck every day of the week. He is a VFL ruck at best, more like ur typical bush ruck, few taps, few marks odd goal here and there.


I prefer my version of English. Thanks.

[Gilly1972]

I dont understand how you can rate ruckman against midfielders and say he is 22 or he is 28. You could say perhaps a 2nd rounder or 1st rounder, ect, or you can line up mids against eachother.

The fact is that Renouf is the second best in the draft so someone wanting a ruckmen will go for him in the second round (IMO is a second rounder), If we dont pick him upo another club will in the second round.

This is the way i see recruting, especially for us at the moment...i am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion....

I made my point because we don't have a strong and deep enough list to be recruiting for need. I can't remember where i saw this or the exact stats, but in your second round pick there is only roughly a 30% chance (or thereabouts) somebody might be able to remind me of these stats or who posted them, that your pick is going to make it in the AFL.....so for mine recruiting is about rating the players who you thin khave the attributes to make a 100 or 150+ game AFL player, whether they be midfielders or rucks.....and you pick the guys with the most talent with your early picks, regardless of position. How do you judge ruck against m id? Well i don't thin kyou do, nor do you have to.....we would be judging Renouf (or his potential in the future more to the point) to compete against or ruck to the level of the top AFL ruckmen....Cox or Fraser or White....then we compare him to blokes he might be rucking against in the future such as Kreuzer or McEvoy (who both might be in front of him even though they don't qualify until next years draft), then you rank them....it might be the later picks where you can take a punt on picking a bloke for position......as far as i have been able to work out from watching the champs and other games is that the pool of talent between 15 and 25 mainly consists of ball carriers..... Having said that, we probably also have to take a punt on where we thinnk we can pick up a ruck prospect with potential this year, if we wait until #35 chances are one of Tippett, Renouf or Hampson would still be available there, we may not get Renouf, but he may not end up being the best ruckman in the draft, but we get for arguments sake, Gibbs, O'Brien and Armitage, 3 ball carriers who are already at the top level but also have lots of upside, and then we get a ruckman to develop as well.

It is all about taking a punt on where you think you will be able to pick somebody you want up.

[marcmurphy3]

This is the way i see recruting, especially for us at the moment...i am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion....

I made my point because we don't have a strong and deep enough list to be recruiting for need. I can't remember where i saw this or the exact stats, but in your second round pick there is only roughly a 30% chance (or thereabouts) somebody might be able to remind me of these stats or who posted them, that your pick is going to make it in the AFL.....so for mine recruiting is about rating the players who you thin khave the attributes to make a 100 or 150+ game AFL player, whether they be midfielders or rucks.....and you pick the guys with the most talent with your early picks, regardless of position. How do you judge ruck against m id? Well i don't thin kyou do, nor do you have to.....we would be judging Renouf (or his potential in the future more to the point) to compete against or ruck to the level of the top AFL ruckmen....Cox or Fraser or White....then we compare him to blokes he might be rucking against in the future such as Kreuzer or McEvoy (who both might be in front of him even though they don't qualify until next years draft), then you rank them....it might be the later picks where you can take a punt on picking a bloke for position......as far as i have been able to work out from watching the champs and other games is that the pool of talent between 15 and 25 mainly consists of ball carriers..... Having said that, we probably also have to take a punt on where we thinnk we can pick up a ruck prospect with potential this year, if we wait until #35 chances are one of Tippett, Renouf or Hampson would still be available there, we may not get Renouf, but he may not end up being the best ruckman in the draft, but we get for arguments sake, Gibbs, O'Brien and Armitage, 3 ball carriers who are already at the top level but also have lots of upside, and then we get a ruckman to develop as well.

It is all about taking a punt on where you think you will be able to pick somebody you want up.

Good argument. I wouldn't mind taking Tippet if he is around at 35. He is also a year older than Renouf and 6 kilograms heavier. He knows how to tap from basketball.

[Pafloyul]

(sorry Effes - I don't own a crystal ball)

It is called reasoning. :cool: