View Full Version : Discussion Topic - Is this racist?
Do you know any aboriginal people?
I know some who are really nice..and i know some that are really piggy!!! they smashed up the house next door...strange way to live
This was the opening text in a thread started on the General Talk board last Tuesday, 9th of April. This thread was removed which resulted in a a lively discussion taking place on the moderators boartd.
Now we throw the question to you.
Is this quoted remark racist?
In my view, the post is plainly racist
I have no doubt that there are good and bad Aboriginals, just the same as there are good and bad Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Vietnamese etc... Each group are capable of behaviour that can be considered appalling.
However, there is no mention of any other racial groups within the original post. To selectively attack one group whilst ignoring the others constitutes discrimination and therefore racism.
On the contrary, if you are including all groups as a basis for comparison, you are treating all of them equally and therefore not discriminating against any of them.
CJH, when I first saw this thread, I thought "Uh oh, this won't last long".
I couldn't understand why he would want to post something like that in the first place unless his intention was to stir up racism on the boards. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did actually.
But wasn't it closed after something Rohan added to it?
Dr Zaius
12 Apr 2002, 18:14
Originally posted by CJH
This was the opening text in a thread started on the General Talk board last Tuesday, 9th of April. This thread was removed which resulted in a a lively discussion taking place on the moderators boartd.
Now we throw the question to you.
Is this quoted remark racist?
I think racist. I think the second line of the thread was included to give the writer a "fall back" position if accused of racism however the first line sets the racist tone of the email.
The first line of the email is unnecessary in describing what the writer dislikes about their neighbours. The writer thinks it strange that people would trash their house.
I dont know any aboriginals and I still think it is strange to trash your house. I think the first line implies that this is normal practice for Aboriginals.
Probably a good think to remove the thread if the moderators are concerned people may take offense.
Dr Zaius
12 Apr 2002, 18:16
Originally posted by chicken minute
The line in itself isn't explicitly racist, as it suggests that aboriginal run the gamut of being nice to being nasty, which is something you can say about any race. More importantly doesn't reinforce or create any stereotypes.
However it's the context that's important. I can't quite remember what the post was about, but linking whatever drama or incident occured to a statement about aboriginals, simply because one of the involved will create perceptions about the way in which aboriginals act. Its subtle, but it is racist.
Another example of how this works is below. Consider the following as if it were an article
_________________________
There has been a big increase in crime recently. I know some refugees and they are nice people.
_________________________
The above statement gives the impression that somehow refugees are criminals, when all I've actually said is that they are nice people.
Sorry
I think I may have rewritten your post from a slightly different angle.
Perhaps, to aid the less enlightened of us, it might be a good idea if each poster defined racism as they understand it.
It's such an emotive word that I suspect means different things to different people, depending on age, background, location etc..
So let's see if there is some common ground.
Dr Zaius
12 Apr 2002, 18:58
Originally posted by Fred
Perhaps, to aid the less enlightened of us, it might be a good idea if each poster defined racism as they understand it.
It's such an emotive word that I suspect means different things to different people, depending on age, background, location etc..
So let's see if there is some common ground.
Well I would say that racism is the belief that every race has defining characteristics. It then follows that a particular person can believe that their race is superior to other races because of these characteristics.
However I am an ape and consequently consider ALL human life to be of little value.
sandeano
12 Apr 2002, 19:30
Perhaps, to aid the less enlightened of us, it might be a good idea if each poster defined racism as they understand it.
The post in question was poorly (and I reckon hastily) written. I think it best that the poster in question be invited here to elaborate on his thoughts.
It was Butcher or Alfred wasn't it? (I dunno, I always get them mixed up).
I agree with Fred...define racism first. Nobody is interested in the dictionary definition anymore and its a hell of a good term to put people down with these days....'you're a racist'.
Lets face it, thats what humans do naturally, compete. And part of the ammo is put downs such as fatso, shortarse, flathead, wog etc......... but it is 'groovy' today to single out race for special attention.
Whether the comment is considered racist or not I don't find it offensive in the slightest. Change the word 'Aboriginal' to 'POME' and it refers to my race, and the statement that followed is true in cases about some English families too.
Does this statement then concern me..........not in the slightest.
What concerns me is the brainwashing of people to believe that differentiation or mention of 'race' in a negative way is any more significant than differentiation or mention in a negative way of any other differentiator that is used in society as a put down. And further to that the incredible belief that we as a society can be trained or cajoled into being something that we never can.
daddy_4_eyes
12 Apr 2002, 20:21
I think people get too worked up about racism. It is impossible nowadays to use words like "asian" "european" or "black" without being labelled racist (as opposed to more serious terms such as wog, gook or ******). Just because someone doesn't like <insert race here> food does not make them racist, yet if you were to say it out loud people would condemn you automatically (especially politically correct teachers who talk out of their ass).
Visit here (http://www.wog.com.au) for a lighter side of one such race.
Originally posted by Frodo
I agree with Fred...define racism first.
...
Discrimination.
That's what it is.
Discrimate against someone on the basis of gender and it is sexism.
Discrimate against someone on the basis of age and it is ageism.
Discriminate against someone on the basis of race and it is racism
Originally posted by Bee
CJH, when I first saw this thread, I thought "Uh oh, this won't last long".
I couldn't understand why he would want to post something like that in the first place unless his intention was to stir up racism on the boards. I was surprised it lasted as long as it did actually.
But wasn't it closed after something Rohan added to it?
It was closed, not because of anything that Rohan said or did, but because Bluey felt that it was far too delicate an issue to be bouncing around the General Talk board. It would be far to easy to degenerate into a shambles.
Voice of Reason
13 Apr 2002, 00:23
Originally posted by Frodo
Whether the comment is considered racist or not I don't find it offensive in the slightest. Change the word 'Aboriginal' to 'POME' and it refers to my race, and the statement that followed is true in cases about some English families too.
I understand that a fairly recent study discovered that the most racially abused ethnic minority in Australia is indeed the whingeing pom.
I agree with CJH that discrimination is the key. Not sure without the full context whether the post was racist - I didn't find it offensive, but then I'm not easily offended.
clucas91
13 Apr 2002, 09:30
Yes, many Aboriginals are drunken violent welfare abusers, but there are just as many if not more Anglo-Saxon people who do the same, the way that Aboriginals were treated back during the years 1790-1970 were appaling, and that is what they want an apology for.
For the Aboriginal people that DO trash and rob houses is becasue they are members of a race that has had their true way of life stolen. They are merely living they way they see fit because they cannot integrate into the "white man's" culture.
Originally posted by clucas91
Yes, many Aboriginals are drunken violent welfare abusers, but there are just as many if not more Anglo-Saxon people who do the same, the way that Aboriginals were treated back during the years 1790-1970 were appaling, and that is what they want an apology for.
For the Aboriginal people that DO trash and rob houses is becasue they are members of a race that has had their true way of life stolen. They are merely living they way they see fit because they cannot integrate into the "white man's" culture.
Of course there are more anglo-saxons that do the above but only in gross terms - not as a percentage of population.
If you think an apology will magically change everything, I think you are mistaken.
I'll start asking those I come into contact with every day what they think about it. I suspect it will be like politics - a few make the noise and the silent majority couldn't care less - and that applies to both aboriginals and anglo-saxons.
Bloodstained Angel
13 Apr 2002, 10:29
It may interest people to know that 1 out of every 3 Aboriginal people don't drink alcohol at all.
By far the biggest rate of sobreity of any group in Australia.
Not many people like to dwell on this fact, it kinda blows the stereotypical 'drunken black' clichje out of the water.
Just thought I would throw that liuttle anecdote in before everybody starts making dumb comments about Aboriginals and booze.
As for the comment - Ummmm, personally I didn't take offence, but I do believe it is racist.
All different types of people trash their houses - how many times have you seen the good old "shame file' type expose on Today Tonight or Current Affair where a film crew visits a house in the suburbs that is literally full to the rafters with years of piled up garbage ?
Plenty of that sorta stuff around - and its interesting to note most of the residents of these houses tend to be Anglo-Saxons.
So to single out Aboriginals as people who 'smash up houses' is unfair.
I would actually liike to see some stats from Public Housing Authorities on how many tenants do smash up their houses and how many of these people are Aborigines.
Could be interesting reading.
cheers
Originally posted by CJH
Discrimination.
That's what it is.
Discrimate against someone on the basis of gender and it is sexism.
Discrimate against someone on the basis of age and it is ageism.
Discriminate against someone on the basis of race and it is racism
Now IMO that is almost EXACTLY right. It's all about 'unfair' discrimination. ( unless you use the word 'unfair' then putting candles on a birthday cake could be considered 'ageism' )
IMO 'racism' is an over used, badly understood 'put down' that has become a joke of the English language, but 'unfair racial discrimination' is something 'real' and not good. Unfair racial discrimination is NOT racism as dictionary defined or as used popularly.
I find there are two meanings.
1) Dictionary...........I have used McQuarie as it is Australian.
/ noun 1. the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others. 2. offensive or aggressive behaviour to members of another race stemming from such a belief. 3. a policy or system of government and society based upon it. Also, racialism.
What has changed from the oxford definition over the past decade or so is the addition of the word 'usually', because it implies that the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures alone can constitute racism.
2) Anything said or written involving race and a possibly perceived negativity.
Now that leaves a huge dilemma because by either definition I am without doubt racist because I fall into both catagories. And I have no problems with it because I believe truth to be more important than political correctness.
However take the word 'usually' out and I am not racist at all because I very strongly disagree with the endinginvolving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others.
So there INHO lies the root of the problem. A definition which has changed over the years regularly and now poses as one that cannot be undestood as having a clear meaning and thus leads to the populus determining their own definitions.
And until it is defined correctly then the use of the word is pretty meaningless other than a put down.
Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
It may interest people to know that 1 out of every 3 Aboriginal people don't drink alcohol at all.
Isn't the availabilty of alcohol in remote communities the vital factor in that statistic ?
Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
It may interest people to know that 1 out of every 3 Aboriginal people don't drink alcohol at all.
By far the biggest rate of sobreity of any group in Australia.
Not many people like to dwell on this fact, it kinda blows the stereotypical 'drunken black' clichje out of the water.
Just thought I would throw that liuttle anecdote in before everybody starts making dumb comments about Aboriginals and booze.
As for the comment - Ummmm, personally I didn't take offence, but I do believe it is racist.
All different types of people trash their houses - how many times have you seen the good old "shame file' type expose on Today Tonight or Current Affair where a film crew visits a house in the suburbs that is literally full to the rafters with years of piled up garbage ?
Plenty of that sorta stuff around - and its interesting to note most of the residents of these houses tend to be Anglo-Saxons.
So to single out Aboriginals as people who 'smash up houses' is unfair.
I would actually liike to see some stats from Public Housing Authorities on how many tenants do smash up their houses and how many of these people are Aborigines.
Could be interesting reading.
cheers
IMO - The gross figure would be somewhat meaningless as it is slanted by the large numbers of 'closed' settlements, especialy in the north, that have booze bans. In terms of 'integrated' living, I suspect the figures would be far different. They certainly would be in my area - and that's from personal experience, not hearsay.
Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
All different types of people trash their houses - how many times have you seen the good old "shame file' type expose on Today Tonight or Current Affair where a film crew visits a house in the suburbs that is literally full to the rafters with years of piled up garbage ?
Plenty of that sorta stuff around - and its interesting to note most of the residents of these houses tend to be Anglo-Saxons.
So to single out Aboriginals as people who 'smash up houses' is unfair.
I would actually liike to see some stats from Public Housing Authorities on how many tenants do smash up their houses and how many of these people are Aborigines.
Could be interesting reading.
I can just imagine the outcry from the 'politically correct' if an expose of an aboriginal trashing episode was aired. The general population is a more benign, safer target.
The fact remains though that those of us that live in areas with a high indiginous population- both integrated and closed settlements - see many examples of trashing that far outweighs the statistical representation.
It's probably not something that city-dwellers would come across, although I believe parts of Sydney could be affected.
Santos L Helper
13 Apr 2002, 14:24
I find it entirely abhorrent and racist to suggest that if alcohol were more readily available in remote parts of Australia that Aboriginal alcohol use would multiply above non-Aboriginal numbers........... this suggestion is racist. I also get livid at suggestions that Aboriginal people can't handle their alcohol like 'white' people. There is NO evidence to prove this. I know that this has not been suggested, but I though I would get in before someone tried to bring that 'chestnut' up.
BsA is correct with his figures, but the thing which influences non-Indigenous thinking is that more of these Aboriginal people who do drink, do so to dangerous levels. This is a national problem and it's a problem which was introduced to Aboriginal people.
Originally posted by Santos L Helper
I find it entirely abhorrent and racist to suggest that if alcohol were more readily available in remote parts of Australia that Aboriginal alcohol use would multiply above non-Aboriginal numbers........... this suggestion is racist. I also get livid at suggestions that Aboriginal people can't handle their alcohol like 'white' people. There is NO evidence to prove this. I know that this has not been suggested, but I though I would get in before someone tried to bring that 'chestnut' up.
BsA is correct with his figures, but the thing which influences non-Indigenous thinking is that more of these Aboriginal people who do drink, do so to dangerous levels. This is a national problem and it's a problem which was introduced to Aboriginal people.
And why do you think the booze was banned? - their own decision BTW. Wouldn't you think if it was available that some would avail themselves of it thus increasing the figures?
Also, might I ask where you live and what contact you have with aboriginals? You'll find that those that live in the community have a different view to those that read about it.
Santos L Helper
13 Apr 2002, 15:30
Originally posted by Fred
And why do you think the booze was banned? - their own decision BTW. Wouldn't you think if it was available that some would avail themselves of it thus increasing the figures?
Also, might I ask where you live and what contact you have with aboriginals? You'll find that those that live in the community have a different view to those that read about it.
I know the booze is banned by the Aboriginal people, it tends to help any of them who may have problems with alcohol. I agree that some may avail themselves of it, but the suggestion seemd to be that it would very quickly see all Aboriginal people become hopeless drunks.
I agree that those who live in communities with Aboriginal people see things differently. Those of us who 'read about it' because of our living needs/arrangements tend to read information based on fact and make opinions on this, rather than basing opinions on what we believe is happening without looking deeper.
So those that actually see it happening are wrong?
Originally posted by Fred
So those that actually see it happening are wrong?
All those years and you only realise that now Fred ;)
Originally posted by Frodo
All those years and you only realise that now Fred ;)
Bugger! Now I've got to start all over again.
Originally posted by CJH
This was the opening text in a thread started on the General Talk board last Tuesday, 9th of April. This thread was removed which resulted in a a lively discussion taking place on the moderators boartd.
Now we throw the question to you.
Is this quoted remark racist?
That post by thebutcher is clearly racist, lock him up and throw away the key.
Santos L Helper
14 Apr 2002, 22:49
Originally posted by Fred
So those that actually see it happening are wrong?
No Fred. While you're busy trivialising an issue I feel strongly about I'll point out that i'm not saying you're wrong. What you are doing is ignoring proven facts and making huge generalisations about a race on what you see in your town. I still think that if you bothered to look deeper than any long held biases you may see things differently.
I guess I could use your argument and say that anyone who has researched into the problems of acceptance, citizenship rights, health problems, denial of democratic processes (for many years) and education issues are all wrong too. Perhaps they should give you a call and you can tell them what you see from your front yard and tell them that the Aboriginal people have caused all of their own problems and are their own worst enemy?
ps. I am not trying to put your point of view down completely although it appears that way. I truly doattempt to understand why you have your view, as I've heard it many times before, but I just feel strongly about this and it's hard to disagree on this and not give a polar opposite. There's no grey area on this issue I believe.
Originally posted by Santos L Helper
No Fred. While you're busy trivialising an issue I feel strongly about I'll point out that i'm not saying you're wrong. What you are doing is ignoring proven facts and making huge generalisations about a race on what you see in your town. I still think that if you bothered to look deeper than any long held biases you may see things differently.
I guess I could use your argument and say that anyone who has researched into the problems of acceptance, citizenship rights, health problems, denial of democratic processes (for many years) and education issues are all wrong too. Perhaps they should give you a call and you can tell them what you see from your front yard and tell them that the Aboriginal people have caused all of their own problems and are their own worst enemy?
ps. I am not trying to put your point of view down completely although it appears that way. I truly doattempt to understand why you have your view, as I've heard it many times before, but I just feel strongly about this and it's hard to disagree on this and not give a polar opposite. There's no grey area on this issue I believe.
I thought I'd said it here but it appears it was on another thread. The things I am saying are about what I know in my area. Nowhere have I extrapolated this to all aboriginals in all areas.
As for your "busy trivialising an issue" that's not worth a comment, as is your claim I have "long held biases". How the hell would you know?
Your whole argument seems to be based on what you have read. My argument is based on what I've seen. You seem to be saying that you have your views on this topic and nothing will change them. Anybody with a contrary view must be biased.
You can remain in your world where if the academics say if it doesn't happen then it sure as hell doesn't happen. I'll continue to deal with the issue in the real world - without blinkers, bias or stereotyping - just as I see it.
Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
I would actually liike to see some stats from Public Housing Authorities on how many tenants do smash up their houses and how many of these people are Aborigines.
Could be interesting reading.
cheers
I think you'll find that the majority of rented Aboriginal houses are owned by Co-ops and therefore don't come under the Public Housing Authority umbrella. The chance of getting accurate stats wouldn't be high as there wouldn't be a need to publish them.
Santos L Helper
15 Apr 2002, 10:16
Originally posted by Fred
I thought I'd said it here but it appears it was on another thread. The things I am saying are about what I know in my area. Nowhere have I extrapolated this to all aboriginals in all areas.
As for your "busy trivialising an issue" that's not worth a comment, as is your claim I have "long held biases". How the hell would you know?
Your whole argument seems to be based on what you have read. My argument is based on what I've seen. You seem to be saying that you have your views on this topic and nothing will change them. Anybody with a contrary view must be biased.
You can remain in your world where if the academics say if it doesn't happen then it sure as hell doesn't happen. I'll continue to deal with the issue in the real world - without blinkers, bias or stereotyping - just as I see it.
You and Frodo trivialised my response. There is no denying that by using the 'wink smilie' you have responded by making light of a response.
How on earth can you say your neutral? It's impossible to be neutral on this, or pretty much any issue. You say you base your views on what you've seen therefore it will give you some bias on the issue. It's common sense and everybody has them. I am biased, but at least I can acknowledge that.
My view on Aboriginal people will not be changed by the 'I know what I've seen' argument, that is true.
Your last comment is a strange one because I believe you do look at
I don't know what it is you think the 'academics' say is not hapening? Most of the information i've seen acknowledges that there are problems in rural areas between cultures. What point are you trying to make here?
Warning - the following is politically incorrect and in some peoples eyes, probably racist.
The point I am making, in a nutshell, is that the incidences of drinking problems, spouse abuse, crime, housing damage etc., is higher than the overall community average in my area.
Come up here and talk to them yourself.
Does it disturb me? Most certainly it does. I feel especially sorry for the kids. They learn a "welfare mentality" from an early age and expect that the State will provide anything that they want. There are, naturally, quite a few that are not caught up in the trap, but very many are. The number of aboriginal kids roaming the streets at 3am is higher than their proportion should be.
One particular hotel has alcohol sales (take-away) far higher than the size of the hotel would suggest. Why? - because they are "open" earlier than the others.
Don't blind yourself to the problems. They are real and not in proportion to the population. So, relating this back to the original topic, is it racist to acknowledge this? In my opinion, it needs to be acknowledged before we can move on to finding a solution.
The aboriginal community have a wonderful culture and history that we could all learn from. Sure, most, if not all, can be traced back to colonisation and the injustices done since. Knowing that though won't fix things now. No amount of Sorries will magically change things.
We, as in the WHOLE community, need to do something and a head in the sand attitude won't help. What to do though is well beyond my capability.
That is the point I'm making. If that makes me a racist or a bigot or any of the other labels that seem popular today, then so be it.
And BTW I haven't used a smilie.
dreamkillers
16 Apr 2002, 01:30
Interesting thread and views from both sides......
I thought for interest sake I would put a link (it's too big to paste on Bigfooty.com) in for a speech made by John Ah Kit MLA - Minister assisting the Chief Minister on Indigenous Affairs - on the 7th March this year about similar issues up here in the NT.
He was criticised and praised by many senior aboriginals throughout the country as he is saying they must stand up and get out of the 'Social Security - give us money' attitude that is prevalant throughout the aboriginal society in our country. At least with his background the 'goody-two shoes' in this country couldn't accuse him of being racist - although he was accused of this by some of his own people. This came mainly from those high up in aboriginal organisations that ride the gravy train and do little to help their own people besides continuing to ask for more money and doing nothing with it to solve anything.
It will be interesting to see what develops from this in associated policies and how the various aboriginal organisations in the NT (and around the country) respond to help turn around the death of the oldest culture in our country.
I'll be interested in hearing people's thought's on the speech and some of his suggested initiatives on what needs to be done to start turning things around.
Anyway you can access the speech at the following link:-
Minister assisting the Chief Minister on Indigenous Affairs, John Ah Kit MLA - I am not the first Aboriginal minister in a parliament ......... (http://www.nt.gov.au/ocm/speeches/20020305_ahkit_aboriginal.shtml)
Bloodstained Angel
16 Apr 2002, 08:07
Hes not the only one
Noel Pearson, Gatjil Duhkurra, Geoff Clark, Aden Ridgeway and a few other of the more thoughtful Aboriginals in positions of power have all come out and said exactly the same thing.
The way forward is not through yet more welfare handouts.
The way forward is through individual communities and the individuals in them taking responsibility and control over their own lives.
cheers
TheMase
16 Apr 2002, 13:32
Originally posted by CJH
This was the opening text in a thread started on the General Talk board last Tuesday, 9th of April. This thread was removed which resulted in a a lively discussion taking place on the moderators boartd.
Now we throw the question to you.
Is this quoted remark racist?
It is considered racist because it is against the aboriginal people.
If I was to say, Australians, there are some great people, but some of them are pricks and pigs.
Now would anyone consider me being racist?
No, they would consider me using a generalisation.
Me saying that is no different to what was said above.
Its like saying for myself. I have met a lot of aboriginals in my time. Unfortunately for me, many of them have not been 'nice' people, and I have had not had the best experience with them. But this is not to say there are great aboriginal people, I have met some of these people, and they can be inspirational.
Its just a generalisation or a stereotype of what a person has seen.
Racism to me is some insult or action to do with a persons, colour, race or sex.
In this instance, they are saying some are nice and some are not. More of a statement or generalisation than a racist comment.
Originally posted by chicken minute
Yes, maybe a huge proportion of aboriginals have a drink problem, Yes, maybe a huge proportion of aboriginals have a problem with petty crimes. Or yes, there is a huge proportion of aboriginal people on welfare. The reasons for these are long and complex and solutions are just not simple, so it's just easier to say that these problems exist because they are aboriginal. Well so what?
Really unless race is an actual issue within any statement, then said statement should not include mention of race, as to do so is to support further misconcenception.
I think you have made a post that a lot of people would find to be racist.........certainly as racist as the original quote by CJH.
But is there any malice in your post? Any intent to 'put down' a race? I think not. It doesn't matter about the 'put down' name of 'racist', it's what YOU believe that matters. And hust as I don't think you have ill feeling towards aboriginals neither do I think TheMase has. You are just honest people prepared to put forward your thoughts and risking the ire of those that choose to look for 'put down' opportunities. Keep it up, truth and love are the cornerstones of humanity.