View Full Version : Fitzroy
Port Adelaide 1870
14 Feb 2001, 04:28
1. If Fitzroy still have So many supporters and members left in Melbourne.
i.e not supporters of the AFL induced (and for its own benefit named )Brisbane Lions
But supporters of the F.F.C. as are still registered as a Football club in MELBOURNE.
Why dont all you guys, with your board, sit down work it out, go to Junction oval
form a playing team, go thru old members lists and contact them, get sponsors,
get players .....and put another team on the deck....in the VFA / L
Dont rely on all those other Prestons, coburgs, Richmonds etc...
why cant this once great Fitzroy club do something so simple, when clubs such as coburg and preston can field sides......from what we are lead to believe there are 60,000 Fitzroy supporters in Melbourne..that equates to a heck of a lot more than those VFA/L clubs could ever dream to muster.
Why cant this be done ?
PA1870
Fat Pizza
14 Feb 2001, 06:28
This sounds good.
Do enough people still have the passion to make it work?
The AFL still influence the VFL, so it would be very difficult for Fitzroy to get in.
I'm happy enough to watch an occasional Fitzroy Reds game & chat on here with fellow Roys, but if the Roys had our own team in the VFL, I'd be there, especially at the Junction.
------------------
Fat Pizzas. They're Big & they're Cheesy.
No, not the Junction, Brunswick St!!
See that suggestion brings me back to my original questions.
Are the FFC Inc allowed to do that?
Was there any sort of non-competition clause in merger documents relating to whether or not FFC as it stands now, being able to build up it's football infrastructure and once again field a stand-alone team in a competition?
Surely someone out there must know.
Let's say that they are allowed to do it...
"Their colours, logo and memorabilia were bequeathed to Brisbane and the AFL has threatened legal action to stop them using the Fitzroy name." (taken from a 1998 news article)
So if they can't use the name, the colours or the logo, or have any of their memorabilia etc etc etc........
Would a team like that - be the saviour that so many are looking for?
For all we know - the team would have to be called something like the the Brunswick St Bunnies, wear purple and green stripes and play out of a backwoods school ground. (Worst case scenario of course)
Would that be enough for all those wanting to follow Fitzroy?
The major problem is infrastructure (ie: playing ground, social facilities, players, staff, etc, etc).
Still, I'm up for it! Hell, if the club can get the ball rolling, I'd be willing to help out.
Just for a touch of irony, I suggest that if we do have our own team in the VFL, we call ourselves the "Fitzroy Bears".
Roylion
14 Feb 2001, 11:56
Haven't you asked this question before PA1870? And didn't I give you answer on another thread which you started to which you didn't reply?
By the terms of the Deed of Arrangement (signed and agreed to by the administrator of the Fitzroy Football Club) all Fitzroy's memorabilia held by the club in 1996 belongs to the Brisbane Lions. There is also the small matter of a debenture of approximately $800,000 held by Brisbane against the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd.. According to what I have been told the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. have questioned the legal validity of that debenture, but have been advised that if they took it to court they would most likely lose.
What's to stop Fitzroy forming a stand-alone team in the VFL?
Possibly at least four things....
1. The AFL.
They have a huge influence over the make-up and running of the VFL. While the AFL do NOT have any rights to the FFC logo, they do own the trademark Lion emblem, now worn by Brisbane and the colour scheme/design of the Brisbane Lions guernsey which of course is so similar to Fitzroy's. As part of the merger the right to use Fitzroy's colours and the Lion emblem in the AFL competition was granted by the AFL to Brisbane as part of their licence agreement.
In 1999 when Coburg wanted to wear the FFC jumper and use the Fitzroy name, colours, jumper design etc., in the VFL, which to all intents and purposes is AFL controlled, Brisbane needed to give their consent. There is also some issue over whether the name 'Fitzroy' can be used. To protect Brisbane's interests in Victoria and to give Brisbane a greater chance of developing their membership in Victoria the AFL is not keen to have any team called Fitzroy in any senior league, unless it has the blessing of (read permission) of Brisbane. Brisbane had no objection for the Coburg FC to use the name Fitzroy the guernsey design and colours and the Lion emblem, but whether they would support a stand-alone Fitzroy team with all the old trappings is debatable.
2. Lack of Money. Depending on whom you talk to, Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. has anywhere between $60,000 and $300,000 in the bank. This includes the proceeds of the FFC Social Club Ltd. I strongly doubt whether having $60,000 as assets is enough to establish a VFL club from essentially scratch. Nor do Fitzroy have satisfactory facilties. Brunswick St. would be ideal, but is it up to the level required?
There would have to be a lot of work and a lot of fundraising before a stand-alone team could operate. The licence fee for stand-alone teams per year is about $80,000 a year (from memory..so don't quote me) Again (from memory) a licence fee for an aligned team is about $30,000-35,000 per annum. I'd also predict that the cost to run a VFL team is likely to rise sharply in the next few years as well, so its not particularly viable to put a team in if it can be sustained over a long period of time.
This seven year period where the FFC Ltd., cannot take legal action to win the "right" to wear their old colours, use the Lion logo, even use the name "Fitzroy" in competition, without the AFL’s permission, means that if the AFL refuse that permission there is nothing FFC Ltd. can do.
However after the seven years, who knows. It’s important to remember that the Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. sponsors the Fitzroy reds, it does not own them. It’s unlikely anyway that the AFL would worry about whether an amateur club in the D-Grade division of the VAFA anyway.
It was interesting that my sources told me that the VFL effectively poured cold water on the idea that Tasmania and Fitzroy do a deal. There dosen’t appear any logical reason why they would do so, as Fitzroy’s presence would improve crowds, exposure etc etc. Pressure from the AFL perhaps?
3. Brisbane Lions. For two reasons.
a) the formation of a stand-alone Fitzroy team in the VFL might dilute the Lions' Victorian presence and support.
b) the debenture of $800,000 that Fitzroy owes them. This debt was assigned to Brisbane as part of the merger agreement. Brisbane could theoretically claim this at any time although I beleive they are unlikely to do so. In any case by the terms of the merger agreement Fitzroy Football Club Ltd. cannot take legal action against any legal entity (including the Brisbane Lions) for a period of seven years...so even if the debenture was to be cleared, it wouldn't happen until the beginning of 2004. Legal advice that Fitzroy has had however has suggested strongly to them that if they challenged the validity of the debenture they would lose.
4. Space in the competition. The VFA do not want anymore than 16 teams and preferably 14. If further alignments between AFL sides and VFL sides occur, space may be freed up...who knows. However at this stage it looks unlikely, despite persistant rumours that of the unaligned VFL teams, Preston is the one that is in financial trouble.
5. The Fitzroy administration. Their current emphasis at the moment is on the Fitzroy Reds in the Amateurs and making them successful. After Coburg, they are wary getting their fingers burnt again with an alignment and also realise the work involved in getting a stand-alone team in the VFL. As for the 60,000 people who the directors believe FOLLOW Fitzroy, only 8,000 were members of Fitzroy in the last year of its AFL existance and 1,000 odd were Coburg-Fitzroy members last year. There's no guarantee that many would muster enough interest and get behind the club again anyway. I went to a Fitzroy meeting last year in 2000 where 10 people turned up! The AGM had about 80. And yet it's evident there are many Fitzroy people out there..some with the Brisbane Lions some with the Reds etc etc etc.
Fat Pizza
14 Feb 2001, 14:55
It sounds like The Fitzroy Redz is the way to go.
------------------
Fat Pizzas. They're Big & they're Cheesy.
Port Adelaide 1870
14 Feb 2001, 16:00
Roy Lion,
sorry if I did ask the question before. It is just very interesting to see how the VFL is now bowing to the might of the AFL, shutting all doors to the FFC so as not to offend or step on the toes of the AFL.
Once they were adversaries..the VFA and the VFL. The AFL is now too strong and its influences transcend all areas of Melbourne business and life, so much so that it is impossible for the VFA/L to be too independant in a community that has the fingers of the AFL pervading it. The VFA/L are SUBSEVIENT as they should be. ( good little boys )
Sure, they are independant, Sure they have their own sponsors, but watch how all this would evaporate should they raise the ire of the AFL.
I say Go for it Fitzroy! Let Brisbane be who they want to be. But they arent and can never be Fitzroy, SURE the AFL is telling us they are part Fitzroy, Sure the AFL have got Fitzroys memorabilia and given it to Brisbane....But the FFC still exists for all intents and purposes according to all those posts from those in the Know.
So make your club great again guys......
If it means building the Reds into a VFL standard side...do it.
Show those that want your club dead that they just cant rip your heartout and give it to a Bears club and tell you its an amalgamation...when the true believers and original members know its not.
If the FFC still exists...it still exists..and no amount of AFL/Brisbane FC propoganda can stop it.
there thats my say.
PA1870
Sorry PA1870 but Fitzroy merged with Brisbane.
It was not some stand in club, it was not West Adelaide in disguise...it was Fitzroy.
It is not some AFL propaganda telling us this...it actually happened. Denial is pointless and against the interest of Fitzroy...who now form part of the Brisbane Lions.
ptw
Mobbenfuhrer
14 Feb 2001, 16:23
Each to our own opinion, ptw http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
Hallowed be thy Roy
Mobbenfuhrer
hmmmmmm....yes alright.
http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/smile.gif
ptw
Port Adelaide 1870
15 Feb 2001, 03:39
ptw,
I really am not sure of the Bears/lions scenario, but from all the posts by Fitzroy members and having read the book by Dyson Hore -Lacy, it appears only the Football operations of Fitzroy were merged with Brisbane.....from what I can gather, ALL other areas of the club remain with the F.F.C. ltd...Fitzroy still operate as a company in Melbourne from what I know. Correct me if Im wrong.
This is why so many Fitzroy supporters are still hesitant in following a Brisbane based club. Many have embraced the bears because they have no real choice
That is were the image of Fitzroy has been sent to for them ( as arranged by the AFL)
so their is some link .
If what Ive said is totally incorrect, someone please correct me and set ptw and myself straight.
PA1870
IMO, there's no doubt that Fitzroy, or at least part of it (that part being the football operations), was merged with the Brisbane Bears in 1996. The sticking issue for many (or at least, this is how I am seeing it), is that a lot of people viewed the merger process as more of a takeover process which was fueled by the AFL, the Brisbane Bears, and the creditor appointed administrator of the FFC - without any input from any of the Fitzroy directors or members (although, the Bears members never had any say in the matter either).
From where I am seeing the issue, it's not whether people believe there was a merger or part takeover, it's whether people are willing to accept what the Brisbane Lions are offering as a club for Fitzroy people to support. That's what is dividing opinion (something that will never change).
Getting a stand-alone Fitzroy side in the VFL would be a huge, and almost impossible task (considering the current climate of the leauge). If it were an option that Fitzroy were to look at, it would have my full support (I'd even go along to help out where I could).
However, for the moment I'd prefer to see the Roys focus primarily on the Reds, Juniors, and also the possibility of an U/19's side (to complete the family).
Coming from a Brisbane Lions supporter's point of view, I'd also like to see some form of reconcilliation between the FFC and BB-FFC (aka Brisbane Lions). I think this could only benefit both organisations. I don't expect everyone to agree - but that's just my 2c worth anyway.
Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870:
.
Many have embraced the bears because they have no real choice
PA1870
PA1870, c'mon man get it right.....those people have embraced the Bribane Lions NOT the Bears.
The Bears ceased to exist on 4th July 1996, when the merger agreement was signed.
It is constant referals to the Brisbane Lions as being the Brisbane 'Bears' that certainly aren't helping the whole process.
The Brisbane Lions aren't Fitzroy, and they aren't the Bears....the are a product of the 2.
Port Adelaide 1870
15 Feb 2001, 14:54
Originally posted by Danni:
PA1870, c'mon man get it right.....those people have embraced the Bribane Lions NOT the Bears.
The Bears ceased to exist on 4th July 1996, when the merger agreement was signed.
It is constant referals to the Brisbane Lions as being the Brisbane 'Bears' that certainly aren't helping the whole process.
The Brisbane Lions aren't Fitzroy, and they aren't the Bears....the are a product of the 2.
Sorry Danni , Brisbane Lions !
PA1870