View Full Version : Center bounce clearances
Again we got smashed but a couple of things I noticed.
A couple of times we got hands the ball first yet they still got the clearance.
On other times they seemed to come through the area of dispute in numbers with a slightly delayed run.
When we won a few in the 3rd quarter Gilbee was in thier.
Our worst ones seemed to be when Aker and Eagle were in thier.
Should we start getting our half backs to run in thier more ?
Get Griffen in thier a bit more ?
Other ideas ?
firstdogonthemoon
29 Apr 2007, 18:24
Again we got smashed but a couple of things I noticed.
A couple of times we got hands the ball first yet they still got the clearance.
On other times they seemed to come through the area of dispute in numbers with a slightly delayed run.
When we won a few in the 3rd quarter Gilbee was in thier.
Our worst ones seemed to be when Aker and Eagle were in thier.
Should we start getting our half backs to run in thier more ?
Get Griffen in thier a bit more ?
Other ideas ?
Yes, I think we should all spell "thier" differently. How about "their"?
I might just stick to "there" in future.
In fairness the centre clearances are probably our greatest strength...
What won the Dogs the game was their work through the midfield and into the forward line in general play, definately one of the better rebounding sides in the league
Captain Sensible
29 Apr 2007, 18:34
I might just stick to "there" in future.
Might want to spell 'centre' correctly as well.
Griffo66
29 Apr 2007, 18:35
The reason was Minson hardly ever got hands to the bal in the bounce, wasn't hard enough and always missed or if he got it hit to the opposition. Really needs to improve so we can get more drive out of the center without having always to fight for it.
Palace03
29 Apr 2007, 18:39
It is a problem. Cooney needs to be in there as much as possible, he is very quick and smart footballer. Eagleton should never be in the centre bounce. Also Gilbee and McMahon should be rotated through there when possible.
I think our best 4 for the centre bounce should be: Minson, West, Boyd and Cooney.
Might want to spell 'centre' correctly as well.
I will stick to "middle" in future
Griffo66
29 Apr 2007, 18:53
I will stick to "middle" in future
Who cares how you spell it:rolleyes:
jazzadogs
29 Apr 2007, 19:18
I think our best 4 for the centre bounce should be: Minson, West, Boyd and Cooney.
wat about crossy? and i would have darcy in the ruck
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
29 Apr 2007, 19:23
wat about crossy? and i would have darcy in the ruck
Crossy yes... Darcy I like the structure he is bringing to our forward line. We'd be robbing peter and not necessarily paying paul if we move him into the ruck.
Maybe Mitch Hahn and Coon flying off the half back line
Borgsta
29 Apr 2007, 19:58
I can't understand why the Eagle is in there. Need to get Cross, Cooney and perhaps the Griff in there more often.
Borgsta
29 Apr 2007, 20:02
Maybe Mitch Hahn and Coon flying off the half back line
Mitch will be a very useful addition. Will probably come back after the WC game.
Remember Stanlake
29 Apr 2007, 20:09
Our centre clearance problem is reaching chronic stage.
It doesn't matter what team we play we get smashed week after week. Surely, someone at the club is working on this and after 6 months over summer fine tuning our tactics at the the centre bounce, why are we no closer to finding the answers ?
Today, we fumbled on the rare occasions we actually won the pill and turned the ball over which was very frustrating. FWIT, our 3 smalls at the centre bounce all tend to do the same thing, either they go for the ball when it is on the ground or they all hang back waiting for the feed. Is their no understanding ?..no system?...no plan ??
Until we fix this problem, we will never be any good and will not be competitive if we make the Finals as it places too much pressure on our backline...and that's another problem, our backline leaks something shocking but maybe, just maybe...the problem starts in the middle.
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
29 Apr 2007, 20:21
Our centre clearance problem is reaching chronic stage.
It doesn't matter what team we play we get smashed week after week. Surely, someone at the club is working on this and after 6 months over summer fine tuning our tactics at the the centre bounce, why are we no closer to finding the answers ?
Today, we fumbled on the rare occasions we actually won the pill and turned the ball over which was very frustrating. FWIT, our 3 smalls at the centre bounce all tend to do the same thing, either they go for the ball when it is on the ground or they all hang back waiting for the feed. Is their no understanding ?..no system?...no plan ??
Until we fix this problem, we will never be any good and will not be competitive if we make the Finals as it places too much pressure on our backline...and that's another problem, our backline leaks something shocking but maybe, just maybe...the problem starts in the middle.
I agree it is the one side of our game, more so than our perceived height deficiencies that cruel us, even against the supposed lesser lights of the comp, and see us get murdered by the top teams.
I've heard Eade suggest winning the clearances isn't important on it's own, and that we don't have to be necessarily close in this stat with our opponent to win..... I'm not convinced by this... I think it sets the tone and puts the opponent under pressure when you dominate the clearances....proviso being it is used effectively.
I would like Eade to expand on his theory concerning clearances..
Knackers
29 Apr 2007, 20:38
We are the worst club at clearances, especially in the centre. Until we resolve this problem and start winning our fair share of the clearances we will never be a premiership threat.
The problem I see is that we give a first and second effort, then either wait for a ball up decision or, or shuffle it ineffectively out.
The opposition often give third, fourth and fifth efforts and throw numbers into the contest. They don't just cough it up as easily as we seem to do. We need a real mongrel in the clinches to keep us in the contest, maybe Hahn is the answer.
A significant problem also is our ineffective rucks. We really need to try someone else in there, perhaps Skipper is worth a try as Minson and Street are just not performing to the required standard.
scottyijoe
29 Apr 2007, 20:39
Today it felt like we never won a clearance when Will was in the ruck. Just looked like he never got it down to our players effectively. I noticed we got a few with Cam in the middle though.
Still I agree that Coon and Gilbee should go in the middle a bit more. Eagleton should never be in it.
paul scholes
29 Apr 2007, 20:53
It's a massive concern which inturn puts massive pressure on our defence I thought the defence did quite a good job today.
The Coon Dog
29 Apr 2007, 21:09
Is it just me or have others noticed that all 4 of our centre players line up on the defensive side of the centre, awaiting our ruckman to get first hands to the ball & hit it back towards them?
When the tap goes the other way, the opposition are off & running.
Bulldog1954
29 Apr 2007, 21:38
It is very very poor, admittedly though Hawthorn and in particular Mitchell are strong in this area. Personally I would bring Street in for Minson. Both give you diddily squat around the ground but Streets tapwork is far superior in my opinion. It is strange that we struggle in this area, you'd think Westy and Crossy would excel at center clearances
scooter600x
29 Apr 2007, 21:49
It is very very poor, admittedly though Hawthorn and in particular Mitchell are strong in this area. Personally I would bring Street in for Minson. Both give you diddily squat around the ground but Streets tapwork is far superior in my opinion. It is strange that we struggle in this area, you'd think Westy and Crossy would excel at center clearances
I watched the tape of the Werribee game last night and paid particular attention to Street.
He had 4 marks for the game - 1 contested (and a good one it was and goaled from it). One of his uncontested marks was from filling the hole across half back, the other two were junk.
He won a huge number of hit outs but only 3 times did they go to a teammate and led to only one clearance.
Yes defiantly a major problem within our side. However I am sick and tired at hearing commentators say that our midfield is one of the best in the league. The base to much of there opinion on individual players stats.
West & Cross - Now, around the ground and one on one contests are fantstic but in terms of a centre square bounce situations they do not have the ability to get a clear possession. I think one off there main issues is that they seem to be flat footed when we get first hands on the ball. Another issue is that 85% of the time their first option is to always handpass rather than kick and get the ball forward as quickly as possible.
For all off you that bag Cooney!! Let me tell you, he is the only player in our side that has the abilty to read a ruck contest and clear the ball running at100% from the centre bounce.
As I said earlier one of our biggest problems is that most of our midfielders are FLAT FOOTED when they get there hands on the ball and never have any momentum or strength to break free and get a clear possession forward.
GIA should never ever play in the middle as his tackling and attack on the ball is second rate.
Hopefully we can sort this out as in my opinion this is a bigger problem than our so called lack of height.
Stats are so over rated, most of our midfielders average 25-35 possesions a game but are not damaging enough and tend to pick up loose possessions around the ground especially across half back. I would prefer a couple of them, no names mentioned to average less possessions but be more potent at doing what they should be doing winning contested ball out of the middle and given our forwards first use of the ball rather than relying on gilbee, griffen, harris, mcmahon to run the ball from defence.
The issue needs to be addressed urgently as we cannot keep letting other sides forwards get first use of the ball.
scooter600x
29 Apr 2007, 22:14
As I said earlier one of our biggest problems is that most of our midfielders are FLAT FOOTED when they get there hands on the ball and never have any momentum or strength to break free and get a clear possession forward.
So if our ruckman loses the tap the ball will be behind him and he would be running away from it?
Dog Town
29 Apr 2007, 22:20
Problems have more to do with our set up and the players on the outside of the traffic area rather than the guys in the actual starting 4. We had first possesion 28-26 but still got slaughtered so we are getting our hands on it first which means the ruckmen is not really the problem. I think Cross spent alot of time on the wing earlier in the year just to try and fix this problem but looks like they are trying other things now. We sometimes have no player defensive side as the person who starts behind our ruckmen usually runs forward as the ball is bounced.
One thing I have noticed regarding Center Bounces is we seem to chop and change at every bounce with the players in there. I noticed today it seemed there was a different four every time there was a bounce. That must be hampering efforts of continuity, opposition sides seem to give the same four more opportunities.
Sometimes I think we out smart ourselves instead of keeping it simpler and dont worry about the rotations as much.
What do others think?
It is very very poor, admittedly though Hawthorn and in particular Mitchell are strong in this area. Personally I would bring Street in for Minson. Both give you diddily squat around the ground but Streets tapwork is far superior in my opinion. It is strange that we struggle in this area, you'd think Westy and Crossy would excel at center clearances
mate, street is a dud. Out and out. I don't like to say it, but he doesn't hit it to our players and is a massive liability around the ground. He shouldn't be getting a gig.
The only player who could possibly come in and do something is Skipper. The guy has the leap and has bulked up a fair bit over summer, however, he doesn't seem to be able to live up to his potential with regards to his mobility.
Darcy and Minson are our best combo at the moment... by far. Just need to work on it. FWIW... we haven't drafted a ruckman for a while, so not sure Eade sees it as much of a problem.
ErnieSigley
30 Apr 2007, 00:31
Problems have more to do with our set up and the players on the outside of the traffic area rather than the guys in the actual starting 4. We had first possesion 28-26 but still got slaughtered so we are getting our hands on it first which means the ruckmen is not really the problem. I think Cross spent alot of time on the wing earlier in the year just to try and fix this problem but looks like they are trying other things now. We sometimes have no player defensive side as the person who starts behind our ruckmen usually runs forward as the ball is bounced.
This is BF, stop writing sensible stuff.
DT is it a lot to do with body size?
#1 Dogs Fan
30 Apr 2007, 01:33
we were smashed in the clearances but not on the score board.;)
kookadog
30 Apr 2007, 01:53
I'd say we'll be working on improving in the centre clearances, Hawks played well in the middle, I'm looking forward to the West Coast challenge, I'm sure Eade will be focusing on that area in particular.
and who is our "Clearances Coach"?
Problems have more to do with our set up and the players on the outside of the traffic area rather than the guys in the actual starting 4. We had first possesion 28-26 but still got slaughtered so we are getting our hands on it first which means the ruckmen is not really the problem. I think Cross spent alot of time on the wing earlier in the year just to try and fix this problem but looks like they are trying other things now. We sometimes have no player defensive side as the person who starts behind our ruckmen usually runs forward as the ball is bounced.
I agree totally a lot of the time we got first hands on the ball even on occasions second hands but then the opposition with numbers actualy got the clearance.
I have no doubt that they have one or two flying in from their half back line after the bounce if we man those two up we have two players running towards our backline after the clearance. I have noticed in particular with Gia that he on a few occasions gets the ball at the clearance and is facing towards the opposition goals so his disposal go's backwards. That indicates to me that we are just manning up at the centre bounce.
Maybe instead we could start a couple of guys on the half back side of the square instead occasionally rather than manning them up with our half forwards.
lancaster
30 Apr 2007, 11:32
The only player who could possibly come in and do something is Skipper. The guy has the leap and has bulked up a fair bit over summer, however, he doesn't seem to be able to live up to his potential with regards to his mobility.
I saw the West Coast practice game and although I don't have the stats to back me up I think we won our fair share of clearances from the centre that night and for a lot of it Skipper was rucking. He has a good leap nad can win a lot of taps. He doesn't have the bulk but I think he is a better tap ruckman than minson.
RED, WHITE & BLUE
30 Apr 2007, 13:21
Mitch will be a very useful addition. Will probably come back after the WC game.
mitch hahn is the man we need.
we have three players who get in and under and win the ball-
west
cross
boyd
and the players you want them to give it to kicking inside 50 is-
cooney
griffen
akermanis
add mitch to the mix who can win it and bomb it long and that's the rotation of players we should be using.
Definitely the weakest part of our game and has been for the best part of 2 years. If we are to make an impression deep into September this area needs to improve big time. Getting smashed out of the middle puts enormous pressure on our defenders who have enough trouble matching up on the big gorrilla's as it is.
Is it to late to bring Libba out of retirement ?
lifelike_
30 Apr 2007, 16:26
Another issue is that 85% of the time their first option is to always handpass rather than kick and get the ball forward as quickly as possible.
There's a big problem. Too many times we got first hands and gave it straight off to someone under pressure, resulting in another stoppage.
If we stuff around with it against West Coast their midfield will take us apart.
kookadog
30 Apr 2007, 17:52
The nature of the way we play is to take risks, when the pressure is on taking risks usually ends up in errors. Sometimes I'd rather us just kick it long to the forward line rather than linking up to find a player with more space. When it does pay off it's fantastic to watch but so far this season more times than not it's ended up in a turnover. We need to work out when the handball option isn't on and opt for the quick kick forward to our guys who are capable of beating their oponents.
Dog Town
30 Apr 2007, 21:35
This is BF, stop writing sensible stuff.
DT is it a lot to do with body size? Body size is an advantage but I think most of the time good centre square players just have that natural sense of where to find the ball. So its a combination of setting up right and obviously having guys who are naturally gifted in that area. They seem to pop out of the blue sometimes eg: Foley at Richmond. Cooney often starts behind our ruckmen (known as defensive side) and streams forward which looks fantastic if it comes off but if we dont win it we are vulnerable and have very little cover. Wouldn't surprise me if Eade considers this a neccesary evil if he thinks we are getting enough quality out of that type of clearance or maybe I have over analysed it but thats how we do it at my club. Keep your ruck rover defensive side to stop the opposition clearance or to sweep for a handpass if your other guys get first hands on the ball.
I also dont think we get enough impact from the guys coming outside the square. We could maybe experiment with having some of our better contest players coming off the edge of the square.
Size comes into it if it is used well but its not essential. I think we miss that dynamic sort of ingredient in our mix. A low to the ground player who hits the contest at pace rather than using positioning. Everyone wants a Judd or Kerr but we either need Cooney or Griffen to turn into this type of player (have the tools) or we need to find a player of that type. Wont get that quality but we need that bit of impact from time to time. Hahn will pinch hit and Faulkner might get a go if he performs.
The Coon Dog
1 May 2007, 08:35
Dogs must dish up middle magic (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21649642%255E19742,00.html)
Dogs must dish up middle magic
01 May 2007 Herald-Sun
Gareth Trickey
WESTERN Bulldogs defender Dale Morris says the side can not afford a repeat of Sunday's poor centre clearances when it faces West Coast at Subiaco on Saturday.
The Bulldogs had a 17-point win against Hawthorn on Sunday, despite managing eight centre clearances to the Hawks' 21. West Coast midfielder Daniel Kerr had eight clearances alone in the Eagles' 23-point victory against Richmond on Saturday.
Morris said improvements in and around the centre were needed if the Bulldogs were to avoid a repeat of last year's 74-point semi-final defeat at the hands of the Eagles at Subiaco.
"You can't afford to be down (on centre clearances) against West Coast," Morris said yesterday.
It's something that you have to be on top of because of their good midfield.
"If you're not at your best, they'll come out and they'll just walk all over you."
Morris was critical of his team's performance during the final term against Hawthorn.
He said the Bulldogs would come out "all guns blazing" on Saturday.
"We'd like to finish off the game better," Morris said.
"We didn't play our best footy, but to get away with four points is a bonus.
"We can play a lot better."
West Coast dominated the Bulldogs in last year's final.
The Bulldogs went into that game on the back of a 41-point elimination final win against Collingwood.
However the Eagles' defensive pressure kept the Dogs to 39 points, their lowest score in 2006.
Morris hoped the side could rise to the occasion and serve the Eagles their first loss of the season.
"To come off the win against Collingwood, we were pretty happy to be going through to the finals and then West Coast gave us a massive reality check," he said.
"It showed how much further we had to go to become a serious finals contender."
The Coon Dog
1 May 2007, 14:12
I just watched highlights of the weekends game & focused on centre clearences.
Here are some observations:
*Our rukmen weren't as tall, consequently we weren't able to get first hands to the ball.
*There didn't appear to be enough urgency from guys coming off the square to help in the middle.
*Unbelievably we got first posession in the centre on TEN occasions that went Hawthorns way because we coughed it up.
Clearly our ruckmen need to think of how to position their bodies to at least negate the opposing ruckmen.
Players coming in off the square need to exert greater pressure on their opponents.
Our tackles need to stick, too often the opposition were able to offload, whereas we coughed it up in similar circumstances. This was perhaps the most patently obvious area of concern for me.
Our tackling overall was poor on Sunday, we only made half the number of tackles as we did against Adelaide earlier in the season!
Putting younger guys into the centre square will obviously cause us a bit of short term pain, but I'm sure it's being done for the longer term benefit.