If not CC then who??? [Archive]

NiGHTFuRY

9 May 2007, 04:55

If it turns out we're looking for a coach I'd love to see us chase Voss. Maybe a concern that he hasn't had an apprentice role yet but I've heard reports that he was basically a conduit between Mathews and the players in his time at Brissy and that should hold him in good stead.

He'd certainly bring a tough, no nonsense, winners attitude to the club and there would be no talk of players not respecting him, that's for sure.

Michael Voss - could be a very awesome coach.:thumbsu: Untested - but if he got a team playing to his philosphies and the way he played then you'd have to think they be very competitive.

theGav56

9 May 2007, 10:08

This is the really big problem; if not CC then who?

I don't have a big opinion of Sumich or Harvey. They may be good,, but I have no reason to think they will be better than CC. Neither seems to have the intelligence of CC. I would prefer Harvey to Sumivich by a mile however. There are other untired assistants who would be in the same catefory as those two, and equally good and untried.

Superstars who have not even been assistants look very appealing, and as well as Voss, there will be some retirements this year. I don't like the idea. Tim Watson is the reason why. More to the point, someone like Voss would do himself a big favour by going down the assistan trail, unless the Brisbane job opened up for him.

In terms of tried coaches it is much more difficult. Walls? You have got to be kidding. I think the game has developed a fair bit, and the idea of going Back to The Future would not work.

In the near future Melbourne, Geelong, Essendon, Carlton and North Melbourne and others, could easily be looking for new coaches. This will make any potential coach highly sought after, and I wouldn't count on us getting the number 1 pick. Of the possible outgoing coaches, who do you want? I would assume that Pagan and Sheedy will not leave Melbourne. Connolly is as good or better than the other coaches from those clubs. A change may be a good thing, and I would be very surprised if CC was available that he would not be snapped up by one of those clubs, Melbourne in particular.

docker_azza

9 May 2007, 10:48

I'd think Voss would be a great solution atm as he is a well respected footballer and leader which would get a lot of respect from most players and is a great.

docker_azza

9 May 2007, 10:52

In terms of tried coaches it is much more difficult. Walls? You have got to be kidding. I think the game has developed a fair bit, and the idea of going Back to The Future would not work.
Walls was useless as a coach since he left Carlton in the 1980s. I have a feeling that his hard approach would not rub off well with the players.

shibz_1989

9 May 2007, 10:57

Walls was useless as a coach since he left Carlton in the 1980s. I have a feeling that his hard approach would not rub off well with the players.

But wasn't it him that predicted we'd be top 4 at the end of last season ;)

He did something about Freo that made him all high and mighty...:confused:

Scham

9 May 2007, 10:59

Lach72

9 May 2007, 11:02

pistol17

9 May 2007, 11:08

I would struggle to support a team Walls coached. I would need to take the club to couples counselling to get through some issues.

I wouldnt want walls either, was just a radical pick. I would love to see us go after Michael Voss

Scham

9 May 2007, 11:21

of course we will.

Don't be so negative Lach.

docker_azza

9 May 2007, 11:33

Remember this time last year we were talking up Carey being the real deal just like we were talking up Voss on this thread. Do people still believe that Carey would be good ideally?

estibador

9 May 2007, 11:49

Remember this time last year we were talking up Carey being the real deal just like we were talking up Voss on this thread. Do people still believe that Carey would be good ideally?

I still think Carey would make a good coach, not ideal but better than some out there. He shares a lot of the same qualities as Voss ie a hard nosed winners mentality and a good understanding of the game.

I think Voss has the advantage over him in several areas though. I think the players would respect him more, not as a footballer but as a person. And I think he would find it easier to relate to the players - seems more of a people person than Carey. The whole Carey/Laidley thing is starting to show that Carey may be one who lets his ego interfere with his decision making.

To me Voss seems like he'd very much be a General style leader of men in the vein of Mathews or Worsfold. If we are looking for a coach though I fear the timing might be wrong. Like Gav said I doubt many smart coaches will try jumping in the deep end after seeing what happened to Watson. Maybe Voss should have spent the year as an assistant at Brissy instead of in the media. In fact I might pop over to the Brissy board and ask them a few questions.

Scham

9 May 2007, 12:10

.

To me Voss seems like he'd very much be a General style leader of men in the vein of Mathews or Worsfold. If we are looking for a coach though I fear the timing might be wrong. Like Gav said I doubt many smart coaches will try jumping in the deep end after seeing what happened to Watson. Maybe Voss should have spent the year as an assistant at Brissy instead of in the media. In fact I might pop over to the Brissy board and ask them a few questions.
Worsfold spent a year in the media before taking the job with Carlton. I personally think it helps. You can have a good look at the game from the outside which is beneficial after being the central part of the game for 20 years or so.

Blight, Eade and Mathews also looked better coaches after their first coaching gigs and then spending time in the media before re entering the coaching arena again.

pistol17

9 May 2007, 12:28

What are your thoughts on Guy McKenna?

Scham

9 May 2007, 12:32

Definately No.

What's he done so far?

It seems that generally quality captains or dogged defenders end up making good coaches, McKenna was neither.

pistol17

9 May 2007, 12:34

Definately No.

What's he done so far?

It seems that generally quality captains or dogged defenders end up making good coaches, McKenna was neither.

Only asked cos he was in the running for the St.Kilda job which Lyon ended up with. Hasnt done too much so far as an assistant with Collingwood but he wasnt the worst defender either.

dont bowl there

9 May 2007, 12:45

I cant beleive all these people want us to get Voss as a coach! He has no experience and everyone that knows him has said he would be no good as a head coach until he has done some assistant work. If we get Voss we are rebuilding and not going after the premiership that we should be going for.

pistol17

9 May 2007, 12:53

Scham

9 May 2007, 12:57

I'd take Voss as an assistant in a heartbeat though.

Topdock65

9 May 2007, 13:01

What are your thoughts on Guy McKenna?

DUD :thumbsd: :thumbsd: :thumbsd:

dont bowl there

9 May 2007, 13:02

I'd take Voss as an assistant in a heartbeat though.

Hell yeah, but not head coach just yet.

e10pizza

9 May 2007, 13:23

What about Neesham? Just kidding.

Our players never seem to get a good old fashion spray. Connoly seems to be a nice guy but being a nice guy has not worked so far with this list.

Someone in the Mathews mould would be ideal but I do not see anyone like that available.

Yes Voss is in that mould but no experience.

The best of the rest is Harvey but the jury is still out on him for me.

We desperately need someone who can pull the group together and playing as one. To me we are currently playing as individuals.

OLDEP

9 May 2007, 13:52

this post is stirring, so abuse me as such;) .

I dont know whether id rather underachieve and lose all the time, or just consistently lose grand finals?

estibador

9 May 2007, 14:33

this post is stirring, so abuse me as such;) .

I dont know whether id rather underachieve and lose all the time, or just consistently lose grand finals?

Well if the second one means you're Collingwood then I'll take the other option.

theGav56

9 May 2007, 15:51

Our players never seem to get a good old fashion spray. Connoly seems to be a nice guy but being a nice guy has not worked so far with this list.

That is simply not true (except CC being a nice guy). The players have definitely copped sprays.

From me, there is no put not keeping the faith for this year. The performance last year warrants that. Our only other option is to dump CC for Harvey, but I do not support that while we are still in contention for finals. Give CC the opportunity to get the team to click. It is our best option for this year, and any prospects of playing finals. If he doesn't, new coach coming next year.

theGav56

9 May 2007, 15:55

The best case senario for us is Harvey takes over in 08 and convinces his mate James Hird to experience life outside windy hill for a couple of years, and come over West to be an assistant to Harvey.

If that happens and with our squad in 08 we'll be premiers for sure:thumbsu:

All good in theory, but I think experienced assistants are also better than newbies. Hird is potentially senior coach material, but needs some experience as assistant.

If Harvey, or any other rookie senior coach, was in the job next year, I would want him supprted by seasoned assistants.

pistol17

9 May 2007, 15:59

What about Gary O'Donnell... Been under Leigh Matthews and Sheedy

docker_azza

9 May 2007, 16:16

Our players never seem to get a good old fashion spray. Connoly seems to be a nice guy but being a nice guy has not worked so far with this list.

.

The fact that Connolly hasn't got the best handle of the players strengths and weaknesses and that the strategies are such that the players can't adapt to them is more like the coach's weakness then his ability to get angry and deliver a good old spray. I think the Connolly never gets angry at his players is a myth. My mail is that he does get very angry and pissed off at the players.

docker_azza

9 May 2007, 16:17

Noticed that Matthews never had an assistant coaching role at a club when he took over the Collingwood job in 1986.

wizard_9

9 May 2007, 16:27

There are two names that always come to my mind straight away when this question comes to hand, the problem is they wont be senior coaches straight away. I think they could, but with the way the game is now it just wont happen. They are...............

Michael Voss

and

Wayne Carey.

- Also as a sidenote i think Gary O'Donnell would be very good.
- Another name to consider is Glen Jakovich.
- Also anyone that says Andrew Jarman needs a punch in the mouth, he is hopeless. Has only been at North 3 years or so and has already lost several players cos hes a ****er.

ImperialPurple

9 May 2007, 16:31

Jako... :eek:

He can hardly even shtring a sentence together without saying something shtupid...

Lach72

9 May 2007, 16:33

Jako... :eek:

He can hardly even shtring a sentence together without saying something shtupid...

I larfed out loud :D

pistol17

9 May 2007, 16:46

Jako... :eek:

He can hardly even shtring a sentence together without saying something shtupid...

yeh thats a big no to Jako lol

dominguez

9 May 2007, 21:59

In order my preference would be
Pagan
Daniher
Longmire
Gary O'Donnell
Harvey
Thompson

dominguez

9 May 2007, 22:02

If you want radical - and this is - what about Robert Walls? A lot of people dont like him i know.

He's been out of the game for waaaay too long for a start. Parkin>>>>>>>Walls.

wizard_9

9 May 2007, 22:03

In order my preference would be
Pagan
Daniher
Longmire
Gary O'Donnell
Harvey
Thompson

Pagan will most likely on the market. Be interesting to see if we chase him. Daniher = NO
Longmire = MAYBE
O'Donnell = YES
Harvey = NO
Thompson (i presume Bomber??) = NO

dominguez

9 May 2007, 22:07

I reckon Daniher, Bomber Thompson and Connolly are all capable coaches, but may have stayed at the same club for too long and need a change. Rocket Eade was struggling at Sydney but has done well with the bulldogs so far.

tico

9 May 2007, 22:22

tico or jarman

haha......:D

i have given up on this subject but i still read the forum everyday.....whats the point? i can't change anything anyway....i'll just keep buying my membership and shaking my head....*sigh*

Kram81

10 May 2007, 02:06

He's been out of the game for waaaay too long for a start. Parkin>>>>>>>Walls.

I assumed that suggesting Walls was a joke. I was gonna say him but was beaten to it. :)

NiGHTFuRY

10 May 2007, 04:49

What are your thoughts on Guy McKenna?

No Way

pistol17

10 May 2007, 12:25

Pagan will most likely on the market. Be interesting to see if we chase him. Daniher = NO
Longmire = MAYBE
O'Donnell = YES
Harvey = NO
Thompson (i presume Bomber??) = NO

Pagan im 50/50 on... He is a premiership coach i know but he does seem to recycle a lot of players. That might just be a carlton thing but i think he did the same at kangaroos.

O'Donnell for me, had experience playing under sheedy, coaching under sheedy and coaching under leigh matthews.

Belnakor

10 May 2007, 12:36

Assistant coaches should be avoided at all costs. Totally untried. Its easy to look good when your not taking the blame for anything. The only assistant coach i would consider would be Suma.

Pagan has a shit list at Carlton, so its hard to judge him. However he did have the greatest player of the modern era when he was successful... so likewise, hes creditionals aren't great.

pistol17

10 May 2007, 13:00

Roundhouse

10 May 2007, 15:15

if u feel CC has had his time at fremantle who else do u think shouyld coach fremantle next year ? my suggestion (might be bit radical ) but what about sumich part of a proven team has fremantle heritage and has already expressed a desire to coach an afl side, harvs is a logical replacement but is there anyone else u might consider right for the job ???

I don't know about "logical replacements", but smart replacements would be Roos, Craig, or Worsfold. They are the only coaches whose teams have shown a consistent upward trajectory since they took over the role, and have maintained a high level of performance.

All of the other coaches mentioned as "logical replacements" on this thread are either untried or have coached teams whose performance has flactuated as much if not more than Freo's since Connolly has been around.

Assessments of a coaches performance whilst taking into account the quality of the list is very speculative and can in my opinion distort their true worth. For example, Pagan was regarded as a masterful coach while he had the best list in the league, since he inherited the worst list we are now not so sure. Mathews was regarded as a very good permiership winning coach after his time at Collingwood. After winning three premierships at Brisbane with one of the best lists ever, he will be regarded as one of the best coaches ever.

The best coach in the comp at the end of each season (All-Australian coach) is now deemed to be the premiership winning coach by default. Choosing any else is just too speculative. By that rationale Connolly was the fourth best coach in the comp last year. Suggesting anyone else apart from Worsfold, Roos, or Craig would seem to me far from "logical".

theGav56

10 May 2007, 15:17

This name hasnt come up yet but he was a senior coach however no premierships to his name. Gary Ayres (think that is how its spelt)

He has a swag of premierships and Norm Smith medals as a player of course, and di get teams into the finals. Ayres is generally detested by Geelong and Adelaide fans for destroying their clubs. He definitely has that ruthless streak, but lacks tactical nouse.

Belnakor, Sumich would be one of the last assitants that i would consider. Apart from seeming to be thick as a brick, his association with the WC Eagles would be problematic. He is coach of the midfield, and I'd have to ask the question "Why isn't he coaching the forward line?" Their midfield could be coached by any nuff-nuff, whereas their forward line is his area of speciallity, and it has problems. Could it be they are working within his limitations?

Also, I rate Longmuir, Harvey and O'Donnell higher, but reality is they are all by definition unproven.

As for your comments re Pagan's credentials not being great, he is clearly one of the finest coaches going around and has the cv to prove it, including his work at Carlton which has been the job from Hell.

pistol17

10 May 2007, 19:57

I don't know about "logical replacements", but smart replacements would be Roos, Craig, or Worsfold. They are the only coaches whose teams have shown a consistent upward trajectory since they took over the role, and have maintained a high level of performance.

All of the other coaches mentioned as "logical replacements" on this thread are either untried or have coached teams whose performance has flactuated as much if not more than Freo's since Connolly has been around.

Assessments of a coaches performance whilst taking into account the quality of the list is very speculative and can in my opinion distort their true worth. For example, Pagan was regarded as a masterful coach while he had the best list in the league, since he inherited the worst list we are now not so sure. Mathews was regarded as a very good permiership winning coach after his time at Collingwood. After winning three premierships at Brisbane with one of the best lists ever, he will be regarded as one of the best coaches ever.

The best coach in the comp at the end of each season (All-Australian coach) is now deemed to be the premiership winning coach by default. Choosing any else is just too speculative. By that rationale Connolly was the fourth best coach in the comp last year. Suggesting anyone else apart from Worsfold, Roos, or Craig would seem to me far from "logical".

We arent going to get Worsfold, Craig or Roos after CC. While we are in "premiership mode" we need to get someone who has experience as a senior coach, having said that we dont have too many too choose from unless we go for an untried assistant but that is a 50/50 decision as to whether it will work, will they be a Worsfold, Roos, Craig or will he be a Ken Judge or Wayne Brittain.

If there is no suitable replacement out of CC and Mark Harvey then we have to stick with them. If we sack CC and Harvey takes over or CC stays on we will wait and see what happens come round 22 and if we playing finals or not.

dominguez

10 May 2007, 21:11

It will take a catastrophe for Connolly to be sacked midyear. If we are 4-8 at the split round CC will be our coach round 13.

jarman

11 May 2007, 15:29

tico or jarman

Could we do any worse?

Success for 2007 was top 4 or 2 then a crack at GF. What is concerning for me is that we are starting to accept that the goal is to make the top 8. We will get knocked out first semi again.

What is worse is if (big if) we make bottom of top 8, CC will be considered a roaring success and the messia for the next 4 years, again.

How we have come to accept "Mediocrity" at this club and the heart of it, is a bloody usleless coach who has been there for five and half years with very little to show for it, except "Mediocrity" and failures. He must go - now. Harvey to take over and we assess at the end of the season. Time for a change.

Roundhouse

11 May 2007, 15:39

Could we do any worse?
Yes, Memories could put his hand up to be a Captain/Coach.

theGav56

11 May 2007, 16:03

Could we do any worse?

Success for 2007 was top 4 or 2 then a crack at GF. What is concerning for me is that we are starting to accept that the goal is to make the top 8. We will get knocked out first semi again.

What is worse is if (big if) we make bottom of top 8, CC will be considered a roaring success and the messia for the next 4 years, again.

How we have come to accept "Mediocrity" at this club and the heart of it, is a bloody usleless coach who has been there for five and half years with very little to show for it, except "Mediocrity" and failures. He must go - now. Harvey to take over and we assess at the end of the season. Time for a change.

Top 4 or 2 will still be the measuring stick I think. But you always have to allow for circumstances.

Getting us into the 8 would still be an achievement, and when the position is assessed, the question will be "Is there someone out there who can take us further?". At this stage that list isn't looking good.

I think a huge factor in all of this is Pavlich. If he supports Connolly and the direction we're headed then that would be a massive tick for a new contract. But if he thinks it is time for a change, far better that we change Coaches than that we lose Pavlich.

campbell

11 May 2007, 18:27

If you want radical - and this is - what about Robert Walls? A lot of people dont like him i know.

Seriously do not go there. My team was coached by him. DO NOT DO IT....

dominguez

11 May 2007, 20:53

But if he thinks it is time for a change, far better that we change Coaches than that we lose Pavlich.

I agree, but unfortunately there is little chance of that happening. Schwab's not going to sack his mate because Pav said so.

theGav56

12 May 2007, 10:29

I agree, but unfortunately there is little chance of that happening. Schwab's not going to sack his mate because Pav said so.

I'm meaning at the end of the year; no sacking required. I don't support sacking coaches mid-year unless it is an extreme situation. That is, not a few disgruntled supporters who think we should be ladder leaders. If we get to a point in the year and can't make the finals, perhaps CC may step aside for Harvey for the remainder of the year.

Ysaye

12 May 2007, 11:05

Pagan has a shit list at Carlton, so its hard to judge him. However he did have the greatest player of the modern era when he was successful... so likewise, hes creditionals aren't great.

Hey - but don't we have the greatest players' successor?

pistol17

17 May 2007, 11:39

Dont know what most people think about this. I heard Kevin Sheedy on the news last night saying he would be coaching next year whether that was with Essendon or another club. His contract expires at the end of the year, and so does Connolly's. Would we go after Sheedy?

theGav56

17 May 2007, 12:19

pistol17

17 May 2007, 12:21

Great respect for what Sheedy has achieved, but I don't want him replacing Connolly. There is only one reason why he would not be at the Bombers at any time in the future, and that is if he is past it.

27 years in the one job tho. Might be looking for a change of scenery. Not saying i want him here just seeing what opinions are.

thefamilyguy

17 May 2007, 13:08

If sheedy wanted to take over the reigns at freo you guys would be much better than you are now. He would be a MUCH better coach than cc, i think its generally acnowledged that you guys have a pretty good list, so with his know-how freo would be contenders ( imo ) That would be awesome actually. I hope he comes over and coaches fremantle.

It would take 2 years to get used to his playing style, so.......
in his 28th year you come 8th (2008)
in his 29th year you loose in the grand final to the eagles (2009)
in his 30th year You win a premiership (2010)

He quits after 30 years on the job and fremantle fans finally have something to feel proud anout.

you heard it here first:thumbsu: :p :D

dominguez

17 May 2007, 18:48

I'd be stoked to have Sheedy as our coach next season if we don't play in a prelim.

FootyEater

17 May 2007, 18:56

dominguez

17 May 2007, 19:07

ANYONE EXCEPT SUMICH, the tool cant string three words together

Definately.

Scham

17 May 2007, 21:18

Sheeds would make a good assistant to Harvey next year.:)

HAZY

18 May 2007, 13:07

Definately.

Definitely.

Personally I don't think Sheeds will come anywhere near Freo but I could be wrong. I doubt Connolly will be coaching next year though.

pistol17

18 May 2007, 13:47

It might be just me that thought this but did Chris Connolly initially get the Head Coach gig because he was mates with Cameron Schwab? Would that relationship make it hard to sack CC?

Scham

18 May 2007, 14:54

people tend to have a pretty big opinion of john longmire, would he be thrown into the mix? personally for me it would be 1. Harvey 2. Voss 3. Sheeds 4. Mckenna

ANYONE EXCEPT SUMICH, the tool cant string three words together

There would have to be half a dozen between Sheeds and McKenna IMO, i just can not understand why people would rate him. What has he done as a coach???

theGav56

18 May 2007, 15:05

It might be just me that thought this but did Chris Connolly initially get the Head Coach gig because he was mates with Cameron Schwab? Would that relationship make it hard to sack CC?

There is absolutely no doubt that Connolly was the best applicant for the job who was still available for us when the decision was made to appoint him. Worsfold had withdrawn because he had accepted the job with WC, and regardless it would have been line ball. Connolly's credentials would have been at least as good as any of the current crop of assistants, and he inherited a basket case of a team.

His relationship with Schwab is mixed, good and bad. Schwab has been a major factor in us being a half decent club now, and his integrity (and desire to see us not make the same mistakes we have in the past (eg the appalling handling of Drum's sacking) would make it difficult to sack Connolly without a reasonable cause. And if it did happen and was badly handled then Schwab too may go. Why wouldn't he? It would undermine his own position and integrity and he could pick almost any vacant GM/Senior Management job that comes available in the AFL.

I have little doubt that if we don't stick with Connolly then there will be a position for him with a Melbourne club. He has clearly demonstrated coaching ability as well as communication, vision and list management skills. All things that are critical to coaching at a senior level, and lacking at some other clubs. That is not to say that he is the best coach going around, but he may well be the best available.

I get the feeling pistol that you don't know what it was like prior to Schwab and Connolly (and Hart). All I can say is, be afraid, be very afraid.

I think we should not keep Connolly unless he is the best available coach.

pistol17

18 May 2007, 15:46

I get the feeling pistol that you don't know what it was like prior to Schwab and Connolly (and Hart). All I can say is, be afraid, be very afraid.

I think we should not keep Connolly unless he is the best available coach.

I do know what it was like before Schwab/Connolly and Hart. At the time CC was appointed I said it was the best thing to happen at Fremantle. Only made the comment to see what the thoughts are for when the negotiations start for contract renewal. I think Connolly still has something to offer, just have to wait and see where we finish in 2007.

dominguez

18 May 2007, 19:44

There is absolutely no doubt that Connolly was the best applicant for the job who was still available for us when the decision was made to appoint him. Worsfold had withdrawn because he had accepted the job with WC, and regardless it would have been line ball. Connolly's credentials would have been at least as good as any of the current crop of assistants, and he inherited a basket case of a team.

His relationship with Schwab is mixed, good and bad. Schwab has been a major factor in us being a half decent club now, and his integrity (and desire to see us not make the same mistakes we have in the past (eg the appalling handling of Drum's sacking) would make it difficult to sack Connolly without a reasonable cause. And if it did happen and was badly handled then Schwab too may go. Why wouldn't he? It would undermine his own position and integrity and he could pick almost any vacant GM/Senior Management job that comes available in the AFL.

I have little doubt that if we don't stick with Connolly then there will be a position for him with a Melbourne club. He has clearly demonstrated coaching ability as well as communication, vision and list management skills. All things that are critical to coaching at a senior level, and lacking at some other clubs. That is not to say that he is the best coach going around, but he may well be the best available.

I get the feeling pistol that you don't know what it was like prior to Schwab and Connolly (and Hart). All I can say is, be afraid, be very afraid.

I think we should not keep Connolly unless he is the best available coach.

Worsfold accepted the west coast job because we offered a 2 year deal and they offered him 3. When we offered Worsfold the 2 year deal Neill Craig looked certain to be appointed eagles coach so Worsfold would have been our coach if he was offered 3 years.

IMO the relationship between Connolly and Schwab is bad for the club. Obviously the senior coach and CEO need to have a strong relationship, but the fact that they have been very close friends for over 20 years compromises Schwab's position. There is no way that CC would have got a 3 year extension in 2005 if Schwab wasn't his mate.

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal. Because of this I reckon CC will get another contract if we make the eight. Even though the bar was set to atleast play in another prelim, extending Connolly's contract is the easiest option for Hart and Schwab.

I agree again, if CC isn't at Freo next year I think he will coach again at AFL level from 2008 or 2009. He is a a pretty good coach and his media skills would be a huge asset to a Victorian club. He has trouble motivating the Fremantle playing group so a change at seasons end would probably be the best thing for both parties, but I expect him to coach us next season.

The fact that we were a rabble prior to Connolly, Hart and Schwab arriving is irrelevent. Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.

Roundhouse

18 May 2007, 20:16

Worsfold accepted the west coast job because we offered a 2 year deal and they offered him 3. When we offered Worsfold the 2 year deal Neill Craig looked certain to be appointed eagles coach so Worsfold would have been our coach if he was offered 3 years.

IMO the relationship between Connolly and Schwab is bad for the club. Obviously the senior coach and CEO need to have a strong relationship, but the fact that they have been very close friends for over 20 years compromises Schwab's position. There is no way that CC would have got a 3 year extension in 2005 if Schwab wasn't his mate.

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal. Because of this I reckon CC will get another contract if we make the eight. Even though the bar was set to atleast play in another prelim, extending Connolly's contract is the easiest option for Hart and Schwab.

I agree again, if CC isn't at Freo next year I think he will coach again at AFL level from 2008 or 2009. He is a a pretty good coach and his media skills would be a huge asset to a Victorian club. He has trouble motivating the Fremantle playing group so a change at seasons end would probably be the best thing for both parties, but I expect him to coach us next season.

The fact that we were a rabble prior to Connolly, Hart and Schwab arriving is irrelevent. Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.

Everything highlighted is concocted tripe. That's my opinion.

The last part is a little revealing though. By saying that our clubs state before CC is irrelevant, you are hinting that any improvements in our performance as a team and a club have nothing to do with Connolly (or Schwab or Hart).

Sorry but you are just plain wrong. The club was a rabble that could have very easily stayed a rabble or easily gotten futher in the shit.

Roundhouse

18 May 2007, 20:22

Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.

Why use a clumsy metaphor/maxim?

Why don't you just say "IMO Connolly isn't the best coach on the market"?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on who is better.

theGav56

18 May 2007, 21:13

It is always much easier to have a crack at the coach, and in the end that is fair enough; the buck does stop there. It also lets the playing group off lightly. BUT, who would expect the club to be in a different place on the ladder if;

• Farmer, Black, Schammer, Johnson and Longmuir had been available?

There are other circumstances/players, but these players were critical to us getting a good start to the year. Them not being available doesn't let the coach off the hook as perhaps over aggression is something that has been encouraged.

BUT, I think with this playing group and this coach we are a consistant finals team, and still expect us to be in the finals this year. Why would would you trade that for anything but a guarenteed improvement? Sumich, Harvey, Lonmire etc are a LONG way from a guarenteed improvement.

estibador

18 May 2007, 21:42

BUT, I think with this playing group and this coach we are a consistant finals team, and still expect us to be in the finals this year. Why would would you trade that for anything but a guarenteed improvement? Sumich, Harvey, Lonmire etc are a LONG way from a guarenteed improvement.

Are we a guaranteed consistent finals team under CC though? After all we've only made the finals twice out of his 5 completed seasons and this one hasn't started off too promising. In fact, the whole reason he cops so much flack is because we missed the finals in 04/05 with a team widely regarded as having top 8 talent at least. The year we looked bound for the finals only to fold and miss out by losing our last 5 games was particulary disappointing.

I agree there's no point sacking CC if there's no one better available but he needs to keep the team improving. If we continue to hover mid table or even slide backwards then maybe we have to take a chance on a highly rated assistant.

Hopefully it won't be necessary but if it comes to the stage of having to find a new coach I'd like to see us throw mega bucks at a proven premiership coach. Our team has the raw material we just need someone who can squeeze every drop of talent out of them. Lethal would be my dream coach but that's never going to happen unfotunately. It would be interesting to see what someone like Sheedy could do with our team.

Dr Ralph Dagg

18 May 2007, 23:15

He has a swag of premierships and Norm Smith medals as a player of course, and di get teams into the finals. Ayres is generally detested by Geelong and Adelaide fans for destroying their clubs. He definitely has that ruthless streak, but lacks tactical nouse.

Belnakor, Sumich would be one of the last assitants that i would consider. Apart from seeming to be thick as a brick, his association with the WC Eagles would be problematic. He is coach of the midfield, and I'd have to ask the question "Why isn't he coaching the forward line?" Their midfield could be coached by any nuff-nuff, whereas their forward line is his area of speciallity, and it has problems. Could it be they are working within his limitations?
Hear, hear. I rate him as highly as I do McKenna.

Also, I rate Longmuir, Harvey and O'Donnell higher, but reality is they are all by definition unproven.
I think we should wait for the final diagnosis on Longmuir's knees before we consider him for coach. Longmire might be a better applicant. :p

I thought O'Donnell is the annointed successor for Sheedy. I thought he understood he was more likely to get Sheedy's job than take over from Mathews.

Harvey is the logical choice. But if I was Schwabby I'd be sounding out Sheedy. He loves Western Australia. He's quirky enough to fit in at Fremantle and we could get five years out of him. And he already knows half the football department.

As for your comments re Pagan's credentials not being great, he is clearly one of the finest coaches going around and has the cv to prove it, including his work at Carlton which has been the job from Hell.
He took that job on the basis that he had the first two draft picks for they year. He ended up with basically no draft picks for two years and a list of injury prone has beens with some nut jobs to boot. But I don't think he'd be a fit at Fremantle. He fell out with management at North Melbourne and is on rocky ground at Carlton.

theGav56

19 May 2007, 13:45

In fact, the whole reason he cops so much flack is because we missed the finals in 04/05 with a team widely regarded as having top 8 talent at least.

Yes getting to the finals in 03 did create unrealistic expectations. have a look at the list from then and compare it to now, including the additional physical conditioning and experience. there is no way that it was realistic for us to expect to play finals in 04/05, and yet we almost did.

Hopefully it won't be necessary but if it comes to the stage of having to find a new coach I'd like to see us throw mega bucks at a proven premiership coach. Our team has the raw material we just need someone who can squeeze every drop of talent out of them. Lethal would be my dream coach but that's never going to happen unfotunately. It would be interesting to see what someone like Sheedy could do with our team.

Agree. I would actually only like us to get a new coach if we had access to an experienced and available coach. Pagan and Sheedy look possible, but one of my concerns is that it would take a long contract to secure them. Maximum 3 year contract for me, preferably 2. Don't care about the money.

I think we should wait for the final diagnosis on Longmuir's knees before we consider him for coach. Longmire might be a better applicant. :p

Haha. Got me. Yes of course I meant Longmire.

On Longmuir and his degenerative playing career, what happens if he retires and we pay our his contract as ruck coach? Does it free up salary cap?

Dr Ralph Dagg

19 May 2007, 14:19

Worsfold accepted the west coast job because we offered a 2 year deal and they offered him 3. When we offered Worsfold the 2 year deal Neill Craig looked certain to be appointed eagles coach so Worsfold would have been our coach if he was offered 3 years.

IMO the relationship between Connolly and Schwab is bad for the club. Obviously the senior coach and CEO need to have a strong relationship, but the fact that they have been very close friends for over 20 years compromises Schwab's position. There is no way that CC would have got a 3 year extension in 2005 if Schwab wasn't his mate.
This is pure speculation. It might be true but a number of ducks need to line up to make it so. The first is that Rick Hart is a bit of a dummy. The second is the majority of the board are dummies. The third is the WAFC are also dummies. All of these have to be true before the conspiracy line can hold water. I don't think so. That CC and Schwabby are mates is a line trotted out by the WHTP types to justify their innate belief that CC can't take us to a premiership.

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal. Because of this I reckon CC will get another contract if we make the eight. Even though the bar was set to atleast play in another prelim, extending Connolly's contract is the easiest option for Hart and Schwab.
It will depend on what happens. I don't think anything will happen until the end of the season. I think limping into the bottom of the 8 won't cut it unless we have some very good reasons.

My suggestion is that CC and his wife are a package deal, and SHE might want to get out of the fishbowl and go back to Victoria. I don't think it will have anything to do with Schwab. It'll be down to the Directors and WAFC.

I agree again, if CC isn't at Freo next year I think he will coach again at AFL level from 2008 or 2009. He is a a pretty good coach and his media skills would be a huge asset to a Victorian club. He has trouble motivating the Fremantle playing group so a change at seasons end would probably be the best thing for both parties, but I expect him to coach us next season.

The fact that we were a rabble prior to Connolly, Hart and Schwab arriving is irrelevent. Emu bitter is better than xxxx gold, but that doesn't mean emu bitter is the best beer on the market.
I think if CC isn't at Freo next year where we will all have our attention will be a major revamp of the list. I'd expect 8 or 9 players to go --either retired, dropped or traded. While we have developed both ends of the ground the core of midfield has stayed the same.

estibador

19 May 2007, 14:32

I agree, if Connolly goes I think Schwab (and probably Rick Hart) should go too. They are a package deal.

I don't agree with this at all. CC was a very highly rated assistant when we hired him and if he hadn't got the Freo job he surely would've been hired by another club by now. It's not like he was some unknown man off the street who only got the job because he was Schwab's friend.

Schwab and Hart have overseen an amazing turnaround to the most successful off field period this club has every seen. It would be madness to force them to leave if CC was sacked. Otherwise you'd be forced to sack your CEO and President everytime a coach they hired didn't work out. You only have to look at Richmond's heritage to see how a culture of instability can affect a club.

If the only issue is their relationship with CC and CC leaves, then we don't have an issue anymore do we?

poshman

19 May 2007, 17:50

I agree, and hopefully schwab stays for a long time, though hart has already said he may only be here a few more years.

As far as connolly goes, well we suffer from inconsistencies, and he doesn't seem to be able to fix that (whether that is his fault or not) the coach of the club will always be held responsible.

I must admit though I wouldlook forward to an overhaul of the list. As the players need to be made responsible as well.

NiGHTFuRY

19 May 2007, 18:59

I don't agree with this at all. CC was a very highly rated assistant when we hired him and if he hadn't got the Freo job he surely would've been hired by another club by now. It's not like he was some unknown man off the street who only got the job because he was Schwab's friend.

Schwab and Hart have overseen an amazing turnaround to the most successful off field period this club has every seen. It would be madness to force them to leave if CC was sacked. Otherwise you'd be forced to sack your CEO and President everytime a coach they hired didn't work out. You only have to look at Richmond's heritage to see how a culture of instability can affect a club.

If the only issue is their relationship with CC and CC leaves, then we don't have an issue anymore do we?

No way. The off-field stability and profit Schwab & Hart have brought to Freo' are invaluable. The club coporately was a mess and described as a "basket case" untill they arrived. We need the stability. Dont become like Richmond.
As far as the coach goes - Harvey... or possibley Sheedy - if he's interested and wants another gig if he's moved on from the Bombers.

dominguez

19 May 2007, 20:05

The last part is a little revealing though. By saying that our clubs state before CC is irrelevant, you are hinting that any improvements in our performance as a team and a club have nothing to do with Connolly (or Schwab or Hart).

Sorry but you are just plain wrong. The club was a rabble that could have very easily stayed a rabble or easily gotten futher in the shit.

I think Connolly has managed the list well. Unfortunately I think that he isn't going to be able to take us to the summit, so it will be best for all parties if he moves on at the end of the season. Schwab and Hart have handled off field issues superbly, no one would have believed 5 years ago that we'd have this many members. They will certainly leave the finances in a better state than they found them.

I do however believe that onfield improvement was a certainty. Our list at the end of 2001 was laden with first round picks and Croad, McPharlin, Simmonds and Farmer had just arrived at the club. I consider the fact that we were terrible beofre Connolly, Schwab and Hart arrived irrelevant because the draft is structured to catapult teams that finish at the bottom back up.

Connolly did a fantastic job to turn things around so quickly, and his personality was fantastic for a club that was at the lowest of lows. But I feel that he currently isn't getting the best from the players and needs to turn things around quickly or he won't be here much longer.

dominguez

19 May 2007, 20:08

Why use a clumsy metaphor/maxim?

Why don't you just say "IMO Connolly isn't the best coach on the market"?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on who is better.

We've got a great list and lots of money. I'd say the only coaches who definately won't be available in 4 months time are Worsfold, Craig, Malthouse, Williams, Roos, Wallace, Eade and Lyon.

Ripper

19 May 2007, 20:14

I think Connolly has managed the list well. Unfortunately I think that he isn't going to be able to take us to the summit, so it will be best for all parties if he moves on at the end of the season. Schwab and Hart have handled off field issues superbly, no one would have believed 5 years ago that we'd have this many members. They will certainly leave the finances in a better state than they found them.

I do however believe that onfield improvement was a certainty. Our list at the end of 2001 was laden with first round picks and Croad, McPharlin, Simmonds and Farmer had just arrived at the club. I consider the fact that we were terrible beofre Connolly, Schwab and Hart arrived irrelevant because the draft is structured to catapult teams that finish at the bottom back up.

Connolly did a fantastic job to turn things around so quickly, and his personality was fantastic for a club that was at the lowest of lows. But I feel that he currently isn't getting the best from the players and needs to turn things around quickly or he won't be here much longer.

It may be the aim of it but it has yet to happen in the real world.

Hawks , Dee's , Bullies , Tigers , Pies , Saints , Blues have all double dipped at least twice and are yet to win a flag.

You could add the Cats to that with their pletlora of F/S picks.

dominguez

19 May 2007, 20:21

Hawks , Dee's , Bullies , Tigers , Pies , Saints , Blues have all double dipped at least twice and are yet to win a flag.

You could add the Cats to that with their pletlora of F/S picks.

They haven't won a flag, but they would have played finals not long after finishing down the bottom. My point was that some people believe that Connolly is a very good coach because we finished 7th in his second season, but almost all teams would play finals once in 4 years after finishing bottom like we did.

Because we've only done it twice it's considered an achievement by some to make the 8, which is a shame and illustrates that after 12 years of pain some of us are willing to accept mediocrity.

Ripper

19 May 2007, 20:35

They haven't won a flag, but they would have played finals not long after finishing down the bottom. My point was that some people believe that Connolly is a very good coach because we finished 7th in his second season, but almost all teams would play finals once in 4 years after finishing bottom like we did.

Because we've only done it twice it's considered an achievement by some to make the 8, which is a shame and illustrates that after 12 years of pain some of us are willing to accept mediocrity.

That is just plain wrong.

Twelve years cannot be blamed on the current Admin as they only started in 2002.

Too many people are after the quick fix and it does just not happen unless you are a top team that has an off year due to mainly injury.

Have the Tigers rebounded strongly?
What about the Blues? They won the spoon the year after We did.

What about the Bullies? - They won a spoon the year after that.

The fact of the matter is that We have been the 7th best performed team on W/L since 2002.

Before that we were by far the worst - a group that had never ever won three games in a row ever.

http://afl.allthestats.com/statistics/alltime.php?t2=&yrfm=2002&yrto=2007&gnd=0&inat=4&when=

wizard_9

19 May 2007, 20:50

Not that i want him but i bet if Sheeds was available and so was this job he'd be here tomorrow. He would take the job no questions asked.

tico

19 May 2007, 20:51

dominguez

19 May 2007, 21:01

That is just plain wrong.

Twelve years cannot be blamed on the current Admin as they only started in 2002.

Too many people are after the quick fix and it does just not happen unless you are a top team that has an off year due to mainly injury.

Have the Tigers rebounded strongly?
What about the Blues? They won the spoon the year after We did.

What about the Bullies? - They won a spoon the year after that.

The fact of the matter is that We have been the 7th best performed team on W/L since 2002.

Before that we were by far the worst - a group that had never ever won three games in a row ever.

http://afl.allthestats.com/statistics/alltime.php?t2=&yrfm=2002&yrto=2007&gnd=0&inat=4&when=

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't criticising the fact that we have had a tough 12 years, my point was that because we have been down for so long the bar has been lowered by some peoeple, and that they will be satisfied if we play finals this year. Being 7th best over 5 years isn't something to hang our hat on. The fact that you mentioned it suggest that you are prepared to accept mediocrity.

Being the worst team over 7 years meant that we were guaranteed dramatic improvement once a competent administration and coach moved in. There were 5 top 5 picks on our list with less than 50 games experience at the start of 2002 so improvement was practically assured. Imagine having Marc Murphy, Brett Deledio, Lance Franklin, Matt Leuenberger and Dale Thomas on the one list.

I think that the club, like the supporters, have looked for the quick fix quite often.

The bulldogs made the 8 within 3 years of finishing last so they support my point.

The blues are irrelevent because they lost their picks. Would we have made the 8 in 2003 if we had lost our picks in 1999 and 2000?

Richmond are currently struggling, but they finished 9th 2 years after finishing 16th so they got close.

Ripper

20 May 2007, 00:03

Sorry, I was unclear. I wasn't criticising the fact that we have had a tough 12 years, my point was that because we have been down for so long the bar has been lowered by some peoeple, and that they will be satisfied if we play finals this year. Being 7th best over 5 years isn't something to hang our hat on. The fact that you mentioned it suggest that you are prepared to accept mediocrity.

Being the worst team over 7 years meant that we were guaranteed dramatic improvement once a competent administration and coach moved in. There were 5 top 5 picks on our list with less than 50 games experience at the start of 2002 so improvement was practically assured. Imagine having Marc Murphy, Brett Deledio, Lance Franklin, Matt Leuenberger and Dale Thomas on the one list.

I think that the club, like the supporters, have looked for the quick fix quite often.

The bulldogs made the 8 within 3 years of finishing last so they support my point.

The blues are irrelevent because they lost their picks. Would we have made the 8 in 2003 if we had lost our picks in 1999 and 2000?

Richmond are currently struggling, but they finished 9th 2 years after finishing 16th so they got close.

Not true . We started yet again in 2001 after drummies big cleanout.

No surprise that Brisbane & Port have rebounded so quickly when you count up the number of premiership players on their respective lists.

We made the finals two years after finishing last with a group that had never won 3 in a row.

It take time to build from that , While Macca , Parks and Cookie are still getting a game (much as i love them) it means we are still building.

We also lost draft picks.
No 1 in the 2001 P/S draft and our 3rd round pick in the 2002 draft.

We also didn't bounce along on the bottom (We could not afford to We were $7mil in the red).

Why have you picked players from different drafts in your example?

You have 2 x No 1 picks there.

dominguez

20 May 2007, 00:25

Fabian Francis was a big loss. ;)

Ripper

20 May 2007, 00:30

Fabian Francis was a big loss. ;)

Ah, We will never know. ;)

Win the next two and We are 5-5. :thumbsu:

dominguez

20 May 2007, 00:39

Lach72

20 May 2007, 00:42

5-5 will mean that we'll need to go 10-2 to make the top 4. Anything short of a prelim will be a failure, but we could get there from 5th or 6th. The next 5 are very winable, aslong as we play somewhere near our best. We need a good start Friday night, the opposition have kicked the first goal in all 8 games this season which is ridiculous.

We can beat the Saints. They are decimated by injury. Whether we will or not is another thing.
On form the Magpies will probably run over the top of us.
We should beat the Tigers.
After that it really is a raffle.

Billy Hunt

20 May 2007, 00:44

Not true . We started yet again in 2001 after drummies big cleanout.

No surprise that Brisbane & Port have rebounded so quickly when you count up the number of premiership players on their respective lists.

We made the finals two years after finishing last with a group that had never won 3 in a row.

It take time to build from that , While Macca , Parks and Cookie are still getting a game (much as i love them) it means we are still building.

We also lost draft picks.
No 1 in the 2001 P/S draft and our 3rd round pick in the 2002 draft.

We also didn't bounce along on the bottom (We could not afford to We were $7mil in the red).

Why have you picked players from different drafts in your example?

You have 2 x No 1 picks there.

This is part of the problem, other than Luke McPharlin who have we got from the strongest draft ever

2001 National Draft
4-Graham Polak (East Fremantle)
52-Andrew Browne (Claremont)
56-Paul Medhurst (Claremont)
66 not utilised
Pre-season Draft
4-Simon Eastaugh (Essendon)
Trades
Trent Croad (Hawthorn) and Luke McPharlin (Hawthorn) traded to Fremantle for draft picks 1 (Hawthorn used to pick Luke Hodge), 20 (Hawthorn used to pick Daniel Elstone) and 36 (Hawthorn used to pick Sam Mitchell) Heath Black traded by Fremantle for draft selection 17 Jeff Farmer traded to Melbourne for draft selection 17 (Melbourne used to pick James Kelly) Troy Simmonds (Melbourne) traded to Fremantle for Daniel Bandy

Rookie Elevations
Robert Haddrill
Keren Ugle
Daniel Haines

Ripper

20 May 2007, 00:46

5-5 will mean that we'll need to go 10-2 to make the top 4. Anything short of a prelim will be a failure, but we could get there from 5th or 6th. The next 5 are very winable, aslong as we play somewhere near our best. We need a good start Friday night, the opposition have kicked the first goal in all 8 games this season which is ridiculous.

14 wins will just about do it this year IMO.

Funnily enough I feel more confident when We don't kick the first goal.

The Sainters are racked with injury at the moment and I reckon Montanga will be looked at by the MRP.

Does anybody know what the clearance count was today?

The Hawks appeared to smash the Saints at the stoppages.

Ripper

20 May 2007, 00:48

This is part of the problem, other than Luke McPharlin who have we got from the strongest draft ever

2001 National Draft
4-Graham Polak (East Fremantle)
52-Andrew Browne (Claremont)
56-Paul Medhurst (Claremont)
66 not utilised
Pre-season Draft
4-Simon Eastaugh (Essendon)
Trades
Trent Croad (Hawthorn) and Luke McPharlin (Hawthorn) traded to Fremantle for draft picks 1 (Hawthorn used to pick Luke Hodge), 20 (Hawthorn used to pick Daniel Elstone) and 36 (Hawthorn used to pick Sam Mitchell) Heath Black traded by Fremantle for draft selection 17 Jeff Farmer traded to Melbourne for draft selection 17 (Melbourne used to pick James Kelly) Troy Simmonds (Melbourne) traded to Fremantle for Daniel Bandy

Rookie Elevations
Robert Haddrill
Keren Ugle
Daniel Haines

Aaron Sandilands & Rodger Hayden from the Rookie draft.