View Full Version : Shades of 89'
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 13:20
This season reminds me very much of 1989. In the first 7 or 8 rounds we lost a couple of close games that we should have won (kangaroos & fitzroy) and smashed a couple of sides (carlton & west coast) before losing to the eventual premiers Hawthorn after leading by 9 goals.
We then went on a goal scoring spree against St Kilda, Richmond and Brisbane with 3 key forwards in Exell, G Ablett and Brownless dominating.
Hopefully we can go 1 better.
CatmanForever
14 May 2007, 13:42
we can only hope mate
year of the cat
14 May 2007, 13:46
The big difference is that we have a stronger backline than 89. Darcy and Schultz were a liability that year. Scarlett and Egan/Harley is a lot stronger.
Our midfield is different. The 89 midfield was more brilliant with Hocking, Couch and Bairstow but were exposed when heavily tagged. The 2007 midfield of Bartel, Corey, Ling, G.Ablett jnr is more "blue collar" and needs to work hard consistently to have an impact.
The forward line of 89 was exceptional. G.Ablett, Stoneham and Brownless would be a fair way ahead of the 2007 one.
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 13:49
In 89 we had 21-25 year olds who had break out seasons (couch,bairstow,ablett,ghocking)
Bartel, G Ablett, Mooney & Chapman are heading the same way.
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 13:51
The big difference is that we have a stronger backline than 89. Darcy and Schultz were a liability that year. Scarlett and Egan/Harley is a lot stronger.
Our midfield is different. The 89 midfield was more brilliant with Hocking, Couch and Bairstow but were exposed when heavily tagged. The 2007 midfield of Bartel, Corey, Ling, G.Ablett jnr is more "blue collar" and needs to work hard consistently to have an impact.
The forward line of 89 was exceptional. G.Ablett, Stoneham and Brownless would be a fair way ahead of the 2007 one.
Mooney & N Ablett are as good as Stoneham and Brownless were in 1989.
It was Exell and G ABlett who both dominated with 90 odd goals each.
catters05
14 May 2007, 13:52
Mooney & N Ablett are as good as Stoneham and Brownless were in 1989.
No way.
TheTimeCometh
14 May 2007, 14:05
didn't darcy make the vic team that year?
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 14:16
No way.
From memory Stonehmam kicked under 20 goals from centre half forward for the year, in a team that probably kicked over 500. Mooney now is better than Stoneham ever was. Brownless was very much a fringe player in 89, starting on the bench most weeks and getting a run when Bourke came off for a rest.
dharma bum
14 May 2007, 16:21
Mooney now is better than Stoneham ever was
Wishful thinking at best.
Lunchlady Doris
14 May 2007, 16:28
Mooney now is better than Stoneham ever was.
Not sure I can agree with that one
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 16:37
Barry Stoneham has been the most overrated cats player in my lifetime. Even before his injury he wasn't anywhere near the player the media made him out to be. Never fired in big games and never got a kick against the quality centre half backs and after the injury he was a passenger of the highest order.
From memory Stonehmam kicked under 20 goals from centre half forward for the year, in a team that probably kicked over 500. Mooney now is better than Stoneham ever was. Brownless was very much a fringe player in 89, starting on the bench most weeks and getting a run when Bourke came off for a rest.
The structure that year was Bourke starting in the ruck, Stoneham at CHF and Billy on the pine. At the 20 minute mark, Billy would go to CHF, Bourke to the pine and Stoneham into the ruck....Mind you can't for the life of me recall what Flanagan's role was???
I do recall he was our second best player in the GF behind you know who.
FWIW, I also disagree with your comments, particularly surround ing Stoneham. He was a wonderful player in his prime, athletic, a beautiful mark and kick and a regular in state teams. Better than either Mooney or N Ablett at this stage of their careers.
grantyc77
14 May 2007, 16:46
Before Stoneham broke his leg, he was awesome, never the same after that, so i dont agree about the statment is bout that. The game has changed that much is 18 yrs (I cant believe its been that long) Its totally different now days, its hard to compare
I loved the 89 side but on potential im sticking with this one, we havent seen there best yet. And i for one cant wait til we do.
Alchera
14 May 2007, 16:47
Barry Stoneham has been the most overrated cats player in my lifetime. Even before his injury he wasn't anywhere near the player the media made him out to be. Never fired in big games and never got a kick against the quality centre half backs and after the injury he was a passenger of the highest order.
Agree with the post injury analysis, not the before though.
As a young CHF he did some good things and was becoming more consistent with every game. If he had not been cut down by that injury, I believe he would have been up there as one of the better CHF's during that period of time.
His lack of goals was not a concern as we had plenty of other avenues, his ability to lead up the ground and if not hold on to it, at least bring it down to the advantage of our small players was his best asset at the time.
thejester
14 May 2007, 16:48
This debate on Stoneham and Mooney is irrelevant anyway - even if Mooney is twice the player Stoneham was, it hardly changes the fact that combined Nath and Tomahawk are 1/10th as a good (at the moment) as God. I think people get carried away with our forward line - Hawkins is the biggest downhill skier in the team, while Nath often spills easy marks and has also struggled in pressure games (though was very impressed with him against the Eagles). I'm not doubting their talent, but they're both very young and in a lot of games it's only been Mooney who has really been consistant. Even then, I think he's better used up the ground, and did a helluva lot more yesterday running all over the place than he did just sitting forward.
Jack-Packenham
14 May 2007, 16:58
The structure that year was Bourke starting in the ruck, Stoneham at CHF and Billy on the pine. At the 20 minute mark, Billy would go to CHF, Bourke to the pine and Stoneham into the ruck....Mind you can't for the life of me recall what Flanagan's role was???
Flanigan became a part of the side when Exell was left out and Brownless played as a permanent forward after the first final.
Flanigan became a part of the side when Exell was left out and Brownless played as a permanent forward after the first final.
Thanks:thumbsu:
Hard to believe 18 years have passed. They were halcion days. The old man taking me along to suburban footy grounds every week, from Moorabin to the Whitten Oval...A forward line of Ablett, Stoneham, Excell, Brownless, David Cameron, Shane Hamilton...The presiden (Bruce Lindner) streaming off a back flank and one of the best on ball divisions going around. Watching the cats kick massive scores week in week out...with the only apparent strategy being to kick more than the opposition.
That finals series will stay with me forever...Pure excitement!
I'm tipping none of us would have thought 18 years down the track we would still be waiting for that elusive flag ... Mind you, that's probably what they thought after 63!
CatmanForever
14 May 2007, 17:16
Barry Stoneham has been the most overrated cats player in my lifetime. Even before his injury he wasn't anywhere near the player the media made him out to be. Never fired in big games and never got a kick against the quality centre half backs and after the injury he was a passenger of the highest order.
I remember a game we played the Saints in a finals game back when Plugger was a Saint and Stoneham tore them up. He was BOG at CHF....Blight sent him to CHB and he ripped them a new one down there too. The commentators on the radio kept saying it's Stoneham everywhere such was his dominance. So to say he never performed in big games is crap.
kickingoals
14 May 2007, 17:32
funny how differant people see things hey ? too say mooney is better than stonham was, is way off the mark , barry was becoming one of the elite players when he broke his leg and never recaptured that form again and was a shadow of himself after that ...
i recall the finals series of 1989 he made state centre half forward that year too i think , but against essendon at waverley he played a great game made the bombers defenders, daniher and co look second rate ...
mooney still lets his ego get involved to much and still does the stupid things on the ground (like sunday again) , his marking could be improved too , he is improving and does have that edge too him that a team needs too win a flag , a bit of mungrel !!!!!!!
nananana catman
14 May 2007, 17:39
Mooney is yet to have one consistent season, if I recall Stoneham was an AA one year, (might be wrong).
Mooney has a long way to go.
darren forssman
14 May 2007, 18:43
Mooney is yet to have one consistent season, if I recall Stoneham was an AA one year, (might be wrong).
Mooney has a long way to go.
different players as well...stoneham was the more link to the forward line in the vein of reidwoldt whereas mooney plays more in the F50. but thats just the way i see it.
WE Are Geelong
14 May 2007, 19:04
This season reminds me very much of 1989. In the first 7 or 8 rounds we lost a couple of close games that we should have won (kangaroos & fitzroy) and smashed a couple of sides (carlton & west coast) before losing to the eventual premiers Hawthorn after leading by 9 goals.
We then went on a goal scoring spree against St Kilda, Richmond and Brisbane with 3 key forwards in Exell, G Ablett and Brownless dominating.
Hopefully we can go 1 better.
I posted something similar last week Jack..totally agree. Lost some tight games in 89 similarly then had some blow out victories against ordinary opposition in the first 6 rounds then about the same time of the season as now really got rolling against quality opposition.
Some good signs against West Coast the guys might be on this year. Fingers crossed of course.
geelong_boy
14 May 2007, 19:07
Barry Stoneham has been the most overrated cats player in my lifetime. Even before his injury he wasn't anywhere near the player the media made him out to be. Never fired in big games and never got a kick against the quality centre half backs and after the injury he was a passenger of the highest order.
Gotta disagree with you there, Jack.
In 1993, from about mid-season onwards, Stoneham was our best and most important player. In the middle of the year, we played a game at KP in the wet against the Dogs. We won comfortably, Stoneham was BOG at CHF but unfortunately he got rubbed out for 3 matches for either striking or kneeing. It was just as the team was building for a run at the finals after an inconsistent start to the year.
Without Stoneham, we lost the next two but managed to win a close one against Collingwood at Waverley. Then, for the next four games, Bazza played the best games I've ever seen him play for the GFC, except maybe against Essendon in the penultimate round. But in the rest he starred, kicked about four each week and was either BOG or close to. In the end we just missed out on the finals.
He had an injury interrupted start to '94, and again seemed as if he was building as the season went on. I thought if he could recapture that late '93 form we were a chance for the flag, but then he broke his leg late in the year.
He was never the same player again, had complications in the comeback (eg Nathan Brown), yet we played in two losing GFs without him. If only..
Catsace
14 May 2007, 20:35
I was saying that Geelong looked like '88 in the sense of having a strong core of players under 25, and the way they turned it on in the last two weeks suggests that it's an attitude thing that's switched in the club's thinking.
Maybe losing to the Kangaroos at home has made the players think really hard about wasting chances, and sertainly the list we have is strong enough to make a real fist of things in the next few years. Maybe with Bomber also, perhaps he does read these threads, but allowing Geelong to play a style of footy that suits their talents best is the way to go. The AFL has has 3-4 years of Adelaide/Sudney/Eagles type close checking, chipping and accountability, maybe it's time Geelong can try for a higher scoring, more direct route to success.
Certainly G.Ablett Sr's presence in the late 80's makes comparisons like Bradman in the 30's and 40's. But with his sons doing well, Bartel really stepping up, Ling back to what he does best (A role that the late 80's Cats had no real equivalent) plus Scarlo, Egan and Milburn in a solid backline, we can do it. We have the talent, if the players have the drive and mental strength, we can go all the way this year!!
eminbee
15 May 2007, 01:23
I agree on big Barry (if there's any point to comparing different eras). I recall a night game at the WACA in about 1993 (was it Round 22 and we had to win - we did, and hope that Collingwood won or lost as the case was, so that we could sneak into the 'six') when Barry played on Glen Jakovich (who it will be recalled rarely lowered his colours including to Carey). The further it went the further Barry left Jako in his wake. There was a goal early in the last where from true CHF, Barry entered the square on a bounce-down (from a Geelong goal), took possession and wheeled with Jako in his wake and slotted it for the immediate follow-up and game-breaker. Sublime. That was also the night (was it McIntosh or Brennan?) put Gary snr into a goal post at pretty much top speed.
Mooney_d'King
15 May 2007, 10:44
We should all be encouraged by a very good sign. Jack is actually sounding OPTIMISTIC!!!
Let's hope the end of '89 doesn't repeat itself...
darren forssman
15 May 2007, 10:47
straight outta boggy creek paul couch won the brownlow.
straight outta bell park jimmy bartel wins the brownlow.
Jack-Packenham
15 May 2007, 10:54
We should all be encouraged by a very good sign. Jack is actually sounding OPTIMISTIC!!!
Let's hope the end of '89 doesn't repeat itself...
Eventually they have made some tough (easy for me) decisions on players like Gardiner, Byrnes, Playfair, J Hunt, King etc who were never going to win us anything. Now with the proper side being picked each week its all good times ahead. Look out when Prismall, Chapman, Harley and Rooke get in.
geelong_boy
15 May 2007, 13:59
I agree on big Barry (if there's any point to comparing different eras). I recall a night game at the WACA in about 1993 (was it Round 22 and we had to win - we did, and hope that Collingwood won or lost as the case was, so that we could sneak into the 'six') when Barry played on Glen Jakovich (who it will be recalled rarely lowered his colours including to Carey). The further it went the further Barry left Jako in his wake. There was a goal early in the last where from true CHF, Barry entered the square on a bounce-down (from a Geelong goal), took possession and wheeled with Jako in his wake and slotted it for the immediate follow-up and game-breaker. Sublime. That was also the night (was it McIntosh or Brennan?) put Gary snr into a goal post at pretty much top speed.
Yep, that was #26 at his best.
Ramsay Bogunovich
15 May 2007, 14:44
I agree on big Barry (if there's any point to comparing different eras). I recall a night game at the WACA in about 1993 (was it Round 22 and we had to win - we did, and hope that Collingwood won or lost as the case was, so that we could sneak into the 'six') when Barry played on Glen Jakovich (who it will be recalled rarely lowered his colours including to Carey). The further it went the further Barry left Jako in his wake. There was a goal early in the last where from true CHF, Barry entered the square on a bounce-down (from a Geelong goal), took possession and wheeled with Jako in his wake and slotted it for the immediate follow-up and game-breaker. Sublime. That was also the night (was it McIntosh or Brennan?) put Gary snr into a goal post at pretty much top speed.
Great recollection - the Catters were on fire, having knocked off all the Premiership contenders in a run of about 6-7 weeks. Collingwood had to beat Adelaide at Footy Park to get us in the finals (but lost, of course). That game v West Coast (Rd.24 actually as uneven number of teams) was a pearler and Bazza was BOG. Gazza kicked 5.5 from memory on Brennan. Blight and co. stood on a table because the coaches box was unsuitable.
Very satisfying victory - I despise West Coast.
Hood007
15 May 2007, 14:54
We have a similiar run in the next 6 weeks that the '93 side did at the end of the year. That team then went on to play in the next 2 Grand Finals.
Interesting...
We have a similiar run in the next 6 weeks that the '93 side did at the end of the year. That team then went on to play in the next 2 Grand Finals.
Interesting...
Just regarding my memories of Stoneham:
Definite dork when out of his guernsey.
Probably still a bit dorky but age has refined him a tad.
Solid performer for Cats throughout most of his career, but no more than that.
Then something happened. It seemed like he toughened up overnight . All of a sudden he had a real presence on the field of play. His team mates looked up to him and opposition coaches feared his influence on a game. There is no doubt that immediately before his injury he was considered to be in the top HANDFUL of players in the League at that time. Never mind my Cat biased opinion, equivalent statements to this were made on numerous occasions by opposition players and Clubs and by a large percentage of media "experts". One such example was Derm the germ!
peter_ford
16 May 2007, 01:55
who do you guys think is tougher, mooney or mark yates?
Why all the remeniscing about '89?? I won't be happy until I see "shades of '63" ;)
who do you guys think is tougher, mooney or mark yates?
Mooney by a country mile.
Yeatseys five mins of fame was a premeditated action on behalf of his coach/team. He always was a great team man.
Mooney, however is one crazy dude. Lets face it, as much as we love to see him in the hoops how many of us actually expect him to complete the season without being reported?
patdman
16 May 2007, 10:51
I think people get carried away with our forward line -
Maybe but it is one of the better in the competition. Other teams may have a better forward but overall it is pretty special. Add SJ in there and Stokes/Ablett/Chapman having a rest up forward and it is VERY good.
Hawkins is the biggest downhill skier in the team lol he is a first year player who has played what, 6-7 games. Give the guy a break, he has no right to tear games apart and has even less right to kick a few 4 goals hauls in his first season, regardless of whether it was when we are going well. He has commanded a lot of respect from opposition coaches and players and done a few very clever things that stats will not show (his handball in the last quarter to give Vercoe his goal was lovely). Downhill skier would be fine if he was a 3-4 year player and only playing well in easy wins but he is a 6-7 game player, get your hand of it.
while Nath often spills easy marks and has also struggled in pressure games (though was very impressed with him against the Eagles). Actually his two biggest pressure game have come against WC and he excelled in both of them. He does spill some easy marks maybe 2-4 a game TOPS and even then 75% he gets his own crumbs and kicks a goal so who cares. Then he takes some absolute rippers that most other forwards would love to take. This kid is better than KK and he is still really a pup.
thejester
16 May 2007, 12:27
Maybe but it is one of the better in the competition. Other teams may have a better forward but overall it is pretty special. Add SJ in there and Stokes/Ablett/Chapman having a rest up forward and it is VERY good.
I'd argue that it's hard to match up on, though I wouldn't particularly argue that it is the small forwards that add the potancy.
lol he is a first year player who has played what, 6-7 games. Give the guy a break, he has no right to tear games apart and has even less right to kick a few 4 goals hauls in his first season, regardless of whether it was when we are going well. He has commanded a lot of respect from opposition coaches and players and done a few very clever things that stats will not show (his handball in the last quarter to give Vercoe his goal was lovely). Downhill skier would be fine if he was a 3-4 year player and only playing well in easy wins but he is a 6-7 game player, get your hand of it.
How does this contradict anything I've said? You're exactly right - he's a first year player who has no right to tear games apart. So why did we keep acting like he has and will in the near future? Every bag he's kicked has been in games where we've beaten the opposition to a bloody pulp. In other games he's gone virtually unsighted. I'd love for him to break the mould against Freo, but on current evidence Hawkins won't do much unless Geelong dominates the game early.
Actually his two biggest pressure game have come against WC and he excelled in both of them. He does spill some easy marks maybe 2-4 a game TOPS and even then 75% he gets his own crumbs and kicks a goal so who cares. Then he takes some absolute rippers that most other forwards would love to take. This kid is better than KK and he is still really a pup.
That's a lot of marks to spill given that he only took 5 on Sunday - and he took one absolute ripper. As for being better than KK...a backhanded compliment if ever there was one. ;)
As far as I'm concerned everything you said backs up my main point - it's a young forward line that hasn't shown it's ability to impose itself on a game yet. It is good and it will become very good, perhaps even by the end of the season, but on current form I don't think it can be described as 'potent'.
I grew up near Kardinia Park, and used to walk down Noble Street where Barry Stoneham still lived his folks. I used to see him all the time running around Newtown with his sister, who was very, very tidy.
A lost some respect for Barry though when he collected that young player with his elbow at KP. I forget the guys name, but it was ugly and reckless.