View Full Version : All-Time Greatest Cricketers
The only form of the game that can be used to attempt to compare players is thru the long version of the game, Tests/First Class.
There have been so many changes in cricket and culture over the century (matted pitches, uncovered pitches, 4-8 ball overs, round-arm, under-arm, professionalism, introduction of sub-continent nations, the war years, transportation, the length of the average cricketer's career, etc) that it is not right to place any modern cricketer automatically ahead of the greats of a bygone era. Within each era everyone played under the same rules/structures/conditions, and certain players rose far above others. So, relatively speaking, and not thru statistics alone, is it possible to compare.
So many greats of the 1800's-on played first class cricket like test cricketers play tests these days. Also, in those earliest decades (1800s-1940s) the best and most competitive standards of skill/competition was actually in first class cricket. In those days, the English especially, had the elite competitions, talent, etc. So county games against each other were fierce.
One thing which might give precedence to modern players is that once the inception of nations like India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka occured, test players have been more tested in regards to conditions/wickets and millions more people of talent filtering thru to Test level. The early days did have uncovered wickets, did have green tops and soft sticky wickets to test them, and they did have all the best spinners and seamers probably ever in history all at one time. Was the dominant art - spin/swing. So it's not completely automatic assuming modern players were generally better.
The golden eras of cricket talent were in the late 1800's-1980s. Since then, there has been a general drop in the average talent, therefore those really great players which are found in every era have still risen in the period since. But their greatness has been helped by the mediocrity of so many test playing nations and the talent.
Pre-Bradman, England and Australia were powerhouses full of such great talent, and just constantly playing each other, yet they all maintain their great statistical achievments on par or better with today's players.
Bradman era, still so many all-time greats constantly competed against each other from both England and Australia. Just constantly at each other, all-time great bowlers vs all-time great batters. Same in the post-Bradman era, all the names.
Same situation happened in the late 1960's-1980's when right across the world every nation had such all-time great players. Lillee, Richards, Lloyd, Imran, Miandad, Gavaskar, Hadlee, Crowe, Botham, Willis, Gooch, Gower, Dev, Chappell, Walters, Roberts, Garner, Holding, Marshall, etc.
Since then, generally, there've been less in each team competing against each other. Players have been able to pile on the runs or take bagful of wickets against weaker opposition more regularly inbetween going head-to-head with the very best teams/players again. Warne, for instance, had only Lara, Kallis, Tendulkar really. Lara had only really Akram, McGrath, Pollock. Where the next time they meet is 2-4 years bookending perhaps 8 tests against lesser opposition.
Here then is a list broken down into categories and into nations, listed in roughly an order of the era they belonged to. Most of those names people will never have heard of. Their stats low. But it would be well worth any cricket fans while to read up on each player thru cricinfo and other resource sites, and just consider the greatness they were held in at their time.
I've selected only the most storied names, people who performed statistically BUT ALSO who were actually considered by their peers and people who saw them as absolute champions, who exemplified also more than just run-scoring or wicket-taking ability, but bigger than life characters, people who helped change the game in their nations and globally. Just like Warne today is considered a champ because he reignited interest in cricket and leg-spin, so in the same way many of these names did likewise.
The idea then is that from this list, which is an attempt at a most definitive list of the all-time greats of the game, Big Footy posters can nominate a top 20 greatest in their opinion or even an all-time XI from this list and post it for all to view.
The way I've done the categorizing is that under 'Batsman' for instance, I've listed all the very best players from each nation in their history. So there'll be some names there that people will think, "what the hell is Ian Chappell doing in the 'batsman' list alongside Lara, Bradman, etc". It's not to be taken that way. The categories just split them up, but within each is just listed the all-time greats of each nation.
You can also add to the list, if you remember someone I've forgotten to add.
ALL-TIME CRICKET GREATS
All-Rounders
Maurice Tate (ENG)
Frank Woolley (ENG)
Bill Lockwood (ENG)
Bobby Peel (ENG)
Wilfred Rhodes (ENG)
WG Grace (ENG)
Bill Edrich (ENG)
Tony Greig (ENG)
Ian Botham (ENG)
-----------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Charles Macartney (AUS)
Monty Noble (AUS)
George Giffen (AUS)
Keith Miller (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
--------------------
Imran Khan (PAK)
-------------------
Richard Hadlee (NZ)
Chris Cairns (NZ)
-------------------
Chaminda Vaas (SL)
-------------------
Trevor Goddard (SAF)
Aubrey Faulkner (SAF)
Charlie Llewellyn (SAF)
Trevor Goddard (SAF)
Mike Proctor (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
Jacques Kallis (SAF)
-------------------
Amar Singh (IND)
Vinoo Mankad (IND)
Chandu Borde (IND)
Bapu Nadkarni (IND)
Kapil Dev (IND)
-------------------
Learie Constantine (WI)
Garry Sobers (WI)
-------------------
Spinners
Hedley Verity (ENG)
Charlie Parker (ENG)
Alfred Freeman (ENG)
Ted Peate (ENG)
John Briggs (ENG)
Bobby Peel (ENG)
Colin Blythe (ENG)
Wilfred Rhodes (ENG)
John Wardle (ENG)
Willie Bates (ENG)
Jim Laker (ENG)
Tony Lock (ENG)
Derek Underwood (ENG)
----------------------
Herbert Hordern (AUS)
Hugh Trumble (AUS)
Clarrie Grimmett (AUS)
Bill O'Reilly (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
Shane Warne (AUS)
----------------------
Adam Vettori (NZ)
----------------------
Abdul Qadir (PAK)
---------------------
Muttiah Muralitharan (SL)
---------------------
Hugh Tayfield (SAF)
Bert Vogler (SAF)
--------------------
Bapu Nadkarni (IND)
Bhagwat Chandresekhar (IND)
Subhash Gupte (IND)
Ghulam Ahmed (IND)
Erapalli Prasanna (IND)
Dilip Doshi (IND)
Bishan Bedi (IND)
Anil Kumble (IND)
----------------------
Sonny Ramadhin (WI)
Lance Gibbs (WI)
---------------------
Pace Bowlers
John Jackson (ENG)
George Freeman (ENG)
Bill Lockwood (ENG)
George Lohmann (ENG)
Tom Richardson (ENG)
Bill Bowes (ENG)
Jack Hearne (ENG)
Syd Barnes (ENG)
Maurice Tate (ENG)
Alec Bedser (ENG)
Harold Larwood (ENG)
Bill Voce (ENG)
Brian Statham (ENG)
Frank Tyson (ENG)
Fred Trueman (ENG)
John Snow (ENG)
Bob Willis (ENG)
Ian Botham (ENG)
--------------------
Fred Spofforth (AUS)
Charlie Turner (AUS)
John Ferris (AUS)
Ernie Jones (AUS)
Keith Miller (AUS)
Bill Johnston (AUS)
Ray Lindwall (AUS)
Alan Davidson (AUS)
Graham McKenzie (AUS)
Dennis Lillee (AUS)
Jeff Thomson (AUS)
Jason Gillespie (AUS)
Ernie Toshack (AUS)
Terry Alderman (AUS)
Bruce Reid (AUS)
Craig McDermott (AUS)
Glenn McGrath (AUS)
----------------------
Richard Hadlee (NZ)
---------------------
Fazal Mahmood (PAK)
Waqar Younis (PAK)
Wasim Akram (PAK)
---------------------
Chaminda Vaas (SL)
---------------------
Neil Adcock (SAF)
Peter Pollock (SAF)
Mike Proctor (SAF)
Garth le Roux (SAF)
Allan Donald (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
---------------------
Amar Singh (IND)
Kapil Dev (IND)
Javagal Srinath (IND)
---------------------
Charlie Griffith (WI)
Wes Hall (WI)
Andy Roberts (WI)
Michael Holding (WI)
Joel Garner (WI)
Malcolm Marshall (WI)
Ian Bishop (WI)
Curtly Ambrose (WI)
Courtney Walsh (WI)
Colin Croft (WI)
-----------------------
Wicket Keepers
Les Ames (ENG)
Godfrey Evans (ENG)
Bob Taylor (ENG)
Alan Knott (ENG)
-------------------
Don Tallon (AUS)
Bert Oldfield (AUS)
Wally Grout (AUS)
Rodney Marsh (AUS)
Ian Healy (AUS)
Adam Gilcrhist (AUS)
---------------------
KC Sangakkara (SL)
--------------------
Ken Wadsworth (NZ)
John Reid (NZ)
Ian Smith (NZ)
------------------
Andy Flower (ZIM)
-------------------
Wasim Bari (PAK)
Moin Khan (PAK)
---------------------
Denis Lindsay (SAF)
John Waite (SAF)
Dave Richardson (SAF)
Mark Boucher (SAF)
---------------------
Farokh Engineer (IND)
Syed Kirmani (IND)
--------------------
Deryk Murray (WI)
Jeff Dujon (WI)
------------------
Batsman
Kumar Ranjitsinhji (ENG)
WG Grace (ENG)
Les Ames (ENG)
Phil Mead (ENG)
Maurice Leyland (ENG)
Frank Woolley (ENG)
Patsy Hendren (ENG)
Eddie Paynter (ENG)
Ernest Tyldesley (ENG)
Joe Hardstaff (ENG)
Cyril Washbrook (ENG)
Tom Graveney (ENG)
Herbert Sutcliffe (ENG)
Jack Hobbs (ENG)
Len Hutton (ENG)
Walter Hammond (ENG)
Peter May (ENG)
Denis Compton (ENG)
Dennis Amiss (ENG)
Ken Barrington (ENG)
Colin Cowdrey (ENG)
John Edrich (ENG)
Ted Dexter (ENG)
Geoff Boycott (ENG)
Graham Gooch (ENG)
David Gower (ENG)
------------------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Warren Bardsley (AUS)
Charles Macartney (AUS)
Victor Trumper (AUS)
Clem Hill (AUS)
Bill Brown (AUS)
Bob Cowper (AUS)
Colin McDonald (AUS)
Lindsey Hassett (AUS)
Sid Barnes (AUS)
Bill Ponsford (AUS)
Bill Woodfull (AUS)
Donald Bradman (AUS)
Stan McCabe (AUS)
Norm O'Neill (AUS)
Neil Harvey (AUS)
Bob Simpson (AUS)
Bill Lawry (AUS)
Arthur Morris (AUS)
Ian Redpath (AUS)
Ian Chappell (AUS)
Doug Walters (AUS)
Greg Chappell (AUS)
Alan Border (AUS)
Dean Jones (AUS)
David Boon (AUS)
Steve Waugh (AUS)
Mark Waugh (AUS)
Damien Martyn (AUS)
Mark Taylor (AUS)
Michael Slater (AUS)
Matt Hayden (AUS)
Justin Langer (AUS)
Adam Gilchrist (AUS)
Ricky Ponting (AUS)
---------------------
Conrad Hunte (WI)
Basil Butcher (WI)
Clive Walcott (WI)
Everton Weekes (WI)
Frank Worrell (WI)
George Headley (WI)
Seymour Nurse (WI)
Rohan Kanhai (WI)
Garry Sobers (WI)
Alvin Kallicharran (WI)
Roy Fredericks (WI)
Clive Lloyd (WI)
Gordon Greenidge (WI)
Desmond Haynes (WI)
Richie Richardson (WI)
Viv Richards (WI)
Brian Lara (WI)
----------------------
Jackie McGlew (SAF)
Herbie Taylor (SAF)
Eric Rowan (SAF)
Dudley Nourse (SAF)
Bruce Mitchell (SAF)
Colin Bland (SAF)
Clive Rice (SAF)
Eddie Barlow (SAF)
Graeme Pollock (SAF)
Barry Richards (SAF)
Garry Kirsten (SAF)
Jacques Kallis (SAF)
----------------------
Dave Houghton (ZIM)
Andy Flower (ZIM)
---------------------
Aravinda de Silva (SL)
Sanath Jayasuriya (SL)
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)
KC Sangakkara (SL)
----------------------
Glenn Turner (NZ)
Martin Crowe (NZ)
----------------------
Hanif Mohammad (PAK)
Zaheer Abbas (PAK)
Javed Miandad (PAK)
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)
------------------------
Nawab of Pataudi (IND)
Vijay Hazare (IND)
Polly Umrigar (IND)
Gundappa Viswanath (IND)
Sunil Gavaskar (IND)
Dilip Vengsarker (IND)
Mohammad Azharuddin (IND)
Ravi Shastri (IND)
Sachin Tendulkar (IND)
Rahul Dravid (IND)
-------------------------
Captains
WG Grace (ENG)
Douglas Jardine (ENG)
Colin Cowdrey (ENG)
Len Hutton (ENG)
Percy Chapman (ENG)
Peter May (ENG)
Ray Illingworth (ENG)
Mike Brearley (ENG)
---------------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Lindsey Hassett (AUS)
Bill Woodfull (AUS)
Joe Darling (AUS)
Monty Noble (AUS)
Donald Bradman (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
Bob Simpson (AUS)
Ian Chappell (AUS)
Greg Chappell (AUS)
Alan Border (AUS)
Mark Taylor (AUS)
Steve Waugh (AUS)
---------------------
Javed Miandad (PAK)
Imran Khan (PAK)
--------------------
Hansie Cronje (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
--------------------
Geoff Howarth (NZ)
---------------------
Arjuna Ranatunga (SL)
---------------------
Nawab of Pataudi (IND)
Sunil Gavaskar (IND)
----------------------
Frank Worrell (WI)
John Goddard (WI)
Gary Sobers (WI)
Clive Lloyd (WI)
---------------------
enough of these stupid threads, stop making the udder, that udder has been dry for a long time
Fantastic work g.g. Comprehensive.
I'll focus on the Australians on your list.
Keepers: I wonder if Don Tallon and Bert Oldfield are worthy of a spot. Tallon was regarded by his contemporaries as the best keeper ever and Oldfield played 54 Tests.
Spin bowlers: Stuart MacGill would push for a spot. Bert Ironmonger is another.
Batsmen: Sid Barnes, Kepler Wessels (Aus and SA), Jack Ryder, Norm O'Neill (one of the least spoken of great batsmen), Damien Martyn. Archie Jackson could have been anything.
Pace bowlers: Jason Gillespie is the name that immediately springs to mind. Bill Whitty also had an exceptional but short career. Graham McKenzie is another.
All-Rounders: Greg Matthews' contribution is underrated - I think because he was often selected as a bowler with batting ability when really, it was probably the other way around. Also Alan Davidson and Ray Lindwall could easily shift into the all-rounder category.
But you didn't miss anyone of real import. Great job.
Fantastic work g.g. Comprehensive.
I'll focus on the Australians on your list.
Keepers: I wonder if Don Tallon and Bert Oldfield are worthy of a spot. Tallon was regarded by his contemporaries as the best keeper ever and Oldfield played 54 Tests.
Spin bowlers: Stuart MacGill would push for a spot. Bert Ironmonger is another.
Batsmen: Sid Barnes, Kepler Wessels (Aus and SA), Jack Ryder, Norm O'Neill (one of the least spoken of great batsmen), Damien Martyn. Archie Jackson could have been anything.
Pace bowlers: Jason Gillespie is the name that immediately springs to mind. Bill Whitty also had an exceptional but short career. Graham McKenzie is another.
All-Rounders: Greg Matthews' contribution is underrated - I think because he was often selected as a bowler with batting ability when really, it was probably the other way around. Also Alan Davidson and Ray Lindwall could easily shift into the all-rounder category.
But you didn't miss anyone of real import. Great job.
Thanks POBT.
You're on the ball tho, because every single one of those Aussies you mentioned that I left out, I had in there originally, and wanted to put them in, especially Norm O'Neill and Graham Mckenzie.
scooter600x
11 Jan 2007, 12:55
ALL-TIME CRICKET GREATS
Chris Cairns (NZ)
Dilip Doshi (IND)
Ian Smith (NZ)
Mike Brearley (ENG)
Made me laugh
Made me laugh
I can understand why you would laugh, because you misinterpreted or maybe didn't want to read thru the initial stuff I wrote explaining why some names are there.
But, to repeat, I broke it down, tho it doesn't appear that way, into only the best that each nation has produced. It cannot be disputed that names like Ian Smith and Dilip Doshi are in the list of all-time best NZ and Indian cricketers. While Mike Brearley has always been considered one of the all-time greatest captains in history. As a batsman, he didn't make the list, did he.
From here, it would be a matter of people personally selecting their all-time top 10, top 20, top 50 lists. As I've not really left out any major names.
Marto121
11 Jan 2007, 14:39
The only form of the game that can be used to attempt to compare players is thru the long version of the game, Tests/First Class.
There have been so many changes in cricket and culture over the century (matted pitches, uncovered pitches, 4-8 ball overs, round-arm, under-arm, professionalism, introduction of sub-continent nations, the war years, transportation, the length of the average cricketer's career, etc) that it is not right to place any modern cricketer automatically ahead of the greats of a bygone era. Within each era everyone played under the same rules/structures/conditions, and certain players rose far above others. So, relatively speaking, and not thru statistics alone, is it possible to compare.
So many greats of the 1800's-on played first class cricket like test cricketers play tests these days. Also, in those earliest decades (1800s-1940s) the best and most competitive standards of skill/competition was actually in first class cricket. In those days, the English especially, had the elite competitions, talent, etc. So county games against each other were fierce.
One thing which might give precedence to modern players is that once the inception of nations like India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka occured, test players have been more tested in regards to conditions/wickets and millions more people of talent filtering thru to Test level. The early days did have uncovered wickets, did have green tops and soft sticky wickets to test them, and they did have all the best spinners and seamers probably ever in history all at one time. Was the dominant art - spin/swing. So it's not completely automatic assuming modern players were generally better.
The golden eras of cricket talent were in the late 1800's-1980s. Since then, there has been a general drop in the average talent, therefore those really great players which are found in every era have still risen in the period since. But their greatness has been helped by the mediocrity of so many test playing nations and the talent.
Pre-Bradman, England and Australia were powerhouses full of such great talent, and just constantly playing each other, yet they all maintain their great statistical achievments on par or better with today's players.
Bradman era, still so many all-time greats constantly competed against each other from both England and Australia. Just constantly at each other, all-time great bowlers vs all-time great batters. Same in the post-Bradman era, all the names.
Same situation happened in the late 1960's-1980's when right across the world every nation had such all-time great players. Lillee, Richards, Lloyd, Imran, Miandad, Gavaskar, Hadlee, Crowe, Botham, Willis, Gooch, Gower, Dev, Chappell, Walters, Roberts, Garner, Holding, Marshall, etc.
Since then, generally, there've been less in each team competing against each other. Players have been able to pile on the runs or take bagful of wickets against weaker opposition more regularly inbetween going head-to-head with the very best teams/players again. Warne, for instance, had only Lara, Kallis, Tendulkar really. Lara had only really Akram, McGrath, Pollock. Where the next time they meet is 2-4 years bookending perhaps 8 tests against lesser opposition.
Here then is a list broken down into categories and into nations, listed in roughly an order of the era they belonged to. Most of those names people will never have heard of. Their stats low. But it would be well worth any cricket fans while to read up on each player thru cricinfo and other resource sites, and just consider the greatness they were held in at their time.
I've selected only the most storied names, people who performed statistically BUT ALSO who were actually considered by their peers and people who saw them as absolute champions, who exemplified also more than just run-scoring or wicket-taking ability, but bigger than life characters, people who helped change the game in their nations and globally. Just like Warne today is considered a champ because he reignited interest in cricket and leg-spin, so in the same way many of these names did likewise.
The idea then is that from this list, which is an attempt at a most definitive list of the all-time greats of the game, Big Footy posters can nominate a top 20 greatest in their opinion or even an all-time XI from this list and post it for all to view.
The way I've done the categorizing is that under 'Batsman' for instance, I've listed all the very best players from each nation in their history. So there'll be some names there that people will think, "what the hell is Ian Chappell doing in the 'batsman' list alongside Lara, Bradman, etc". It's not to be taken that way. The categories just split them up, but within each is just listed the all-time greats of each nation.
You can also add to the list, if you remember someone I've forgotten to add.
ALL-TIME CRICKET GREATS
All-Rounders
Maurice Tate (ENG)
Frank Woolley (ENG)
Bill Lockwood (ENG)
Bobby Peel (ENG)
Wilfred Rhodes (ENG)
Bill Edrich (ENG)
Tony Greig (ENG)
Ian Botham (ENG)
-----------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Monty Noble (AUS)
George Giffen (AUS)
Keith Miller (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
--------------------
Imran Khan (PAK)
-------------------
Richard Hadlee (NZ)
Chris Cairns (NZ)
-------------------
Chaminda Vaas (SL)
-------------------
Aubrey Faulkner (SAF)
Charlie Llewellyn (SAF)
Trevor Goddard (SAF)
Mike Proctor (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
Jacques Kallis (SAF)
-------------------
Amar Singh (IND)
Vinoo Mankad (IND)
Chandu Borde (IND)
Bapu Nadkarni (IND)
Kapil Dev (IND)
-------------------
Learie Constantine (WI)
Garry Sobers (WI)
-------------------
Spinners
Hedley Verity (ENG)
Charlie Parker (ENG)
Alfred Freeman (ENG)
John Briggs (ENG)
Bobby Peel (ENG)
Colin Blythe (ENG)
Wilfred Rhodes (ENG)
John Wardle (ENG)
Willie Bates (ENG)
Jim Laker (ENG)
Tony Lock (ENG)
Derek Underwood (ENG)
----------------------
Herbert Hordern (AUS)
Hugh Trumble (AUS)
Clarrie Grimmett (AUS)
Bill O'Reilly (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
Shane Warne (AUS)
----------------------
Adam Vettori (NZ)
----------------------
Abdul Qadir (PAK)
---------------------
Muttiah Muralitharan (SL)
---------------------
Hugh Tayfield (SAF)
Bert Vogler (SAF)
--------------------
Bapu Nadkarni (IND)
Bhagwat Chandresekhar (IND)
Subhash Gupte (IND)
Ghulam Ahmed (IND)
Erapalli Prasanna (IND)
Dilip Doshi (IND)
Bishan Bedi (IND)
Anil Kumble (IND)
----------------------
Sonny Ramadhin (WI)
Lance Gibbs (WI)
---------------------
Pace Bowlers
John Jackson (ENG)
George Freeman (ENG)
Bill Lockwood (ENG)
George Lohmann (ENG)
Tom Richardson (ENG)
Bill Bowes (ENG)
Jack Hearne (ENG)
Syd Barnes (ENG)
Maurice Tate (ENG)
Alec Bedser (ENG)
Harold Larwood (ENG)
Bill Voce (ENG)
Brian Statham (ENG)
Frank Tyson (ENG)
Fred Trueman (ENG)
John Snow (ENG)
Bob Willis (ENG)
Ian Botham (ENG)
--------------------
Fred Spofforth (AUS)
Charlie Turner (AUS)
John Ferris (AUS)
Ernie Jones (AUS)
Keith Miller (AUS)
Bill Johnston (AUS)
Ray Lindwall (AUS)
Alan Davidson (AUS)
Graham McKenzie (AUS)
Dennis Lillee (AUS)
Jeff Thomson (AUS)
Ernie Toshack (AUS)
Terry Alderman (AUS)
Bruce Reid (AUS)
Craig McDermott (AUS)
Glenn McGrath (AUS)
----------------------
Richard Hadlee (NZ)
---------------------
Fazal Mahmood (PAK)
Waqar Younis (PAK)
Wasim Akram (PAK)
---------------------
Chaminda Vaas (SL)
---------------------
Neil Adcock (SAF)
Peter Pollock (SAF)
Mike Proctor (SAF)
Garth le Roux (SAF)
Allan Donald (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
---------------------
Amar Singh (IND)
Kapil Dev (IND)
Javagal Srinath (IND)
---------------------
Charlie Griffith (WI)
Wes Hall (WI)
Andy Roberts (WI)
Michael Holding (WI)
Joel Garner (WI)
Malcolm Marshall (WI)
Ian Bishop (WI)
Curtly Ambrose (WI)
Courtney Walsh (WI)
-----------------------
Wicket Keepers
Les Ames (ENG)
Godfrey Evans (ENG)
Bob Taylor (ENG)
Alan Knott (ENG)
-------------------
Don Tallon (AUS)
Bert Oldfield (AUS)
Wally Grout (AUS)
Rodney Marsh (AUS)
Ian Healy (AUS)
Adam Gilcrhist (AUS)
---------------------
KC Sangakkara (SL)
--------------------
Ken Wadsworth (NZ)
Ian Smith (NZ)
------------------
Andy Flower (ZIM)
-------------------
Wasim Bari (PAK)
Moin Khan (PAK)
---------------------
Denis Lindsay (SAF)
John Waite (SAF)
Dave Richardson (SAF)
Mark Boucher (SAF)
---------------------
Farokh Engineer (IND)
Syed Kirmani (IND)
--------------------
Deryk Murray (WI)
Jeff Dujon (WI)
------------------
Batsman
Kumar Ranjitsinhji (ENG)
WG Grace (ENG)
Les Ames (ENG)
Phil Mead (ENG)
Maurice Leyland (ENG)
Frank Woolley (ENG)
Patsy Hendren (ENG)
Eddie Paynter (ENG)
Ernest Tyldesley (ENG)
Joe Hardstaff (ENG)
Cyril Washbrook (ENG)
Tom Graveney (ENG)
Herbert Sutcliffe (ENG)
Jack Hobbs (ENG)
Len Hutton (ENG)
Walter Hammond (ENG)
Peter May (ENG)
Denis Compton (ENG)
Dennis Amiss (ENG)
Ken Barrington (ENG)
Colin Cowdrey (ENG)
John Edrich (ENG)
Ted Dexter (ENG)
Geoff Boycott (ENG)
Graham Gooch (ENG)
David Gower (ENG)
------------------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Warren Bardsley (AUS)
Charles Macartney (AUS)
Victor Trumper (AUS)
Clem Hill (AUS)
Bill Brown (AUS)
Bob Cowper (AUS)
Colin McDonald (AUS)
Lindsey Hassett (AUS)
Sid Barnes (AUS)
Bill Ponsford (AUS)
Bill Woodfull (AUS)
Donald Bradman (AUS)
Stan McCabe (AUS)
Norm O'Neill (AUS)
Neil Harvey (AUS)
Bob Simpson (AUS)
Bill Lawry (AUS)
Arthur Morris (AUS)
Ian Redpath (AUS)
Ian Chappell (AUS)
Doug Walters (AUS)
Greg Chappell (AUS)
Alan Border (AUS)
Dean Jones (AUS)
David Boon (AUS)
Steve Waugh (AUS)
Mark Waugh (AUS)
Mark Taylor (AUS)
Michael Slater (AUS)
Matt Hayden (AUS)
Justin Langer (AUS)
Adam Gilchrist (AUS)
Ricky Ponting (AUS)
---------------------
Conrad Hunte (WI)
Basil Butcher (WI)
Clive Walcott (WI)
Everton Weekes (WI)
Frank Worrell (WI)
George Headley (WI)
Seymour Nurse (WI)
Rohan Kanhai (WI)
Garry Sobers (WI)
Alvin Kallicharran (WI)
Roy Fredericks (WI)
Clive Lloyd (WI)
Gordon Greenidge (WI)
Desmond Haynes (WI)
Richie Richardson (WI)
Viv Richards (WI)
Brian Lara (WI)
----------------------
Jackie McGlew (SAF)
Herbie Taylor (SAF)
Eric Rowan (SAF)
Dudley Nourse (SAF)
Bruce Mitchell (SAF)
Colin Bland (SAF)
Clive Rice (SAF)
Eddie Barlow (SAF)
Graeme Pollock (SAF)
Barry Richards (SAF)
Garry Kirsten (SAF)
Jacques Kallis (SAF)
----------------------
Dave Houghton (ZIM)
Andy Flower (ZIM)
---------------------
Aravinda de Silva (SL)
Sanath Jayasuriya (SL)
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)
KC Sangakkara (SL)
----------------------
John Reid (NZ)
Glenn Turner (NZ)
Martin Crowe (NZ)
----------------------
Hanif Mohammad (PAK)
Zaheer Abbas (PAK)
Javed Miandad (PAK)
Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK)
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)
------------------------
Nawab of Pataudi (IND)
Vijay Hazare (IND)
Polly Umrigar (IND)
Gundappa Viswanath (IND)
Sunil Gavaskar (IND)
Dilip Vengsarker (IND)
Mohammad Azharuddin (IND)
Ravi Shastri (IND)
Sachin Tendulkar (IND)
Rahul Dravid (IND)
-------------------------
Captains
WG Grace (ENG)
Douglas Jardine (ENG)
Colin Cowdrey (ENG)
Len Hutton (ENG)
Percy Chapman (ENG)
Peter May (ENG)
Ray Illingworth (ENG)
Mike Brearley (ENG)
---------------------
Warwick Armstrong (AUS)
Lindsey Hassett (AUS)
Bill Woodfull (AUS)
Joe Darling (AUS)
Monty Noble (AUS)
Donald Bradman (AUS)
Richie Benaud (AUS)
Bob Simpson (AUS)
Ian Chappell (AUS)
Greg Chappell (AUS)
Alan Border (AUS)
Mark Taylor (AUS)
Steve Waugh (AUS)
---------------------
Javed Miandad (PAK)
Imran Khan (PAK)
--------------------
Hansie Cronje (SAF)
Shaun Pollock (SAF)
--------------------
Geoff Howarth (NZ)
---------------------
Arjuna Ranatunga (SL)
---------------------
Nawab of Pataudi (IND)
Sunil Gavaskar (IND)
----------------------
Frank Worrell (WI)
John Goddard (WI)
Gary Sobers (WI)
Clive Lloyd (WI)
---------------------
What no Marto, if Slater and Langer are in, Marto must be in. Marto killed them in the sub continent against Murali and his efforts in ODI's were massive!!
I like Chappelli as a captain but Marto is a better batter, compare the averages!
For starters I don't understand the point of naming 300 players.
Furthermore it's all well and good to rate test Cricket the pinnacle of the sport, which it is.
But to completely discredit One dayers shows your ignorance and illustrates why your Cricket knowledge isn't respected.
You continue to believe not-outs boost averages, they don't.
You need to have a long hard think about it, one day (hopefully) the penny will drop.
From that extensive list, refining it down to the better (most glorified, reputed, or gifted) players from each nation, from every era....(comes out to be top 160 cricketers, captains is an exclusive category).
If you notice, the majority of the all-time greats for England were in the earlier years, when they had a process-line of elite talent, had the best first class league in the world (like the VFL considered stronger, therefore better), and all those greats of that era would be on par or better with the greats of modern Australian dominance (where a good portion of the best ever for Australia emerged from).
Zimbabwe: Andy Flower.
Sri Lanka: Muttiah Muralitharan, Aravinda de Silva, Chaminda Vaas.
New Zealand: Richard Hadlee, Glenn Turner, Martin Crowe.
Pakistan: Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Hanif Mohammad, Abdul Qadir, Wasim Bari.
South Africa: Graeme Pollock, Mike Proctor, Barry Richards, Mark Boucher, Peter Pollock, Eddie Barlow, Garth le Roux, Shaun Pollock, Bruce Mitchell, Dudley Nourse, Allan Donald, Jacques Kallis.
India: Sunil Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, Sachin Tendulkar, Nawab of Pataudi, Bishan Bedi, Erapalli Prasanna, Rahul Dravid, Mohammad Azharuddin, Vijay Hazare, Polly Umrigar, Dilip Vengsarkar, Anil Kumble, Syed Kirmani, Amar Singh, Subhash Gupte, Bapu Nadkarni, Vinoo Mankad.
West Indies: Gary Sobers, Viv Richards, Brian Lara, Clive Lloyd, Curtly Ambrose, Malcolm Marshall, Andy Roberts, Joel Garner, Michael Holding, Courtney Walsh, Jeff Dujon, George Headley, Frank Worrell, Conrad Hunte, Everton Weekes, Clive Walcott, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Richie Richardson, Rohan Kanhai, Wes Hall, Lance Gibbs.
England: Walter Hammond, Len Hutton, Sydney Barnes, David Gower, Godfrey Evans, Alan Knott, Ian Botham, Ken Barrington, Herbert Sutcliffe, Jack Hobbs, Denis Compton, Colin Cowdrey, Peter May, Fred Trueman, Graham Gooch, Geoff Boycott, Kumar Ranjitsinhji, Les Ames, Derek Underwood, Maurice Leyland, Joe Hardstaff, Patsy Hendren, Eddie Paynter, Phil Mead, Frank Woolley, WG Grace, Bill Lockwood, Tom Richardson, George Lohmann, Hedley Verity, Maurice Tate, WG Grace, John Snow, Harold Larwood, Frank Tyson, Colin Blythe, Johnny Wardle, Willie Bates, Alec Bedser, Jack Hearne, Wilfred Rhodes, Bill Bowes, Alfred Freeman, Charlie Parker, Brian Statham, Bob Willis, Bobby Peel, Johhny Briggs, Jim Laker, Tony Lock.
Australia: Don Bradman, Charlie Turner, Herbert Hordern, Victor Trumper, Keith Miller, Neil Harvey, Bill Ponsford, Clarrie Grimmett, Richie Benaud, Bill O'Reilly, Don Tallon, Rod Marsh, Ian Healy, Ricky Ponting, Adam Gilchrist, Greg Chappell, Alan Border, Matthew Hayden, Doug Walters, Steve Waugh, Glenn McGrath, Shane Warne, Dennis Lillee, Alan Davidson, Ray Lindwall, Bill Johnston, John Ferris, Fred Spofforth, Bill Brown, Monty Noble, Hugh Trumble, Arthur Morris, Bob Cowper, Charles Macartney, Lindsay Hassett, Warren Bardsley, Ernie Jones, Warwick Armstrong, Clem Hill, Stan McCabe, Bill Woodfull, David Boon, Ian Chappell, Justin Langer, Mark Waugh, Michael Slater, Dean Jones, Mark Taylor, Bob Simpson, Craig McDermott, Graham McKenzie, Damien Martyn, Jason Gillespie, Jeff Thomson, Bruce Reid.
Captains: Warwick Armstrong, Mike Brearley, Don Bradman, Clive Lloyd, Peter May, Frank Worrell, Monty Noble, Joe Darling, Ian Chappell, Richie Benaud, Imran Khan, Geoff Howarth, Nawab of Pataudi, Steve Waugh, Bob Simpson, Ray Illingworth, Douglas Jardine.
For starters I don't understand the point of naming 300 players.
Furthermore it's all well and good to rate test Cricket the pinnacle of the sport, which it is.
But to completely discredit One dayers shows your ignorance and illustrates why your Cricket knowledge isn't respected.
You continue to believe not-outs boost averages, they don't.
You need to have a long hard think about it, one day (hopefully) the penny will drop.
You're so critical about everyone all the time, it seems, reading your other thread too, which I liked, yet you don't seem to take the criticism back...especially when warranted.
You raise a good question - why aren't ODI's considered. Forget the personal attack afterwards. Well, the only reason really is that Test Cricket is the elite form of the game. Beyond that, First Class and therefore Test Cricket is the basis of the game, the long-form of the game, the only constant thing over hundreds of years of Cricket. Therefore, the only way to truly compare players from all eras, if you're going to do it properly/fairly, is to set the litmus test on First Class/Test Cricket.
ODI's are such a separate entity, and only really a standard of the last 30 years, that it's probably better to make a separate "all-time greatest ODI players" or "Top 20 greatest ODI players" thread. Which would be cool to read and contribute to.
To be considered an elite Cricketer in modern times you would have to excel at both forms of the game.
Players from the era before One Day Cricket was created obviously weren't able to play the game. You can't take that away from players who have played 200+ ODI's and have excellent records.
Reality is, some of the best and most entertaining skilful Cricket is in the limited overs form.
To be considered an elite Cricketer in modern times you would have to excel at both forms of the game.
Players from the era before One Day Cricket was created obviously weren't able to play the game. You can't take that away from players who have played 200+ ODI's and have excellent records.
Reality is, some of the best and most entertaining skilful Cricket is in the limited overs form.
I agree with you, you know. But if you notice, probably all of the best Test/First Class Aussie cricketers of all time, for instance, which have been included in this extensive list, also would make the all-time ODI list. If you're a great cricketer in the long form of the game, you'll likely be a great cricketer in the short form of the game. But it doesn't always work out the reverse way.
So it's not like anyone has been left out from this list who would make the ODI list. As in, you can almost not bother trying to incorporate cricketer's ODI stats etc when making an all-time list because they'll be on it anyway when it comes to all-time Test/1st-Class list.
Your first post starts off with "only test Cricketers..." but the title is "All time greatest Cricketers".
Which means your not paying any credit to one-day records.
In that case it should really be titled 'My all-time greatest Test Cricketers'.
Are you going to narrow the list down?
Your first post starts off with "only test Cricketers..." but the title is "All time greatest Cricketers".
Which means your not paying any credit to one-day records.
In that case it should really be titled 'My all-time greatest Test Cricketers'.
Are you going to narrow the list down?
Like I said before...put differently.
To make it in the ODI arena, just representation, more than likely you'd have had to perform in First Class/Test Cricket. More than likely, to be considered a great of ODIs, you'd probably be also one of the best cricketers in all forms of the game (ODIs, Tests, First Class).
So in many ways, there's not very many pure ODI geniuses out there who are being left out of the all-time Test/First Class list (this thread). Perhaps you could name a few for me I may have left out?
Vaas? He made it in the original list. But would struggle to make it into the top 100 of all time players. Dean Jones? He's in there. Gilchrist? He's in there. Wasim Akram? He's in there. Geoff Marsh? Hmmm. Well he is one of the best ODI players, but his Test and First Class standard ends up below all the very best Aussie batsman in ALL forms of the game. How about Michael Bevan? Well, he would make the best ODI list, but he hasn't performed enough across ALL forms of the game to make the all-time list.
There'd be a few players left out, like Bevan and G.Marsh, but all in all, they wouldn't make this list, and would probably be better in a "Greatest ODI only players" list....if you wanted to share your knowledge and contribute another thread?
Also, I refined the original list to a top 150-ish list, STILL broken down into nation by nation. See post #9
The next list, should be refined even more, just the absolute cream. But before I do my own opinions, I'd like people to list their own. So, the first and second list were done to make a most extensive possible list, not ignoring any worthy player out from the history of cricket. So, if anyone wants to post their top 20 or top 10 list, they could probably work off the REFINED list, as that's where ALL possible candidates for top 10 or top 20 will come from.
Pace bowlers: Jason Gillespie is the name that immediately springs to mind.
I thought this too, especially as Craig McDermott made the list.
For me McDermott was a big blustery fast bowler who kep coming in, was aggresive & fairly quick but he wasn't quite A list.
Gillespie on the other hand in his peak had it all, in England in 2001 he was the quickest bowler of the series getting up to 96mph, he was swinging the ball & was just allround a class act.
This list is iinteresting, I guess the idea is to provoke some thought & for people to maybe learn a bit about some of these players.
I don't really know too much about players from before the 1920s but I've heard the names so it was pretty interesting to read the link concerning Sydney Barnes.His stats are unreal, I always thought it was more of a bowlers' game then & so discounted the players when it came to alltime sides.Now I think it's still impossible to compare players from that era with players today but Sydney Barnes is clearly one of the greats.
Like I said before...put differently.
To make it in the ODI arena, just representation, more than likely you'd have had to perform in First Class/Test Cricket. More than likely, to be considered a great of ODIs, you'd probably be also one of the best cricketers in all forms of the game (ODIs, Tests, First Class).
So in many ways, there's not very many pure ODI geniuses out there who are being left out of the all-time Test/First Class list (this thread). Perhaps you could name a few for me I may have left out?
Vaas? He made it in the original list. But would struggle to make it into the top 100 of all time players. Dean Jones? He's in there. Gilchrist? He's in there. Wasim Akram? He's in there. Geoff Marsh? Hmmm. Well he is one of the best ODI players, but his Test and First Class standard ends up below all the very best Aussie batsman in ALL forms of the game. How about Michael Bevan? Well, he would make the best ODI list, but he hasn't performed enough across ALL forms of the game to make the all-time list.
There'd be a few players left out, like Bevan and G.Marsh, but all in all, they wouldn't make this list, and would probably be better in a "Greatest ODI only players" list....if you wanted to share your knowledge and contribute another thread?
Also, I refined the original list to a top 150-ish list, STILL broken down into nation by nation. See post #9
The next list, should be refined even more, just the absolute cream. But before I do my own opinions, I'd like people to list their own. So, the first and second list were done to make a most extensive possible list, not ignoring any worthy player out from the history of cricket. So, if anyone wants to post their top 20 or top 10 list, they could probably work off the REFINED list, as that's where ALL possible candidates for top 10 or top 20 will come from.
I understand the best test players of modern times would also feature in the best ODI players of all time, however you were implying to overlook all One Day records completely.
I think you’ll find the second biggest series Australia and England play in is the World Cup and the no.1 series for every other nation is the World Cup.
I was just reading an article from Alan Donald and watching the 1st test and they both said the test series against Pakistan is an ideal lead up to the World Cup and it’s important to keep players fresh for it… (ie; priorities…)
Apart from the Ashes, I’m pretty sure most international Cricketers would rather win a World cup than a test series.
By overlooking ODI’s you’re overlooking 50%+ of nearly all international players careers for the last 30 years.
I thought this too, especially as Craig McDermott made the list.
For me McDermott was a big blustery fast bowler who kep coming in, was aggresive & fairly quick but he wasn't quite A list.
Gillespie on the other hand in his peak had it all, in England in 2001 he was the quickest bowler of the series getting up to 96mph, he was swinging the ball & was just allround a class act.
This list is iinteresting, I guess the idea is to provoke some thought & for people to maybe learn a bit about some of these players.
I don't really know too much about players from before the 1920s but I've heard the names so it was pretty interesting to read the link concerning Sydney Barnes.His stats are unreal, I always thought it was more of a bowlers' game then & so discounted the players when it came to alltime sides.Now I think it's still impossible to compare players from that era with players today but Sydney Barnes is clearly one of the greats.
Jason Gillespie probably deserves to be put in. I'll update to include him in. I don't think Merv could make the short-listed list tho.
Another name I'm having trouble with is Bruce Reid. By all accounts and stats and footage I've seen, he was real gifted and could've been a 300 wicket taker if he didnt break down. But because he still did, does he deserve a spot in the short-list?
And what about Thomson? If Gillespie and McKenzie (just on 200 wickets) get in, then Thommo should too?
What I'll do is add them all in until there's a wave of complaint.
I understand the best test players of modern times would also feature in the best ODI players of all time, however you were implying to overlook all One Day records completely.
I think you’ll find the second biggest series Australia and England play in is the World Cup and the no.1 series for every other nation is the World Cup.
I was just reading an article from Alan Donald and watching the 1st test and they both said the test series against Pakistan is an ideal lead up to the World Cup and it’s important to keep players fresh for it… (ie; priorities…)
Apart from the Ashes, I’m pretty sure most international Cricketers would rather win a World cup than a test series.
By overlooking ODI’s you’re overlooking 50%+ of nearly all international players careers for the last 30 years.
Well, in the title and foundation I've overlooked ODI's. But essentially, I haven't overlooked any modern cricketer who excelled in BOTH the long-game and the short-game.
I cannot justify putting Michael Bevan or Geoff Marsh into the original 300-odd list. Neither would make it into the 160-odd list anyway. Are there any names (aussie or international) you feel deserves more consideration?
Well, in the title and foundation I've overlooked ODI's. But essentially, I haven't overlooked any modern cricketer who excelled in BOTH the long-game and the short-game.
I cannot justify putting Michael Bevan or Geoff Marsh into the original 300-odd list. Neither would make it into the 160-odd list anyway. Are there any names (aussie or international) you feel deserves more consideration?
It’s not about the one player, Michael Bevan. Who, for what it’s worth, was a phenomenal one day batsmen, the best ever, and deserves due credit for that.
It’s the fact you’re overlooking all one day records and stats in your criteria, which is laughable.
It’s not about the one player, Michael Bevan. Who, for what it’s worth, was a phenomenal one day batsmen, the best ever, and deserves due credit for that.
It’s the fact you’re overlooking all one day records and stats in your criteria, which is laughable.
The ODI stats are not overlooked at all. But, stats in general (whether odi or test) are not the criteria on its own. Many other factors are also used. Read first post and post 9 to see what they are.
I think what you're misinterpreting is the very first line. What I meant was....when comparing modern players with bygone players, you can't use ODI stats to discredit the bygone players, as they didn't have ODIs then. The only constant, however, thru the century, is the long-game. So that is the best way to compare.
Gilchrist, for example, has his incredible test, first class, and ODI perfomances all included in his resume in his inclusion into the list.
Bevan, for instance, has his great ODI perfomances, but his first class and test performances are not good enough. So overall, his 'rating' would not get him in the list of greatest australian cricketers.
I cannot think of any other player who has so overwhelmingly performed at an elite level in ODI, but failed in tests.
Is it just Bevan? Can you think of anyone else?
I cannot think of any other player who has so overwhelmingly performed at an elite level in ODI, but failed in tests.
Is it just Bevan? Can you think of anyone else?
What are Tom Moody's Test figures like?
Chris Harris & his mate.:D
What are Tom Moody's Test figures like?
Chris Harris & his mate.:D
Moody:
8 tests, 14 inns, 0 not outs, 456 runs, 106 highest, 32.57 ave, 46.43 s/r, 2 hundreds, 3 fifties.
Moody:
300 1st-class, 501 inns, 47 no's, 21,001 runs, 272 highest, 46.25 ave, 64 hundreds, 94 fifties.
But his ODI stats are not actually that good.
Bevan, for instance, has his great ODI perfomances, but his first class and test performances are not good enough. So overall, his 'rating' would not get him in the list of greatest australian cricketers.
I cannot think of any other player who has so overwhelmingly performed at an elite level in ODI, but failed in tests.
Is it just Bevan? Can you think of anyone else?
How do you figure that?
Bevan's first class record is brilliant, 237 matches for an average of 57.7
It's not about who did or who didn't perform at one or the other, it's about paying due credit to ODI records.
How do you figure that?
Bevan's first class record is brilliant, 237 matches for an average of 57.7
It's not about who did or who didn't perform at one or the other, it's about paying due credit to ODI records.
Fair enough. Like I said....so give me a list of the players who have a brilliant first class (at least) record AND brilliant ODI record. Then I will add them into the original list.
Don Draper
11 Jan 2007, 21:18
I am still amused by your ignorance starz. You are still struggling to recognise pre-1970 players due to the fact that they didnt play ODI. Get your hand off it.
The only way to compare the greatest cricketers is to compare them on their test match cricket and to some extent their first class career. It ihas been their since cricket begun and it is the only way to compare fairly.
If you want to bring in ODI cricket then you need to make a new list titled "Greatest Players of the last 30 years". Then you can compare all those players on equal terms, simple as that.
Good work g.g, you have brought up a good list/
-Mav
Fair enough. Like I said....so give me a list of the players who have a brilliant first class (at least) record AND brilliant ODI record. Then I will add them into the original list.
To be honest, i can't really be bothered going through the records and finding a discrepancy or two.
The list is ok, i mean it covers just about everyone.. but what exactly were you going to do with it?
Chris Harris:
23 tests, 42 inns, 4 no's, 777 runs, 71 highest, 20.44 ave, 33.70 s/r, 0 hundreds, 5 fifties.
Chris Harris:
123 1st-class, 192 inns, 40 no's, 7071 runs, 251* highest, 46.51 ave, 14 hundreds, 40 fifties.
Chris Harris:
250 odi's, 213 inns, 62 no's, 4379 runs, 130 highest, 29.00 ave, 66.51 s/r, 1 hundred, 16 fifties.
10667 balls, 7613 runs, 203 wckts, 5/42 best, 37.50 ave, 4.28 econ, 52.54 s/r, 2 fourers, 1 fiver.
ODI would be in NZ's all-time ODI list. But would not make it in a global all-time cricketers list.
To be honest, i can't really be bothered going through the records and finding a discrepancy or two.
The list is ok, i mean it covers just about everyone.. but what exactly were you going to do with it?
1. To create a most extensive all-time list, including all the best every nation has ever produced.
2. That people would research and read up on the greats of the past, which too often get overlooked or fobbed off as unimportant or inferior. So people can maybe appreciate more these old-time greats.
3. To whittle the list down to top 150 (i got to about 160).
4. To then try to whittle that down to just the cream of the crop. A top 50 perhaps. With no nation by nation break drown. Just a category break down. As in, best keepers ever, best allrounders ever, etc.
5. This would be done by allowing all posters to contribute to the process. So to help them do that, is why there's that first extensive list and the second refined list. There would be no major name missing there. So they didn't have to try looking, the names are there. Perhaps also I help them jog their memory because they forgot the name of a player or people forgot how great some players were - like Glenn Turner, for instance.
I am still amused by your ignorance starz. You are still struggling to recognise pre-1970 players due to the fact that they didnt play ODI. Get your hand off it.
The only way to compare the greatest cricketers is to compare them on their test match cricket and to some extent their first class career. It ihas been their since cricket begun and it is the only way to compare fairly.
If you want to bring in ODI cricket then you need to make a new list titled "Greatest Players of the last 30 years". Then you can compare all those players on equal terms, simple as that.
Good work g.g, you have brought up a good list/
-Mav
Thanks. It took a lot of work to compile.
Don Draper
11 Jan 2007, 21:58
For the Captains posistion for me it would be out of Clive Lloyd and Warick Armstrong.
If you want to continue to cut it down so you get to the top say 100 I would get rid of the following names: Vaas, Martyn, Gillespie, Thomson to name a few.
For the Captains posistion for me it would be out of Clive Lloyd and Warick Armstrong.
If you want to continue to cut it down so you get to the top say 100 I would get rid of the following names: Vaas, Martyn, Gillespie, Thomson to name a few.
Those names, and many others like them, would not be cream of the crop top 50 material. So I would have to eliminate them.
Perhaps I can put an * beside every name listed in post 9 that would be a candidate for being included??
Contributions required...
Here's a list broken down purely on position played.
Wicket Keeper: Wasim Bari, Syed Kirmani, Jeff Dujon, Mark Boucher, Denis Lindsay, Godfrey Evans, Allan Knot, Les Ames, Don Tallon, Wally Grout, Rod Marsh, Ian Healy, Adam Gilchrist.
All-Rounder: Kapil Dev, Imran Khan, Vinoo Mankad, Richard Hadlee, Mike Proctor, Shaun Pollock, Jacques Kallis, Gary Sobers, WG Grace, Ian Botham, Frank Woolley, Maurice Tate, Warwick Armstrong, Monty Noble, Keith Miller, Richie Benaud.
Spinners: Muttiah Muralitharan, Abdul Qadir, Bishan Bedi, Anil Kumble, Subhash Gupte, Erapalli Prasanna, Bapu Nadkarni, Lance Gibbs, Derek Underwood, Hedley Verity, Colin Blythe, Wilfred Rhodes, Bobby Peel, Johhny Briggs, Johnny Wardle, Jim Laker, Tony Lock, Alfred Freeman, Hugh Trumble, Herbert Hordern, Charlie Parker, Clarrie Grimmett, Bill O'Reilly, Richie Benaud, Shane Warne.
Pace: Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev, Amar Singh, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Peter Pollock, Shaun Pollock, Allan Donald, Garth le Roux, Curtly Ambrose, Malcolm Marshall, Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Wes Hall, Sydney Barnes, Fred Trueman, Alec Bedser, George Lohmann, Frank Tyson, Maurice Tate, Bill Lockwood, Tom Richardson, John Snow, Harold Larwood, Jack Hearne, Bill Bowes, Brian Statham, Bob Willis, Ian Botham, Glenn McGrath, Dennis Lillee, Alan Davidson, Ray Lindwall, Charlie Turner, John Ferris, Fred Spofforth, Bill Johnston, Ernie Jones, Monty Noble, Keith Miller, Graham McKenzie, Bruce Reid, Jason Gillespie.
Batters: Glenn Turner, Martin Crowe, Hanif Mohammad, Javed Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards, Eddie Barlow, Bruce Mitchell, Dudley Nourse, Gary Kirtsten, Jacques Kallis, Sunil Gavaskar, Sachin Tendulkar, Mohammad Azharuddin, Polly Umrigar, Vijay Hazare, Gary Sobers, Viv Richards, Brian Lara, Gordon Greenidge, George Headley, Everton Weekes, Clive Walcott, Frank Worrell, Rohan Kanhai, Conrad Hunte, Clive Lloyd, Richie Richardson, WG Grace, Walter Hammond, Len Hutton, Ken Barrington, Jack Hobbs, Eddie Paynter, Denis Compton, Herbert Sutcliffe, Colin Cowdrey, Peter May, Graham Gooch, David Gower, Kumar Ranjitsinhji, Geoff Boycott, Patsy Hendren, Joe Hardstaff, Phil Mead, Maurice Leyland, Don Bradman, Victor Trumper, Neil Harvey, Bill Ponsford, Ricky Ponting, Adam Gilchrist, Greg Chappell, Alan Border, Matthew Hayden, Doug Walters, Steve Waugh, Arthur Morris, Stan McCabe, Lindsay Hassett, Bob Cowper, Bill Woodfull, Clem Hill, Warwick Armstrong, Bill Brown, Warren Bardsley, Charles Macartney, Damien Martyn, Dean Jones, David Boon, Justin Langer, Mark Waugh, Mark Taylor, Ian Chappell, Bob Simpson.
Captain: Warwick Armstrong, Clive Lloyd, Donald Bradman, Ian Chappell, Peter May, Mike Brearley, Douglas Jardine, Alan Border, Richie Benaud, Steve Waugh, Imran Khan, Geoff Howarth, Arjuna Ranatunga.
sydney eagle
12 Jan 2007, 06:50
I don't think that it is unreasonable to suggest that Stan McCabe could fit into the "all rounder" catergory., as I think could Kapil Dev, Imran Khan and perhaps Richard Hadlee.
The Reaper
12 Jan 2007, 08:13
Warwick Armstrong has to be an all-rounder
Played 269 First Class matches to scorer 16158 runs at 46.83 and take 832 wickets at 19.71
I've had a crack at narrowing down the list - these are the players that I consider as greats. I will admit though that my pre-Bradman era knowledge is fairly scant so my list might be lacking in that regard.
Any notable omissions or unwarranted inclusions?
There are 78 players on this list so perhaps it could be culled down to a Top 50.
W/K
Adam Gilchrist
Godfrey Evans
Allan Knott
Ian Healy
Rod Marsh
(The wicketkeeper issue is tough. It is Gilchrist, then daylight, then a whole bunch of keepers stand out. I originally only included Gilchrist.)
A/R
Kapil Dev
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Shaun Pollock
Jacques Kallis
Garry Sobers
Ian Botham
Frank Woolley
Warwick Armstrong
Keith Miller
Richie Benaud
WG Grace (moved from the batsmen category)
Spinners
Muttiah Muralitharan
Anil Kumble
Lance Gibbs
Wilfred Rhodes
Jim Laker
Hugh Trumble
Clarrie Grimmett
Bill O'Reilly
Shane Warne
Pace
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Allan Donald
Curtly Ambrose
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
SF Barnes
Fred Trueman
Alec Bedser
George Lohmann
John Snow
Harold Larwood
Bob Willis
Glenn McGrath
Dennis Lillee
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Charlie Turner
Fred Spofforth
Batsmen
Javed Miandad
Graeme Pollock
Barry Richards
Sunil Gavaskar
Sachin Tendulkar
Rahul Dravid (not on the original list but has to be included - over 100 Tests and an average of 57)
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Gordon Greenidge
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Clive Walcott
George Headley
Walter Hammond
Len Hutton
Ken Barrington
Jack Hobbs
Denis Compton
Herbert Sutcliffe
Colin Cowdrey
Geoff Boycott
Don Bradman
Victor Trumper
Bill Ponsford
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Matthew Hayden
Steve Waugh
Captains
(I've only included captains who didn't qualify as a "great" in terms of their specialist skill).
Clive Lloyd
Ian Chappell
Mike Brearley
Crooked Rain
12 Jan 2007, 08:16
I think Brett Lee should be considered. No one is faster.
I don't think that it is unreasonable to suggest that Stan McCabe could fit into the "all rounder" catergory., as I think could Kapil Dev, Imran Khan and perhaps Richard Hadlee.
Dev, Khan and Hadlee are all in the all-rounder list.
Unfortunately, McCabe falls shorter statistically. But he is there as a batsman.
Warwick Armstrong has to be an all-rounder
Played 269 First Class matches to scorer 16158 runs at 46.83 and take 832 wickets at 19.71
Warwick is in the all-rounders list.
I think Brett Lee should be considered. No one is faster.
Lee statistically does not jump ahead of players like Reid, McDermott, Gillespie.
Great list POBT. Appreciate the contribution.
I'll read your list over and over because I find it very very hard trying to create a definitive top 10 or 20 list. The more you read about the greats, especially pre-war, and players you'd never assume were great, the harder it gets.
I like your move of WG to the all-rounders. Will add that in.
Keepers: Les Ames (prolific with bat too) could build a case for inclusion, but definitely Don Tallon in and Ian Healy out.
But as you said, pre-war players. Pace bowlers probably a number more (pre and post war) who could get in. Peter Pollock, Tom Richardson, Bill Lockwood, Brian Statham, a few more.
Your list is exceptional, anyway. As you know, it's really really hard to whittle such a list down. But yours is a step in right direction.
Great list POBT. Appreciate the contribution.
I'll read your list over and over because I find it very very hard trying to create a definitive top 10 or 20 list. The more you read about the greats, especially pre-war, and players you'd never assume were great, the harder it gets.
I like your move of WG to the all-rounders. Will add that in.
Also, your list is exceptional. There may be a few exclusions here and there, but as you know, it's really really hard to whittle such a list down. But yours is a step in right direction.
Keepers: Les Ames (prolific with bat too) could build a case for inclusion, but definitely Don Tallon in and Ian Healy out.
Thanks.
In terms of whittling down my list, I reckon the best place to start is with captains and wicketkeepers. I am of the opinion that captaincy doesn't elevate you sufficiently to put you in a Top 50 style of list if your specialist area is inadequate (comparatively). So I'd drop Chappell, Brearley and Lloyd.
I'd also revert to Gilly as the only keeper. There is just such a massive gap between him and the next best. So I'd drop Marsh, Healy, Evans and Knott. I've got a few others that I would cut from my list of 78 but I'll let you refine the list first.
Thanks.
In terms of whittling down my list, I reckon the best place to start is with captains and wicketkeepers. I am of the opinion that captaincy doesn't elevate you sufficiently to put you in a Top 50 style of list if your specialist area is inadequate (comparatively). So I'd drop Chappell, Brearley and Lloyd.
I'd also revert to Gilly as the only keeper. There is just such a massive gap between him and the next best. So I'd drop Marsh, Healy, Evans and Knott. I've got a few others that I would cut from my list of 78 but I'll let you refine the list first.
How about you cull your list down even further first. It would help me too, because I find it very hard to exclude.
For instance, you put Gilchrist as the only keeper, and he probably would be for his all-round ability. But Evans (most notably) largely considered the best ever specialist keeper.
So I find it hard.
Also, captain list is just there to boost a players reputation, but not sufficient grounds on its own for someone to be included. For instance, Peter May, one of the all-time great players, and captains. So his captaincy helps boost him. Whereas Howarth, a champion captain only, that was all. So wouldn't make the list. But it is interesting to note the best captains in history for the hell of it.
This is a rough 50. It was very tough to get it down from about 65.
W/K
Adam Gilchrist
A/R
Kapil Dev
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Shaun Pollock
Jacques Kallis
Garry Sobers
Ian Botham
Keith Miller
WG Grace
Spinners
Muttiah Muralitharan
Anil Kumble
Jim Laker
Hugh Trumble
Clarrie Grimmett
Shane Warne
Pace
Wasim Akram
Allan Donald
Curtly Ambrose
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
SF Barnes
Fred Trueman
George Lohmann
Harold Larwood
Glenn McGrath
Dennis Lillee
Ray Lindwall
Fred Spofforth
Batsmen
Javed Miandad
Graeme Pollock
Sunil Gavaskar
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Everton Weekes
Clive Walcott
George Headley
Walter Hammond
Len Hutton
Ken Barrington
Jack Hobbs
Denis Compton
Herbert Sutcliffe
Don Bradman
Victor Trumper
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
My justification for only having one wicketkeeper is that, compared to other great keepers, Gilchrist gives you a massive advantage. I would argue that it is the 2nd biggest advantage in the history of Test cricket (obviously Bradman is the biggest advantage). But, having said that, if you judge keepers in the historical context, their biggest contribution was always with the gloves on and that is solely how they were judged.
One of the hardest decisions I had to make was to cull Barry Richards. His Test record is too short to judge properly IMO. That is a real shame because he was a superstar. But I think you can't really justify his inclusion over guys who were undeniably proven in the toughest form of cricket.
I also think my list is too Aussie-centric. Having said that, I cut off Tiger O'Reilly who was a champion bowler. He was the last player cut from my list.
G.G. - look forward to your comments.
dan warna
12 Jan 2007, 10:20
I think Brett Lee should be considered. No one is faster.
I ROFL'D
dan warna
12 Jan 2007, 10:24
From every account tests is where most players want to achieve.
winning the ashes is more important to aussies and pommes than the world cup.
beating the aussies won them street parades and knighthoods/
symonds is a very good ODI player but his test appearances are what counts to him.
Bevan is considered amongst the great ODI players but he never stopped trying to claim a test spot.
Test cricket is the premier form of the game.
to be considered an ODI specialist allows people entry to international cricket but its the test arena that they want the accolades in.
most want it all, but if they had a choice between test cricket and ODIs they would choose test cricket unless they choice was forced on them.
only someone completely ignorant of the history and desire or cricketers would think players want ODI selection ahead of test selection.
Dude, you have balls. You got it down to like 50 :eek:
You state a very logical reason why Gilchrist as keeper, the advantage thing. He's by no means incompetent behind the stumps, tho he does lack skill with the spinners. But...you're right, Gilchrist would be the keeper in an all-time XI.
In saying that, tho, are there no keepers who would make it into the top 50 category as well? Why does there have to be only one? Just throwing that devil's advocate out there.
As for Barry Richards. I understand your reasons, and they are sound. But....I disagree because if we're judging all-time best, and many all-timers only played a handful of tests (due to war, apartheid, early years when many only played about as many as Richards) compared to how today's players can rack up 50+ tests, then it kind of unfavorably tips the scale towards modern day players. Pure first class alone shouldn't be the only thing, but in special circumstances they might have to be taken into account. Bradman rated him in his all-time XI, so he has grounds to be included in a "greatest cricketers the world has seen - not necessarily who played tests due to reasons given above". Richards plundered Australia's best in Sheffield Shield, England's best in County, etc.
All-rounders: Same with Mike Proctor in the top all-rounders. He begs inclusion. Considered to be the 6th greatest allrounder ever (at least in the modern era). I'd take Hadlee out of a/r (not as good with bat) and put him in the pace category. I'd also think about greats like Armstrong and Noble and many others. This list perhaps needs a few more names because to be a champion with bat and ball is surely a gift from the gods.
Spinners: Jim Laker wasnt as good as he is made out to be. He got hammered by the '48 Aussies. Most of his best performances were against the weaker Aussie teams before Bradman. Hedley Verity needs inclusion as he took the scalp of Bradman the most I think. Like 8 times. Derek Underwood has a claim for inclusion. I'd replace Kumble with O'Reilly anyway. Greats like Gupte or Bedi, but most likely one of the earlier greats like Rhodes, Parker, Peel, etc, might need to be fitted in. Perhaps just the very best of that early era. There were far better spinners in those days than today's era. With so many spinners around those days, for a certain glorified few to rise so highly statistically is like Bradman rising above all the great batters around in his time. Case could be made that Murali's wickets are generally in an era of mediocre batters, zimbabwe, bangers, england, nz, etc. Whereas, the very best spinners in the pre-war era had to constantly take the wickets of the very best batters. Like always Eng v Aus, and them having so many alltime great bats in that era. It would be like Murali needing to constantly bowl v the Aussies every 2nd year. I'm not sure his stats (as great as they are, truly great) are better than the very best spinners of the pre-war era. Warne, probably helped by the same thing too.
Pace: There's some work here to bring some worthier ones in. Spofforth was great but not better than Lockwood/Richardson and many others. Malcom Marshall and Curtly Ambrose are perhaps the only top 10/20 standard pace bowlers from the WI to be included. Ian Chappell always rated Andy Roberts a better paceman than Holding. Probably both left out tho. Harold Larwood is like Barry Richards...career ended quickly, many considered him the epitome of pace (the action, terror etc), but statistically as well there were better like Lockwood/Richardson, Davidson. If Larwood in then B. Richards in. The pace list is not too far off from being a thumbs up.
Batsman: This is always going to be the hardest one to cull from. I will study this list a little more compared to the previous lists first before I suggest changes perhaps. But so far, it looks fine, except the omission of B.Richards.
g.g. - just on a couple of your points:
1. Keepers. I would be happy to include more keepers. The problem is though that for a "Top 50" list, it is hard to pick 1 or 2 others and exclude a whole field of very good keepers. Judging wicketkeeping is such a difficult exercise. I mean, you discounted Healy fairly early who I rate as the best technical wicketkeeper that I have seen (better than Marsh, Dujon, Gilchrist, Russell (who was a brilliant technician). Then there is the impact of including more keepers - eg - to try and squeeze Evans in, I would have to leave out a batsman like Steve Waugh.
2. On Richards, as I said earlier, he was a superstar. But I believe that 4 Tests is just not enough to judge him by. I differentiate between Richards and G. Pollock who played 20 Tests (I think). It wouldn't worry me to see Richards go back into that list but it is a tough ask to include someone on the basis of 4 Tests and exclude someone else who might have excelled over 100 Tests. This is not to denigrate Richards in any way but, if Graham Hick had not qualified to play international cricket for England, would we be having the same debate regarding him? As I said, B. Richards in means someone else out - Miandad, S. Waugh, Border and Compton are the most likely batsmen to make way.
3. Mike Proctor - the same applies as with Barry Richards. Like Richards, I would be comfortable with his inclusion though I find it hard to leave someone out. Beefy Botham was one player who had an exceptional start to his career only for his performances to decline as he got older. FWIW, Beefy (and Kapil Dev) were close to being cut from my list. I think it would be unfair to cut Beefy for Proctor when both had exceptional starts to their careers. Hadlee is obviously in the Top 50 somewhere - it doesn't worry me if he's listed as a bowler or an all-rounder. Similarly, Kallis could shifting to the batting list (although his 200 test wickets is what gets him onto the list over other specialist batsmen IMO).
4. Ambrose and Marshall certainly stand out among WI bowlers. I had to choose between Holding and Garner for 1 bowling spot. Leaving out both is OK if there is an early era bowler who is more deserving.
5. O'Reilly can go back in. Kumble would be very unlucky. One of the reasons I included him was that it seemed a funny looking list with no Indian spinner. But O'Reilly stood out as the best bowler in a batsman-dominated era so I can see the worth of his inclusion. I think Laker deserves his spot. His career was predominantly post-Bradman and he played a pretty significant role in England's post-war rennaissance. To judge him against The Invincibles is harsh IMO - no Englishman performed with any great distinction (Len Hutton was dropped during the series). The big question mark was his away form. But an average of 21 in a batsmen dominated era is a fair effort. Incidentally, I had Rhodes in the list and would re-include him, probably as an all-rounder.
g.g. - just on a couple of your points:
1. Keepers. I would be happy to include more keepers. The problem is though that for a "Top 50" list, it is hard to pick 1 or 2 others and exclude a whole field of very good keepers. Judging wicketkeeping is such a difficult exercise. I mean, you discounted Healy fairly early who I rate as the best technical wicketkeeper that I have seen (better than Marsh, Dujon, Gilchrist, Russell (who was a brilliant technician). Then there is the impact of including more keepers - eg - to try and squeeze Evans in, I would have to leave out a batsman like Steve Waugh.
2. On Richards, as I said earlier, he was a superstar. But I believe that 4 Tests is just not enough to judge him by. I differentiate between Richards and G. Pollock who played 20 Tests (I think). It wouldn't worry me to see Richards go back into that list but it is a tough ask to include someone on the basis of 4 Tests and exclude someone else who might have excelled over 100 Tests. This is not to denigrate Richards in any way but, if Graham Hick had not qualified to play international cricket for England, would we be having the same debate regarding him? As I said, B. Richards in means someone else out - Miandad, S. Waugh, Border and Compton are the most likely batsmen to make way.
3. Mike Proctor - the same applies as with Barry Richards. Like Richards, I would be comfortable with his inclusion though I find it hard to leave someone out. Beefy Botham was one player who had an exceptional start to his career only for his performances to decline as he got older. FWIW, Beefy (and Kapil Dev) were close to being cut from my list. I think it would be unfair to cut Beefy for Proctor when both had exceptional starts to their careers. Hadlee is obviously in the Top 50 somewhere - it doesn't worry me if he's listed as a bowler or an all-rounder. Similarly, Kallis could shifting to the batting list (although his 200 test wickets is what gets him onto the list over other specialist batsmen IMO).
4. Ambrose and Marshall certainly stand out among WI bowlers. I had to choose between Holding and Garner for 1 bowling spot. Leaving out both is OK if there is an early era bowler who is more deserving.
5. O'Reilly can go back in. Kumble would be very unlucky. One of the reasons I included him was that it seemed a funny looking list with no Indian spinner. But O'Reilly stood out as the best bowler in a batsman-dominated era so I can see the worth of his inclusion. I think Laker deserves his spot. His career was predominantly post-Bradman and he played a pretty significant role in England's post-war rennaissance. To judge him against The Invincibles is harsh IMO - no Englishman performed with any great distinction (Len Hutton was dropped during the series). The big question mark was his away form. But an average of 21 in a batsmen dominated era is a fair effort. Incidentally, I had Rhodes in the list and would re-include him.
This is what I like about someone contributing, and so well, like you. You make very good counter-reasons against players I might include, and many justifications for players you've included who I might exclude.
In saying that, please fullfil your train of thought then, and carry on manipulating a top 50 in your pov. It's not wrong at all. It's very sound, what you're doing. But, do consider a little more some names. For instance, Spofforth out for somone else. Spin category seems a little tricky.
As in, Spofforth would be hard pressed to be an all-time top 50 if there were no categories, just names. Excluding him for a better player in another category might be worth considering. Someone in the spin, allrounder, or batting category. That kind of thing.
The only other thing I emphasize still tho is that an exceptional all-rounder deserves more inclusion than a really great batter or really great bowler. Players like Armstrong, Noble, etc etc...they deserve more thought.
As for batsman, this is very hard, but remember too, that in an era of bowling dominance where bowlers often averaged 10-20, therefore great batters would average 30-40. For most of the post-war era, it was like 40-50. These days, with such batter friendly rules/wickets, and far less talented bowling stock around the world, the great averages are now 50-60, and often reached. Look how many these days are in the 50+ category compared to the 70's when there were so many great bowlers. So don't discount early test players who averaged 30's.
Just food for thought, not in any way a complaint at your great logic and effort in making a top 50. It is also, after all, somewhat subjective, so purely what YOU want to put in as well, is the point. Don't let me overly dissuade you from who YOU believe were the top 50.
Don Draper
12 Jan 2007, 12:36
Good stuff POBT, only adjustment (taking a quick look) would be Barry Richards for Victor Trumper. Other then that good effort. I will have a go later on when I have more time.
I would consider Lance Gibbs as another off-spinner. First man to take 200 wickets and was one, if not the best, spinner to come out of the West Indies
-Mav
W/K (Total = 1)
Adam Gilchrist
A/R (Total = 11)
Garry Sobers
WG Grace
Keith Miller
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Wilfred Rhodes
Ian Botham
Shaun Pollock
Warwick Armstrong
Jacques Kallis
Kapil Dev
Spinners (Total = 7)
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Hugh Trumble
Clarrie Grimmett
Jim Laker
Tiger O'Reilly
Hedley Verity
Pace (Total = 10)
SF Barnes
Malcolm Marshall
Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath
George Lohmann
Curtly Ambrose
Fred Trueman
Wasim Akram
Ray Lindwall
Allan Donald
Batsmen (Total = 21)
Don Bradman
Walter Hammond
Jack Hobbs
Viv Richards
Len Hutton
Ricky Ponting
Graeme Pollock
Brian Lara
Everton Weekes
Sunil Gavaskar
Clive Walcott
George Headley
Ken Barrington
Greg Chappell
Sachin Tendulkar
Victor Trumper
Herbert Sutcliffe
Denis Compton
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
Javed Miandad
This would be my final 50 (I hope I counted correctly) completed without a huge amount of research. The proviso is my lack of real knowledge of pre-Bradman eras. I went on a couple of other sources to distinguish between players - eg Armstrong gets in ahead of Noble on the basis that he was selected first for the Australian Hall of Fame (my reasoning is that if it took the Hall of Fame 10 years since establishment to recognise Noble then that is a good enough reason as any to exclude him). My lack of knowledge may have caused some worthy players to miss out.
Ideally, I would be happy if there were only 10-15 names that could conceivably take a spot in this list because I got to about 65-70 names and started to struggle.
I've also tried to put them (roughly) in the order of preference. Eg Miandad would be the first batsman I would exclude from this list and Bradman would be the last. Even that is not an exact science though. I've got 5 places between Pollock and Headley when their records are quite similar.
I am not sure I have the mix right. There seems to be an inordinate number of batsmen - although most sides generally contained 5-6 specialist batsmen so a total of 21 on this list maybe isn't a bad reflection (but then, on that basis I should have selected 4-5 wicket keepers!). I also would have preferred to include 2-3 other pacemen but in reality Imran, Hadlee, Miller, Botham and Pollock are all new ball bowlers of the highest order.
I also excluded players that did not play for a significant period of time or who did not play a reasonable number of Tests. That ruled out B. Richards and Proctor for the reasons I stated earlier. That is a harsh call, particularly for the South Africans whose period of isolation was significantly longer than that caused by war. Whereas WW1 and WW2 were severely career inhibiting (except in a few select cases - eg Verity - where it was final), apartheid meant that some careers either never got a start or were curtailed before they could really be judged. The SA players never had a chance to play Test cricket again. In the end, it was merely a matter of drawing the line and that was an easy, if somewhat arbitrary, way to exclude a number of players. If someone produced a list with Richards in and Miandad out or Proctor in for Dev or Donald, then I wouldn't argue the point.
All in all, it is a fairly humble effort to which I am not totally wed. I will say though that I would have missed many names except for g.g.'s original and comprehensive list.
Good stuff POBT, only adjustment (taking a quick look) would be Barry Richards for Victor Trumper. Other then that good effort. I will have a go later on when I have more time.
I would consider Lance Gibbs as another off-spinner. First man to take 200 wickets and was one, if not the best, spinner to come out of the West Indies
-Mav
Thanks Mav.
Richards is an unlucky exclusion. I just can't get past the fact that he only played 4 Tests. There are plenty of other reasons to select him though.
Gibbs was in my original list of 70 odd names. I didn't see him quite in the same category as the spinners I finished up with. I have a high regard for his longevity.
POBT that is an excellent top 50. Much appreciation and applause.
The thing with a top 50 or top 20 even, is that it's very very hard to whittle the names down. There'd be about 60-100 all-time greats who COULD interchange into that top 50 or top 20 quite easily. Hence the struggle trying to find room for such things as Indian spinners or great SAF players, or more all-rounders etc.
You're a brave man POBT. But that top 50 is entirely justified and well-researched by you.
How about you try and make a top 20 or top 10 now! LOL.
TigerCraig
12 Jan 2007, 13:31
Excellent work - much better when someone who knows something about cricket (ie not starz) does it.
if starz wants to include ODI's for modern players, then for older time players you need to look at all First Class - after all in those days with maybe 5-8 tests every 2 years Shield/County teams had test class line ups.
How about you try and make a top 20 or top 10 now! LOL.
How about a Top 5? Bradman, Sobers, Barnes, Warne, Hammond.
Actually, that is probably more a list of the players I would have like to have seen play....with the exception of Warne who is the player I've enjoying watching most in the last 20 years. Still, not a bad Top 5.
Lol, top 5 even top 10 would actually be fairly easy than going from 150 down to 50. A very tough brave effort.
I probably have a slight lenience for pre-90's and pre-war players, if I make a top 50, and would probably be lenient in making room for unTest'd SAFs.
However, again, a great fckn job, POBT. You gave very good reasons why that list is a top 50.
if starz wants to include ODI's for modern players, then for older time players you need to look at all First Class - after all in those days with maybe 5-8 tests every 2 years Shield/County teams had test class line ups.
The thing is, of the modern players on my list, I don't think there is a single one that is/was not an exceptional ODI player. g.g.'s original comprehensive list contained a few modern names that did not excel in ODIs (eg Tubby, Slats, JL) but as I narrowed it down, those sort of players dropped off the list.
I did try to consider F/C form but Tests were the main driver.
I probably have a slight lenience for pre-90's and pre-war players, if I make a top 50, and would probably be lenient in making room for unTest'd SAFs.
So the Ins and Outs would be:
In:
Richards
Proctor
Noble
?
Out:
?
TigerCraig
12 Jan 2007, 14:03
The thing is, of the modern players on my list, I don't think there is a single one that is/was not an exceptional ODI player. g.g.'s original comprehensive list contained a few modern names that did not excel in ODIs (eg Tubby, Slats, JL) but as I narrowed it down, those sort of players dropped off the list.
I did try to consider F/C form but Tests were the main driver.
I'm thinking more of the pre-war guys - when a score for say SA against NSW or the Vics was worth about 10 times what a Test score against the Bangas or Zimbos is now.
I'm thinking more of the pre-war guys - when a score for say SA against NSW or the Vics was worth about 10 times what a Test score against the Bangas or Zimbos is now.
I believe that first class cricket has declined in England. I wonder though if the quality of Australian first class cricket has changed? There are certainly more professional cricketers in the modern first class game, which leads to an assumption that they are more dedicated and prepared and you would think the standard of the comp would be greater as a result. Although the rare sight of current Test players in first class cricket might have a negative influence.
As I said though, I did try and consider F/C records. Eg - The good Doctor's Test record was good but his first class record was unbelievable. Unfortunately, my knowledge of those early players is fairly limited and less so with respect to their first class records.
TigerCraig
12 Jan 2007, 14:32
The word I've got (all anecdotal) from English guys I play with is that you are right - esp. in the 2nd division. The split to divisions which was supposed to raise standards hasn't really worked.
I think the strength in Oz is only having 10 4-dayers and 10 1-dayers, so every knock counts.
So the Ins and Outs would be:
In:
Richards
Proctor
Noble
?
Out:
?
I'm not necessarily right, but MAYBE Richards for Miandad. Don't listen to me anyway. It's your list, and it's right. I probably would have a few more differences to yours if I did it my own pov.
By consensus would be good, getting each poster to do their own 50 and seeing which names are consitently there, and which names seem more interchangable.
Also, what TigerCraig is saying, I too lean towards the earlier days for the majority of the all-time greats, due in part to the decreasing common-denominator of player talent. The covered wickets. Etc. Like people would normally look at those pre-war 30.00 batting ave's and think they were bad, but it's probably like a 60 now. Also, that whole thing of the English and Australian F/C scene back in the 1800's-1940's being absolutely superior, like a Test level now.
But, again, just my take on an era few of us can comment on. I read a lot of bio's and it's always good hearing the opinions of their peers to see who more than others were absolute legends in an era full of legends. 1940's-1970's was also a golden era.
I'll have to come up with my 50 too. Need to think.
sydney eagle
17 Jan 2007, 08:31
I'm tempted to suggest Lance Gibbs for Muralitheran simply because of the controversy over Muralis action. Gibbs didn't just take a lot of wickets because he played a lot of games; he first burst into prominence when he took a hat trick against Australia, part of 5-97 in Adelaide in 1960-61. Which shows that he was a pretty fair bowler, he also took 5-66 and 3-46 in the third test in Sydney (which the West Indies won) and totalled 19 wickets in the three tests that he played in over that series.
I'm tempted to suggest Lance Gibbs for Muralitheran simply because of the controversy over Muralis action. Gibbs didn't just take a lot of wickets because he played a lot of games; he first burst into prominence when he took a hat trick against Australia, part of 5-97 in Adelaide in 1960-61. Which shows that he was a pretty fair bowler, he also took 5-66 and 3-46 in the third test in Sydney (which the West Indies won) and totalled 19 wickets in the three tests that he played in over that series.
Great points. Gibbs had to carry the Windies attack for a long time and deserves a mention. However, Gibbs' stats are probably less than the greats. An average of 29 and less than 4 wickets a Test makes it hard to rank him alongside the spinners I had selected. I probably had Kumble rated above him in my mind but that may be a little unfair on Gibbs as Kumble's record is fairly similar.
Like it or not, Murali's performances are going to be recorded without an *. On paper alone, he probably deserves to be ranked as the greatest spinner of all time. Murali will always be judged more harshly because of the controversy but, given that his action has survived the scrutiny (whether or not the scrutiny was effective....), he probably warrants his spot.
The only reason I'm not sold on Murali is not his action but the lesser overall quality of batsmen in the modern era, the predominance of games against a weak England, Windies, etc. Same with Warne in that sense. They're both going to be in the top 20, but I still think the spinners of the Bradman-era around abouts must be better due to the wealth of absolutely great batters and the constant Eng v Aus type contests. No hiding or improved stats against weaker nations. Not as often anyway. These days, you get a break of 2-4 years playing the strongest nation(s), which is really only 1 nation.