Selling out [Archive]

dennisismyhero

27 Feb 2002, 13:15

Rocco Jones

27 Feb 2002, 13:19

Sell out
1. To dispose of completely by selling.
2 To betray.
3 The Offspring.

McCartney5

27 Feb 2002, 13:27

Originally posted by Rocco Jones

3 The Offspring.

I think that about sums it up

mandy

27 Feb 2002, 13:29

Originally posted by Pornstar
I picked the second option. Nothing wrong with making a few bucks from their music, but if they change their style simply to sell more records and make more money then to me that is "selling out". Music should be a form of expression and not merely compliance to a formula for popularity.

That's harsh. What about people who not so much "change" but "evolve" to move with the times? Times change, our tastes change and sometimes artists do too.

Look at people like Madonna, George Michael, Kylie......love them or hate them, they've all been very successful in giving the masses what they want over a couple of decades. I wouldn't say any of them have "sold out". I'd say they're very astute business people.

Stealth bomber

27 Feb 2002, 14:31

I picked the second option, though with the caveat that it must be purely financially motivated and that the band's sound and image is significantly altered.

A lot of bands can assimilate trends and experiment and still stay fairly true to their identities. If they can pull that off then they can get away with it.

I also think there are some bands who don't have that much control over how many records are sold anyway....if all of a sudden one single or album cracks the charts wide open after years of moderate success, then it is pretty much beyond their control. However, the perception of the group is forever altered simply because of that new audience that arrives and pisses off the old one :)

Pornstar

27 Feb 2002, 14:55

Originally posted by mandy5

That's harsh. What about people who not so much "change" but "evolve" to move with the times? Times change, our tastes change and sometimes artists do too.

Look at people like Madonna, George Michael, Kylie......love them or hate them, they've all been very successful in giving the masses what they want over a couple of decades. I wouldn't say any of them have "sold out". I'd say they're very astute business people. Mandy, i have no problem with artists evolving - it's when they say "this really isn't my sort of thing, but i'll do it anyway to make some cash and be popular again" that i consider them to have sold out. Once you do that you are a puppet. The worst cases are when a has been tries to make a come back by doing a cover song. Tom Jones doing Kiss by Prince? Give me a break!

Darky

27 Feb 2002, 14:56

Originally posted by Pornstar
I picked the second option. Nothing wrong with making a few bucks from their music, but if they change their style simply to sell more records and make more money then to me that is "selling out". Music should be a form of expression and not merely compliance to a formula for popularity.

Pretty good assessment.

I think Megadeth are an example of maturing gradually and evolving to make their albums "more killer, less filler".

Metallica changed their producer to quite openly chase chart action. Less 9 minute thrash songs, more 4-5 minute formula hard rock. Then flogging live stuff, re-releases, special editions and off-cuts... most of which are sub-standard and token releases.

mandy

27 Feb 2002, 14:59

Originally posted by Pornstar
Mandy, i have no problem with artists evolving - it's when they say "this really isn't my sort of thing, but i'll do it anyway to make some cash and be popular again" that i consider them to have sold out. Once you do that you are a puppet. The worst cases are when a has been tries to make a come back by doing a cover song. Tom Jones doing Kiss by Prince? Give me a break!

Cool! I get ya! :)

CowboyFromHell

27 Feb 2002, 15:53

Originally posted by Rocco Jones
Sell out
1. To dispose of completely by selling.
2 To betray.
3 The Offspring.

I reckon you can add a fourth to that list........METALLICA!

Macca19

27 Feb 2002, 16:03

Option 2 is the real meaning of selling out.

A band/group that changes their musical style for the sole purpose of making lots of money.
Offspring is pretty much the prime example of this. Listen to Conspiracy of One compared to their earlier records and its almost a completely different band. No more hardcore punk tunes...just bubblegum punk crap made for the 13-15 year old market.
Blink 182 and Metallica are also sellouts.

Bands can change styles by what Mandy said by evolving. The Prodigy evolved from being a old school rave group (listen to Experience) to a band that really cant be put in any genre. They are now a band which has Electronic, Dance, Rave, Rock, Hip Hop, Funk and punk influences that cant be classed in any genre. Its just 'Prodigy music'. They didnt purposely change styles with the interest of making a dollar. They evolved like most electronic groups do over time.

CowboyFromHell

27 Feb 2002, 16:08

Originally posted by Macca19
Option 2 is the real meaning of selling out.

A band/group that changes their musical style for the sole purpose of making lots of money.
Offspring is pretty much the prime example of this. Listen to Conspiracy of One compared to their earlier records and its almost a completely different band. No more hardcore punk tunes...just bubblegum punk crap made for the 13-15 year old market.
Blink 182 and Metallica are also sellouts.

Bands can change styles by what Mandy said by evolving. The Prodigy evolved from being a old school rave group (listen to Experience) to a band that really cant be put in any genre. They are now a band which has Electronic, Dance, Rave, Rock, Hip Hop, Funk and punk influences that cant be classed in any genre. Its just 'Prodigy music'. They didnt purposely change styles with the interest of making a dollar. They evolved like most electronic groups do over time.

Macca..........would you say Pantera have "evolved" from their early glam days back in the 80's?

I would have to say they have.......to them it's really never been about seeling thousands of records, but I just thought I'd get your opinion on it (and it better be good!:D )

Macca19

27 Feb 2002, 16:08

I will say what does pi$$ me right off is when people that call any band that does well in the charts a sell out. Bands that dont change their style but just become popular for example Korn. Everybody reckons they changed their style...but i dont buy that crap. If anything Issues is twice as heavy and dark as what the self titled debut is...yet people say because they had a lot of success with Follow the Leader that they sold out. Which i find crap.

Not every band that gets success with a second or third album is a sell out.

The Hitman

27 Feb 2002, 16:08

Geez, the list is endless.

The Offspring, Blink 182, Sum41 (I don't think they were ever sold in anyway! ;)), Metallica, Eskimo Joe, and Silverchair are all prime examples of selling out.

Bands like Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters, and Green Day have evolved successfully.

I picked option two, by the way.

The Hitman

Macca19

27 Feb 2002, 16:14

Originally posted by CowboyFromHell

Macca..........would you say Pantera have "evolved" from their early glam days back in the 80's?

I would have to say they have.......to them it's really never been about seeling thousands of records, but I just thought I'd get your opinion on it (and it better be good!:D )

They definatly didnt 'sell out' from their glam days to Cowboys From Hell.
Id say its similar to how LAPD turned to Korn. LAPD was a surf rock/metal band....they changed singers and changed name to Korn and with that came a different style but a style which was still influenced from LAPD.

I havent heard any Pantera stuff before Cowboy...but id say its similar to that. Pantera definatly evolved. And they have evolved again from Cowboys to Reinventing the Steel.

CowboyFromHell

27 Feb 2002, 16:16

Originally posted by The Hitman
Geez, the list is endless.

The Offspring, Blink 182, Sum41 (I don't think they were ever sold in anyway! ;)), Metallica, Eskimo Joe, and Silverchair are all prime examples of selling out.

Bands like Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters, and Green Day have evolved successfully.

I picked option two, by the way.

The Hitman

Some good examples their Hitman........but I don't know if that Green Day one is correct. I would much prefer to listen to their older stuff compared to their new stuff.....their last album was pretty poor. Unlike Dookie, which is a classic, even though it's punk.......(and normally I hate that stuff!!! :mad: )

CowboyFromHell

27 Feb 2002, 16:21

Originally posted by Macca19

They definatly didnt 'sell out' from their glam days to Cowboys From Hell.
Id say its similar to how LAPD turned to Korn. LAPD was a surf rock/metal band....they changed singers and changed name to Korn and with that came a different style but a style which was still influenced from LAPD.

I havent heard any Pantera stuff before Cowboy...but id say its similar to that. Pantera definatly evolved. And they have evolved again from Cowboys to Reinventing the Steel.

Good answer.

I have heard a bit of their stuff before CFH, and it is not alot different, I think they just got over the way they looked back then (it really wasn't very pretty!;) )

And like you said, they definately have evolved since then. Even from FBD to TGSTK they evolved. They tried something different, esp with their guitars from album to album, but it wasn't to sell records or to sell out for that matter. It was just Pantera's way I guess.

SydneyBomber

27 Feb 2002, 17:41

Option 2 without a doubt.

I don't begrudge ANY muso making money from playing stuff they truly love, but have pity for those chasing the dollars.

Despite my ribbing RE: Pantera over the last few days, I have stated that they basically started that 'groovy thrashy stuff'. No way were they sellouts (Happy CFH?!;) ).

I also agree with Macca RE: Korn. They basically built on the Pantera blueprint, but added a lot of other stuff. Thus they became original (as opposed to LAPD).

I quite like some of their music, and I definitely wouldn't say they sold out. (Although their third album was touch & go... The last one was quite good, but the first one is still the best).

I remember hearing it BEFORE they really broke, after reading about them touring with Danzig (just after the 1st album was released), and thinking this 'sound' is really quite original - the downtuned bass, the melodic/harsh vocals and the interesting guitar phrasing and 'groovy' drums.

The thing that shi ts me now are the teenybopper crowd that has picked up on them.

When a band becomes 'trendy', many hardcore fans get turned off (myself included) by seeing something special to them blowup. If the band is staying true to itself (as I believe Korn have), good luck to them, but in the case of Metallica - it's easy to lose a lot of respect....

Now having said all of that and lost all my 'metal cred' for saying I like some Korn stuff, I'm going to go and blast some Napalm Death!:D

Macca19

27 Feb 2002, 17:48

Originally posted by SydneyBomber
The thing that shi ts me now are the teenybopper crowd that has picked up on them.

When a band becomes 'trendy', many hardcore fans get turned off (myself included) by seeing something special to them blowup. If the band is staying true to itself (as I believe Korn have), good luck to them, but in the case of Metallica - it's easy to lose a lot of respect....

It is annoying. But i reckon all teh teenies have forgotten about Korn now. Theyve moved onto Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park i reckon

Danny Chook Fan Club

27 Feb 2002, 18:09

Originally posted by The Hitman
Silverchair ... prime example of selling out.Why? Cos Daniel Johns sounds like himself rather than Eddie Vedder now? Can't agree.

If any mainstream band of today is evolving and maturing naturally, it's Silverchair.

Shinboners

27 Feb 2002, 18:46

The sell-out issue shouldn't be restricted to the bands themselves, there is the flipside, the "buy-in" by "new fans". For instance, I remember watching Frente do an in-store at Gaslight Records. They had a #1 hit with "Ordinary Angels", but hadn't had released "Accidentally Kelly Street" yet....so their star was still on the rise. Anyway, a couple of "fans" next to me made the comment, "You know, I hate all this new stuff they're playing". The only problem with their comment was that every song Frente had played was an old song that hadn't been released yet.

The Hitman

27 Feb 2002, 20:49

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
Why? Cos Daniel Johns sounds like himself rather than Eddie Vedder now? Can't agree.

If any mainstream band of today is evolving and maturing naturally, it's Silverchair.

No.

They might be maturing and evolving, but they are doing so while aiming at commercial success. One thing that sh*ts me is when a band releases a single off an album months in advance of it's actual release, which is hammered into the ground so much by radio it isn't funny, all the while advertising the single and the album everywhere months in advance.

Silverchair have sold out Mark.

The Hitman

CowboyFromHell

27 Feb 2002, 21:35

Originally posted by SydneyBomber
Despite my ribbing RE: Pantera over the last few days, I have stated that they basically started that 'groovy thrashy stuff'. No way were they sellouts (Happy CFH?!;) ).

I'm happy mate!:D

I don't mind you ribbing on Pantera at all. Gives me something to reply to and discuss!

Even if, no matter what you say, you are always wrong!:D ;) :D

I think they should re-release some of their old stuff, would be a big hit!!:D :p ;)

The_Flying_Egg

27 Feb 2002, 22:36

Whats wrong with bands wanting to sell more records?? Who here can say they don't like money??

Metallica did get Bob Rock in to sell more records and now there music is different. But I don't care, coz they're music is still awesome

And if they get more success by it, best of luck to them

Squeak

28 Feb 2002, 07:37

Why wouldn't you want to make money from doing what you love. If you can do that while sticking to your principles musically, then good on you. If you feel the need to change to please the masses, then there is no doubt (hint hint) that you have sold out.

BTW, Silverchair kick arse compared to 6 years ago. Listen to Tomorrow, see how shyte of a song it is.

Danny Chook Fan Club

28 Feb 2002, 08:45

Originally posted by Squeak
Silverchair kick arse compared to 6 years ago. Listen to Tomorrow, see how shyte of a song it is. I was thinking the very same thing. Good point Squeak.

Pornstar

28 Feb 2002, 09:02

Originally posted by Squeak
BTW, Silverchair kick arse compared to 6 years ago. Listen to Tomorrow, see how shyte of a song it is. All a matter of opinion/taste of course, but I think the reverse. That song they have out at the moment; Watching you watch over me or whatever the hell it is called is simply embarrassing. It is a VERY bad song, and a far cry from the stuff they used to do.

I agree with Hitman on this one.

Darky

28 Feb 2002, 09:23

Originally posted by Pornstar
All a matter of opinion/taste of course, but I think the reverse. That song they have out at the moment; Watching you watch over me or whatever the hell it is called is simply embarrassing. It is a VERY bad song, and a far cry from the stuff they used to do.

I agree with Hitman on this one.

Not sure if that makes them a sell out - I reckon the song is just crap!

Their style hasn't necessarily been changed though - when they started they were derivative (from Pearl Jam, STP, Nirvana) and the opening intro to their newie (sounds like formula Creed/Nickelback/Staind/whoever) shows they are still derivative to an extent.

Dr AlfAndrews

28 Feb 2002, 21:51

I suppose signing a contract with a major company usually means that you have to record the music that your record company wants you to record.

The A & R people of major record companies are almost invariably people who do not have a creative bone in their bodies ... and their tastebuds are usually located somewhere between their buttocks. As result, creative young bands who get "lucky" are often expected to stick to a formula. This will affect the way the sound, the way they look, what they wear etc. etc.

I think changing your musical style in order to become more popular can't be all bad, really. Imagine you're just starting out. You can't sing to save your life, you can't even tune your guitar, let alone play it. You do a few gigs and everyone boos you off stage ... so, what do you do? Well, if you've got any brains, you go off and practise a bit ... improve your singing ... improve your playing ... experiment ... develop your creativity ... then go back and do a few more gigs ... and lo and behold, a few people actually start to like you.

Now, what's wrong with that?

As for bands who stop experimenting ... There probably comes a time when you've pretty much crystallised your style. You've pretty much defined yourself. After half a dozen albums and 10 years of touring the world you finally reckon you've got it nailed. So, you stop trying to reinvent the wheel every time you make a record. You've settled into a groove. Now, a groove can become a rut .... in which case, your next move should be to break up. But it doesn't have to be a rut. It might just be a comfort zone ... a place where you feel you belong. And there's nothing wrong with that either. It doesn't mean you've sold out. It just means you've made it. Congratulations.

TwiggyDunn

28 Feb 2002, 22:21

Artists and bands evolve and over time broaden their influences.

Art is subjective so i personally dont think its fair that the fans put such constraints on artists who are only building on their creativity. Maybe if bands/artists make such a drastic change they should consider a name change?

Speaking of 'Change' it is tough for a lot of fans to take but in the end they have to realize an arist is just that an artist.

Then there are hitmakers and people who are on bandwagons - the clones of popular music that have great success but that is just trends and current music and programmers will follow the bandwagon or apple cart wanting their peice of the 'in' thing.

TwiggyDunn

28 Feb 2002, 22:30

Pantera were definately a glam band. Ive got them on the front cover of Metal Forces in pink tights and pink streaks in their hair. Pretty funny! And you dont want to ask Rex about what he used to call himself back those days - not a happy camper! LOL

Credit to Pantera - from cowboys to Vulgar they jumped leaps and bounds and trade marked a lot of sounds to influence the whole metal movement. Theyve certainly not moved forward with recent albums but I would say that is because the band unit hasnt been a happy one and Id say they are now finnished with Phil's ego out of control.

TwiggyDunn

28 Feb 2002, 22:39

its usually fans or critics who will label someone a sell out

and lets not forget how fickle some fans and critics can be

change shouldnt be such a bad thing but it does scare a lot of people.

is it such a terrible that an artists music reaches more people? a lot of die hards take offence to this because their pet is out of the bag. ..or they dont want to feel like they are listening to the same stuff as joe average who is a boring pencil neck