View Full Version : Disappointed - reality check for the boys
pauljam
20 Apr 2002, 19:08
Well this game really frustrated me. I thought we had a great chance and we certainly started the game and the 3rd quarter with some great play. Unfortunately we left the workload to too few players. At one stage I was reminded of the Judge days when the Dees were running in waves an our players were nowhere to be seen - but the guys fought hard and to the end and I was proud of that - we were outclassed. Melb were better than I thought and deserved their win.
For the first time I thought Woosh and the coaching staff made some pretty obvious mistakes both in the lead up and during the game - in fact a lot of these were raised through the week on this very board!!! :)
These are just comments - I am really happy with the way the coaching staff have got the players to improve their attitude, endeavour and efforts and hindsight is a wonderful thing - just some learnings from the game...
1) McIntosh - why, oh why bring him back if he is not 100% ! Cant remember who wrote it but the comment on Big Footy was something like " He'll probably re - injure the hammy in the 1st qtr, and sit out the rest of the match" - whoever wrote this please tell me the lotto numbers for next week!
In reality he was a risky selection and ending up leaving us one man short for most of the game.
2) Banfield - has been a great servant to the club but is simply not match fit - his confidence is shot as evidenced by a terrible handball under minimal pressure that should have sent us into attack but missed the target by a long way. I think he should be dropped back to WAFL and get some games under his belt, match fitness up and then come back into the side. Woosh has supported him but we cant afford to carry him until he is match fit. Playing him like this will ruin his confidence.
3) Cox - should have played him this week - after an energy sapping game last week where Gardy rucked almost all day he needed some support - Gas was available but he should stay forward, or maybe could have gone back on Neitz when Macca was injured.
4) Wilson - he had a shocker but had absolutely S*it house delivery in the first half. Last week I think he got 3 goals in the last half and is a better option than Embley as a target. In the last qtr when we started to win some ball and deliver it better Embers dropped approx 3 marks that Willo would probably have gobbled up. Judge used to take Willo off the ground too much and I hope this is not going to happen this year. If he's not out there he cant kick em! I like Embers and he will be a good player but is way too inconsistent at this stage.
In summary a frustrating game cos I really thought we could win this one - I expected it as I am sure Woosh did also - cant question the endeavour of most of the players but we still have lots of improvement to go. Having said that there were quite a few positives, Kerr, Roo, Cuz, Judd and a few others had pretty good games and kept trying
Bring on the Lions next week...........I can feel an upset coming on!!!!!!:D :D :D :D
Just a few comments about the points you raised:
1) I think Thrawn666 mentioned that McIntosh might reinjure his hammy... personally i think he jinxed him ;)
2) Banfield is looking very dodgy but once again, why is he playing in defence?? He's always been a midfielder and he has the build to crash packs in the midfield. Either play him there or drop him
3) Leave Cox out, he doesnt have the build to compete yet, bring in Sierra or Tuckey. Preferably Sierra who has a couple of games under his belt and can do the job at CHF or in the ruck
4) I dont think Wilson had a bad day, it was just that generally when we went forward the ball was bombed in, like it used to be before we recruited Scott Cummings. Theyd kick it in (usually under pressure) and hope for the best, thats no way for the forward line to operate. I also hope that Wilson wont be benched because like we saw today, those 3 marks that Embley dropped wouldve been certain goals to Wilson
And finally, did anyone see that clothesline by Taylor?? Gee, reminds me of the days i used to watch WWF.
GoEagles
20 Apr 2002, 20:03
We were only 10 points behind in the 3rd quarter, so the game was definately winable.
* We need someone to replace Taylor from kicking into play from points scored by the opposition. Too many times he turns the ball over.
* The midfield wasn't consistant. Fletcher had a shocker, Cousins was quiet as a mouse up until half time and our delivering into the forward line looked very 2001ish.
* Banfield might benefit if he gets a few WAFL games under his belt - to build up the fitness and confidence before returning to the AFL. I dont think he played any wizard cup games so rushing him straight back into the senior side could of been a mistake.
pauljam
20 Apr 2002, 20:36
Iceman,
Regarding Cox in the side , I meant for this game because Siera apparently pulled up sore this week and Tuckey was on the injury list a test. Either way we need some support for Gardy and I guess in the longer term one of the 3 mentioned should be in the line up to help him out - Tuckey actually did well in the ruck in the wizard cup......
Taylors clothesline was a ripper- WWF special :) BUT jokes aside it was an undisciplined act at a pretty important time in the game. Neitz may have kicked the goal anyway cos he was kicking straight today, but the 50m gave it to him on a platter. I like Taylor cos he goes in hard but he lets himself down by giving away silly frees, 50ms too often.
Also his kickins scare me - Milli was doing well (ie kicking long!) until he was injured but I would have given the ball to Matera instead of Taylor after that!
Originally posted by pauljam
Iceman,
Regarding Cox in the side , I meant for this game because Siera apparently pulled up sore this week and Tuckey was on the injury list a test. Either way we need some support for Gardy and I guess in the longer term one of the 3 mentioned should be in the line up to help him out - Tuckey actually did well in the ruck in the wizard cup......
Taylors clothesline was a ripper- WWF special :) BUT jokes aside it was an undisciplined act at a pretty important time in the game. Neitz may have kicked the goal anyway cos he was kicking straight today, but the 50m gave it to him on a platter. I like Taylor cos he goes in hard but he lets himself down by giving away silly frees, 50ms too often.
Also his kickins scare me - Milli was doing well (ie kicking long!) until he was injured but I would have given the ball to Matera instead of Taylor after that!
Fair call about Cox, i think what gave us the advantage in the earlier games of the season was having the luxury of playing Gardiner at CHF when we needed extra scoring power. Thats where i personally think Sierra or Tuckey can assist, as Cox to me doesnt have the build to hold down the ruck or a forward position.
With regards to kick ins, theres no doubt we are one of the worst teams when it comes to that. Peter Matera should do the kicking in duties until Prior gets back. Ive always thought that Prior has a game style similar to McKenna and hopefully he can get us out of defence without me having to hold my breath
daddy_4_eyes
20 Apr 2002, 20:55
This is what I saw:
*Defense was hopeless. Glass struggled. Jako was pathetic, for a 200 game veteran he should be more accountable. Collica disappeared, bobbed up here and there but overall was useless. Taylor isn't a defender, enough said. McIntosh was good, for the whole 12 mins he was on the ground :(
*Forwards were non existant. Did we even have a forward line? because sometimes I felt 6 donkeys would of had a better chance of scoring than our forwards. Absolutely disgraceful! Embley and Williams were visible for about 5mins each, the rest of the time they were in a world of their own.
*Midfielders were good, but why the fu*k did woosha persist with the rotations? In the 1st quarter wirra was having a ripper, Woosha benches him. Why? Judd was doing pretty good, Woosha swaps him for fletcher. Kerr was dominationg the 3rd quarter, woosha shifts him to defense towards the end. Fair enough Woosha wants to keep his players fresh, but why take the form players off?
*Ruck was lacking a bit. Gards tried his ass off, but he could only do that much.
Overall, we were convincingly beaten. The scoreline flattered us. Only reason we were within 10pts of the Dees in the 3rd quarter was because White and Powell were being rested.
Bad memories of the KJ years came flooding back.
Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
*Midfielders were good, but why the fu*k did woosha persist with the rotations? In the 1st quarter wirra was having a ripper, Woosha benches him. Why? Judd was doing pretty good, Woosha swaps him for fletcher. Kerr was dominationg the 3rd quarter, woosha shifts him to defense towards the end. Fair enough Woosha wants to keep his players fresh, but why take the form players off?
Words cannot describe how much i agree with your comments there!!
Wirra started off brilliantly, halfway through the second term i was saying to myself "Gee, Wirras gone quiet" then the camera shot had him on the bench
When he came on he made an immediate impact but while off we certainly lacked a bit of class. I can understand Woosha's thoughts on resting players but its coming back to bite us. It happened today and also against Collingwood when he took off Matera, Cousins and McIntosh to rest them when the game was in the balance....
Voice of Reason
20 Apr 2002, 21:33
Originally posted by daddy_4_eyes
This is what I saw:
*Defense was hopeless. Glass struggled. Jako was pathetic, for a 200 game veteran he should be more accountable. Collica disappeared, bobbed up here and there but overall was useless. Taylor isn't a defender, enough said. McIntosh was good, for the whole 12 mins he was on the ground :(
*Forwards were non existant. Did we even have a forward line? because sometimes I felt 6 donkeys would of had a better chance of scoring than our forwards. Absolutely disgraceful! Embley and Williams were visible for about 5mins each, the rest of the time they were in a world of their own.
*Midfielders were good, but why the fu*k did woosha persist with the rotations? In the 1st quarter wirra was having a ripper, Woosha benches him. Why? Judd was doing pretty good, Woosha swaps him for fletcher. Kerr was dominationg the 3rd quarter, woosha shifts him to defense towards the end. Fair enough Woosha wants to keep his players fresh, but why take the form players off?
*Ruck was lacking a bit. Gards tried his ass off, but he could only do that much.
Overall, we were convincingly beaten. The scoreline flattered us. Only reason we were within 10pts of the Dees in the 3rd quarter was because White and Powell were being rested.
Bad memories of the KJ years came flooding back.
Yeah and thanks for your support. No doubt they're all hacks if they lose to Brisbane next week too.
They kept at it all day and if Judge had been coaching the heads would have gone down and we would have lost by 100 points, assuming we actually tried to win the game instead of just trying to minimise the size of the loss.
Patience is a virtue and Rome wasn't built in a day.
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Yeah and thanks for your support. No doubt they're all hacks if they lose to Brisbane next week too.
They kept at it all day and if Judge had been coaching the heads would have gone down and we would have lost by 100 points, assuming we actually tried to win the game instead of just trying to minimise the size of the loss.
Patience is a virtue and Rome wasn't built in a day.
I dont think d4e is saying the players are hacks, he's pointing out (as i was) that we were playing way lower than our potential. Also, you have to admit that taking off key players at times is a strange move that Woosha will have to look at.
However, as you can see from d4e's post, he was very passionate about what he thought :D
Voice of Reason
20 Apr 2002, 22:04
Originally posted by iceman
I dont think d4e is saying the players are hacks, he's pointing out (as i was) that we were playing way lower than our potential. Also, you have to admit that taking off key players at times is a strange move that Woosha will have to look at.
However, as you can see from d4e's post, he was very passionate about what he thought :D
I felt the expression "sometimes I felt 6 donkeys would of had a better chance of scoring than our forwards." might be construed as hinting that our players were hacks. But perhaps I'm being unfair. He also criticised the entire defence.
Do you really think we're playing "way lower than our potential"? We are playing better than last year and lost by 34 points to a team in the top 3 who have already beaten Hawthorn and Port Adelaide, have a magnificent ruck and midfield when they're all fit and firing and reached a Grand Final 18 months ago. We were also away in Melbourne, lost the man we needed to play on either Schwartz or Neitz in the first ten minutes and had a shorter break after playing in humid heat last week.
Perhaps we should give Melbourne a bit of credit instead of just slating our own side, who have been through hell in the last 3 years and need our support rather than just mouthing off at the first sign of defeat.
Some of the things that have been said are a ridiculous over-reaction. It'll take time to right the sins of the past and we should support the team while that process takes place.
daddy_4_eyes
20 Apr 2002, 22:04
Originally posted by iceman
However, as you can see from d4e's post, he was very passionate about what he thought :D
Exactly :p
I didn't mean that the players were hacks, but they sure as hell played like it today. I cannot understand how the Dees could possibly chip the ball around in their attacking 50 with such ease. The defenders didn't man up. The forwards spilled easy marks, didn't offer an option, and when they had an opportunity to score more often than not they wasted it.
Not much for me to say about the game.
I expected the Eagles to be drained after last weeks game in the heat and humidity, plus the flight and only 5 days rest and that's what I saw. For the first ten minutes of each quarter they were sharp and good, clearly pumped by Woosha. But after that the tiredness was so obvious, always second to the ball and little run. Poor Banners, he wasn't 100% fit last week so it's hardly surprising he was flaked for this game.
Still I thought we were only worth a 20 point loss, some basic mistakes and a couple of umpiring blues cost us (Neitz's 6th...free kick against Jako.....mystifying)
I was again please with Chambers. I thought Haynes would be the man this year but it looks like being Callum. Embers tried so hard but had one of those days. Never mind, they wont happen too often. Wirrapunda was brilliant at times. All credit to Jako, despite the crap C10 commentary, He shackled the Ox and then shackled Neitz. Losing Milli was a blow. Oh..and Hunter. That pack mark and goal......I think there is a message there about where he should be playing.
Voice of Reason
20 Apr 2002, 22:36
I have been critical of Chambers in the past but was pleased with him today - in fact he got a vote from me. If he can just get a bit more of the ball on the half forward flank he might be the man to deliver the ball lace out to the forward line.
And Hunter did all right too, even when he was in defence - on Brad Green too, a highly dangerous player.
I'm not trying to give the impression of someone who is blind to our faults or who sees the positive even where there isn't one, I just think that we are on the right track and need to keep working at it, without being unnecesarily critical or having too high expectations. A few short weeks ago, the entire world was tipping us for the spoon. Now we look competitive in every game and don't drop our heads ever.
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
I just think that we are on the right track and need to keep working at it, without being unnecesarily critical or having too high expectations. A few short weeks ago, the entire world was tipping us for the spoon. Now we look competitive in every game and don't drop our heads ever.
I'm 100% behind you there VoR. 8-10 wins was my prediction at season begining with 8-12 spot being a step in the right direction. 2 wins from 4 is not a bad start and ALL performances have had encouraging signs. I'm more than ever convinced we'll get those other 6 wins this season, and prabably a few more.
I can reflect on how I felt last season and can say that times are very much happier now.
Goldenblue
20 Apr 2002, 23:19
I understand both VOR and frodo on their comments regarding the players and giving them time, but being realistic, there needs to be a few things to happen to the side to help them improve.
1. Banners needs to be dropped to the WAFL. It is no good to the side to see him hardly make an impact. he is better in the midfield and needs to run with a player to get fitness again.
2. Skill level. Absolute shocking these past couple of weeks the skill level has been. The amount of times our skill level let us down enabling the ball to be turned over, our players caught out of position, and then opposition punishes us. I understand we are a young side, but some of the kicking and handpassing did miss targets a lot even under no pressure. I am sure these guys are a lot better than this.
No doubt these guys are on the up and their talents shall lead the WC to better times, but if these small errors and use of unfit players are not amended, it could be another long year.......
GoEagles
20 Apr 2002, 23:35
Love the avatar Goldenblue! :D
Goldenblue
20 Apr 2002, 23:45
Originally posted by GoEagles
Love the avatar Goldenblue! :D
Cheers....:D
Did not want to see Kenny dead, after all, he is my favourite...;)
I agree with VOR...we have to have patience! We didnt have the best of games but there were obvious positives. Half way through the last we were almost down by 50 and the commentators said this is where we find out what WC are made of, do they lets it slip and it turns into a 10+goal loss or do they fight it out. Last year it would have been the 10 goal loss, this year we stuck at it and fought it out. That in itself is a big positive.
McIntosh is all class and if he fit and healthy every game i think we would make the 8 no question. He consistently thrashes the oppositions best forward but he is never healthy enough to do it consistently. Neitz didnt have one disposal and im not even sure he got a hand on th ball in the first quarter. Second quarter, no Milli....6 goals. He is all class and i just wish he could get healthy. Will be sorely missed against Brisbane.
Jako wasnt as bad as some thought...he didnt have a lot of disposals but his defensive spoils and stuff like that were very good. Kept Schwarz very quiet and after Glass was given a bath by Neitz, moved onto him and i think he got one goal after that.
And how about Matera...at times he is mercurial....that passage of play along the boundary line on the wing where he just handballed to himself, got tackled, collected the ball again Wirrpunda style...one hand at full pace and delivered it into the forward line. He is top class and i see no reason why this would be his last season?
Voice of Reason
21 Apr 2002, 10:43
Originally posted by Goldenblue
Skill level. Absolute shocking these past couple of weeks the skill level has been. The amount of times our skill level let us down enabling the ball to be turned over, our players caught out of position, and then opposition punishes us. I understand we are a young side, but some of the kicking and handpassing did miss targets a lot even under no pressure. I am sure these guys are a lot better than this.
I have a theory on why our skill level appears to be so low.
For two years we have taken no risks. We have attempted to not make mistakes. We have tried to negate the other side and minimise the chances of a big loss, especially when playing away from home.
This explains why Cousins had so many possessions last year - all the rest of the team did was give it to him (often 2 or 3 handballs in a row). It also explains why we supposedly had "the worst forward line" (we don't) because the ball never got there and certainly not quickly. We generally kicked low scores, except when we thought the other team was crap, like St Kilda, when we loosened up a bit and attacked. Make a mistake and you were dragged last year (and probably humiliated in front of your peers later).
This year - new strategy. We take risks. We attack. We believe we can win every game, so we go for it. Players are not afraid to make mistakes because they know that IT IS BETTER TO FAIL BECAUSE YOU TRIED THAN NEVER TO HAVE TRIED AT ALL.
The players have faith in their team mates and that they will do the right thing, so get forward and support them. This is why our skill level looks terrible. When a turnover happens, we get punished, because players have worked on the basis that we will not make make a mistake and haven't yet developed (as a group of people) the footy smarts to minimise the damage from turnovers. At this level, you get punished for your mistakes by a goal and it looks terrible. Gradually we will reduce these errors (which all players make to some extent).
In the process of risktaking and learning, they will become better players and a better team. But it will take time.
Originally posted by Voice of Reason
Do you really think we're playing "way lower than our potential"? We are playing better than last year and lost by 34 points to a team in the top 3 who have already beaten Hawthorn and Port Adelaide, have a magnificent ruck and midfield when they're all fit and firing and reached a Grand Final 18 months ago. We were also away in Melbourne, lost the man we needed to play on either Schwartz or Neitz in the first ten minutes and had a shorter break after playing in humid heat last week.
Just a reply to some of your above comments: :D
Firstly, when i mention 'playing below our potential' it doesnt mean we're a top 4 side playing like crap, it means that the players should at least have enough skills to kick to a teammate, not straight to the opposition player.
Another thing is that the Melbourne players were breaking free of our players tackles way too easily and for some reason always had men free, especially inside 50 (which is unforgivable)
Lastly, a bit of healthy criticism doesnt do any harm, just pointing out where i thought we made mistakes ;)
Originally posted by jod23
McIntosh is all class and if he fit and healthy every game i think we would make the 8 no question. He consistently thrashes the oppositions best forward but he is never healthy enough to do it consistently. Neitz didnt have one disposal and im not even sure he got a hand on th ball in the first quarter. Second quarter, no Milli....6 goals. He is all class and i just wish he could get healthy. Will be sorely missed against Brisbane.
And how about Matera...at times he is mercurial....that passage of play along the boundary line on the wing where he just handballed to himself, got tackled, collected the ball again Wirrpunda style...one hand at full pace and delivered it into the forward line. He is top class and i see no reason why this would be his last season?
I agree with you about McIntosh, no doubt he is all class and when fit is one of the best full backs around. However, the question is: 'Is he ever 100% fit?' Im sure that he thinks he can still play at this level, but can his body do what his mind tells it to??
Also, a lot of people say that he towelled up Neitz before going off injured, now im not denying he couldnt have done the job but for the first 10 minutes of the game we completely dominated around the grounds and the score was 2.2.14 to 0.1.1. From that scoreline it shows how many times Melbourne actually got it to their forward line.
Peter Matera was fantastic, still very valuable. His loss in the coming years is going to be huge. I would hate to think this is his last season but i would prefer he retire on a high rather than keep playing and retire mid season due to injuries. However, nothing at the moment points to him having to retire at seasons end
Belgarion
21 Apr 2002, 17:09
I agree with most of what VOR says. One other thing I want to add, in any game anybody including champions, will make mistakes sometimes. Particularly in a game like ours with a ball which will bounce any which way. So I always expect to see some mistakes. Even the Lions and Essendon sometimes make mistakes.
The key to me is to minimize the amount of mistakes, and to maximize the chances of the guys doing the right thing.
For example, getting Peter Matera doing the kick ins instead of Taylor, maximizes the chances of doing the right thing. (We really miss Bluey in the kick-ins!).
Also, when under pressure and without time to think you tend to do as you practice. For that reason, I believe it's important that players have drills where they practice their skills in near match condition.
I also believe that despite all the skill errors, we are doing much better in this area than last year. Part of it is because of confidence, and the reasons VoR pointed out before. Part is because many of our guys are becoming more experienced (E.g., Callum Chambers with 24 games), and part because probably we have better drills that last year.
I expect this area will keep improving, but not dramatically or quickly.
Belgarion
brampta
21 Apr 2002, 18:06
Well it was heartbreaking to sit through that loss yesterday but this is another reason for the loss that hasn't been mentioned yet -
I thought we were absolutely killed by the Melbourne midfield. They are FAST and they gave each other options through the middle. I think that was one of the big differences at the end of the day. West Coast always seems to go down the wings instead of through the middle and sometimes it can just be soooo frustrating. Melbourne were catching us out by changing the direction of the play and finding loose men everywhere!!
The other difference between Melbourne and West Coast that I drew from the game was that Melbourne were converting nearly every time they went into 50. There were so many times that we went in only to have the ball rebounded out by Melbourne. To win games we MUST convert when we go into our 50m zone otherwise, there's just no point.
Chris Judd was one of the positives I can draw out of that game. He is a GUN :D
Some of the things that have been said are a ridiculous over-reaction. It'll take time to right the sins of the past and we should support the team while that process takes place.
I agree. We have to be patient and remember that Worsfold is still an inexperienced coach with the potential to be a great one. He'll make mistakes that will cost us a few games but that is all part of the process. In time he will get better and so will the team.