Opinions Please

[KingyOrTheKing]

OK. I have been watching The Cutting Edge: Jane Elliot - The Australian Eye on SBS and have been thinking about the issue of apologizing to Aborigines.

My problem with this is that I do not think I should apologize to Aborigines because I am white, and therefore the same race as those that did the horrendous things to them back then. However, I think its only right to apologize to them for the way my direct ancestors may have treated them.

Anyway, please tell me your thoughts on the issue.:)

[TheMase]

Originally posted by KingyOrTheKing
OK. I have been watching The Cutting Edge: Jane Elliot - The Australian Eye on SBS and have been thinking about the issue of apologizing to Aborigines.

My problem with this is that I do not think I should apologize to Aborigines because I am white, and therefore the same race as those that did the horrendous things to them back then. However, I think its only right to apologize to them for the way my direct ancestors may have treated them.

Anyway, please tell me your thoughts on the issue.:)

I do not believe I should apologise either. In a way I think they should be thanking us. I mean that may seem like a simplistic view, but seriously. They complain today that we took over their country etc. So we say okay we will leave, as long as you give up EVERYTHING that is foreign/european in nature. Thats right, we will pull everything down and you just get the land, you cover up your privates, and you get your spears and go back the old way. No help from the federal government anymore, no.

Thats right, do you seriously think they would want to go back? I dont think so. So why should we say sorry, for something that they wont even go back to?

I dont think we should say sorry anyway, I mean I didnt do anything. Captain cook and his merry men took over the country. One of my ancestors was a convict, stole bread I think. I bet he didnt CHOOSE to come over here. I didnt do anything, so I am not saying sorry. If they dont want to live the way off life they get now, then go into the bush if that is what htey want.

[KingyOrTheKing]

Originally posted by TheMase


I do not believe I should apologise either. In a way I think they should be thanking us. I mean that may seem like a simplistic view, but seriously. They complain today that we took over their country etc. So we say okay we will leave, as long as you give up EVERYTHING that is foreign/european in nature. Thats right, we will pull everything down and you just get the land, you cover up your privates, and you get your spears and go back the old way. No help from the federal government anymore, no.

Thats right, do you seriously think they would want to go back? I dont think so. So why should we say sorry, for something that they wont even go back to?


But Europeans didn't just take over their land(technically speaking its no-ones land because Aborigines migrated here, just like the Europeans), they destroyed their culture, tore their families apart etc. etc. Some really horrible things.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by KingyOrTheKing


But Europeans didn't just take over their land(technically speaking its no-ones land because Aborigines migrated here, just like the Europeans), they destroyed their culture, tore their families apart etc. etc. Some really horrible things.

That is true. But what does that have to do with me or you. Did you do this? Did I do this? No, It was done a long time before we came into existance.

I can feel sorry for the aboriginals "past" ancestors, and if they were around today I would probably should them my sympathy. But today's aboriginals had no effect to them. Most of them don't care REALLY care about what happened in the past, they just do it because they CAN, because its apparently RACIST, anything you say to them can be taken as RACIST.

So I would not say sorry to them. It isnt a good thing that it happened in the past, but how would they want to live?

[Porthos]

My family has a lot of apologies due to it too. I'm still waiting for the governments of the USSR, Germany and Ukraine to get back to me.

As does yours, Masey....when will England apologise for your family's forced deportation to a hostile land?

[Jars458]

Originally posted by TheMase


I do not believe I should apologise either. In a way I think they should be thanking us. I mean that may seem like a simplistic view, but seriously. They complain today that we took over their country etc. So we say okay we will leave, as long as you give up EVERYTHING that is foreign/european in nature. Thats right, we will pull everything down and you just get the land, you cover up your privates, and you get your spears and go back the old way. No help from the federal government anymore, no.

Thats right, do you seriously think they would want to go back? I dont think so. So why should we say sorry, for something that they wont even go back to?

I dont think we should say sorry anyway, I mean I didnt do anything. Captain cook and his merry men took over the country. One of my ancestors was a convict, stole bread I think. I bet he didnt CHOOSE to come over here. I didnt do anything, so I am not saying sorry. If they dont want to live the way off life they get now, then go into the bush if that is what htey want.


Your ignorance is astounding

White Europeans came here and destroyed much of their culture

It is impossible to go back to what it was before.

The cultures have become intermingled and as a result of that the Aboriginal people are much worse off

Just look at infant mortality rates etc etc

I don't claim to be an expert on the matter but saying let them go back to how they were before is just silly.


The Apology will come form the Government, not to say that we as individuals did anytrhing wrong personally, but that we as an AUstralian people are SORRY for what was done to the Aboriginal people

An acknowledgement that White Europeans came to their land and destroyed their culture and in some places attempted Genocide and hten of course much more recently the White Australian Government ( of our parents vintage) took children away from their families to try to make them "more white"

So I for one am more than happy to apologise becuase I am very sorry that my ancestors would do such a thing and that the Australian Government would do such a thing

We are more than happy to accpet legends of the past such as Dawn Fraser as one of our own and belonging to us and basking in that glory - yet we say, all the negative stuf that happended has nothing to do with us (white anglo saxons)

very hypocrital

Before we admit the mistakes of the past - we can't go forward.

We must try to heal the wounds as well as we possibly can - and with all the problems the Aboriginal people face, the least we can do is offer an apology.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Jars458



White Europeans came here and destroyed much of their culture

It is impossible to go back to what it was before.

The cultures have become intermingled and as a result of that the Aboriginal people are much worse off

Just look at infant mortality rates etc etc

I don't claim to be an expert on the matter but saying let them go back to how they were before is just silly.


mistakes of the past - we can't go forward.

We must try to heal the wounds as well as we possibly can - and with all the problems the Aboriginal people face, the least we can do is offer an apology.

Exactly. White Europeans came here. I am not a white European. My ancestors destroyed nothing, they were forced to come here. That isnt my fault.

I never said for them to go back. I said why would they want to go back.
I understand that in the past, the Europeans treated them badly, and for that I sympathise. My family and most families had no direct relation to that. A lot were convicts forced to come here, and it was those Europeans (cook etc) that did the damage. So if anyone wants to say sorry it should be England.

I sympathise with THEIR ancestors. I really do. I feel that their culture was destroyed. But from what I remember learning, there were Europeans here previous to the Aboriginals, and from memory they did a similar thing to them, that the Europeans did.

What problems do they face? Explain that to me exactly?
I dont see it. They are no different from me and you. And to suggest that everyone is racist is just pathetic.

I used to live in North QLD, there were aboriginals all around me. Most were unemployed and living off the government. I really do feel sorry for them ay. Oh yeah and around my area here, the aboriginals jumped up and down to get some "sacred land". Only to sell it once they got their hands on it.

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase



I used to live in North QLD, there were aboriginals all around me. Most were unemployed and living off the government. I really do feel sorry for them ay. Oh yeah and around my area here, the aboriginals jumped up and down to get some "sacred land". Only to sell it once they got their hands on it.

What area and who??? Facts not heresay.

What were the white unemployed living on?
:rolleyes:

[sabre_ac]

Dont get me wrong I am sorry that the incident occured and I am I feel saddness for the plight of the aboriginals.
But will I take personal blame??
Not a hope in hell.
I am behind the prime minister 100 percent on this, like the rest of the country.

To take blame and admit we are sorry is to blame every japanese person for hte crimes of there grandfathers towards Australians.Yes they should acknowledge it happend and yes they should consider it wrong, but in now way should they take personal blame of the generation before them.

The same goes for anyone else waiting for a apology from another country.You cannot expect people who are no themselves to blame to take the burden of blame.
Its time to move on people, not forget but to move on.

[BMD]

Mase is referring to some degraded land around the NSW Central Coast. It had been used for sand mining and was not in a good way. The local aboriginal community put in a claim which was granted - no-one opposed them because the land was degraded. This was in about 1993.

Anyway, the community recently decided to sell the land to a developer for millions and use the funds to help members of the community. The choice the faced was keeping their damaged land or selling it.

All seems fair enough to me!

[Fat Red]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
I am behind the prime minister 100 percent on this, like the rest of the country.



How do you define the rest of the country?

[BMD]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
To take blame and admit we are sorry is to blame every japanese person for hte crimes of there grandfathers towards Australians.Yes they should acknowledge it happend and yes they should consider it wrong, but in now way should they take personal blame of the generation before them.



The RSL won't like this, they're still after an apology from the Japanese government for the brutal treatment of POW's during WWII.

And rightly so. The Japanese NATION wronged these people and the Japanese NATION should apologise. The government is the representative of the nation. Obviously the individuals are different, but the entity of the nation continues.

Same situation. John Howard has offered his personal regret, which is meaningless because he didn't do anything personally.

However (some of) the Australian people committed some acts which were wrong. Government policies of the day caused suffering. The Australian government as representative of the people should apologise for the wrongs committed. This is not saying that current day Australians are responsible for those acts.

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Fat Red


How do you define the rest of the country?

Those that voted him to a landslide victory a few months ago.......

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by BMD


The RSL won't like this, they're still after an apology from the Japanese government for the brutal treatment of POW's during WWII.

And rightly so. The Japanese NATION wronged these people and the Japanese NATION should apologise. The government is the representative of the nation. Obviously the individuals are different, but the entity of the nation continues.

Same situation. John Howard has offered his personal regret, which is meaningless because he didn't do anything personally.

However (some of) the Australian people committed some acts which were wrong. Government policies of the day caused suffering. The Australian government as representative of the people should apologise for the wrongs committed. This is not saying that current day Australians are responsible for those acts.

Why should the nation apologise??
Have the germans been made to apologise for the crimes of there leader and grandparents?
I think the RSL is attempting to get the Japanese to acknowledge it happend and rightly so as I dont think they have have.
By all means get the Japanese to agree it happend and agree it was cruel.But to make a generation later apologise for the wrongs of the past and take blame eases no pain merely creates problems for Australian/Japanese living in our country turning them into a second class of citizen.
It causes more problems than good, if your grandfather killed my grandfather I am not going to demand you pay me commenstaion nor am i going to hate you based solely on your second name.

This whole sorry buisiness could almost be viewed as a form of racisim.
Taking blame based solely on the colour of your skin, and here I am thinking we are attempting to move on.......

[TheMase]

Originally posted by 1AD


What area and who??? Facts not heresay.

What were the white unemployed living on?
:rolleyes:

Excuse me? Not heresay?

I lived in North QLD for 7 years.

Townsville, Home Hill, Ayr and Hughenden (i think thats how you spell it).

They were living on the doll. But the last time I checked the aboriginals got ab-study etc and were first in housing commssion and all that.

So I do have fact

Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

[TheMase]

Originally posted by BMD
Mase is referring to some degraded land around the NSW Central Coast. It had been used for sand mining and was not in a good way. The local aboriginal community put in a claim which was granted - no-one opposed them because the land was degraded. This was in about 1993.

Anyway, the community recently decided to sell the land to a developer for millions and use the funds to help members of the community. The choice the faced was keeping their damaged land or selling it.

All seems fair enough to me!
The land couldnt have been too "sacred" to them then, could it?

[BMD]

I think you'll find that the German government has apologised to the Jewish people.

The US government has apologised to African-Americans for slavery.

All it is doing is saying, what we (the nation) did in the past was wrong and we're sorry for it.

[BMD]

Originally posted by TheMase

The land couldnt have been too "sacred" to them then, could it?

Well they had to weigh up keeping their land (damaged by the actions of others) or selling it for the greater good of their community.

Not an easy decision, and from what I understand one that caused a bit of division / controversy in the community.

When aboriginals have land, are they not allowed to use it in the same way as other members of the community?

[Porthos]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
Why should the nation apologise??
Have the germans been made to apologise for the crimes of there leader and grandparents?

And thats why many aboriginals (I believe) are after a treaty....any other example you'd care to name is an act of war, in wartime. The Australian settlement hasn't been recognised as such.

[Jars458]

Originally posted by sabre_ac


Those that v
oted him to a landslide victory a few months ago.......
Yes but that wasn't about the sorry issue it was about other non white people trying to make a home here (shame on them).

Did the original white settlers comply wih Aboriginal immigration policy?????

[BMD]

Just on Howard's supposed landslide victory. The 2 party preferred vote was 51% - 49%.

That ain't no landslide in my book.

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Porthos


And thats why many aboriginals (I believe) are after a treaty....any other example you'd care to name is an act of war, in wartime. The Australian settlement hasn't been recognised as such.

Ok should all people of muslim decent be blamed for the crimes of the taliban?
This wasnt a act of war but many americans where hurt and are looking for someone to blame.

In my opinion the burden of blame based solely on the colour of your skin is a form of racisim in itself, and for that reason I will never take the blame for the crimes of my ancestors/fellow white person a generationg ago.

Jars if the people of Australia were so fast to take up the idea of sorry and there leader refused to then he wouldnt be in office today plain and simple.
If it was such a big issue and most people felt so strongly about it then he would not have won so convicingly

[TheMase]

Originally posted by BMD



When aboriginals have land, are they not allowed to use it in the same way as other members of the community?

Of course they are. But they claimed it on the grounds that it was sacred.

Can I go claim some land that I believe my great great great great great grand father had a house on? Or did some work on? Well maybe that is sacred to me?

I dont mean they cant sell it. But if they are claiming it to be sacred, then shouldn't it stay that way, as the way they got it for that purpose? If they want land to sell, why can't they buy it like anyone else?

[Porthos]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
In my opinion the burden of blame based solely on the colour of your skin is a form of racisim in itselfWell, yeah.

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Porthos
Well, yeah.

And is that not what this whole sorry issue is about.
"Your white, stand up and say your sorry"

[Darky]

I think a major problem regarding reconciliation is the lack of education on the matter.
Australian history took a major backseat while I was at high school (not sure how extensively it is taught pre-VCE/HSC).

Admittedly, many things are still unknown and what comes to light is always politically manipulated by the incumbent government in order to shift blame, regardless of party.

Apart from history and politics buffs and those who generally like to acquire a higher level of knowledge, what do today's teenagers and twenty-somethings know about Australian history?

How many young people today can name even half a dozen Australian Prime Ministers?

And, in relevance to this topic, how can the general populace be expected to approve of a government apology for actions most oridnary Australians know nothing or very little about?

I wouldn't resent the greater Australian population for not approving of a government apology because most people (myself included) do not know the facts. Until they do, scepticism and hesitation remain.

[Jars458]

Originally posted by sabre_ac


And is that not what this whole sorry issue is about.
"Your white, stand up and say your sorry"

No - its not.

its a case of the Government saying sorry as they are the only legitimate authority in a postion to do so.

A government which represents black white brown yellow and green.

A government saying - this was done by Governments of the past - we are sorry that it occurred.

Acknowleding past injustices - is what its about.

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase


Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

Maybe he was peckish. Afterall Pauline said they used to be cannibals. (you probably taste like chicken)

;)

[sabre_ac]

Originally posted by Jars458




Acknowleding past injustices - is what its about.

And that is what they have done.
They are under no obligations to do any more or any less.
Yes it happend, yes it was terrible and no we are not to blame.

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase


Excuse me? Not heresay?

I lived in North QLD for 7 years.

Townsville, Home Hill, Ayr and Hughenden (i think thats how you spell it).

They were living on the doll. But the last time I checked the aboriginals got ab-study etc and were first in housing commssion and all that.

So I do have fact

Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

You haven't said what the "white" unemployed lived on?

As for the housing commision maybe after being here 1,000's of years they were in front of the list
:D

[Sydneyfan]

Let's put a different spin on this situation and see what people's reactions are . . . .

Say the Icelandic Government decides that there's not enough space for Iceland's prison population (too many people stealing herrings! ;) ). They conduct a search on the web to find a suitable location to transport these criminals, somewhere with a relatively low population, plenty of space, nice weather etc. They settle on Australia and send over 5 commercial planes worth of convicts and officers as well as a couple of Air Force jets in case there's any trouble from the local population.

When they arrive at Sydney Airport they realise that the local population are primitive, sub-human, unruly mob and decide to label the land terra nullius . Years follow, free settlers arrive (both assisted and unassisted) as well as convicts until the convict transportation program is stopped. By this time it has been decided that Australians are primitive individuals who will hopefully either breed out, be killed or die from diseases. At this time also the last full-bloodied Australian in Tasmania has been killed, on the weekend in Tasmania it was considered sport for the Icelanders to round up Tasmanians and kill them. Now many Australians are rounded up: to either remain in an isolated mission more often far away from their homeland, children often separated from their families and taught a different culture, religion and language which is superior while those in charge of them condemn their culture, religion & language as evil; work as domestic servants or workers on property, ie. slaves with no or little money and little or no chance of ever living the homesteads their working for; the lucky ones so far are the ones in remote regions with little or no contact with the Icelanders & later migrants.

Fast Forward 120+ years and Australians still remain the most marginalised group in the United Icelandic States of Australia (UISA) originally called Australia. Since the first group of Icelanders arrived in Sydney 200 years ago, waves of migrants have arrived and prospered in the UISA, living relatively comfortable and wealthy lives compared to most other regions of the world. Migrants have integrated into UISA society and contributed to the prosperity of the country, yet there's still one group which remain largely maligned and disadvantaged, living on average 20 years less than the general population, having third-world level rates of infant mortality, having much higher rates of incarceration, and facing prejudice often on a daily basis from the general population. The Australians are mainly just after acknowledgement from the general population for the crimes of the past which have been committed against them and thus far this has not occurred.

Although the scenario above might be a bit stupid and unrealistic, the general message there is that there have been bad things committed against Aborigines by Europeans, and that Aborigines are mainly just after acknowledgement for the fact that these crimes did occur in the past instead of Europeans denying or downplaying the sins of the past. I understand why people don't want to say sorry because they feel that they personally have done nothing wrong. By in order for this country to move on, and become the country it is capable of becoming we need to acknowledge the sins of the past, not downplay them, admit our ancestors did commit crimes against Aborigines, agree that decisions made in the past (although some of them may have been done in good faith) were largely detrimental to Aboriginal people and their culture, and apologise for the mistakes of the past on behalf of our ancestors.

Countries are just like humans, indeed they are a collection of humans! People don't like admitting when they've made mistakes and hurt people as a consequence (I know I hate it) but what separates good people from others is when you do make a mistake and hurt someone, you're prepared to admit it, confront the person you hurt and say that you're genuinely sorry for the mistake you made. Australia has the choice, it can admit that in the past we (as in us and our ancestors) committed crimes against Aborignes, acknowledge it and express genuine regret and sorrow for the crimes of the past; or we can ignore the past. The choice as Australians is ours! We don't have to say sorry to Aborigines yet if we don't it makes us a bit hypocritical when condemning human rights issues in other countries if we're not willing to fully acknowledge our own sins in the past.

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase
Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

Oh - you got bitten. You poor little racist.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by 1AD


You haven't said what the "white" unemployed lived on?

As for the housing commision maybe after being here 1,000's of years they were in front of the list
:D

They lived on the dole fair enough. I am not saying they didnt. But aboriginals get many unjustified benifits.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by gPhonque


Oh - you got bitten. You poor little racist.

I wont say sorry for something I had no part in. So I am a racist.

Good work you ****ing ********.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by TheMase


They lived on the dole fair enough. I am not saying they didnt. But aboriginals get many unjustified benifits.

I believe that all welfare handouts should be means tested so I agree that it is not right that any person of Aboriginal descent (including rich) automatically recieve benefits such as Abstudy. It's a tough call because I know the reasons behind having universal Abstudy payments to Aboriginal students to encourage Aborigines to continue their education and get recieve qualifications but it does cause unnecessary resentment.

However, the irony of the situation is that if means testing were to incorporate Aborigines as well, the vast majority would still be eligible to obtain these handouts.

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase


I wont say sorry for something I had no part in. So I am a racist.

Good work you ****ing ********.

No, i refer to this comment:

originally posted by TheMase
Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

Read that again and tell me that's not a racist comment.

[Santos L Helper]

Mase, you should change your signature over to 'big footy's number one bigot'. You have exceeded anything that Frodo can throw up and at least Frodo tries to justifie his ramblings with some facts.

I can't believe you posted some dribble like If they dont want to live the way off life they get now, then go into the bush if that is what htey want. What exactly do they get you fool? I'll tell you............an increased death rate from disease, an exaggerated number of deaths in custody, lower life expectancy of between 15-25 years, highest rates of youth suicide in Australia, exploitation by governments and employers, and (this is fact, not just what you think is true) very limited funding by the government. If you try to tell me that they get more than the average person, I can shoot you down in flames by producing facts which show that a mere 3% of funding from ATSIC get's to the Aboriginal people that need it.

and.......
What problems do they face? Explain that to me exactly?
I dont see it. They are no different from me and you.

The Aboriginal people face a constant reminder that their ancestors were persecuted by your ancestors, yes YOUR ancestors. The convicts were treated better than the Aboriginal people. Aboriginal people are a race with a very spiritual connection to nature and the land. White people (your ancestors) will never understand this and just dismiss it as primitive rubbish and therefore any desecration performed by Europeans would have no effect on the Aboriginal people. Mase, one day you should go to an Aboriginal community centre or visit ATSIC and talk to them about Aboriginal problems and how they feel about the problems faced every day by Aboriginal people because you may just learn the meaning of the word compassion, rather than staying the bitter ignorant (of this situation) person you are now.

[1AD]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan


I believe that all welfare handouts should be means tested so I agree that it is not right that any person of Aboriginal descent (including rich) automatically recieve benefits such as Abstudy. It's a tough call because I know the reasons behind having universal Abstudy payments to Aboriginal students to encourage Aborigines to continue their education and get recieve qualifications but it does cause unnecessary resentment.

However, the irony of the situation is that if means testing were to incorporate Aborigines as well, the vast majority would still be eligible to obtain these handouts.

Can you tell us the difference between Austudy and Abstudy?

ta.:)

[Darky]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper
I can shoot you down in flames by producing facts which show that a mere 3% of funding from ATSIC get's to the Aboriginal people that need it.


As a bit of a side issue, do you have information on where the other 97% goes?

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase


They lived on the dole fair enough. I am not saying they didnt. But aboriginals get many unjustified benifits.

Name them!!

Unjustified...is that like the Government spending $2.3 BILLION on health care rebates where over 50 % goes to the wealthiest 20% of the population?

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by TheMase


Oh and at school once, one of them bit me, how humane :rolleyes:

TheMase, You've got to admit that that comment was racist. To base the actions of one child as a comment on the humanity of a race of people is a racist comment. I don't blame you for being pissed that that guy bit you, I would be too, but you can't blame all Aboriginal people for the actions of that one kid, it's not logical.
If the kid happened to be white, you'd pass the kid off as a d*ckhead and made not judgement on his ethnic background so you can't justify doing it just because the kid was Aboriginal.

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by Darky


As a bit of a side issue, do you have information on where the other 97% goes?

Unfortunately the other money get's used by ATSIC and is then lost in red tape. I had a guest lecturer one day who explained that ATSIC is locked down by govt red tape and that they are (between you and me) forced to spend money from their budget and that it costs a great deal of money to get any money to rural Aboriginals ( i hope this makes sense?) The 3% I'm talking about is what ends up with rural Aboriginal people as actual funding.
This guy was not one of ATSIC's biggest fans.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by 1AD


Can you tell us the difference between Austudy and Abstudy?

ta.:)

I admit I plead some ignorance on this one, I knew I shouldn't have commented on that ;) But from my understanding Aboriginal students did (2 or 3 years ago) receive ABStudy payments which were exactly the same principle as AUStudy but were universally available to all Aboriginal students regardless of their economic situation while Austudy was means-tested only being available to students who were found to be eligible for student assistance. As far as I know the same situation still applies.

[Darky]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan


TheMase, You've got to admit that that comment was racist. To base the actions of one child as a comment on the humanity of a race of people is a racist comment. I don't blame you for being pissed that that guy bit you, I would be too, but you can't blame all Aboriginal people for the actions of that one kid, it's not logical.
If the kid happened to be white, you'd pass the kid off as a d*ckhead and made not judgemnet on his ethnic background so you can't justify doing it just because the kid was Aboriginal.

Too right, SF!

White chicks bite me all the time. ;)

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper
If they dont want to live the way off life they get now, then go into the bush if that is what htey want.

Ahhh I didnt mean it like that! I meant if they want to go back to the way they were living before they can! I mean if they cherish their ancestory so much then, they can go and live there. I mean the Europeans brought all we have around us over, I am saying if they dont like it this way, they "have the opportunity" to do what they did before. I didnt mean it like that HAVE to go out there.
Not like that all.

and.......
What problems do they face? Explain that to me exactly?
I dont see it. They are no different from me and you.

They receive that reminder because they tell themselves that.

And my ancestors did nothing, they were convicts, it was captain cook etc that did that. I shouldnt have to say sorry. I can by sympathetic, but thats about all I have to morally do.

The problems they have are caused by themselves. I have lived in a aboriginal community. You call one black and they call for prosecution. Are they ashamed of their colour?

I dont have a problem with the aboriginal people, but nothing is going to change. I shouldn't have to say sorry, and I am actually with the government on this one.

I am just not going to post anything on this anymore.
Or anything else. Whats the point. I am not allowed to have an opinion anymore. (How many of you people have actually lived surrounded by Aboriginals? In a Aboriginal community? Not many I wouldnt think.)

[Darky]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan


I admit I plead some ignorance on this one, I knew I shouldn't have commented on that ;) But from my understanding Aboriginal students did (2 or 3 years ago) receive ABStudy payments which were exactly the same principle as AUStudy but were universally available to all Aboriginal students regardless of their economic situation while Austudy was means-tested only being available to students who were found to be eligible for student assistance. As far as I know the same situation still applies.

I've got the Austudy application forms lying around in this mess somewhere. When time allows, I'll have a look if there is any information regarding different rules and criteria between Abstudy and Austudy.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by Darky


Too right, SF!

White chicks bite me all the time. ;)


:D


If only they'd bite me more often! ;)

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Sydneyfan


TheMase, You've got to admit that that comment was racist. To base the actions of one child as a comment on the humanity of a race of people is a racist comment. I don't blame you for being pissed that that guy bit you, I would be too, but you can't blame all Aboriginal people for the actions of that one kid, it's not logical.
If the kid happened to be white, you'd pass the kid off as a d*ckhead and made not judgement on his ethnic background so you can't justify doing it just because the kid was Aboriginal.
No I would say that, that white kid was inhumane aswell.

I am not saying they are all like that.

*sigh*

[TheMase]

Originally posted by 1AD


Name them!!

Unjustified...is that like the Government spending $2.3 BILLION on health care rebates where over 50 % goes to the wealthiest 20% of the population?

They get free healthcare type benifits.

A girl at my school who was part aboriginal (2 generations ago)

Got free braces because she had aboriginal in her.
And all aboriginals are welcome to this. They also get free camps, schooling paid from memory and other benifits.

[Sydneyfan]

Originally posted by TheMase

No I would say that, that white kid was inhumane aswell.

I am not saying they are all like that.

*sigh*

That's alright, it did sound a bit like you were many a generalisation when I first read it though I'll leave it be. :)

I reckon you've already copped enough flak for the time being from everyone! :D

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase
I am not saying they are all like that.

*sigh*

Why did you post it then?

[TheMase]

Originally posted by gPhonque


Why did you post it then?

Well if I am not saying that are "all" like that.

Then I must be saying that "some" of them are like that.
I thought that was farely straight forward.

[Fat Red]

Originally posted by sabre_ac


Those that voted him to a landslide victory a few months ago.......

37% of the country voted Liberal first preference.

51% voted Coalition 2-party preferred.

I guess 51% of the score would be a Fremantle supporter's definition of a landslide win:rolleyes:

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase


Well if I am not saying that are "all" like that.

Then I must be saying that "some" of them are like that.
I thought that was farely straight forward.

Then surely, "some" white people are like that too.

Therefore, what relevance does it have to this topic?

None at all.

Correct?

[TheMase]

Originally posted by gPhonque


Then surely, "some" white people are like that too.

Therefore, what relevance does it have to this topic?

None at all.

Correct?
Pack your bags, go to North QLD. Live there for 7 years, then come back and talk to me.

Otherwise you have no idea.

[Fat Red]

Originally posted by TheMase

Pack your bags, go to North QLD. Live there for 7 years, then come back and talk to me.

Otherwise you have no idea.

No need, I believe everything you say about it Mase. Seriously.

I believe that:

1. You saw Aborigines who sat around and drank all day.
2. Most of them were unemployed and received government money.
3. One bit you in the schoolyard.

I just don't believe any of that is a reason that they shouldn't get an apology from the government.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Fat Red




I just don't believe any of that is a reason that they shouldn't get an apology from the government.

That isnt my reasoning. My reasoning for them not getting an apology is that, it wasn't even done by the Australian people who were convicts. It was done by the English. Now maybe they are the ones that should apologise.

And that post wasn't directed at you anyway.

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase


They get free healthcare type benifits.

A girl at my school who was part aboriginal (2 generations ago)

Got free braces because she had aboriginal in her.
And all aboriginals are welcome to this. They also get free camps, schooling paid from memory and other benifits.


Funny, my daughter had free dental (QLD) while she was at school.
(and she's a redhead!!).


As for Healthcare you can be happy that Aboriginal life span is 20 years less than the rest of the population. Any money spent on that is money well spent don't you think.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by 1AD



Funny, my daughter had free dental (QLD) while she was at school.
(and she's a redhead!!).


As for Healthcare you can be happy that Aboriginal life span is 20 years less than the rest of the population. Any money spent on that is money well spent don't you think.


Ahhh well for starters, the free braces was in NSW.

Why is it 20 years less though?
There has to be a logical reason for that?

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase

Pack your bags, go to North QLD. Live there for 7 years, then come back and talk to me.

Otherwise you have no idea.

Why don't you answer me Mase? Your comment earlier had no relevance at all to this topic.

Correct?

No matter how you look at it Mase, you're racist.

If you think your earlier comment was relevant, then you're racist.

If you now admit that it was irrelevant, then that also makes it a racist comment - meaning that it wasn't irrelevant to you when you posted it - thus making you a racist.



Oh, and by the way Mase - i may not have lived up there, but i've toured with our band all the way up the east coast, stopping at just about every town all the way up to Cairns. I've sat around with my fair share of homeless and poor Aboriginals for hours and chatted about life, and all kinds of things.

Some of them are amazing people - just like white people.

Some of them are arseholes - just like white people.

Mind you, we didn't come across any arseholes. It's amazing how people are nice to you when you're nice to them.

Which leads me to thinking what you could possibly have said to the aboriginal kid that bit you.......

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by TheMase
Why is it 20 years less though?
There has to be a logical reason for that?

Now, there's enough material for a conference.

[TheMase]

Originally posted by gPhonque


Why don't you answer me Mase? Your comment earlier had no relevance at all to this topic.

Correct?

No matter how you look at it Mase, you're racist.

If you think your earlier comment was relevant, then you're racist.

If you now admit that it was irrelevant, then that also makes it a racist comment - meaning that it wasn't irrelevant to you when you posted it - thus making you a racist.



Oh, and by the way Mase - i may not have lived up there, but i've toured with our band all the way up the east coast, stopping at just about every town all the way up to Cairns. I've sat around with my fair share of homeless and poor Aboriginals for hours and chatted about life, and all kinds of things.

Some of them are amazing people - just like white people.

Some of them are arseholes - just like white people.

Mind you, we didn't come across any arseholes. It's amazing how people are nice to you when you're nice to them.

Which leads me to thinking what you could possibly have said to the aboriginal kid that bit you.......

Once again. Dont try to pretend you know me.

Secondly, Visiting and living are two different things

The kid bit me for no reason mate.
And once again, everything I have said gets taken out of context.
Call me a racist mate I dont care. I dont value your opinion anymore than you value mine.

There are a part of the aboriginal society that i don particularly like, not all of them, a part of them. If that makes me a racist, then fine, Im a racist. But I dont see the difference between me not liking aboriginal and me not liking a proportion of the white society. Am I a racist because I dont like a proportion of the white population? Whats the difference, cant I be racist towards my own race?

I am not going to comment on this topic any further, because simply there is no point. You are just going to go on and on and you are wasting my time. I have said what I have said. And thats that.

TheMase.

P.S. Voice of Reason .. i was asking a question ..

[1AD]

Originally posted by TheMase



The kid bit me for no reason mate.

TheMase.

..

A Dog bit me once and I have been a Dogist ever since!!!!!!:mad:

[Roylion]

Originally posted by TheMase

My reasoning for them not getting an apology is that, it wasn't even done by the Australian people who were convicts. It was done by the English.

Errr..that's not correct.

There are many examples of convicts maltreating or killing Aborginies. For example....
In NSW
May 1788 - an aboriginal was killed by a convict who in reprisal killed two convicts at Rushcutters Bay (called so because they were cutting rushes at the time)
1790 - Governor Arthur Phillip's game keeper John McEntire was speared while out shooting Aborigines.
1794 - Some convict settlers caught a boy, bound him hand and foot, dragged his naked body across a fire, threw him in a river and shot him.
1799 - Five convicts now settlers, were tried for murdering two Aboriginal boys.

In Tasmania the majority of the early settlers were emancipated convicts or runaway convicts. There's hundred of stories of how escaped convicts mistreated and murdered Aboriginals. Aboriginies were often used for target practice. The ex-convict turned bushranger Michael Howe used to have a favorite pastime of lying his gun down, wait until Aboriginals approached and then shoot them by pulling the trigger with his toe.

I recommend reading the book "Blood on the Wattle" by Bruce Elder. It collects all the known accounts (most told by white men) of Aboriginal mistreatment and details in often horrifying detail, the masscres and mistreatment of Australian Aborigines since 1788.... many of which were done by convicts and the Australian born descendants of convicts.

[Voice of Reason]

Originally posted by TheMase
P.S. Voice of Reason .. i was asking a question ..

Yeah, sorry, I just didn't have time to go through the various reasons why Aboriginal life expectancy is so short. There really are a whole heap of reasons and some of them are hushed up. I don't fully understand the medicine, but it seems as if their bodies just don't adapt well to the "wonders" of Western civilisation like alcohol, KFC, coca cola, etc.

It's a huge debate that I'd hoped someone with more knowledge than I could spout forth on.

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by TheMase
Once again. Dont try to pretend you know me.

I'm not. You made a racist comment, and you're now trying to get out of it in a manner of which John Howard would be proud of.

Secondly, Visiting and living are two different things

So what!?

Does that make your comment earlier any more relevant?

The kid bit me for no reason mate.

Fair enough. I'm sorry if what you have posted today led me to believe that you probably called him a "black c#nt" or something similiar.

I don't know why i would think such a thing.

And once again, everything I have said gets taken out of context.

Then perhaps you should pull y our head out of your arse, stop posting crap, and actually think about what you post in future.

Your comment was racist.

And if it wasn't racist, then i'm still waiting for an answer on how it was at all relevant to this discussion.

Call me a racist mate I dont care. I dont value your opinion anymore than you value mine.

And i'm sure you value the opinions of Aboriginals even less.

After all, one of "them" bit you. How humane.

There are a part of the aboriginal society that i don particularly like, not all of them, a part of them. If that makes me a racist, then fine, Im a racist. But I dont see the difference between me not liking aboriginal and me not liking a proportion of the white society. Am I a racist because I dont like a proportion of the white population? Whats the difference, cant I be racist towards my own race?

It's got nothing to do with that Mase.

You tried to justify your belief that Australians shouldn't have to say 'sorry' to the Aboriginals by mentioning that one of them bit you when you were young(er).

It may not be your main reason, but you felt it was important enough to mention.

All i ask is - if it's not racist, then how is it relevant to this discussion?

I am not going to comment on this topic any further, because simply there is no point. You are just going to go on and on and you are wasting my time. I have said what I have said. And thats that.

Taking your bat and ball and going home hey?

How cute.

How old are you again Mase?

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by Jars458


No - its not.

its a case of the Government saying sorry as they are the only legitimate authority in a postion to do so.

A government which represents black white brown yellow and green.

A government saying - this was done by Governments of the past - we are sorry that it occurred.

Acknowleding past injustices - is what its about.

Here here......all they are after is what every state and territory government have already done.

Until this is done reconcilliation will never move forward no matter what the Pollies say..........

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by TheMase


I wont say sorry for something I had no part in. So I am a racist.

Good work you ****ing ********.

You miss the point......

it is the country saying sorry for something it's government did in the past.........it's not saying your to blame..........

such a small step but such a crucial one to the aborgines in this country.........

surely it's not that hard..........

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by TheMase


They lived on the dole fair enough. I am not saying they didnt. But aboriginals get many unjustified benifits.

Look up the facts.........the non aboriginal (of which I am one) people of this country rip off the benefits in this country more than the aboriginals if you look at the amounts and pecentages of population.........it just isn't as news worthy when we do it......

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper


Unfortunately the other money get's used by ATSIC and is then lost in red tape. I had a guest lecturer one day who explained that ATSIC is locked down by govt red tape and that they are (between you and me) forced to spend money from their budget and that it costs a great deal of money to get any money to rural Aboriginals ( i hope this makes sense?) The 3% I'm talking about is what ends up with rural Aboriginal people as actual funding.
This guy was not one of ATSIC's biggest fans.

Govt red tape and financing the pockets of the wealthy in this country have a lot to answer for.......but as the rich control the media and govt in this country it will take a miracle to expose it....

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by TheMase


That isnt my reasoning. My reasoning for them not getting an apology is that, it wasn't even done by the Australian people who were convicts. It was done by the English. Now maybe they are the ones that should apologise.

And that post wasn't directed at you anyway.

My history knowledge must be wrong.....I didn't know they were ruling the country between 1900 and 1970 when most of the stolen generation claims were based upon......


Go see the movie Rabbit Proof Fence.....it is based upon a true story that did happen and tell me you would like that to occurr to your own children/brother/sister/family..........

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by TheMase


They get free healthcare type benifits.

A girl at my school who was part aboriginal (2 generations ago)

Got free braces because she had aboriginal in her.
And all aboriginals are welcome to this. They also get free camps, schooling paid from memory and other benifits.

So do a lot of white families that rely upon govt support for income...........

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by Fat Red


No need, I believe everything you say about it Mase. Seriously.

I believe that:

1. You saw Aborigines who sat around and drank all day.
2. Most of them were unemployed and received government money.
3. One bit you in the schoolyard.

I just don't believe any of that is a reason that they shouldn't get an apology from the government.

Fat Red, you just described most of the non Aboriginal unemployed people.

Here's some facts for you Mase.................
1. Less Aboriginal people are drinkers than non Aboriginal people.
2. More Aboriginal people are unemployed (per capita) than non Aboriginal people because they are not given the same opportunities to gain employment that non Aboriginal people are........they are subject to discrimination by people like you.
3. So what if you lived in Nth Queensland? It obviously just made you bitter because you can't understand or comprehend the simplest of facts and tend to believe things you hear as truth.

Now, my ex lived at Pomperrauw (Aboriginal community in far Nth QLD) for about 3 months as a teachers assistant, her sister was the nurse their for 3 years and her sisters husband was the builder there too. I think I have some good evidence to go on here as well as my own comprehensive studies with my degree, and they all seem to tell the same story. There is Aboriginal people who rort the system just as their are many more white people doing the same. Why is it that you can't understand that due to European settlement Aboriginal people were almost a dying race and their culture has virtually been destroyed due to ignorance, apathy and the continued denial of generations since?

I find it dissapointing that enter this thread and then, after your shot down in flames, you just leave us. Stick to your guns and argue (if you must), but if your going to, at least present some FACTS.

[The Hitman]

Originally posted by Porthos
My family has a lot of apologies due to it too. I'm still waiting for the governments of the USSR, Germany and Ukraine to get back to me.


I assume you are Polish? I think I recognized the words under your username, well the language anyway. I'm Australian, but yes, Poles do have have a lot of apologies owed to by Germany, Russia, and many others. I'd rate them as one of the most persecuted nations on earth.

The Hitman

[The Hitman]

On the apologizing to aborigines issue, I believe that this generation should apologize for past deeds done.

The way aborignes were treated both on arrival of the settlers, right through to when they finally got the vote, has been atrocious. While some of their land claims, and other such matters are ridiculous, I think we should at least say sorry for what our predeccesors did.

The Hitman

[Porthos]

Originally posted by The Hitman
I assume you are Polish? I think I recognized the words under your username, well the language anyway. I'm Australian, but yes, Poles do have have a lot of apologies owed to by Germany, Russia, and many others. I'd rate them as one of the most persecuted nations on earth.

The Hitman
Ukranian/German actually. Ukranians (or more to the point, the countries that now combine to be the Ukraine) have been treated as expendable for hundreds of years by the Russians.

My great-uncle was captured as a POW by the Russians at the battle of Stalingrad and didn't get home until 1956

I'm `due' for apologies from both sides, but its silly to hold a grudge over something that happened so long ago. My original sentiment was `get over it'. Holding grudges for things that happened so long ago is what destroys the peace process...its why the situation in so many of the wartorn highway of countries in south-east Europe are so seriously ****ed up; because of what they did to your grandfather, so you're doing it to them.

Incidentally, the old quote was from a Brisbane band that writes songs in German.

[SeinDude]

I think this is a very unfortunate situation for all sides of this issue. I can see this from all sides of this, but I just cant see how bringing up the past is going to change things.

I think we need to move forward in life and get on with life... everyone has made mistakes but imagine if everyone went around to every single person in their past who had "wronged" them and made them apologise??? One could spend the rest of their life doing that, and I just dont see what that's going to achieve.

However, I guess everyone is different and may have different views which is ok... I repect that.

I will end by saying this... anyone who "really" knows TheMase knows he isn't a racist. Everyone sees life through their own experiences, but to pass judgement based on your opinion is a little disappointing.

Anyway, thanks for reading this post. :)

SeinDude

[Porthos]

Originally posted by SeinDude
Anyway, thanks for reading this post. :)

SeinDude Trust him. He knows George Costanza......remember when he tried to get the AA guy to apologise for a crude remark about the size of his head? Remember what happened there?

We can all learn a lesson from George Costanza. ;)

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by SeinDude
I think this is a very unfortunate situation for all sides of this issue. I can see this from all sides of this, but I just cant see how bringing up the past is going to change things.

I think we need to move forward in life and get on with life... everyone has made mistakes but imagine if everyone went around to every single person in their past who had "wronged" them and made them apologise??? One could spend the rest of their life doing that, and I just dont see what that's going to achieve.

However, I guess everyone is different and may have different views which is ok... I repect that.

I will end by saying this... anyone who "really" knows TheMase knows he isn't a racist. Everyone sees life through their own experiences, but to pass judgement based on your opinion is a little disappointing.

Anyway, thanks for reading this post. :)

SeinDude

I feel like your trivialising a very important and sad part of our history which we should never forget. The mere fact that most educated Australians realise that the early European settlers did, in fact, cause great damage to our indigenous people's culture and overall existance is a good indication that many wrongs need to be righted.
I would also like to know of the 'other' side arguments you agree with here?
Mase may not be racist, but he made racist type statements based on heresay and not fact. If you enter an argument without any 'true' understanding you wind up in trouble.
By moving forward, you mean that 'we' should forget about it, or that 'they' should forget about it? Aboriginal people have been wronged and they deserve more than having their plight forgotten about. Hey, while were at it, let's forget the holocoaust too.
I pass judgement on 'other' peoples opinions moreso than mine, but welcome to the thread, it's always good to see another point of view. I don't have to agree with it though. ;)

[Porthos]

Hate only lasts for as long as its taught. Stop teaching it.

If one side is forced to apologise to the other for something it didn't do, then the sides become more distinct. No matter what you do, you'll always be wrong.

Akin to parents that constantly remind you that you crashed the car when you were 16, apologizing often doesn't help something pass, it makes it into a big event that you aren't allowed to forget.

[SeinDude]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper


I feel like your trivialising a very important and sad part of our history which we should never forget. The mere fact that most educated Australians realise that the early European settlers did, in fact, cause great damage to our indigenous people's culture and overall existance is a good indication that many wrongs need to be righted.
I would also like to know of the 'other' side arguments you agree with here?
Mase may not be racist, but he made racist type statements based on heresay and not fact. If you enter an argument without any 'true' understanding you wind up in trouble.
By moving forward, you mean that 'we' should forget about it, or that 'they' should forget about it? Aboriginal people have been wronged and they deserve more than having their plight forgotten about. Hey, while were at it, let's forget the holocoaust too.
I pass judgement on 'other' peoples opinions moreso than mine, but welcome to the thread, it's always good to see another point of view. I don't have to agree with it though. ;)

Santos,

I never said we have to forget what happened... moving on means learning from what happened in the past and making every effort to ensure it never happens again.

Everyone has things that happen to them in their past... are you saying every single person has the right seek an apology or some compensation if they've been treated poorly in any way???

Anyway, it's healthy to have different views, but one piece of friendly advice mate... never assume what someone is thinking. I am certainly not in any trouble, nore should I be for any of my beliefs... this is a free country, dont forget that will you!! ;);)

SeinDude :)

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by SeinDude


Santos,

I never said we have to forget what happened... moving on means learning from what happened in the past and making every effort to ensure it never happens again.

Everyone has things that happen to them in their past... are you saying every single person has the right seek an apology or some compensation if they've been treated poorly in any way???

Anyway, it's healthy to have different views, but one piece of friendly advice mate... never assume what someone is thinking. I am certainly not in any trouble, nore should I be for any of my beliefs... this is a free country, dont forget that will you!! ;);)

SeinDude :)

I agree we need to move on but the Aboriginal Society of our country has said they cannot move on until they have received an apology from the federal govt.......their way of dealing with grief is different to ours and needs to be respected as well........

I really don't see how hard it is to make this small step so both sides can move forward towards true reconcilliation..........

[Harry]

I don't support an apology for two reasons.

1. An apology by the Federal Government would be on behalf of all Australians. Why should I apologise for something that happened many years before I was born?

2. An apology would be taken as an admission of guilt. This could open a floodgate of compensation claims. I read somewhere that the Canadian Government apologised to their indigenous people and it cost them millions in compensation claims. I'm sure Mansell and his fellow ATSIC cronies would be the first to put out their hands for compo and the genuine "blackfellas" will once again see very little benefit.

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by Harry
I don't support an apology for two reasons.

1. An apology by the Federal Government would be on behalf of all Australians. Why should I apologise for something that happened many years before I was born?

2. An apology would be taken as an admission of guilt. This could open a floodgate of compensation claims. I read somewhere that the Canadian Government apologised to their indigenous people and it cost them millions in compensation claims. I'm sure Mansell and his fellow ATSIC cronies would be the first to put out their hands for compo and the genuine "blackfellas" will once again see very little benefit.

As has been stated many times beforehand on this post if you read the threads

1) An apology by the Federal govt would be on behalf of the government lf the country for things that occurred between white settlement and the early 70's..........it is not saying each one of us has done something wrong it is saying the govt sorry for govt policy that caused so much wrong and hurt.

2) An apology will not open any flood gates as the courts are already dealing with these issues and have many more cases awaiting trial.......these cases are based on the facts of what happened nothing to do with the govt saying sorry.......if it was every state and territory govt would have cases lined up against them for saying sorry as they already have...........saying sorry will not result in one more cent going to ATSIC and the other cronies that rip off the people the govt set them up to look after......

You are entitled to your opinion but you should look up some of the actual facts and not rely on the hype built up in the media....

[Frodo]

My father left school when he was 12. There was no television and the whole family slept in one room. It was a coal mining village and men suffered horrible diseases from the mining. As a baby his first bed (cot) was a drawer in the kitchen. He suffered from Polio and even with vaccines available most weren't immunised for many years. The conditions of sanitation were terrible. Many had big families like my wifes Dad, one of 9 children, three of which never made it to 21 because of disease. Child mortality rates were high.
Flase teeth on the national health saw thousands of people asking to have all their teeth taken away for false ones, such was the propaganda. And if you had an autistic or downes syndrome child they were forcibly taken away to a home.

Now those were just a few conditions of the day, a world so different to today that we cannot imagine peoples minds or their decision making peocesses, and we can only try and make judgement on our ancestors by projecting todays standards on yersteryears, which is IMO very unfair. We may say that if we could go backwards in time and be able to re-make decisions then they would be different......that's all.
Sorrow for people who suffered.....yes.....for anyone, aboriginal or not.

Saying sorry on behalf of the nation for the bad deeds of our ancestors......no.......I think they were doing what they thought was right, they were doing the best they could at the time and in the circumstances, as we all do. How dare I condemn Australian grandparenrs, greatgrandparents etc who made decisions I am incapable of relating to. I would be so disrespectful if I did so. Would you so spit on your parents graves?

I was interested in the octogenarian who is kicking up a fuss about the portrayal of his father in the propaganda movie 'rabbit proof fence'. Portrayed as evil testimony shows that in fact he was a marvellous guy that did a lot for the aboriginal community he cared for.

Sorry means nothing but acceptance of wrongdoing that leads to compensation claims...that's what it is all about...money.

There are two things that aboriginals need......not words, not money, not land, not rights........HEALTH and EDUCATION.

And whilst Australians debate history, politics and other useless rubbish these people have lifespans well below the Australian average and have poor job prospects., leaving them with a meagre existence. Only when the political bickering stops and care for aboriginal real needs starts can we prove to be a caring nation.

Frodo (bigot, redneck, racist etc) I'll get in there first Joffa.

[66MunsterT]

I was interested in the octogenarian who is kicking up a fuss about the portrayal of his father in the propaganda movie 'rabbit proof fence'. Portrayed as evil testimony shows that in fact he was a marvellous guy that did a lot for the aboriginal community he cared for.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the Woman who the Film depicts, has denied that it is a true
story.
She stated it was a Hollywood type beat up to sell the story and fuel the arguments such as are happenin on this site.
The events that happened in her life were nothing like those shown in the film .
Another piece of Media Crap.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Cheers,

The Munster.

P.S Sorry for not becoming involved in this Posts discussion,
but I'm not conversant enough with the facts to argue about it.

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by Frodo
Sorry means nothing but acceptance of wrongdoing that leads to compensation claims...that's what it is all about...money.

There are two things that aboriginals need......not words, not money, not land, not rights........HEALTH and EDUCATION.

And whilst Australians debate history, politics and other useless rubbish these people have lifespans well below the Australian average and have poor job prospects., leaving them with a meagre existence. Only when the political bickering stops and care for aboriginal real needs starts can we prove to be a caring nation.



compensation claims are already being delat with in the courts and will be for many years to come based on the facts of the day........the Fed govt saying sorry will not result in any more claims that are not based on what actually happened and is recorded in hisory......

I agree with the other 2 points......unfortunately our country's politicians have always bickered (if thats a word) far to much on the things that matter most to this country.......education, environment & health amongst many others.........it's a pity they don't put the same effort into fixing and looking at what actually causes the problems instead of throwing money at bandsolutions that do nothing to fix anything long term.

As for Rabbit Proof fence.....go and see the movie and then look at the history of what did happen to mixed blood aboriginal children up until the late 60's............

it's the closest we're ever going to see about what actually happened......when it premiered up here in Darwin - many of the stolen generation commented it showed what they say happened to them.....not that actual case but the way the separations occurred and the effect it had on them even to this day.........

[KingyOrTheKing]

There are two issues here: Individuals apologizing and the government apologizing. John Howard should apologize. The reason is that he represents not only himself, and to an extent, his family, but also the country and past governments . Therefore, whatever past governments have done, he has to apologize for. As an individual, I dont think I should apologize for being white and being of the same race as those that did terrible things. OK, yes I apologize for what my ancestors did, if they did anything. But not for what all whites did in this country. If that was the case, then all Australians should apologize, regardless of their race, including Aboriginals.
BTW - Aboriginals have been treated poorly ever since captain cook, not just at the time of him.:)

[ACV]

Originally posted by Frodo


Sorry means nothing but acceptance of wrongdoing that leads to compensation claims...that's what it is all about...money.

There are two things that aboriginals need......not words, not money, not land, not rights........HEALTH and EDUCATION.




I was wondering if/when someone was going to bring this up. Call me cynical but the compensation claims bit was the first thing that i thought of when the commotion began about the sorry issue.

Your certainly correct when you say that health and education is what needs to occur to help heal the divisions between Australians indiginous and non-indiginons people. I don't think that John Howard saying sorry will achieve anything at all. For things to happen people need to be more open minded and to accept the other race, as we've seen in this thread a lot of people have preconsceptions about aboriginal people, this needs to stop. Also, the impression that i get (and this may be compleatly wrong and inappropriate) is that a lot of aboriginal people are not really prepared to forgive the actions of the past. For Australia, as a nation, to move forward the often debated actions need to be forgiven, that does not imply that they should be forgotten.

We need to stop harping on the stolen generation issue and to allow aboriginal people to feel that they are just another part of the community. No one has any magic answers to this but it will undoubtedly include improving health, education and employment prospects and above all living standards. This will help heal the rifts that exist within the Australian community more so than John Howard getting up in front of the nation and fulfilling what in any case is a questionable obligation of appologising to the aboriginal community for the wrongs committed by previous governments

[BomberBoy]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper


2. More Aboriginal people are unemployed (per capita) than non Aboriginal people because they are not given the same opportunities to gain employment that non Aboriginal people are........they are subject to discrimination by people like you.


I have to disagree with you on this one. Firstly you are generalising a bit, because i wouldn't say all employers are racist. Also there are oppurtunities of employment for Aboriginal people here in the NT (where i live). In fact the government, actually sets a certain amount of jobs (i dont have the figures with me) for indigenous people, which i think is great. With the Alice-Darwin railway being built its a good oppurtunity for work, and for training and/or retraining.

[BomberBoy]

Frodo - I support your post 100%.

What is the point of bringing up the past. We need to look to the future.

Personally, i wouldn't say sorry. Why? Because i have nothing to be sorry about. I've got some Aboriginal friends, and they are great mates. People should look beyond the colour of ones skin. On the other hand, I believe sorry is something that is being thrown around a lot. Hell anyone can say sorry. We've all done it when we don't mean it. For Example, "Sorry I'm late miss, the alarm clock didn't go off". Yeah as if your sorry. OK simple example, but it conveys my point.

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by BomberBoy


I have to disagree with you on this one. Firstly you are generalising a bit, because i wouldn't say all employers are racist. Also there are oppurtunities of employment for Aboriginal people here in the NT (where i live). In fact the government, actually sets a certain amount of jobs (i dont have the figures with me) for indigenous people, which i think is great. With the Alice-Darwin railway being built its a good oppurtunity for work, and for training and/or retraining.

Disagree all you want, but Aboriginal people are less likely to gain employment due to a lifetime of inequalities, whether it be educational opportunities, health care or employment.
As for the rail link, what happens once it's finished? Aboriginal people trained to put down railroads........Hmmm that should see them happy for ever.:rolleyes:

[BomberBoy]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper


As for the rail link, what happens once it's finished? Aboriginal people trained to put down railroads........Hmmm that should see them happy for ever.:rolleyes:

You seem to be missing the point. I used it as a real life example.

[Satay Mat]

Jars and Dreamkillers are spot on. An apology is a small but important step on behalf of the Commenwealth of Australia.


"we should move on and not keep bringing up the past"


this is a very easy position to take if you are not a part of that segment of the community which has been wronged. "oh lets just get over it and move on"....well I am sorry but the other part of society (those which have been wronged) see it differently. If I puch you in the nose then I should say sorry. I could not just say that it is all in the past and we should forget about it. For that to happen it needs to be mutually agreed, and until we have a closure on the past through an apology then we will not have mutual agreement to move on.

Secondly people are suggesting that Aboriginals should just be part of the communty like everyone else. I think that this is a choice that they must make for themselves. One of the reasons why there have been many injustices in the past has been a notion of asimilation. Assimilation is fine again if both parties agree....if they don't then forced assimilation is really "cultural" cleansing.


Satay Mat

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by BomberBoy


I have to disagree with you on this one. Firstly you are generalising a bit, because i wouldn't say all employers are racist. Also there are oppurtunities of employment for Aboriginal people here in the NT (where i live). In fact the government, actually sets a certain amount of jobs (i dont have the figures with me) for indigenous people, which i think is great. With the Alice-Darwin railway being built its a good oppurtunity for work, and for training and/or retraining.

The govt also runs a work for the dole program on Aboriginal Communities called CDEP - people on these programs are not included in unemployment figures and their numbers would far outweigh the numbers of Aboriginal people that will have a job building the railway for the next 3-4 years........

If the people on CDEP programs were included as the rest of the people on 'Work For The Dole' programs are the true figure of unemployed Aboriginal's would be much higher...........

Unfortunately govt's (both Liberal & Labor) tend to use the stats that favour them instead of the true figures..........

stats can be used to show anything they want......be it realistic or not......

[dreamkillers]

Originally posted by Satay Mat
Jars and Dreamkillers are spot on. An apology is a small but important step on behalf of the Commenwealth of Australia.


"we should move on and not keep bringing up the past"


this is a very easy position to take if you are not a part of that segment of the community which has been wronged. "oh lets just get over it and move on"....well I am sorry but the other part of society (those which have been wronged) see it differently. If I puch you in the nose then I should say sorry. I could not just say that it is all in the past and we should forget about it. For that to happen it needs to be mutually agreed, and until we have a closure on the past through an apology then we will not have mutual agreement to move on.

Secondly people are suggesting that Aboriginals should just be part of the communty like everyone else. I think that this is a choice that they must make for themselves. One of the reasons why there have been many injustices in the past has been a notion of asimilation. Assimilation is fine again if both parties agree....if they don't then forced assimilation is really "cultural" cleansing.


Satay Mat

Thanks for the support........

it's interesting that only one side of the solution says we need to move on when the other side will not move on until they receive the recognition they feel they deserve before they can even consider moving on........


As for the issue of compensation - I'd like for someone to point out the legal precedent that saying sorry in our federal parliament will result in further claims that are not already being dealt with in the courts based on the facts of the day...........

Every state and territory govt in this country has actually said sorry in their respective parliaments and not one case has resulted because of this yet for some reason people keep saying it will happen if we say it on behalf of past federal govts.........

IMO certain sections of our society use this arguement to ensure we will never 'move on' to the satisfaction of both sides.......

[ACV]

Originally posted by Satay Mat


Secondly people are suggesting that Aboriginals should just be part of the communty like everyone else. I think that this is a choice that they must make for themselves. One of the reasons why there have been many injustices in the past has been a notion of asimilation. Assimilation is fine again if both parties agree....if they don't then forced assimilation is really "cultural" cleansing.


Satay Mat

What i was trying to say when i was talking about this (and admitedly i didn't explain myself very well) was that aboriginals need to feel that they will not be treated differently because they are aboriginal. Cultural clensing, as you put it, i believe, would further exascerbate the problem. So i can't speak for anyone else but i believe that we as a nation should do everything in our power to preserve aboriginal culture as it is an integral part of the nations culture.

[evade28]

Can you tell us the difference between Austudy and Abstudy?

what about all that 'equal opportunity' crap they go on about? if these two benefits are the same (which i dont think they are) then why have two different names for them? the aboriginies are constantly made to feel different and do get treated differently (whether that be a good or bad thing).
i dont reckon i should say sorry bcos im not sorry, theres no point saying it if you dont mean it. why should i be sorry for something i didnt do? so bcos our ancestors did something wrong that makes me a criminal does it?
some of these so called aborigines are like 3/4 aussie and 1/4 aborigine, yet they always say they are aborigine, when only one of their grandparents is/was, whats with that? maybe they dont want to be called australians or whatever, but whether you/me/they like it or not it has already happened, they have adopted our way of living. and they didnt all get taken away from their homes so some of them must have willingly chosen our way of life.
it is ridiculous the way the government/settelers whoever treated them, but just cos im white doesnt mean im guillty.

[1AD]

Originally posted by evade28


what about all that 'equal opportunity' crap they go on about? if these two benefits are the same (which i dont think they are) then why have two different names for them? the aboriginies are constantly made to feel different and do get treated differently (whether that be a good or bad thing).
some of these so called aborigines are like 3/4 aussie and 1/4 aborigine, yet they always say they are aborigine, when only one of their grandparents is/was, whats with that? maybe they dont want to be called australians or whatever, but whether you/me/they like it or not it has already happened, they have adopted our way of living. and they didnt all get taken away from their homes so some of them must have willingly chosen our way of life.
it is ridiculous the way the government/settelers whoever treated them, but just cos im white doesnt mean im guillty.

So , if they identify themselves as Aboriginal then they are not an "Aussie " according to you?

If being an Aboriginal is a "Aussie " then that makes them 100% doesn't it?

Until 1969 they weren't even counted as "Aussies" and now you expect them to be proud of this fact?

Abstudy and Austudy is the same except for the means test provision. Blame the Government for the name difference.

My mother died last years and people I didn,t even know said how sorry they were. It wasn,t thier fault in any way but I look at this example to explain how I feel "sorry" is the right word. Name one person who has said that "sorry" meant that YOU were responsible.

[evade28]

well were they born in australia? yes so then theyre defined as being australian. im sure some of them use that 1/4 of aboriginal blood solely to get benefits.

im sick of them using what happened 200 years ago as an excuse for their crimes today. like stealing the coat of arms, like they own those animals, toss on i say.

and if im not sorry does that make me racist? well if it does then thats a load of crap bcos i have aborigine friends and i dont really give a rats about whether my mates are australian, chinese, italian, aboriginal, whatever.

by the way, since everyone on here refers to us AUSTRALIANS as aussie, can we not call aboriginies 'abos' or that would be being racist wouldnt it now? thats another thing which is a load of crap. its a shortened version of ppls origins and if anyone if so touchy as to get sh1tty about it then i think they should start thinking about when they use shortened versions of things. the reason i explain myself now is bcos i know at least one of you will have be pedantic enough to comment on this.