View Full Version : Have you ever noticed how...
when Adelaide players take a set shot on goal they do some stupid "run up" even though they may only be 30m out and then usually spray the shot because they get off balance in the "run up"? Ive seen numerous shots like this sprayed for a point or even OOF!
This has been annoying me for years as i watch every crows game that i can.
I don't understand why they don't just take a steady "walk up" and most likely kick straight through the middle. Obviously if they a long way out its fine because they are trying to get more distance.
Its so simple (and stupid) but nothing ever seems to be done about it? I try to post this in suggestions on the official crows website but it never seems to work/register my comment.
I'm aware that players want to keep the natural action they already have but if things ain't working... change is required. So many times i see the mighty crows kill teams in defence and midfield only to continuously waste F50 entries and hand confidence and momentum to the opposition whilst demoralizing our backline.
I do think our forwards usually cop a raw deal and then gimmes to make up for it but we wont get into the crap umpiring, as i see theres already about 50 threads for that - NO SUPRISES THERE they are treated as infallible gods!
So anyone agree with me on the run up issue? If you haven't noticed this watch closely in upcoming games - im sure this wont just disappear although i wish it would! Sorry if this has already been discussed in a thread but i searched and didn't see any.
Vic Crow
17 May 2007, 12:42
I keep forgetting to make comment on Welsh's little tribute to Trent Hentschel when he's lining up for goals these days.
Kick it to me
I think players sometimes focus on how they will drop the ball and how they are running to actually focus on where the ball has to go
Brad Hardie has a theory that the position of the hands on the ball dictates the ''swing'' it takes ie left hand high right hand low will push the ball one way and vice versa
I am a huge believer that you pick a spot or crowd member to kick it to and aim for them , relax as if its a kick end to end and be natural, a player will hit a player on the chest 95% of the time anywhere on the ground yet cant get that same accuracy aiming for a space 7m wide
Arguably the best kick we ever had for goal from a set shot was D. Jarman.
He was also a great user of the running set shot.
Another great advocate (and a pretty reasonably kick himself) was one M. Blight.
There's 2 pretty good arguments that it works - in the right hands.
NikkiNoo
17 May 2007, 13:25
It's not just the crows that have accuracy issues in front of goal - Matthew Richardson anyone?
This is often bandied about by commentators that for everything else that has improved in the game over the years goal kicking accuracy is still something that has not improved.
Welshy has always had that little run up, as has been mentioned before Hentschel has also had that strange little run up. He has amended it slightly in that he used to also head to the left a little bit but has straightened it up so that he can't be called play on when trying for a set shot. I understand that they have had D Jarman working with certain players to improve their accuracy. (note that these stats are from 2000 onwards)
Hentschel goals 83 points 49 - 62% accuracy
Bock - 33-27 - 55% accuracy
Perrie - 122-100 - 54% accuracy
McGregor - 87-67 - 56% accuracy
Welsh - 235-129 - 64% accuracy
Compare those with the players on our list that you could say have very good smooth technique
Roo 188-120 - 61%
Edwards - 114-74 - 60%
Thompson - 73-40 - 64%
Goodwin - 101-87 - 53%
McLeod - 143-108 - 56%
I also had a quick look at Richardson and also Lloyd's accuracy. Richo has a 57% accuracy rate and Lloyd surprisingly only 61%.
CarnCrows
17 May 2007, 13:35
I keep forgetting to make comment on Welsh's little tribute to Trent Hentschel when he's lining up for goals these days.
Very true :D , walk hop skip walk skip hop skip skip jog kick.
So anyone agree with me on the run up issue? If you haven't noticed this watch closely in upcoming games - im sure this wont just disappear although i wish it would! Sorry if this has already been discussed in a thread but i searched and didn't see any.
The reason I was always told to 'run' when you kick is so you dont lean back. When someone walks or stands still to kick it there is a tendancy to lean back, which can result in spraying the ball more (more height to drop the ball, head not over the ball etc). When you run you have more forward motion, which stops the leaning back. In addition you should get more penetration from the kick. Cmon get up and try it!:) .
Another theory of kicking the ball which relates to running and kicking is which foot you land on. Some players (I believe Blighty is one) kicked and landed on the same foot. This action forces you to kick through the ball. Players tend to land on the same foot when they are not following through.
Then again could all be a pile of crap:p
Hentschel goals 83 points 49 - 62% accuracy
Bock - 33-27 - 55% accuracy
Perrie - 122-100 - 54% accuracy
McGregor - 87-67 - 56% accuracy
Welsh - 235-129 - 64% accuracy
Compare those with the players on our list that you could say have very good smooth technique
Roo 188-120 - 61%
Edwards - 114-74 - 60%
Thompson - 73-40 - 64%
Goodwin - 101-87 - 53%
McLeod - 143-108 - 56%
Are we comparing apples with oranges though?
The first group are largely KPP forwards. As such, a high percentage of their shots on goal are "set shots". In comparison, the second group are all midfielders who have taken most of their shots from "general play".
Players actions when kicking on the run are far different to those when taking a set shot on goal.
Are these figures the total scoring output of these players, or merely the result of their set shots on goal?
TheLeftFist8
17 May 2007, 14:26
Hentschel goals 83 points 49 - 62% accuracy
Bock - 33-27 - 55% accuracy
Perrie - 122-100 - 54% accuracy
McGregor - 87-67 - 56% accuracy
Welsh - 235-129 - 64% accuracy
Compare those with the players on our list that you could say have very good smooth technique
Roo 188-120 - 61%
Edwards - 114-74 - 60%
Thompson - 73-40 - 64%
Goodwin - 101-87 - 53%
McLeod - 143-108 - 56%
I also had a quick look at Richardson and also Lloyd's accuracy. Richo has a 57% accuracy rate and Lloyd surprisingly only 61%.
Agree with Vader that it's difficult to compare KPP's to running players, unless this is 'set shot only' stats.
Most interesting point for me was the comparison between the much maligned Ian Perrie and the more highly favoured (in some circles) McGregor and Bock (with regard to goalkicking).
Maybe all three of them should incorporate the Hentschel/Welsh shuffle:rolleyes:
NikkiNoo
17 May 2007, 14:33
Are we comparing apples with oranges though?
The first group are largely KPP forwards. As such, a high percentage of their shots on goal are "set shots". In comparison, the second group are all midfielders who have taken most of their shots from "general play".
Players actions when kicking on the run are far different to those when taking a set shot on goal.
Are these figures the total scoring output of these players, or merely the result of their set shots on goal?
I understand your point and in a way agree with it to an extent.
My main reason for putting that second group up is that sometimes it is recommended that the set shot action should replicate the natural kicking action, hence why some players have a very long run up. We could probably guess that the majority of the second groups kick on goals would be on the run but now that group are starting to play up forward for little cameos. It's hard without knowing where the shots have come from to get a really accurate picture.
betterthanu
17 May 2007, 14:38
I am a huge believer that you pick a spot or crowd member to kick it to and aim for them , relax as if its a kick end to end and be natural, a player will hit a player on the chest 95% of the time anywhere on the ground yet cant get that same accuracy aiming for a space 7m wide
Tony lockett special. All the best full forwards ive ever heard give advice have said this. Lockett did a thing for a video where he aimed for a camera behind the goals and the ball flew within a meter over it.
PrideOf
17 May 2007, 14:47
Toney lockett special. All the best full forwards ive ever heard give advice have said this. Lockett did a thing for a video where he aimed for a camera behind the goals and the ball flew within a meter over it.
I remember one time big Plugger took a big grab next to the point post at the SCG. The umpire put him back on an angle and the cameraman was sitting right behind him. You could literally hardly see daylight between the sticks but Plugger went back and kicked the goal using a drop punt. No bananas (or checksides as they're called in South Australia), no running around, no kicking over his shoulder. A drop punt. Goal. Simple really.
jenny61_99
17 May 2007, 14:58
This is one of my father-in-laws biggest bug bears.... goal kicking. He will tell you (often!) that in "his" day, they would pick out someone in the crowd and kick it to them. Today he says, the players have no excuse as there are signs in every ground and you should just pick a point on the sign (where you practice the shots at training) and use that as the focal point. The run-ups are funny - I always notice that if Roo DOESN'T have his little skip in his run up, he generally misses but nails em every time when he skips!
SkinFeeling
17 May 2007, 15:04
Welshy has always had that little run up, as has been mentioned before Hentschel has also had that strange little run up.
The commentators on Saturday night were talking about his run up after he kicked his 2nd behind I think it was. I always thought Welshy was the most accurate he's probably ever been in 2002 when Jars was in his 1st year as forwardline coach.
. Lockett did a thing for a video where he aimed for a camera behind the goals and the ball flew within a meter over it.
They said for the Toyota ads that he nailed 5 out of 6 ''takes''
dyertribe
17 May 2007, 17:51
Arguably the best kick we ever had for goal from a set shot was D. Jarman.
He was also a great user of the running set shot.
I disagree somewhat about Fudd from a setshot. Was still highly capable of pushing them wide (rarely hooked) - but yes, on the run he was practically immaculate from anywhere upto 50-55 metres out.
SA_Stazza
17 May 2007, 18:09
when Adelaide players take a set shot on goal they do some stupid "run up" even though they may only be 30m out and then usually spray the shot because they get off balance in the "run up"? Ive seen numerous shots like this sprayed for a point or even OOF!
This has been annoying me for years as i watch every crows game that i can.
I don't understand why they don't just take a steady "walk up" and most likely kick straight through the middle. Obviously if they a long way out its fine because they are trying to get more distance.
Its so simple (and stupid) but nothing ever seems to be done about it? I try to post this in suggestions on the official crows website but it never seems to work/register my comment.
................
So anyone agree with me on the run up issue? If you haven't noticed this watch closely in upcoming games - im sure this wont just disappear although i wish it would! Sorry if this has already been discussed in a thread but i searched and didn't see any.
Well recently when I had the pleasure of joining in on Crows training, I was specifically with the forward group and the one thing that stood out for me was they were all made to repeatedly do this "stupid little run-up" you speak of, and a few of them looked quite uncomfortable doing it - namely Welsh, Bernie, Bock, and Tippett. They were made to do the run up 2 or 3 times and drop the ball near their boot as if they were going to kick it, then they would have their shots the next time round.
I don't know if this is the reason for the jitters but it has crossed my mind when watching games of late and I keep wondering if this has anything to do with their "specialised training" so good pickup Alecks ;)
Carl Spackler
17 May 2007, 19:30
Good pick up. I've noticed the Trent Hentschel 'stutter' method being used by a few players. It seems that they are not too fussed about having a long, smooth, fluid run up but concentrete more on making sure that the last few paces are positive, with all momentum at the target. Anyone done a footy coaching course lately? Is this the new goal kicking theory?
When Terry Jenner is coaching spin bowlers one of his key points is that you don't get any spin from your run up, but you can lose spin if it is too fast, too straight, too angled etc. Often he gets young spinners to just stand at the crease and bowl.
I find goal kicking an interesting topic. You look at players like Richardson, Perrie and Tredrea who struggle from set shots and wonder how they can spend their life practising and show no improvement whereas on the run they are quite competent.
With a set shot you've got time to think about where your hands are, your run up, the drop of the ball, aiming for a target behind the goals, the state of the game etc. Is it a case of paralysis by analysis? Are they worrying about what they should be doing rather than just kicking the ball naturally? These players who have struggled with their goalkicking would probably have had more advice and more coaching to 'help' them too.
Crow-mo
17 May 2007, 19:31
Arguably the best kick we ever had for goal from a set shot was D. Jarman.
He was also a great user of the running set shot.
Another great advocate (and a pretty reasonably kick himself) was one M. Blight.
There's 2 pretty good arguments that it works - in the right hands.
very arguably as all the players and coaches at the time said it was Troy Bond.
RoosterLad
17 May 2007, 19:42
I am very surprised that the Crow forward line coach - who is he? - is teaching them to do this stutter run up, the best kicks for goal i've seen in my years of watching footy never did this.
maccas_no1
17 May 2007, 20:06
It's not just the crows that have accuracy issues in front of goal - Matthew Richardson anyone?
This is often bandied about by commentators that for everything else that has improved in the game over the years goal kicking accuracy is still something that has not improved.
It is often mentioned on Melbourne radio Triple M, Danny Frawley often mentions that Richardson tries very hard but unfortunately just isnt a good natural kick even in general and will struggle even with his kicking in training.
maccas_no1
17 May 2007, 20:09
I am very surprised that the Crow forward line coach - who is he? - is teaching them to do this stutter run up, the best kicks for goal i've seen in my years of watching footy never did this.
Agree, to me it all looks out of rythmn, I mean if a bowler in cricket did there run up to bowl like Welsh, Perrie or Hentschel come into have a set shot at goal Im sure it would effect how they bowl the ball, like it does with Perrie, Welsh and Hentschel's accuracy in front of goal.
Not a permanent forward but Porplyzia is the best shot for goal I have seen at the AFC.
McLeod23
17 May 2007, 21:06
I don't know if D.Jarman was THE best kick for goal we've ever had, but he was bloody good.
Along with his brilliance in the 97 GF, I'll never forget a game I saw live against Melbourne at the MCG in 2000, where we lost and kicked about 12 goals, but D.Jars kicked 9 straight.
Every single one was 'gun-barrel straight'.
Mad Dog
17 May 2007, 21:10
I disagree somewhat about Fudd from a setshot. Was still highly capable of pushing them wide (rarely hooked) - but yes, on the run he was practically immaculate from anywhere upto 50-55 metres out.
particularly on the left......;)
...and agree with you comments on the set shot......normally pushes them out
Crow-mo
17 May 2007, 22:12
Not a permanent forward but Porplyzia is the best shot for goal I have seen at the AFC.
you might want to see about your eyesight :p
is this the same Porplyzia who has scored 2 goals 1 point this season,
or the porplyzia who kicked 10 goals 11 points in 2006?
RoosterLad
17 May 2007, 22:16
How many were set shots out of those stats Crow-mo? I have always thought Porplyzia was a pretty accurate kick for goal, I'm always confident when he marks inside 50. I wouldn't quite say he's the best in the AFC's history though...!
Crow-mo
17 May 2007, 22:57
How many were set shots out of those stats Crow-mo? I have always thought Porplyzia was a pretty accurate kick for goal, I'm always confident when he marks inside 50. I wouldn't quite say he's the best in the AFC's history though...!
not sure, but anyway you cut it - he can't be that great a kick for a set shot, unless he is the worst on the run in history!
usually it's the other way round.
more importantly in 14 games, he's had about 24 shots on goals (12 goals 12pts) which is so few that i doubt anyone really remembers that much about them. I'd guess he jagged a couple under pressure and maybe that sticks in peoples mind.
Markthirtytwo
18 May 2007, 09:24
For mine, Roo is the most accurate in the current side.
Of the past, I reckon Scotty Hodges was the most accurate from a set shot with Mods as the stand out on the run, back to the goals, etc, etc, etc. :)
Wow thanks for all the responses and stats people! I completely agree that d.Jars was our best kick - especially under pressure! I imagine he would have got us across the line against west coast many times - sorry if that brings up painful memories for you, it does for me thats for sure!
Anyways I was only ever going off how i used to kick when I played footy (NOT afl), which was - look at middle of goals, visualising where your gonna kick it (same as pick a person in crowd thing) then step 1, step 2, step 3 and boot ! I think theres a sort of half step in between step 3 and boot. Once i started my "walk in" i was only looking at the footy to make sure i got good contact, not looking at the goals. I dont think i ever sprayed an easy kick off the side of the boot ever! I used to love watching it sail through the middle and many others asked me how i did it, so i told them but it didnt seem to work for them.
I clearly remember our coach at the time telling us not to do the "run up" unless your going for distance or if thats just your style, but hey each to their own i guess.
The only time i missed any goals at all was when it was windy and i had to learn to adjust! Though i realize its different at afl level footy- more running, pressure and fatigue but theres no doubt that a set shot 30m out right in front should be a sitter for any AFL player, even richo! . I think if the run up works for a player thats fine, but if players are being forced to learn this way as stated in a previous post thats just ridiculous and the forward coach should have his head examined.
Now i must go relax and get some sleep, I know its daytime but im a baker and ive gotta start work about an hour after tonights game! Id rather force myself to get sleep now then miss the game! GO THE MIGHTY CROWS!
I disagree somewhat about Fudd from a setshot. Was still highly capable of pushing them wide (rarely hooked) - but yes, on the run he was practically immaculate from anywhere upto 50-55 metres out.
264 goals 115 behinds in his Adelaide career - 70% accuracy.*
That's as good as anyone in the modern era (Lockett 70%, Lloyd 69%, Dunstall 67%, Modra 66%, Ablett 63%).*
Of course, he missed the odd shot - who didn't? - but there's not a clearly better kick for goal in the history of the AFC. Despite what Troy Bond may or may not have done in training. ;)
* disclaimer - these are total and not set shot statistics, but if Fudd or anyone else had a real weakness either on the run of from set shots, they would be down at the Richo level of accuracy.
Crow-mo
18 May 2007, 19:39
not forgetting the 54% career mark with hawthorn?