List Management/Contracts/Draft Discussion *MERGED THREADS*

[barnesy]

I don't want to take the gloss of a great game last night, one which was brilliant.

I was just wondering what peoples thoughts are on how we are going to open up spots come years end to elevate Jackson and Aisake, plus have 4 shots in the National Draft and 1 in the pre seaon draft.

We have experienced the emotion of good games and bad games, and individual performances that make you wonder should they stay should they go.

For example I would think come years end Mclaren and Teague would obviously go, Raso may have to be included but others might say he shows enough to work with for years to come, I would have thought Bannister was a chance having not played and being out of contract, but look at his last two games and what he brought in.

Saddington - do we don't we, and what about Kouta and Lappin?

I certainly want to enjoy the wins this year, but keeping an eye to the years end I just wonder how we are going to open up 7 spots.

Mclaren
Teague
Raso
Saddington
Kouta - ?
Lappin -?
Bannister-?

A tough call come years end.

[AlecDuncan]

A tough call come years end.
I don't think we will elevate Jackson. Aisake will get a gig though.

You're right though - it's getting tough to find guys we don't want. If Kouta and Lappin keep playing like they did last week and want another year it'll be tough to refuse them too.

Nice problem to have at last, but lotsa heart-ache just the same. I hope Icke and the guys know what they're doing.

[Sticks 4]

The obvious ones are Teague and Mclaren. Raso seems to be struggling, but who knows what we have planned for him. If I was a betting man, which I am, I'd bet that Kouta will hang up the boots at the end of the season. Having said that, if he feels like he could go on, and he keeps contributing, no-one will force him out.

Wiggins and Bannister have given themselves a chance in the last fortnight but if they drop off again they could be in trouble.

Realistically, unless your around the club you don't know what the panel is thinking of these young kids. Maybe one of them doesn't commit to training enough? Maybe one has a drug problem? Maybe one is homesick? Maybe one wants more money?

All of these things may change our list and we won't know until the end of the season. On form, from what we've seen, and what the potential of these guys is, there will be some very tough calls made.

[bakerboy]

I don't want to take the gloss of a great game last night, one which was brilliant.

I was just wondering what peoples thoughts are on how we are going to open up spots come years end to elevate Jackson and Aisake, plus have 4 shots in the National Draft and 1 in the pre seaon draft.

We have experienced the emotion of good games and bad games, and individual performances that make you wonder should they stay should they go.

For example I would think come years end Mclaren and Teague would obviously go, Raso may have to be included but others might say he shows enough to work with for years to come, I would have thought Bannister was a chance having not played and being out of contract, but look at his last two games and what he brought in.

Saddington - do we don't we, and what about Kouta and Lappin?

I certainly want to enjoy the wins this year, but keeping an eye to the years end I just wonder how we are going to open up 7 spots.

Mclaren
Teague
Raso
Saddington
Kouta - ?
Lappin -?
Bannister-?

A tough call come years end.
How can you say SADDO he has been 1 of the keys in defence.
He plays smart and has experience,bad call

[no. 4]

I think Lappin can play on as a small leading forward ie. Brad Johnson. I personally would like to see Kouta retire at the end of the year. Im one of those people who don't like to see the champions of the game get beaten and that will probably be the case with him next year. It seems that Raso won't make it so he might be another on the way out. Teague and Mclaren are certainties to go. Bannister and Saddington have the rest of the season to save there careers and at the moment they are holding there places on the list.

[big_bad_blue]

never know what trades may open up spots either
may have a trade of 2 carlton players for a top player and/or draft pick...
that could open up a spot or 2 as well

[whippersnipper]

I certainly want to enjoy the wins this year, but keeping an eye to the years end I just wonder how we are going to open up 7 spots.

Mclaren
Teague
Raso
Saddington
Kouta - ?
Lappin -?
Bannister-?

A tough call come years end.
McLaren, Teague and Raso are gone. Simple as that. Saddington is looking more and more likely that he will play on next year. Same with Kouta. Bannister will most likely be gone. Lappin is playing as well as he ever has. Wiggins is a possibility

But remember, we dont NEED to open up seven spots. Four ND picks and 1 PSD pick will be enough I think. That means that we need to find two players from the above (I cant see anyone else would would get chopped (Flint perhaps?)- most likely Bannister and Wiggins (only reason I put them in the probably pile is because they are in the side ATM- doesn't mean I think they will be there next year)

[a1118374]

hartlett traded i think would be a good move, with setanta moving back into a KP and kennedy coming through hes not really necessary, especially if crows/port want to give us something

[blues4flag]

Will definitely be a tough call. Saddo has done enough to earn his position, given he can keep it up. Banno and Wiggins have been good, though still a long way to go. One of them will probably have to go, which will be tough, especially if they can maintain this form.

Glad I'm not the one making the decision.

[Will.B.Worth.Da.Waite]

Do we HAVE to use our PSD pick? Can we trade it or simply pass? Cas if so, if the quality of players available is similar to last year, i would rather just not pick up anybody

FWIW im extremely against trading Saddington. I honestly believe he's one of the reasons we've been performing better. He's holding his own, and providing a better learning environment for our young defenders who don't have to take on as much responsibility

[marcmurphy3]

We probably won't be able to open up 7 spots.

Right now:
Teague
McLaren
Raso all gone

Hartlett (I will get murdered for saying this but it's true) is also in real danger if he doesn't start to fire.

If Bannister keeps up his current form he will be safe for sure. He actually looks like he could be a player and is only 25.

So my prediction is (at this stage)
Out: Teague, McLaren, Raso, Hartlett
In: 1 round second, 2 round, 3rd round draft picks (should go for mids with each pick (unless gun drops). We're desperate for more depth in this area. We need guys with good disposal. Also a half foward who is a great finisher would be nice (Maaric))
Rookie upgrade (Aisake)
Might have to get rid of one more player for a pre-season draft pick

[ClayBlue87]

Would either of Edwards or Flint be in trouble come years end. Neither have knocked hard enough to play in the seniors. Personally have not seen either play, be interested in people's feedback.

[Blue Dawn]

Looks like Jackson may struggle to get through - although hopefully he'll be given one more crack before years end. Raso simply has to go with Teague and McLaren. What happens with Hartlett could depend on whether or not we have any GO HOME factor with JK and Bower - assuming they're both out of contract at years end.

[stokesy]

The players I would get rid of at the moment are:

Cameron Cloke - to injury prone
Adam Hartlett - not doing enough
Dylan McLaren - times up
Anthony Raso - not doing enough
David Teague - times up
Ross Young - doesn't excite me

[BlueWorld]

hartlett traded i think would be a good move, with setanta moving back into a KP and kennedy coming through hes not really necessary, especially if crows/port want to give us somethingWhat would we get for Hartlett? Who would want him? He's managed one game in 3 years.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

This was done in another thread recently but the scenario in my reckoning is this:

We currently have 38 senior listed players with 5 rookies. Cutting rookies does nothing to cull the list (obvious I know but spelling it out). Kouta is a veteran inside the list. If Kouta wants to play on we can make him a veteran outside the list meaning we have 38 listed players, one veteran and can still maintain 5 rookies. So in effect Kouta would only take the spot of a rookie. If Kouta was to retire, we have no other veterans and would have to go into next year with 38 listed players and 6 rookies. So this is important ... while he is this year, he didn't need to be if we wanted it that way. i.eKouta is not taking up a spot on our senior list.[/quote]

So we have 38 spots to play with aside from Kouta.

By the first deadline, we have to reduce that list to 35 and rookie promotions have to be announced. So if Aisake is promoted and that is almost certain, then we have to lose 4 to compensate. Jackson is an interesting one as he was so close to being promoted last year but if he is not promoted this year, he is gone. Not sure that he deserves to be cut. If he is promoted we have to lose 5 by first list lodgement. We will assume he suffers a crueller cut than even Jesse Smith last year.

So 4 to go. McLaren and Teague have already packed their bags. Raso is the next in line. Now Kouta can go as part of this initial four because he is inside the 38 this year but as we have discussed, when all is said and done he is only taking a spot reserved for a rookie so if he wants to play on we should accommodate him.

Based on that, we do not have a 4th player to delist for the first lodgement even.

We know that Kennedy or any first year players will not be cut. The first year players are on two year contracts anyway. Russell is another top 10 draft pick who has more time and is contracted to boot.

Other non first year players that have not cemented a spot yet:

Wiggins, Bannister, Saddington, Hartlett, Flint, Betts, Bower, Cloke, Ackland, Blackwell, Bentick, Edwards.

I will throw in Lappin as in the risky zone due to age and minor consistency issues.

So one of those 12 have to go by first lodgement.

If we finish say 12th, we will have picks 5, 22 (Tiges will get a pre second round PP), 38, 54. I suspect we will not use 54 as that would be a greater risk than cutting a semi required player. I think we have to use 3 national draft picks according to the rules.

Technically, we can limit the damage to McLaren, Teague and Raso if Kouta retires, and go in to next year with 38 on the list (0 veterans) and 6 rookies. We can then even rookie Raso if nobody else takes him. We use the minimum 3 national draft picks and no pick in the PSD. We do have the luxury of waiting to see who will be available in the PSD before deciding whether to use that pick or not as well. Pick 5 in the PSD is not likely to be any better than one of the players we are letting go.

[b]In summary:

Out: McLaren, Teague, Raso
Retire: Kouta
Rookie addition: Raso
National Draft: Picks 5, 22, 38
Preseason Draft: None

Nice and tidy. Lose only McLaren and Teague (and Jackson from the rookie list)

However ... Kouta stays, one of the above mentioned 13 has to go. Jackson elevated, one of those 13 has to go. Use an extra ND pick, one of those 13 has to go. Use PSD pick, one of those 13 have to go. So now we are looking at between 3-7 players going.

Trade week is the key here if we do not want to make hard cuts to a list with plenty of depth. Would we trade a Hartlett or a Bower type, package it with pick 38 and try to get a first rounder or early second rounder? We then open up another space on our list and still only need to use our first three picks inside Pick 22. This gives us a huge shot of having 3 hits with those picks.

There is no way Bower would be simply delisted. Zero chance. We would be unlikely to delist Hartlett either but may try and get something for him. Edwards is safer than Hartlett and on the verge of senior selection. Wiggins is contracted for next year and Ackland for two more years. They will not be delisted IMO as their salaries would be counted in next years cap, and that is wasted money because even if we have room next year, we should front load contracts to avoid the squeeze when others put their hand up for more after that.

I have Bentick in there but he is all but safe. 90% cemented IMO. Lappin in his current form can play on if he wishes. We now have a list of 9 to play with, 6 if you consider we will not let Bower, Edwards and Hartlett go for nothing given the develop put into them.

Those 6 are Bannister, Saddington, Flint, Betts, Cloke, Blackwell. Of those, only Flint has shown nothing this year but was elevated for a reason and is young. Would be a harsh cut but possible. Eddie is almost in the Bentick category - 90% cemented but being injured while the team is performing can be a career killer. Eddie will stay though. Blackers is half cemented and should remain as he has performance and age on his side. That leaves 4.

Remember above? Up to 4 extra cuts possibly needed ... 4 players left.

Bannister, Saddington, Flint and Cloke. If Bannister maintains some consistency for the rest of the year, he will be safe but previous inconsistency or lack of opportunity has given him some negative rep so he needs to maintain this form surge. Saddo will be cut if he gets injured again this year. Age is not on his side but depth in our defence is. Flint and Cloke are right in the gun all of a sudden and who would have thought that earlier in the year as Cloke was fantastic, but the fact is he is injury prone and may never get over that. There must have been a plan for Flint because he was elevated above Jackson but he might be the unluckiest rookie promotion in a long time because he has not suffered a form loss.

Apologies how long winded and hard to read this is, but when you rationalise it, and look at most likely scenarios, there will be players lost from our list that really deserve a chance to remain.

How long since we have said that?

It aint getting any easier next year either as we make decisions on rookies like Jacobs and players like Lappin have to retire and players like Houlihan, Blackwell, Wiggins, Bower, Russell and Bentick have to fight tooth and nail to remain.

Incremental improvement every time a required player suffers a cruel cut. That is how we will go from possibles to probables. Stay tuned for raised eyebrows at the end of the year and be prepared to see former Carlton players now getting a chance at other clubs and probably doing well. When was the last time Carlton offcuts had value elsewhere? That is one of the measures of a quality list.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What would we get for Hartlett? Who would want him? He's managed one game in 3 years.I subscribe to the theory that we wouldn't simply delist Hartlett too. Would have to be used to upgrade a pick somewhere as he is now a big lump of a lad, potentially a Quinten Lynch type OR at worst a Jay Schulz. Has youth on his side.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The players I would get rid of at the moment are:

Cameron Cloke - to injury prone
Adam Hartlett - not doing enough
Dylan McLaren - times up
Anthony Raso - not doing enough
David Teague - times up
Ross Young - doesn't excite meHe's a rookie so does not clear a spot on the list.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Do we HAVE to use our PSD pick? Can we trade it or simply pass? Cas if so, if the quality of players available is similar to last year, i would rather just not pick up anybodyI don't think we will use it and we do not have to. Pick 1 has netted us McLaren and Ackland in the past and others like Trent Knobel have also been nabbed at 1. Considering we are likely to get a pick from about 3-5, there will be nothing of quality there to replace the player that would have to get cut to make sure. PSD means nothing to us this year IMO.

[BlueWorld]

Other non first year players that have not cemented a spot yet:

Wiggins, Bannister, Saddington, Hartlett, Flint, Betts, Bower, Cloke, Ackland, Blackwell, Bentick, Edwards.Can't remember any of those in the Bullants in quite a while so I'd say they've cemented a spot (in the club's eyes at least) and Bannister's certainly doing it atm.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Would either of Edwards or Flint be in trouble come years end. Neither have knocked hard enough to play in the seniors. Personally have not seen either play, be interested in people's feedback.Edwards knocked hard enough but then got injured. Suspect he has prolonged the career of Saddo and/or Banno by virtue of that injury. Edwards is safe though (as safe as you can be when tough decisions have to be made).

[whippersnipper]

I don't think we will use it and we do not have to. Pick 1 has netted us McLaren and Ackland in the past and others like Trent Knobel have also been nabbed at 1. Considering we are likely to get a pick from about 3-5, there will be nothing of quality there to replace the player that would have to get cut to make sure. PSD means nothing to us this year IMO.
Bit pre-emptive don't you think? That same PSD had also netted us Nick Stevens. While I would never suggest we would pick up a player of his quality again, with us still likely to finish close to the bottom (and thus have a PSD pick at 2 or 3), who knows who might be out of contract. There is no reason to make a decision on the PSD until the end of the year, when lists are finalized.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Can't remember any of those in the Bullants in quite a while so I'd say they've cemented a spot (in the club's eyes at least) and Bannister's certainly doing it atm.It's all relative. We have injuries and have won a couple in a row. If we lose a couple it all changes as those ranked 17-22 are under pressure. Then you take into account age, past performance, injuries, current form. Cemented means you are an automatic selection every week with very little pressure for your spot. Can you still say they are cemented? Ackland and Cloke are not long term ruck options and if for example Aisake and Hampson jumped forward rapidly, they would be in trouble. I noted that Ackland has two more years on his contract so wouldn't go.

I am trying to be objective and not make huge calls on players I like staying. I probably could a little harsher on Hartlett however. It is not very easy to rationalise your way through to a realistic conclusion.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Bit pre-emptive don't you think? That same PSD had also netted us Nick Stevens. While I would never suggest we would pick up a player of his quality again, with us still likely to finish close to the bottom (and thus have a PSD pick at 2 or 3), who knows who might be out of contract. There is no reason to make a decision on the PSD until the end of the year, when lists are finalized.The whole thread is pre-emptive is it not?

When you discuss these things, you look at most likely scenarios. I put forward mine based on history and based on what pick I thought we would have. If you read my essay, I did say that if Kouta stayed, and if we used another ND pick and if we elevated Jackson and if we used our PSD pick ... etc. I allowed for every scenario.

My predominant feeling though is that pick 5ish in the PSD would see us not using the pick as it would represent value no better than the player who we are seeking to crush. If its value is over and above, we use it. I'll tell you though, I would not take a Brent Guerra type at the expense of Saddo, Banno, Flint or Cloke. If there is something of worse around then, we will use the pick and exercise one of those 'if' options I discussed.

[Homer Simpson for Lance]

Agree Teague
Raso
McClaren all gone.

Have a feeling Flint will not stay on the list

I think Aisake and Jacko will get promoted.

List is unbalanced with too many tall forward options.
Fev
Waite
Fish
Whitnall
JK
Jake Edwards
Hartlett
Setanta a possible forward if rucks develop
+ Wiggo plays a sort of psuedo CHF role well......being the leading target for rebound out of the back half.

There is definately not room for all of them in the team nor on the list.

I would be very surprised to see Hartlett stay........dont think he would command anything, at best a late pick if traded.

JK may be worth a top 5 pick........anyone interested in that ?

Also think the coaching staff will have a good look at Aisake at senior level before this years end. If they decide to try and play him all year(next year) like with Setanta this season we may say goodbye to Cam Cloke as there are many ruck prospects in this years draft.

[Devoid]

Agree completely with the above post on the unbalanced list. If we are going to promote Aisake and potentially look to draft another ruckman then we really need to cut some height from our list. My list would be:

McLaren
Teague
Kouta
Raso
Hartlett - (he was only given a 1 yr contract last year and hasnt shown anything to show he was more deserving)
Flint/Bannister/Saddington - really depends on form and injury

That leaves you with 1 promotion and 5 draft picks. From that you are getting rid of 5 players around 190 cm and another who plays at that height (Teague). You would look to add 1-2 ruckmen and the rest mids/genuine running flankers.

[K.Simpson]

Id say the following players will most likely go...

- D. Teague
- D. McLaren
- A. Raso
- C. Flint
- A. Hartlett
- J. Edwards
- R. Jackson
- R. Young

Leaves us with 2 rookies and 6 draftees, most like 4 from the NAB draft and 1 from the PSD and Aisake promoted.

[roly]

some people mention jk as possible trade bait.....i hope you have been on the juice last night the kid is 19 and grown 2 or 3cm in the last year ,you just dont let them go now he is going to be good dont worry about that.
there will be tough calls to make teague mclaren raso are rs and bannister wiggins and saddingotn will all probaly go too. forget how well they are playing now are they going to be good enough in three years time when we should be ready to have a crack at a flag.......answer no because they havent cemented a spot now and will fall away

[Homer Simpson for Lance]

I mentioned JK would attract a top 5 pick.....didnt suggest it was a good move on our part......only asked for thoughts.......I am more than happy with him on our list ( I rate him quite highly), though we do need to trim our list of tall forwards as I mentioned earlier.

It is great that for the first time in years there will be tough decisions to make, instead of having a backlog of deadwood to clear. Next year's list trimming process will be even tougher......a good sign

[barnesy]

How can you say SADDO he has been 1 of the keys in defence.
He plays smart and has experience,bad call

He has been injury prone, is out of contract and we need to make room. He has held his own recently which is a start, but if other options pop up and do there bit then I would think he is a chance.

[deluxeman]

A couple of weeks ago, just about everybody (including myself) would have had Bannister and Saddington in the certainees to be delisted at the end of the year.

This probably proves that this talk is best left till the end of the year as a lot can still change.

[Bentick's My Man.]

Gone:
David Teague - Delisted
Dylan McLaren - Delisted
Anthony Koutoufides - Retired
Lance Whitnall? - Trade?

I think in all honesty, and I hate to say it, Lance Whitnall should be traded if we are trading any KPP.

He will always chip in and do his bit but he is not the player everyone thought he was going to be.

I just really cannot find a consistent spot in our line-up.
We have enough tall forward goal kicking options in Fevola, Waite & Fisher with Wiggins now becoming somewhat of a hit-up target across CHF with Matty Lappin kicking a couple every now and then with Betts still to return.
He is just too slow to play KP backline except on players like Rocca and possibly Lucas and he does not have a spot mopping up across half-back like he used to because Heath Scotland does a superb job of it with Houlihan when he is down there.

Hartlett & Kennedy will grow and develop because they are tall KPP and i don't expect Kennedy to do anything too special untill he is 21-22 still so they are off the market in my opinion but i'm not sure if we would get anything for Whitnall but if we could get a high enough pick then yeah I would trade him.

[whippersnipper]

Gone:
David Teague - Delisted
Dylan McLaren - Delisted
Anthony Koutoufides - Retired
Lance Whitnall? - Trade?

I think in all honesty, and I hate to say it, Lance Whitnall should be traded if we are trading any KPP.

He will always chip in and do his bit but he is not the player everyone thought he was going to be.

I just really cannot find a consistent spot in our line-up.
We have enough tall forward goal kicking options in Fevola, Waite & Fisher with Wiggins now becoming somewhat of a hit-up target across CHF with Matty Lappin kicking a couple every now and then with Betts still to return.
He is just too slow to play KP backline except on players like Rocca and possibly Lucas and he does not have a spot mopping up across half-back like he used to because Heath Scotland does a superb job of it with Houlihan when he is down there.

Hartlett & Kennedy will grow and develop because they are tall KPP and i don't expect Kennedy to do anything too special untill he is 21-22 still so they are off the market in my opinion but i'm not sure if we would get anything for Whitnall but if we could get a high enough pick then yeah I would trade him.
Lance wont be traded/delisted. Firstly, because he is the captain. Its one thing to drop your captain, its another to get rid of him at the end of his first year in the job. It would reflect very poorly on the club. But I agree, Lance is struggling. He is far too slow for today's game, and the end of his shelf life is rapidly approaching.

[BLue_Bloys]

Gone:
David Teague - Delisted
Dylan McLaren - Delisted
Anthony Koutoufides - Retired
Lance Whitnall? - Trade?

I think in all honesty, and I hate to say it, Lance Whitnall should be traded if we are trading any KPP.

He will always chip in and do his bit but he is not the player everyone thought he was going to be.

I just really cannot find a consistent spot in our line-up.
We have enough tall forward goal kicking options in Fevola, Waite & Fisher with Wiggins now becoming somewhat of a hit-up target across CHF with Matty Lappin kicking a couple every now and then with Betts still to return.
He is just too slow to play KP backline except on players like Rocca and possibly Lucas and he does not have a spot mopping up across half-back like he used to because Heath Scotland does a superb job of it with Houlihan when he is down there.

Hartlett & Kennedy will grow and develop because they are tall KPP and i don't expect Kennedy to do anything too special untill he is 21-22 still so they are off the market in my opinion but i'm not sure if we would get anything for Whitnall but if we could get a high enough pick then yeah I would trade him.

no, no and.....NO

The draft is all about potential, you are gambling on current form in an under18's competition to translate into afl. Why would you risk trading an established player, AA, club leading goalkicker (all in the past but all add so much experience to our inexperienced lineup) for someone who POTENTIALLY could be good.

Also the fact he is out captain. May not be athletic, but in a team full of athletes what's wrong with having a "real" footy man. He's got the best vision of anyone i have personally seen.

[Kouta_legend]

i cant believe some of your guys are talking about cutting ryan jackson or adam hartlett for that matter, that would be a disgrace to see jackson go.

Raso - gone
Teague - gone
McLaren - gone
Kouta - Retired

Bannister - Wiggins - Saddington - Flint ---- will make up the last delistee

definately not jackson, hartlett, lappin or edwards

[The Old Dark Navy's]

i cant believe some of your guys are talking about cutting ryan jackson or adam hartlett for that matter, that would be a disgrace to see jackson go.

Raso - gone
Teague - gone
McLaren - gone
Kouta - Retired

Bannister - Wiggins - Saddington - Flint ---- will make up the last delistee

definately not jackson, hartlett, lappin or edwardsIt is not a case of cutting Jackson, it is a case of being forced to delist someone so Jackson can be elevated. That makes the equation doubly difficult as he is not merely maintaining his own place, he has to be good enough to justify an extra cut elsewhere as he can not remain on the rookie list.

Wiggins is contracted and I would like to think he is good enough to remain and not have to waste salary cap space paying for a player we do not have anymore, when we would be better off using that space to front load another contract and avoid some squeeze a couple of years down the track when they are are all demanding more money.

[bakerboy]

The players I would get rid of at the moment are:

Cameron Cloke - to injury prone
Adam Hartlett - not doing enough
Dylan McLaren - times up
Anthony Raso - not doing enough
David Teague - times up
Ross Young - doesn't excite me

Good assesment

[DIG]

Do we HAVE to use our PSD pick? Can we trade it or simply pass? Cas if so, if the quality of players available is similar to last year, i would rather just not pick up anybody

FWIW im extremely against trading Saddington. I honestly believe he's one of the reasons we've been performing better. He's holding his own, and providing a better learning environment for our young defenders who don't have to take on as much responsibility
We don't have to use it. Depends where we finish - if bottom 3 we may land someone half decent with it, but the later the pick we have the less point in using it.

I agree with most that Raso, Teague and Mclaren are gone.

Beyond that is just speculation this early - like someone said, Bannister and Saddington would've been written off by everyone a few weeks ago.

[HBF]

Given the form of Saddo and Banno over the past few weeks, it would be a pretty tough call to axe them at seasons end, particularly considering we have such a lack of experience in the team as it is. At the moment, these are the guys that I would think will be delisted/traded/retired at years end:

McLaren - Delist
Teague - Delist
Raso - Delist
Young - Delist
Hartlett - Trade/Delist
Koutoufides - Retire

Still not sure about Jackson and Aisake at the minute. There are some pretty good ruck prospects coming through in this draft, and the club would need to weigh this up when deciding what they are going to to do him. As for Jackson, I think he might just miss out on being elevated to the senior list.

[Bluebear]

Gone:
David Teague - Delisted
Dylan McLaren - Delisted
Anthony Koutoufides - Retired
Lance Whitnall? - Trade?

I think in all honesty, and I hate to say it, Lance Whitnall should be traded if we are trading any KPP.

He will always chip in and do his bit but he is not the player everyone thought he was going to be.

I just really cannot find a consistent spot in our line-up.
We have enough tall forward goal kicking options in Fevola, Waite & Fisher with Wiggins now becoming somewhat of a hit-up target across CHF with Matty Lappin kicking a couple every now and then with Betts still to return.
He is just too slow to play KP backline except on players like Rocca and possibly Lucas and he does not have a spot mopping up across half-back like he used to because Heath Scotland does a superb job of it with Houlihan when he is down there.

Hartlett & Kennedy will grow and develop because they are tall KPP and i don't expect Kennedy to do anything too special untill he is 21-22 still so they are off the market in my opinion but i'm not sure if we would get anything for Whitnall but if we could get a high enough pick then yeah I would trade him.

You thought he would be the next Wayne Carey?

Won't be going anywhere.

Raso, Teague, McLaren gone.

If Aiskae comes up and shows some promise then a REALLY tought call may be made on Cloke.

So if Kouta stays on the list, outisde the 38, then we have to frre up 3 seniors and a rookie.........that right?

So the above and 1 rookie.........if the rucks in the upcoming draft are supposed to be that good maybe the rookie Jacobs is gone........anyone know how he is going?

Some guys are lucky that the draft isn't supposed to be deep this year.

[HBF]

So the above and 1 rookie.........if the rucks in the upcoming draft are supposed to be that good maybe the rookie Jacobs is gone........anyone know how he is going?


I suspect most of the good ruckman in this years draft will be on a senior lost next year, and not rookied.

[Bluebear]

I suspect most of the good ruckman in this years draft will be on a senior lost next year, and not rookied.

Yep, what I meant was I think for Kouta to be outside the list he takes a rookie spot........

I forgot about Aiskae being elevated, so we do need one more..........Urghhhh, too early in the year for this.:eek:

Note: Before we axe Cloke, lets just remeber that McLaren will be gone, and if Ackalnd gets an injury we would have ??? Hamspon or Aisake as the number 1 ruck...........Cloke will stay for this reason alone.

[HBF]

Yep, what I meant was I think for Kouta to be outside the list he takes a rookie spot........

I forgot about Aiskae being elevated, so we do need one more..........Urghhhh, too early in the year for this.:eek:

Note: Before we axe Cloke, lets just remeber that McLaren will be gone, and if Ackalnd gets an injury we would have ??? Hamspon or Aisake as the number 1 ruck...........Cloke will stay for this reason alone.

When was this going to happen BB? I would have thought Cam was pretty safe for next year, even with his shoulders. Given our lack of experienced ruckman, I would have thought he was very much a required player next year.

[EddieBettsIsAChamp]

I never really thought about this...

[BlueWorld]

Gone:
David Teague - Delisted
Dylan McLaren - Delisted
Anthony Koutoufides - Retired
Lance Whitnall? - Trade?

I think in all honesty, and I hate to say it, Lance Whitnall should be traded if we are trading any KPP.

He will always chip in and do his bit but he is not the player everyone thought he was going to be.

I just really cannot find a consistent spot in our line-up.
We have enough tall forward goal kicking options in Fevola, Waite & Fisher with Wiggins now becoming somewhat of a hit-up target across CHF with Matty Lappin kicking a couple every now and then with Betts still to return.
He is just too slow to play KP backline except on players like Rocca and possibly Lucas and he does not have a spot mopping up across half-back like he used to because Heath Scotland does a superb job of it with Houlihan when he is down there.

Hartlett & Kennedy will grow and develop because they are tall KPP and i don't expect Kennedy to do anything too special untill he is 21-22 still so they are off the market in my opinion but i'm not sure if we would get anything for Whitnall but if we could get a high enough pick then yeah I would trade him.
What makes you think Whitnall will be sought by other clubs?

[Bentick's My Man.]

What makes you think Whitnall will be sought by other clubs?

That's what i mean..

Lance IMO is no longer a neccesity at the blues. If we can find a KP backman or a first round pick (both highly unlikely) then a trade should be made.

I understand Lance is captain but I don't believe he gets the job done week in week out. Just far too slow for the competition these days.

If Lance is still a long term prospect at blues (still just 27 years old) then maybe he should be resided to goal square duties to stretch the opposition backs or do to around the ground ruck duties to rest Ackland or Cloke?

[BlueWorld]

That's what i mean..

Lance IMO is no longer a neccesity at the blues. If we can find a KP backman or a first round pick (both highly unlikely) then a trade should be made.

I understand Lance is captain but I don't believe he gets the job done week in week out. Just far too slow for the competition these days.

If Lance is still a long term prospect at blues (still just 27 years old) then maybe he should be resided to goal square duties to stretch the opposition backs or do to around the ground ruck duties to rest Ackland or Cloke?Lance was almost traded 2-3 years ago and wasn't worth that and will be worth even less now. Maybe Sheedy will be stupid enough to have him down at his retirement home to join Campo & Michael but that's about our only hope.

[HBF]

Given that Lance is now the Captain of the Carlton Footy Club, there is no way on god's green earth that he will be traded.

[DIG]

Given that Lance is now the Captain of the Carlton Footy Club, there is no way on god's green earth that he will be traded.
Spot on.

So..what type of players will we draft in this year? Best available? I hope we boost our midfield.

[mediumsizered]

That's what i mean..

Lance IMO is no longer a neccesity at the blues. If we can find a KP backman or a first round pick (both highly unlikely) then a trade should be made.

I understand Lance is captain but I don't believe he gets the job done week in week out. Just far too slow for the competition these days.

If Lance is still a long term prospect at blues (still just 27 years old) then maybe he should be resided to goal square duties to stretch the opposition backs or do to around the ground ruck duties to rest Ackland or Cloke?

What a great idea. Let's show the football world that we, as a club, don't care much for loyalty & don't look after our favorite sons. That would have to make us very appealing to an out of contract, mid-aged player, or a Marc Murphy who has the option of going F/S or nominating to be drafted by one of the clubs at the bottom end of the ladder.

I don't know why we didn't trade Kouta a couple of years ago, or maybe even Ratts or McKay, a few years prior to that. Perhaps we should just trade all our experienced players so we can have 8 or 9 picks in the ND. Then we can spend another 3 or 4 years in the bottom half of the ladder while we develop the kids that replace the experienced players.

FWIW, 19 disposals, 7 marks & 2 goals isn't a bad return for a player that is far too slow for the competition. I bet the Saints would love to see Riewoldt producing those sort of numbers at the moment.

[Will.B.Worth.Da.Waite]

Havn't been bothered to read all the posts here, but read most of ODN's massive one. Based on the list of players he gave that were in the firing line, i would actually say delist Cloke. I know this will raise a lot of controversy, but think about it. I loved the way he played this year, but he's only given us 8 odd games. He has a terrible history with injury. Ackland is starting to perform well, we have Setanta who can hold his own there if required, we have Aisake who is banging on the door for selection and will be playing regular senior footy pretty soon, and then we have Hampson and Jacobs developing. I think we can handle the ruck situation without Cloke, and i don't want to lose any of the others (unless Bannister and Wiggins have poor second half of the seasons). With Aisake's form, he and Ackland can be our ruckmen for next year, with Ackland being signed on for a further year or two if Hampson and Jacobs havnt developed as fast as we would have liked. And then if one of them get injured, Setanta can play a bit there, and it will be no different to this year

[Will.B.Worth.Da.Waite]

Also will Kouta be elligible for to go on the Veterans list or whatever it is called? Because if he keeps playing the way he has this year i think he still has another year left in him

[Bluebear]

When was this going to happen BB? I would have thought Cam was pretty safe for next year, even with his shoulders. Given our lack of experienced ruckman, I would have thought he was very much a required player next year.

Just a warning to some of those raising it as an issue........maybe I was preempting post 51........personally I think he has done more than enough, and for the above reason alone should be retained, let alone the form he was showing.

Someone is going to be a tad unlucky though.

[Andyt30]

Lance Whitnall, & Kouta, will finish their Career with the Blues i'd say if the Blues say delist lance he'll Retire he's got at least 3 or 4 more years in him. when he has one more year then he'll hand the captancy and not before then

isn't Kouta already on the veterans list? lance whitnall hope he gets on the List he deserves it playing all his footy with the Blues from Juniors :)

[Bluebear]

Lance Whitnall, & Kouta, will finish their Career with the Blues i'd say if the Blues say delist lance he'll Retire he's got at least 3 or 4 more years in him. when he has one more year then he'll hand the captancy and not before then

isn't Kouta already on the veterans list? lance whitnall hope he gets on the List he deserves it playing all his footy with the Blues from Juniors :)
Yeah, but apparently he can be counted outside the 38 listed players instead of a rookie (trusting ODN here).

So Kouta could move off the list for a rookie (? Aisake) to be elevated next year, then we delist 3 for the ND - Teague, Raso, McLaren.............?ODN confirm.:o

Any other elevations or selections would require further heads to roll.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yeah, but apparently he can be counted outside the 38 listed players instead of a rookie (trusting ODN here).

So Kouta could move off the list for a rookie (? Aisake) to be elevated next year, then we delist 3 for the ND - Teague, Raso, McLaren.............?ODN confirm.:o

Any other elevations or selections would require further heads to roll.Correct. This year Kouta is a veteran included inside the list of 38 and we added 5 rookies instead of 6. Last year he was a veteran outside the list of 38. Being a veteran means only 50% of his salary is counted under the cap regardless of whether you are inside or outside of the primary list. Clubs can have as many veterans as they want, but the salary savings can only add up to that of a whole person. So if you have 4 veterans, each would have 25% of their salary discounted. It makes sense that you would have your highest paid players as veterans and lower paid veterans not counted as veterans. You can only fill your list with veterans up to a maximum of 40 players. So you could have 36 primary listed players and 4 veterans or 34 primary listed players and 4 veterans with 2 inside the list and two outside and still take on 6 rookies. The only benefit of having Kouta inside the list this year is we did not pay an extra senior player and if he retires we don't have to delist an extra player by first lodgement. If he plays on, no harm done, we would have had to delist 3 players plus extra for rookie elevations whether he was inside or outside the list.

Next year, we can count Kouta as a veteran outside the primary list of 38 if we want to, and still have 5 rookies making up 44 players all up. If Kouta retires we can still only have 38 players but then have up to 6 rookies, so Kouta would only be taking up a spot we could use for a rookie.

Where Kouta's retirement would be helpful though is because he is included in the 38 this year, we would only need to delist 3 players (Kouta and 2 others) plus another one or two depending on rookie elevations prior to the first list lodgement. So Kouta stays, we have to get rid of 3-5 players right off the bat. If he goes, we get rid of 2-4 players right off the bat.

Those suggesting we have to keep Jackson have to think about 5 players that could be delisted and of those 5 players, choose the one you would like to keep the most and decide whether you would rather them or Jackson, as Jackson has to be elevated next year or be set free.

If you look at McLaren, Teague and Raso going, we are probably looking at Flint, Edwards, Cloke, Hartlett, Saddington or Bannister as being the one that has to be delisted in order to elevate Jackson. How is that opinion holding up now? It is extremely difficult and some decisions may come back to bite us.

The important thing here folks is that I know what I am talking about even if nobody else knows what I am talking about!! :D

[Bluebear]

Clear as mud.:thumbsu::D

[a1118374]

i cant believe some of your guys are talking about cutting ryan jackson or adam hartlett for that matter, that would be a disgrace to see jackson go.

Raso - gone
Teague - gone
McLaren - gone
Kouta - Retired

Bannister - Wiggins - Saddington - Flint ---- will make up the last delistee

definately not jackson, hartlett, lappin or edwards

how is hartlett ahead of them. wiggins is solid backup. and if kennedy takes longer than thought should stay in lineup. the fact that wiggo is playing and harlett isnt should be evidence enough and the other two....if form continues have runs on board to hartletts nothing

[barnesy]

Just a warning to some of those raising it as an issue........maybe I was preempting post 51........personally I think he has done more than enough, and for the above reason alone should be retained, let alone the form he was showing.

Someone is going to be a tad unlucky though.

I think the reason Cam took the surgery was he was guaranteed a one year extension, as opposed to letting it heal naturally and playing on this season.

[ericpascoe]

Let's start with rookies

O'Hailpin - promoted
Jackson - bye bye
Young, Jamison, Jacobs - remain on rookie list (not available for Jackson because he's already had 2 years)

That puts senior list up to 39

Reckon they'll want 4 draft + 1 pre season, meaning list has to be cut to 33.

So, 6 to be cut

Teague
McLaren
Raso
Flint
Koutoufides (retired)

+ 1 of the following

Saddington
Lappin (if retiring)
Hartlett
Cloke
Bannister
Edwards

Would have been a really easy call 2 weeks ago (JB) but not so sure now. Would still be JB for mine but perhaps Cam Cloke (hard, but he will always be injury prone)

[DIG]

This was done in another thread recently but the scenario in my reckoning is this:

We currently have 38 senior listed players with 5 rookies. Cutting rookies does nothing to cull the list (obvious I know but spelling it out). Kouta is a veteran inside the list. If Kouta wants to play on we can make him a veteran outside the list meaning we have 38 listed players, one veteran and can still maintain 5 rookies. So in effect Kouta would only take the spot of a rookie. If Kouta was to retire, we have no other veterans and would have to go into next year with 38 listed players and 6 rookies. So this is important ... while he is this year, he didn't need to be if we wanted it that way. i.eKouta is not taking up a spot on our senior list.

So we have 38 spots to play with aside from Kouta.

By the first deadline, we have to reduce that list to 35 and rookie promotions have to be announced. So if Aisake is promoted and that is almost certain, then we have to lose 4 to compensate. Jackson is an interesting one as he was so close to being promoted last year but if he is not promoted this year, he is gone. Not sure that he deserves to be cut. If he is promoted we have to lose 5 by first list lodgement. We will assume he suffers a crueller cut than even Jesse Smith last year.

So 4 to go. McLaren and Teague have already packed their bags. Raso is the next in line. Now Kouta can go as part of this initial four because he is inside the 38 this year but as we have discussed, when all is said and done he is only taking a spot reserved for a rookie so if he wants to play on we should accommodate him.

Based on that, we do not have a 4th player to delist for the first lodgement even.

We know that Kennedy or any first year players will not be cut. The first year players are on two year contracts anyway. Russell is another top 10 draft pick who has more time and is contracted to boot.

Other non first year players that have not cemented a spot yet:

Wiggins, Bannister, Saddington, Hartlett, Flint, Betts, Bower, Cloke, Ackland, Blackwell, Bentick, Edwards.

I will throw in Lappin as in the risky zone due to age and minor consistency issues.

So one of those 12 have to go by first lodgement.

If we finish say 12th, we will have picks 5, 22 (Tiges will get a pre second round PP), 38, 54. I suspect we will not use 54 as that would be a greater risk than cutting a semi required player. I think we have to use 3 national draft picks according to the rules.

Technically, we can limit the damage to McLaren, Teague and Raso if Kouta retires, and go in to next year with 38 on the list (0 veterans) and 6 rookies. We can then even rookie Raso if nobody else takes him. We use the minimum 3 national draft picks and no pick in the PSD. We do have the luxury of waiting to see who will be available in the PSD before deciding whether to use that pick or not as well. Pick 5 in the PSD is not likely to be any better than one of the players we are letting go.

[b]In summary:

Out: McLaren, Teague, Raso
Retire: Kouta
Rookie addition: Raso
National Draft: Picks 5, 22, 38
Preseason Draft: None

Nice and tidy. Lose only McLaren and Teague (and Jackson from the rookie list)

However ... Kouta stays, one of the above mentioned 13 has to go. Jackson elevated, one of those 13 has to go. Use an extra ND pick, one of those 13 has to go. Use PSD pick, one of those 13 have to go. So now we are looking at between 3-7 players going.

Trade week is the key here if we do not want to make hard cuts to a list with plenty of depth. Would we trade a Hartlett or a Bower type, package it with pick 38 and try to get a first rounder or early second rounder? We then open up another space on our list and still only need to use our first three picks inside Pick 22. This gives us a huge shot of having 3 hits with those picks.

There is no way Bower would be simply delisted. Zero chance. We would be unlikely to delist Hartlett either but may try and get something for him. Edwards is safer than Hartlett and on the verge of senior selection. Wiggins is contracted for next year and Ackland for two more years. They will not be delisted IMO as their salaries would be counted in next years cap, and that is wasted money because even if we have room next year, we should front load contracts to avoid the squeeze when others put their hand up for more after that.

I have Bentick in there but he is all but safe. 90% cemented IMO. Lappin in his current form can play on if he wishes. We now have a list of 9 to play with, 6 if you consider we will not let Bower, Edwards and Hartlett go for nothing given the develop put into them.

Those 6 are Bannister, Saddington, Flint, Betts, Cloke, Blackwell. Of those, only Flint has shown nothing this year but was elevated for a reason and is young. Would be a harsh cut but possible. Eddie is almost in the Bentick category - 90% cemented but being injured while the team is performing can be a career killer. Eddie will stay though. Blackers is half cemented and should remain as he has performance and age on his side. That leaves 4.

Remember above? Up to 4 extra cuts possibly needed ... 4 players left.

Bannister, Saddington, Flint and Cloke. If Bannister maintains some consistency for the rest of the year, he will be safe but previous inconsistency or lack of opportunity has given him some negative rep so he needs to maintain this form surge. Saddo will be cut if he gets injured again this year. Age is not on his side but depth in our defence is. Flint and Cloke are right in the gun all of a sudden and who would have thought that earlier in the year as Cloke was fantastic, but the fact is he is injury prone and may never get over that. There must have been a plan for Flint because he was elevated above Jackson but he might be the unluckiest rookie promotion in a long time because he has not suffered a form loss.

Apologies how long winded and hard to read this is, but when you rationalise it, and look at most likely scenarios, there will be players lost from our list that really deserve a chance to remain.

How long since we have said that?

It aint getting any easier next year either as we make decisions on rookies like Jacobs and players like Lappin have to retire and players like Houlihan, Blackwell, Wiggins, Bower, Russell and Bentick have to fight tooth and nail to remain.

Incremental improvement every time a required player suffers a cruel cut. That is how we will go from possibles to probables. Stay tuned for raised eyebrows at the end of the year and be prepared to see former Carlton players now getting a chance at other clubs and probably doing well. When was the last time Carlton offcuts had value elsewhere? That is one of the measures of a quality list.

Top post ODN.

Just a question - how far off is Lance from being eligible for the veterans list?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Top post ODN.

Just a question - how far off is Lance from being eligible for the veterans list?A couple of years. Meets the seasons played criteria but not the age criteria. Has to be 30 as of Jan 1 of the season he is listed.

[barrel47]

One thing noone has considered is the depth and strength of this year's draft.
All good to delist players willy nilly, but they need to be replaced.
It is a skinny year, so it would be unlikely we'd have more than 4 picks and a PSD selection would only be dependent on available quality.
We have worked our list hard and have brought some very good young talent in.
IMHO only Raso has proven that he is not up to AFL standard.
Match Committee will make their calls on Jacko & Aisake.
Personally, I think Aisake will be promoted, and if Jacko is on our list, it will be because he will be re-drafted, not promoted.

I'd like to see:
Out:
Teague;
McLaren;
Raso;
Kouta;
Whitnall (Trade Consideration? Adelaide, Fremantle, Melbourne or Western Bulldogs)

In:
Aisake (promoted);
Pick 2 (Trent Cotchin);
Pick 19;
Pick 35;
Player or pick for Lance (Ryan Murphy? or involved in a 3 way to secure Pavlich to Port?);
2 Rookies (#2 + Jackson);

[Jock]

Trade Houlihan - I don't want to hear about his stats, I've seen enough of him. It's pretty ironic i'm writing this after he played a really good game in a good role for us.
I don't expect all our players to be super tough as we need link men but he has a rubber spine. He never puts his head over the ball, sometimes you just have to. He is worth something to a top side that needs a finisher coming off the bench. He gradually goes down the rankings on our list and next year more will pass him. So get something for him at seasons end as we will eventually delist him for nothing.

He is the only player I would trade and agree with the general thought of the delistings. It's great to see that list is getting smaller.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I highly doubt we will be getting Pick 2.

[Jeremias]

McLaren-100% gone
Teague-100% gone
Bannister-has played brilliantly the last 2 games, but the reality is that he isn't in our best 22, and is only playing now because of injuries. Next year he will go back to being a depth player, and I'd rather see the developing kids fill that role.
Raso-unlucky. Injuries have hurt his chances badly. Hasn't showed enough. Needs a huge 2nd half of the year to be retained. I think we may rookie list him.
Koutoufides-will ponder playing on, but I think that he will retire. Will help the club somewhat if he does, and I'm just not sure whether his body will cope with another year.

That is 5 players potentially gone. That would mean 3 picks in the drafts (3 in ND, 0 in PSD, or 2 and 1), and we could promote both Jackson and Aisake. I'm not sure that 3 picks is enough for us, so this is where it gets tricky. Lappin retiring will give us another pick. And then something will need to happen. Someone might be an unlucky delistee (Saddo) or we may be involved in a trade to offload someone (Hartlett or someone else, depending on the offers). If one of those happen, we can have 5 picks-4 in the ND and 1 in the PSD probably. That would be enough.

So:
Out-Kouta, Lappin (retired), Bannister, Teague, McLaren, Raso (delisted), Hartlett/??? (traded)
In-Aisake, Jackson (rookie list), ND pick, ND pick, ND pick, ND pick, ND/PSD pick, Raso (rookie list)

[HBF]

So:
Out-Kouta, Lappin (retired), Bannister, Teague, McLaren, Raso (delisted), Hartlett/??? (traded)
In-Aisake, Jackson (rookie list), ND pick, ND pick, ND pick, ND pick, ND/PSD pick, Raso (rookie list)

Not so sure about Jackson going onto the senior list J. Sure, he has shown a bit for the Ants and Carlton, but I just think he might go the same way as Jesse Smith. I've seen quite a few TAC Cup games this year, and trial games yesterday and today, and there are a good spread of mids out there.

As for Aisake, we need to see what he can do at AFL level, and not just promote him for the sake of it. I'd say he'd be 50/50 at best to be retained next year.

Before people have a crack at me for this, just remember there is a massive step up from VFL to AFL, and Aisake has yet to play an AFL game, so there has to be some uncertainty about his elevation. Furthermore, no-one has come onto the list for Cloke as yet, and if Aisake was considered close to selection, then he would have been elevated already.

[Jeremias]

Not so sure about Jackson going onto the senior list J. Sure, he has shown a bit for the Ants and Carlton, but I just think he might go the same way as Jesse Smith. I've seen quite a few TAC Cup games this year, and trial games yesterday and today, and there are a good spread of mids out there.

As for Aisake, we need to see what he can do at AFL level, and not just promote him for the sake of it. I'd say he'd be 50/50 at best to be retained next year.

Before people have a crack at me for this, just remember there is a massive step up from VFL to AFL, and Aisake has yet to play an AFL game, so there has to be some uncertainty about his elevation. Furthermore, no-one has come onto the list for Cloke as yet, and if Aisake was considered close to selection, then he would have been elevated already.

Jackson has shown enough for me to think that he will be elevated. He is close to playing senior footy for the Blues as it is.

As for Aisake, he has developed beautifully from all reports. Obviously we need to see what he has to offer, but from what I have both seen and heard so far from him, he is a very promising player who is well worth persevering with.

Pagan said that Aisake is very close to playing senior footy for the Blues, which is a great effort from him. He should get his chance before the year is out. Remember what happened with Setanta-played 1 game before being elevated permenantly, vs the Tigers (remember, the game we got slaughtered in), and he kicked a goal with his first and only touch. Many were doubting he'd make it, and he is really showing now that he will (and has). From all reports, Aisake is well ahead of Setanta in terms of development at the same age, so he is worth promoting.

[HBF]

I'm still not sold on Jackson, but we'll see how he goes in the second half of the year.

As for Aisake, he needs to show what he can do in the AFL before we can make an informed decision on him. From what I can recall, Setanta had better and more consistent games with the Ants before he got promoted.

I also know that there are alot of good ruckman coming through in this years draft, so the club need to be mindful of that as well.

[Aussie Joe]

Man,

My tune has changed from the start of year. In particular the good form of Banno and Saddo.

My mid-year predication is:

Senior List

Out:

Kouta (retire)
Teague (delist)
McLaren (delist)
Raso (delist)
Flint (delist)

In:
Aisake O'hAilpin
3 picks in National Draft
1 pick in preseason draft

Rookie List

Promote:
Aisake O'hAilpin

Delist:
Jackson
Jamison

Keep for another year:
Jacobs
Young

Three new rookies.

[macca69]

Let's start with rookies

O'Hailpin - promoted
Jackson - bye bye
Young, Jamison, Jacobs - remain on rookie list (not available for Jackson because he's already had 2 years)

That puts senior list up to 39

Reckon they'll want 4 draft + 1 pre season, meaning list has to be cut to 33.

So, 6 to be cut

Teague
McLaren
Raso
Flint
Koutoufides (retired)

+ 1 of the following

Saddington
Lappin (if retiring)
Hartlett
Cloke
Bannister
Edwards

Would have been a really easy call 2 weeks ago (JB) but not so sure now. Would still be JB for mine but perhaps Cam Cloke (hard, but he will always be injury prone)

Interesting you think Jackson will go, I reckon he can play, and at the start of the year I thought he'd be a big chance to get onto the senior list, why do you think he'll get the flick?

Agree on Cloke, there were a few other clubs who looked at drafted him last year in the PSD, but thought his shoulders were too bad, and he'd never get them right again. He played some decent footy, but I reckon he'll get delisted at the end of the year because of his bung shoulders.

[deluxeman]

Interesting you think Jackson will go, I reckon he can play, and at the start of the year I thought he'd be a big chance to get onto the senior list, why do you think he'll get the flick?


He can definitely play but injuries this year haven't helped his cause. The problem is that he is the second rookie in line to get promoted, after Aisake and assuming we're taking 4-5 ND picks, it might be hard to find another player to delist to promote Jackson.
Will very likely come down to the retirements at the end of the year and what happens to Kouta, Lappin and Lance.

[mighty blues luke]

don't think cloke will go. did enough in the 8 games he played so will not be delisted as he is in best 22 when fit. also think there was definite discussion he would only have the season ending surgery if he was promised another year after his current 1 year contract.

[The Grover]

I'm still not sold on Jackson, but we'll see how he goes in the second half of the year.

As for Aisake, he needs to show what he can do in the AFL before we can make an informed decision on him. From what I can recall, Setanta had better and more consistent games with the Ants before he got promoted.

I also know that there are alot of good ruckman coming through in this years draft, so the club need to be mindful of that as well.

What are the options with Aisake?

If we don't put him on our list, can he become our mature age rookie(replacing Young) or is he still too young to qualify.

I still think he will probably go on our list of 38 at seasons end.

[The Grover]

Man,

My tune has changed from the start of year. In particular the good form of Banno and Saddo.

My mid-year predication is:

Senior List

Out:

Kouta (retire)
Teague (delist)
McLaren (delist)
Raso (delist)
Flint (delist)

In:
Aisake O'hAilpin
3 picks in National Draft
1 pick in preseason draft

Rookie List

Promote:
Aisake O'hAilpin

Delist:
Jackson
Jamison

Keep for another year:
Jacobs
Young

Three new rookies.

I agree with your delistings, Flint needs to show something with Ants this year otherwise he could be a casualty.

Lappin & Banno will probably be in the mix as well.

[bibi01]

some great discussions on here.

a lot of things can effect list managment as we all know. Form, injury, trade and the necessity to turn the list over.

if hampson or aisake step up then this could harm clokes chances of remaining on the list.

if hartlett can get an take his opportunity as a defender this could spell trouble for saddington
it could also release setanta as a 2nd ruckman

if blackwell can continue improving and grab his opportunity by the scruff of the neck, then this could apply pressure to jackson

bannister if he can put together 10 solid games for the remainder of the season he could be safe.

if russell continue to make progress than this could mean the end for bannister.

the great thing about this discussion is we have options and we have tough decisions to make, this is actually a good sign for the club and shows were are building our depth.

In saying all this a lot is going to depend on the VFL re structure, this could turn everything on its head.

our out of contract players are:

bentick 2007
whitnall 2007
saddington 2007
mclaren 2007
lappin 2007
teague 2007
s o'halpin 2007
bower 2007
hartlett 2007
stevens 2007
cloke 2007
scotland 2007
bannister 2007
edwards 2007
jackson 2007
flint 2007
koutoufidies 2007
carazzo 2007
a o'halpin 2007

[bibi01]

What are the options with Aisake?

If we don't put him on our list, can he become our mature age rookie(replacing Young) or is he still too young to qualify.

I still think he will probably go on our list of 38 at seasons end.

no he can't become a mature age rookie,

mature age rookie is only for players who have not previously been on an AFL list. once you have been on alist you are ineligible for mature age rookie.

[AndyWalkersGirl]

some great discussions on here.

a lot of things can effect list managment as we all know. Form, injury, trade and the necessity to turn the list over.

if hampson or aisake step up then this could harm clokes chances of remaining on the list.

if hartlett can get an take his opportunity as a defender this could spell trouble for saddington
it could also release setanta as a 2nd ruckman

if blackwell can continue improving and grab his opportunity by the scruff of the neck, then this could apply pressure to jackson

bannister if he can put together 10 solid games for the remainder of the season he could be safe.

if russell continue to make progress than this could mean the end for bannister.

the great thing about this discussion is we have options and we have tough decisions to make, this is actually a good sign for the club and shows were are building our depth.

In saying all this a lot is going to depend on the VFL re structure, this could turn everything on its head.

our out of contract players are:

bentick 2007
whitnall 2007
saddington 2007
mclaren 2007
lappin 2007
teague 2007
s o'halpin 2007
bower 2007
hartlett 2007
stevens 2007
cloke 2007
scotland 2007
bannister 2007
edwards 2007
jackson 2007
flint 2007
koutoufidies 2007
carazzo 2007
a o'halpin 2007

Good post. Sums it all up basically.

A lot of 'ifs' and 'what ifs' throughough your post, which really indicates the position the club is in at the moment in regards to the players. The rest of the season will make or break or those players.

Of that list, I'd excpect only 4 or 5 won't get their contracts renewed next year.

[bibi01]

i just want to show the picks in the PSD for the last few years. Not a lot of gold in there but there is some gold to be found.

IMO if we can strike a deal with a player prior to PSD, then we should look at using our PSD pick, otherwise I would be reluctant to use it.

2007
player - games playerd since drafted
Cain Ackland 12
Malcolm Michael 12
Ben Ross 0
Adam Cockshell 2
Josh Thurgood 1
Kent Kingsley 3
Matthew Clarke 6
Chris Bryan 5
Cameron Cloke 6

2006
player - games playerd since drafted
Dylan McLaren 13
Sam Iles 5
Brent Guerra 27
Scott Camporeale 15
Matthew White 15
Ben Fixter 27
Cameron Thurley 5
Matt Thomas 12
Jason Porplyzia 18
Chris Heffernan 25

2005
player - games playerd since drafted
Trent Knobel 21
Blake Caracella 27
Edward Betts 48
Lance Picioane 15
Jarrad Schofield 12
Ty Zantuck 9
Elijah Ware 2

2004
player - games playerd since drafted
Jade Rawlings 32
Nick Stevens 65
Phillip Read 34
Ben Marsh 7
Paul Koulouriotis 18
Shane Harvey 3
Doug Scott 0
Michael Johnson 44
Jacob Surjan 34
Luke Weller 7
Josh Mahoney 66

[Bluebear]

i just want to show the picks in the PSD for the last few years. Not a lot of gold in there but there is some gold to be found.

IMO if we can strike a deal with a player prior to PSD, then we should look at using our PSD pick, otherwise I would be reluctant to use it.


2005
player - games playerd since drafted
Trent Knobel 21
Blake Caracella 27
Edward Betts 48
Lance Picioane 15
Jarrad Schofield 12
Ty Zantuck 9
Elijah Ware 2

2004
player - games playerd since drafted
Jade Rawlings 32
Nick Stevens 65
Phillip Read 34
Ben Marsh 7
Paul Koulouriotis 18
Shane Harvey 3
Doug Scott 0
Michael Johnson 44
Jacob Surjan 34
Luke Weller 7
Josh Mahoney 66

A couple of standouts there.
Just goes to show that if people look at our drafting rationally, rather than........geez, why did we pick player X when the guy taken 10 places behind him is a star.............

then they would see we have had our share of luck as well.......one might even venture to say we made some good decisions every now and then.

Bold, I know.

[Homer Simpson for Lance]

A couple of standouts there.
Just goes to show that if people look at our drafting rationally, rather than........geez, why did we pick player X when the guy taken 10 places behind him is a star.............

then they would see we have had our share of luck as well.......one might even venture to say we made some good decisions every now and then.

Bold, I know.

What a Joke !

Not bold at all.......but note.......Carlton were extremely keen to take Knobel ahead of Betts, if he was available to us with our pick......but Richmond had 1st pick and committed to him.

To give recruiters kudos for picking the very highly rated Nick Stevens ahead of the rubble behind him is ridiculous. Its like giving kudos to a racing car driver for picking a Ferrari before a bus for a motor race...........he was so obvious a choice it wasn't even a choice !!!!

[BlueWorld]

To give recruiters kudos for picking the very highly rated Nick Stevens ahead of the rubble behind him is ridiculous. Its like giving kudos to a racing car driver for picking a Ferrari before a bus for a motor race...........he was so obvious a choice it wasn't even a choice !!!!
Couldn't have been that obvious when a certain other club had first choice and chose Jade Rawlings ahead of him. I hear they have no regrets about it!:o

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Couldn't have been that obvious when a certain other club had first choice and chose Jade Rawlings ahead of him. I hear they have no regrets about it!:oCome on, we all know the Dogs and Hawks did a dodgy deal to get Rawlings into the PSD. They could hardly change it once Stevens fell into the draft as well. Too many loose lips about. Lachlan Veale, an unknown, untried ruckman for Pick 6? Yeah right.

It was obvious but the Dogs had committed themselves, much like Carlton had done with Ackland in this years PSD.

[Bluebear]

Not bold at all.......but note.......Carlton were extremely keen to take Knobel ahead of Betts, if he was available to us with our pick......but Richmond had 1st pick and committed to him.


Fair enough, just saying that once knobel was gone, Betts was a good get compared to the others around him.

[Homer Simpson for Lance]

Let's start with rookies

O'Hailpin - promoted
Jackson - bye bye
Young, Jamison, Jacobs - remain on rookie list (not available for Jackson because he's already had 2 years)

That puts senior list up to 39

Reckon they'll want 4 draft + 1 pre season, meaning list has to be cut to 33.

So, 6 to be cut

Teague
McLaren
Raso
Flint
Koutoufides (retired)

+ 1 of the following

Saddington
Lappin (if retiring)
Hartlett
Cloke
Bannister
Edwards

Would have been a really easy call 2 weeks ago (JB) but not so sure now. Would still be JB for mine but perhaps Cam Cloke (hard, but he will always be injury prone)

Would love to have an even money bet with you Lenny Pascoe that Jacko will get a senior list position, I think he is a shoe in.
I doubt Lappin will play on.
Saddington and Hartlett wont both be on the list.
I dont want to see Ross Young given another year, just dont see any upside.

Next year will be a really impotant year for the 2004/05 draftees with the likelihood of Kouta and/or Lappo retiring there should be an opportunity for 1 or 2 kids to grab the chance and cement a spot.

Hartlett and Blackwell if still on the list will really need step up after 4 years in the list. I think it will be JR's break out year with more confidence due to physical development

[bibi01]

these are our our current of contract players

teague- gone
mclaren- gone
stevens- safe pending medical report
bentick
whitnall
saddington
s o'halpin
bower
hartlett
cloke
scotland
bannister
edwards
flint
carazzo
koutoufidies
lappin

jackson
jacobs
jamison
young

[truebluenavyblues]

Was looking on the Fremantle board and noticed they had a sticky identical to this was wondering if it would be cool to have one on here.

Couldn't hurt and seems to be getting decent use on the Dockers board.

Just an idea post your thoughts.:thumbsu:

[Pamam]

well my thoughts are:

Definite Delistings
1. Teague
2. McLaren
3. Raso

More than Likely Delistings
1. Saddo
2. Bannister

Stiff Delistings
1. Jackson (have to make a choice on him as this is his last year on the rookie list. we must sign him or get rid of him)
2. Cloke (say it depends on the development of the younger ruckman)

[mightymightyblues]

well my thoughts are:

Definite Delistings
1. Teague
2. McLaren
3. Raso

More than Likely Delistings
1. Saddo
2. Bannister

Stiff Delistings
1. Jackson (have to make a choice on him as this is his last year on the rookie list. we must sign him or get rid of him)
2. Cloke (say it depends on the development of the younger ruckman)

Cloke is no doubt our best tap ruckman. he teams up extremely well with stevens and they can be pretty dangerous when they return. Clokes done just about everything his been asked to do so far. I wouldnt delist jacko either, i think his still got a lot to offer and his speed is the factor we may have been missing.

[BlueYoss]

Was looking on the Fremantle board and noticed they had a sticky identical to this was wondering if it would be cool to have one on here.

Couldn't hurt and seems to be getting decent use on the Dockers board.

Just an idea post your thoughts.:thumbsu:

Are you trying to break the record for sticky requests in a week?

[Jeremias]

Kouta (retired)
McLaren
Teague
Bannister
Raso
Saddington

Are all gone IMO. Saddo may stay.

[The Old Dark Navy's]

See List Management at Years End thread. Plenty of discussion on this very point.

[truebluenavyblues]

Are you trying to break the record for sticky requests in a week?no it's just a thought.

BTW the bullants one was a sub-forum idea.

[TheGeneral]

Delist:

Mclaren
Teague
Raso
Bannister - Two good games isn't enough to save him. The development of Bower, Hartlett, Flint, Austin & Jameson appears to be on track. They should be played ahead of a journeyman like Bannister.

Retired(or delisted):

Koutoufides
Lappin
Saddington - to keep a space on the list for the PSD
Ross Young(rookie list) - not good enough

Promote:

Jackson
Aisake O'hAilpin

Trades:

Houlihan: For a second round pick. It's time to get rid of this Big Girl's Blouse and draft a player who puts the team first.
Hartlett: His game on the weekend sounds encouraging, but I would consider trading him for someone like Meesen or Deluca if they're interested.
Pagan: straight swap for Voss, Ratten, Pike or Bond.

That should give us four good draft picks the first three rounds and a pick in the PSD to use on another kid or an out of contract player like Cameron Cloke.

[Left Footed Cat]

Delist:

Mclaren
Teague
Raso
Bannister - Two good games isn't enough to save him. The development of Bower, Hartlett, Flint, Austin & Jameson appears to be on track. They should be played ahead of a journeyman like Bannister.

Retired(or delisted):

Koutoufides
Lappin
Saddington - to keep a space on the list for the PSD
Ross Young(rookie list) - not good enough

Promote:

Jackson
Aisake O'hAilpin

Trades:

Houlihan: For a second round pick. It's time to get rid of this Big Girl's Blouse and draft a player who puts the team first.
Hartlett: His game on the weekend sounds encouraging, but I would consider trading him for someone like Meesen or Deluca if they're interested.
Pagan: straight swap for Voss, Ratten, Pike or Bond.

That should give us four good draft picks the first three rounds and a pick in the PSD to use on another kid or an out of contract player like Cameron Cloke.
Not bad, I think Lance may retire aswell.

[HBF]

bentick 2007 - 2 year deal
whitnall 2007 - retire
saddington 2007 - 1 year deal
mclaren 2007 - delist
lappin 2007 - retire
teague 2007 - delist
s o'halpin 2007 - 2 year deal
bower 2007 - 2 year deal
hartlett 2007 - 2 year deal
stevens 2007 - 2 year deal
cloke 2007 - 1 year deal
scotland 2007 - Wouldn't be adverse to shop him around
bannister 2007 - delist
edwards 2007 - 2 year deal
jackson 2007 - delist
flint 2007 - 1 year deal
koutoufidies 2007 - retire
carazzo 2007 - 2 year deal
a o'halpin 2007 - want to see what he can do at senior level, but i'd still give him 1 year

This is what I think might happen.

[Pamam]

[/b]


Cloke is no doubt our best tap ruckman. he teams up extremely well with stevens and they can be pretty dangerous when they return. Clokes done just about everything his been asked to do so far. I wouldnt delist jacko either, i think his still got a lot to offer and his speed is the factor we may have been missing.



like i said they would be stiff if they got Delisted.
Preferably i would have Jackson playing right now rather than Blackwell.

With a bit more size Jackson will be a decent player. But considering its his 2nd year on the rookie list we need to either keep him or get rid of him, and unfortunately based on injuries this year he hasn't been able to play that much, which hopefully isnt the deciding factor to get rid of him

[Bluebear]

This is what I think might happen.
Shop Scotty around. Interesting.
What do you think we would get? Player or pick?

Personally (and not just because he's my Buddy), I think we need him as he is one of few consistent players we have, great skills on both sides, shows lots of leadership around the packs, directing guys to positions etc, and has stood up in that regard with Stevo out.
Does get exposed for pace going the other way though.

[bluegal1983]

Shop Scotty around. Interesting.
What do you think we would get? Player or pick?

Personally (and not just because he's my Buddy), I think we need him as he is one of few consistent players we have, great skills on both sides, shows lots of leadership around the packs, directing guys to positions etc, and has stood up in that regard with Stevo out.
Does get exposed for pace going the other way though.

I agree with you BB. Scotland is an important part of our team now and in the future. He needs to remain.

[blues4flag]

Shop Scotty around. Interesting.
What do you think we would get? Player or pick?

Personally (and not just because he's my Buddy), I think we need him as he is one of few consistent players we have, great skills on both sides, shows lots of leadership around the packs, directing guys to positions etc, and has stood up in that regard with Stevo out.
Does get exposed for pace going the other way though.

Agree. Don't see the logic in trading one of our few good, consistent senior players.