Quiet on Kosi [Archive]

Bluebear

11 Jun 2007, 00:39

There has been a lot of discussion about potential player trades etc, and normally it drives me mad, because the subject choice.......Judd, Riewoldt......would be highly sought after.

Just wondering whether people thought Kosi would be as highly sought after.

He is out of contract. He is not having a good year, and his injury history is well documented.

Would we want him.....most likely as a ruck? Would his body hold up to it?
You could definately see some difficulties in contract negotiations with the Saints given his injuries and form.

Personally I think we would take him if he were available, but I'm not so sure that we should. He's not quite Gardiner (injury toll wise), but not far off, and playing more as a forward these days.

What do you think?

Barwick17

11 Jun 2007, 00:45

I have discussed this in regards to the pies and all agreed that stkilda would want too much because he "could" be one of the most damaging stars of the comp but no club could give up alot for a player with his injury list, especially head injuries. May get to his best again but i wouldnt want my club giving up heaps and taking the risk

Bluebear

11 Jun 2007, 00:49

Homer Simpson for Lance

11 Jun 2007, 11:37

They can only trade him if they resign him though.
My premise is really based on the thought that he will want big bucks....and they, based on his recent history may not give it.
He may then be tempted to look elsewhere and walk to the PSD.......its a stretch, but that was my thought process.

They can trade him while he is on list regardless if he is out of contract. It is the one time when players can pressure teams to trade them, as they are uncontracted and if not traded to their satisfaction they can threaten to walk and nominate for the draft. Perfect example was Thornton last year when he was out of contract, wanted to be traded to Hawks, then threatened to nominate for the draft.

Lyon will be trying to secure ruck options, not trade them away. The Swans/Saints/Lyon shutdown game plan creates a lot of stoppages and good rucks are regarded as very important to this gameplan. I think Kosi is best suited to FF where he tore it up for a few games a couple of years ago......he is a logical future replacement for Gehrig if they find ruck alternatives. He wont be traded cheaply !!

nossi5

11 Jun 2007, 11:51

C4[2]Yo`DooR

11 Jun 2007, 11:59

i think you will find if they resign him then they cant trade him. I beleive this rule came in a few years ago when for memory Heffernan for essendon got traded after resigning.
They can trade him, even if they do re-sign him

Similar to what we did with Fevola a couple of seasons back. We re-signed him to ensure that he couldn't walk for nothing into the PSD.

However, if they do re-sign him for big money, then they may be forced to pay a portion of his contract as a sweetener.

As long as the player agree's to the trade, it doesn't matter if he has a contract.

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 12:06

In the end I don't think we should trade for anyone. Nobody of any quality comes for free and I don't want to trade any of our players or early draft picks.

The problem with Kosi is that as a high draft pick player who has shown a bit in the past he's more valuable to the struggling Saints then he would be to anyone else. His price would be fairly high despite his poor form.

C4[2]Yo`DooR

11 Jun 2007, 12:10

IIRC Kosi was close to leaving last time his contract was up for re-newing.

We we're the front runners at that stage, but due to the players on our list at the time - we couldn't give him what he wanted.

It's interesting though - because 2/3 years ago, the Saints were flying and we were struggeling. So I found it strange that he'd eve consider a move to us.

Maybe this time we can pull the deal off ?

KnockOut

11 Jun 2007, 16:16

Yo`DooR;7802898']Maybe this time we can pull the deal off ?With Kennedy and Hartlet coming through I can see Kosi at CHB and as a rotating ruckman. Question is has he passed his prime and will he still be in the side when we're ready for that one day in september?

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 16:18

With Kennedy and Hartlet coming through I can see Kosi at CHB and as a rotating ruckman. Question is has he passed his prime and will he still be in the side when we're ready for that one day in september?
Kosi had a prime? :eek:

Did I blink and miss it?

KnockOut

11 Jun 2007, 16:24

Kosi had a prime? :eek:

Did I blink and miss it?
Yeah didn't last too long, injury had cut it short.
He's 24, is that too late?
Could add the much needed experience at CHB but will he be there for a premiership or to hold the spot until a young kid comes through?

Jeremias

11 Jun 2007, 17:09

Would love Kosi at the Blues, but he is worth a LOT to the Saints and they would ask for way too much in return.

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 18:27

Given that Riewoldt, Dal Santo and Kosi are all out of contract at the end of the year, and what is currently going on down at Linton St., it would take a massive effort for the Saints to keep all 3 IMHO.

What Carlton do have in their favour is a heap of talented kids, and a likely top 5 pick at the end of the yaar. I'm not saying that we will do it, but i'm sure the club could come up with something to get a very good player to Princes Park next year.

The place must be looking more attractive now that Pratt is on board, and we are starting to get things together on field as well.

out of harmes' way

11 Jun 2007, 18:54

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 21:25

Who wants him? Over rated. Played three good games in a row two years ago and that's it. Injury plagued and I'm yet to see him take a game by the scruff of the neck. All this equals Ko-shit-tzke. I'd much prefer Riewoldt.:thumbsd:

Pretty harsh assesment of Kosi there mate. Of course we would rather take one of the Nicks, but if Kosi did fall through the cracks, then I would be more than willing to take him at Princes Park.

AndSmithMustScore

11 Jun 2007, 21:28

Forget about Kosi, he's never going to be a star.

Seaby is the man to go after.

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 21:33

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 21:42

Actually looking at our list I'm not sure we need another ruckman. With Setanta stepping up as a potential ruckman we have: Ackland, Setanta, Cloke, Aisake, Hampson, Jacobs, McLaren.

What happens when Carlos is needed back in defence?
Hampson is still 18 months away from playing senior footy, the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs is still a rookie, and is playing in the seconds for the Ants. And there has to be ???? over Clokes shoulder.

I was having this discussion today with another Carlton supporter, and in my mind, we MUST take another ruckman in this years draft. Would love Kruezer, but if he's gone before we can select him, there are quite a few that we can go with. FWIW, I think there are better ruckman in this years draft than both Aisake and Jacobs.

AndSmithMustScore

11 Jun 2007, 21:42

Actually looking at our list I'm not sure we need another ruckman. With Setanta stepping up as a potential ruckman we have: Ackland, Setanta, Cloke, Aisake, Hampson, Jacobs, McLaren.

McLaren is going to be delisted but overwise I think we've more than got our ruck division covered.

In my mind we trade for a star midfield (such as Dal Santo) or a quality Key Position Defender (highly unlikely that any will be available) or we keep our draft picks and just continue down the road we're currently on. St kilda and Fremantle has proven just how stupid it is to trade your pick away, no matter how good you might think you're list is.

I really hope they put Setanta back to FUB hopefully for the next 7-8 years.

The rest of our rucks are avg or as yet unproven, Seaby would be comming into his prime now.

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere on here or in the paper next years draft we are going to be drafting pretty much all ONB type players.

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 21:51

What happens when Carlos is needed back in defence?
Hampson is still 18 months away from playing senior footy, the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs is still a rookie, and is playing in the seconds for the Ants. And there has to be ???? over Clokes shoulder.

I was having this discussion today with another Carlton supporter, and in my mind, we MUST take another ruckman in this years draft. Would love Kruezer, but if he's gone before we can select him, there are quite a few that we can go with.
You want to pick another ruckman in the draft, despite the fact that we've got 6 of them, just as a safe guard for next year... yet you want to pick a kid who probably won't be ready for three years? WTF?? :confused:

What happens when you want Setanta to go into defense? If Cloke isn't available you pick Aisake or Jacobs or Hampson and give them a taste of AFL footy. You could even give Kennedy a role as a relief ruckman when Ackland needs a rest. We've got plenty of options in the ruck so I don't see why we need to recruit another.

We need midfield options, and key defenders. That's what we need, that's what we should recruit. Sometimes you've just got to trust that our recruiters know what they've doing, that at least one of the three young ruckman they've recruited (we only need one to step up) will make it as an AFL ruckman and that we don't need half of the supplimentary players specialising in a position that only fills 9% of an AFL team.

TheGeneral

11 Jun 2007, 21:53

No, we should try to poach a young midfielder than a Koschitzke who is made of chalk and injury prone.

Someone like Meesen from the Crows in a straight swap for Hartlett or our second round pick. I wouldn't want to give up more than our second round pick for a player who hasn't shown anything or wanted out because he's homesick. We need to keep winning to make this club a more attractive destination than Richmond and the underachieving Saints.

Plus Pratt's bucks. :D

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 22:05

You want to pick another ruckman in the draft, despite the fact that we've got 6 of them, just as a safe guard for next year... yet you want to pick a kid who probably won't be ready for three years? WTF?? :confused:

Of those 6, these are who we have to choose from:

McLaren - All but gone at seasons end, so he needs to be replaced.
Ackland - Servicable at best, and needs to find some from
Cloke - Was our No.1 ruckman before being injured, and there now has to be ??? over his shoulder
Hampson - Nowhere near ready for AFL footy
Jacobs - Playing 2's for the Ants, and needs time
Aisake - Needs to debut this year so we can see what he can do in the AFL. Wonderful athlete, but can look lost and make some mistakes in the VFL.
Kennedy - Can pitch hit in the ruck, but has to get back into the team first.
Carlos - Holding his own in the ruck, and is good around the ground, but I believe his spot should be at FB.

We are still developing our list, and yes we need to draft a ruckman so when our list starts to peak in a couple of years hopefully, we've got Hampson ready to go (hopefully), and another highly raten ruckman that isn't that far off (hopefully).

What happens when you want Setanta to go into defense? If Cloke isn't available you pick Aisake or Jacobs or Hampson and give them a taste of AFL footy. You could even give Kennedy a role as a relief ruckman when Ackland needs a rest. We've got plenty of options in the ruck so I don't see why we need to recruit another.:

For far too long, Carlton have ignored drafting ruckman, and have prefered to trade/PSD ruckman from other clubs - French, McLaren, Ackland and Cloke. We HAVE to start developing our own, and whilst drafting Hampson is a good start, we still need another one this year.

We need midfield options, and key defenders. That's what we need, that's what we should recruit.

Mids - yes
Defenders - No. We've covered that recently by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

What I think we need to do is this:

Pick 1 - Kruezer, or best available mid
Pick 2 - Ruckman (If we didn't get Kruezer), or mid, if we did get Kruezer
Pick 3 onwards - Best available

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 22:23

We are still developing our list, and yes we need to draft a ruckman so when our list starts to peak in a couple of years hopefully, we've got Hampson ready to go (hopefully), and another highly raten ruckman that isn't that far off (hopefully).

For far too long, Carlton have ignored drafting ruckman, and have prefered to trade/PSD ruckman from other clubs - French, McLaren, Ackland and Cloke. We HAVE to start developing our own, and whilst drafting Hampson is a good start, we still need another one this year.
We're developing 4 at the minute, 5 if you count Kennedy as an option, 6 if you count Cloke who's still pretty young. How many ruckman do you want us to develop? :confused:

Mids - yes
Defenders - No. We've covered that recently by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.
You can rule out Jamison here and now. He's gone.

Have a look at our starting 22 and take out: Whitnall, Lappin, Bannister, Saddington, throw Gibbs into the midfield and look at our defense. Bower, Austin, Anderson and Flint will all have to make it if we're to have a defense in two or three years and that's a gamble I'm not willing to make.

JeffDunne

11 Jun 2007, 22:38

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 22:41

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?
He's actually done surprisingly well over the last few games.

As for you're playing list, it's only natural to be interested when it looks like a clubs falling apart and its best players want out.

Besides this thread has moved beyond old chalk bones into a discussion about the recruitment of ruckman and whether we need another.

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 22:42

We're developing 4 at the minute, 5 if you count Kennedy as an option, 6 if you count Cloke who's still pretty young. How many ruckman do you want us to develop? :confused:

Becuase we simply need to replace McLaren when he gets cut at the end of the year, and from what I have seen in the U18's this year, there are better prospects out there than Aisake and Jacobs. Kennedy is NOT a ruckman, and neither is Carlos for that matter.

You can rule out Jamison here and now. He's gone..

Why's that?

Have a look at our starting 22 and take out: Whitnall, Lappin, Bannister, Saddington, throw Gibbs into the midfield and look at our defense. Bower, Austin, Anderson and Flint will all have to make it if we're to have a defense in two or three years and that's a gamble I'm not willing to make.

Lappin and Whitnall have been playing forward for the past few weeks, so they are already out of the defence. Saddo is doing a job at the minute, and his form has been sound, and there is no reason why he couldn't continue next year. Banno played on Johnson for a half against the 'doggies, and then followed C.Cornes around on Saturday night.

FWIW, my back 6 for round 1 next year would be:

Backs: Scotland O'hailpin Saddington
H-Backs: Anderson Thornton Bower

Others we could rotate back through there could be Bannister, Walker and Whitnall.

Jeremias

11 Jun 2007, 22:42

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?

Don't flatter yourself or your team.

We're just interested in the talent that you do have, and the possibility of them wanting to join a team on the rise rather than a sinking ship.

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 22:44

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?

After getting Jezza, Wow Jones, Marcou, Sheldon and a few others, we are just trying to even the ledger. Ackland was an ok start, but we are now going after a bigger fish JD. :p :thumbsu:

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 22:55

Becuase we simply need to replace McLaren when he gets cut at the end of the year, and from what I have seen in the U18's this year, there are better prospects out there than Aisake and Jacobs. Kennedy is NOT a ruckman, and neither is Carlos for that matter.
Carlos could've fooled me the way he's been playing in the ruck. He's not a top quality ruckman yet but he's learning and he's fantastic around the ground.

Better prospects? History has shown that picking who is and isn't a better ruck prospect at U18s level is a pointless exercise, and Aisake could be anything besides. Maybe we will pick up another ruckman but we don't need another ruckman. The only reason we should even look at a ruckman in the draft is if he's considered the best available player at a particular selection.

Why's that?
Mature age. Hasn't shown anything at VFL level.

Lappin and Whitnall have been playing forward for the past few weeks, so they are already out of the defence. Saddo is doing a job at the minute, and his form has been sound, and there is no reason why he couldn't continue next year. Banno played on Johnson for a half against the 'doggies, and then followed C.Cornes around on Saturday night.
Lappin has but Whitnall has been playing in defense. He was tried up forward earlier in the year but surprisingly it didn't work out. Been playing in defence over the last few weeks.

FWIW, my back 6 for round 1 next year would be:

Backs: Scotland O'hailpin Saddington
H-Backs: Anderson Thornton Bower

Others we could rotate back through there could be Bannister, Walker and Whitnall.
If Walker is playing in defense Round 1 next year something has seriously gone wrong. Next year isn't the worry although Anderson and Bower aren't guarenteed players at this point, O'hAilpin struggled in defense and has only shone in the ruck/floating around CHF. We don't draft for next year, what we're looking at is three years down the track when Whitnall, Saddington, Lappin are gone and O'hAilpin will hopefully be a full time ruckman. We need defenders because we're screwed in three years if we think we can just rely on Anderson, Flint and Bower all making it as key defenders who can take a forward and shut him out of a game.

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 23:09

Carlos could've fooled me the way he's been playing in the ruck. He's not a top quality ruckman yet but he's learning and he's fantastic around the ground.

We were thrashed out of the middle on Saturday night, and that's becuase Lade and Brogan completely dominated in the ruck. Carlos has been ok, but his spot is in defence, and not in the ruck.

Better prospects? History has shown that picking who is and isn't a better ruck prospect at U18s level is a pointless exercise, and Aisake could be anything besides. Maybe we will pick up another ruckman but we don't need another ruckman. The only reason we should even look at a ruckman in the draft is if he's considered the best available player at a particular selection.

I can name 2 or 3 players in the U18's that are better prospects than both Jacobs and Aisake, and that doesn't include Kruezer. Every club passed on Jacobs, but these guys WILL be selected in the ND, make no mistakes about that. Furthermore, 2 of the ruckman you are talking about are still rookie listed, so they are not good enough to be on our senior list. McLaren is gone and will be cut at the end of the year, and Hammo, whilst an unbelievable prospect, has only been playing Aussie Rules for 2 years since converting from soccer, and has quite a fair way to go.

Mature age. Hasn't shown anything at VFL level.

Diagree with that statement

Lappin has but Whitnall has been playing in defense. He was tried up forward earlier in the year but surprisingly it didn't work out. Been playing in defence over the last few weeks.

Err, no he hasn't. Whitnall played forward against both Bulldogs and Port. Not sure which game you were watching.

If Walker is playing in defense Round 1 next year something has seriously gone wrong. Next year isn't the worry although Anderson and Bower aren't guarenteed players at this point, O'hAilpin struggled in defense and has only shone in the ruck/floating around CHF. We don't draft for next year, what we're looking at is three years down the track when Whitnall, Saddington, Lappin are gone and O'hAilpin will hopefully be a full time ruckman. We need defenders because we're screwed in three years if we think we can just rely on Anderson, Flint and Bower all making it as key defenders who can take a forward and shut him out of a game.

I said Walker was an option, and didn't have him in my starting 6. There is always the option of moving Waite back there as well, and give some more game time to Wiggins, and even give Edwards a shot in the team as well. Furthermore, there aren't alot of quality defenders in this years draft, and of the few that are any good, they will need time to develop.

siamang

11 Jun 2007, 23:13

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 23:15

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

Obviously you are new, but do yourself a favour and read the rules about entering other teams boards.

The mods on here aren't very lenient to that sort of shyte.

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 23:28

We were thrashed out of the middle on Saturday night, and that's becuase Lade and Brogan completely dominated in the ruck. Carlos has been ok, but his spot is in defence, and not in the ruck.
You expect him to be a top line ruck in his first year in the job? :eek: He's hardly ready to dominate in the ruck yet but that doesn't mean he'll never get their. He's shown far more in the ruck and around the ground then he has as a defender

I can name 2 or 3 players in the U18's that are better prospects than both Jacobs and Aisake, and that doesn't include Kruezer. Every club passed on Jacobs, but these guys WILL be selected in the ND, make no mistakes about that. Furthermore, 2 of the ruckman you are talking about are still rookie listed, so they are not good enough to be on our senior list. McLaren is gone and will be cut at the end of the year, and Hammo, whilst an unbelievable prospect, has only been playing Aussie Rules for 2 years since converting from soccer, and has quite a fair way to go.
A clearly better prospect than Aisake? A 202 cm ruckman who moves like Buddy Franklin, I find that hard to believe. And I find it hard to believe that anyone can definatively state that these players wil be better than him given how difficult it is to identify 18 year old ruckman who'll have the tools when they're 24 to be a quality AFL ruckman. Jacobs fell through because he's a big lumbering ruckman in the old fashion sense who won't be winning any athletic competitions soon. Doesn't mean he won't end up as a better ruckman than anyone from his draft or the one coming up, just that he's never going to be Josh Fraser.

Diagree with that statement
What has he shown that makes you think he'll be kept on the list?

Err, no he hasn't. Whitnall played forward against both Bulldogs and Port. Not sure which game you were watching.
He floated forwards at times but he spent most of the games floating around our defensive half picking up cheap possesions without bothering to pick up a forward. Go watch a replay if you want confirmation.

I said Walker was an option, and didn't have him in my starting 6. There is always the option of moving Waite back there as well, and give some more game time to Wiggins, and even give Edwards a shot in the team as well. Furthermore, there aren't alot of quality defenders in this years draft, and of the few that are any good, they will need time to develop.
Waite isn't a natural defender. He's made that fairly clear and regardless you'd want a guy with that kind of game breaking talent up forward where he'll do the most damage.

We need defenders but if there aren't any available then we don't pick any. It's something we require but there's no point picking up a dud in the vain hope that he might turn things around.

Bluebear

11 Jun 2007, 23:29

After getting Jezza, Wow Jones, Marcou, Sheldon and a few others, we are just trying to even the ledger. Ackland was an ok start, but we are now going after a bigger fish JD. :p :thumbsu:

Lappin and Rice were the start...........they lost points for Davenport though - squared up by Hamill getting a 5 year deal and playing (?) 10 games in that time.......almost made up for it with Ackland, but we could ice it with one of the Nicks.

Bluebear

11 Jun 2007, 23:35

Waite isn't a natural defender. He's made that fairly clear and regardless you'd want a guy with that kind of game breaking talent up forward where he'll do the most damage.

Hmmmm, I think Nick Riewoldt would disagree.
Just because he hasn't learned the discipline of defending doesn't mean he isn't a natural.........just may not have been fully tapped.
FWIW I prefer him forwards, but if the match up is there then bring it on.

You're both right, and wrong on Lance.
He has played forward and back against the Power, and played forward and left back (on the bench) vs the dogs.

lopezz

11 Jun 2007, 23:38

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

And how would kosi get a gig at the blues?? The bloke needs crutches. Eddy Betts would beat him in the ruck, just bump him in the first contest!!! The saints we all love to know are coming back to town and it would be just like them to keep hoping a guy in a wheel chair is gonna win them a flag! times up saints, you missed out AGAIN!
And thats what will happen to the blues if we look to take on these 'special' footballers! keep up the youth! put long hard thought into a Kerr style player and wait!

gandaal

11 Jun 2007, 23:43

Hmmmm, I think Nick Riewoldt would disagree.
Just because he hasn't learned the discipline of defending doesn't mean he isn't a natural.........just may not have been fully tapped.
FWIW I prefer him forwards, but if the match up is there then bring it on.
No doubt he would, but they'd be six or seven others who would agree with my assessment. Just because he's not a natural defender doesn't mean he can't perform a job in defense if he's the best player suited for it (such as Riewoldt) but he won't be playing out a season at CHB any time soon.

Lukesta63

11 Jun 2007, 23:52

HBF

11 Jun 2007, 23:52

Not that I am conceeding the point here gandaal, but lets just agree to disagree. We're clearly looking at this from a differing point of veiw. Fair enough?

Bluebear

11 Jun 2007, 23:53

Waite isn't a natural defender. He's made that fairly clear

No doubt he would, but they'd be six or seven others who would agree with my assessment. Just because he's not a natural defender doesn't mean he can't perform a job in defense if he's the best player suited for it (such as Riewoldt) but he won't be playing out a season at CHB any time soon.

So I would think then, that despite the mistakes he made in the Lions game, it's fairly clear that he is a more than capable defender, and given that he hasn't been brought up doing it, one might argue that he looks very natural at times.

Are you confusing natural ability with a career backman, who has been brought up with the rules and disciplines of a defender.

You could argue that for an attacking player to do what he did to Nick that its quite natural, but he has much to learn to avoid the mistakes of the Lions match...........not trying to be argumentative, just a different point of view.

and again, for the record, I prefer him forward unless the match up dictate.:)

Gilly1972

12 Jun 2007, 00:10

FWIW, at this stage, the only ruckman I would look at in the second round is McEvoy....he could well be gone by then, is also only 199cm, and has been playing as a KPP for Murray, swapping into the ruck with Simspon (205cm), not sure I would be using a second round pick on a ruckman. If we take one I would be looking at another on the rookie list. The Cloke and Ackland experiments show to me that we have faith in Zaccy and Hammo, and just need to wait a few years. Not opposed to drafting more ruckman, but lets make sure we maximise the chances they will be top rung....as gandaal said, drafting ruckman is really a bit of a lottery.

gandaal

12 Jun 2007, 02:35

Several posters here say we've got our defence covered.....so why have we conceded the most points so far this season.
Personally I feel we need KPP in defence, a nuggety back pocket and a star ruckman
E.g: Ben Rutten/Adam Hunter
Wirrapunda/Enright
Dean Cox

How many star ruckamn are there in the comp at any one time? Currently there's Cox and Sandilands (is he even a star or is he just a player with huge potential?)

Maybe Lade. Maybe Brogan (Port has the best ruck duo in the league). Maybe Charman. Maybe Everitt (he's a bit old and doesn't use the ball as well as he used to).

Quality rucks are pretty rare and extremely difficult to find. I don't want to end up like Brisbane or North in an endless search for a top class ruckman and end up with one good ruckman, a couple of average ones rotting on the list, and a couple of kids not getting a game. I'd rather take the mids and KPP we desperately need and hope that the prospects we do have stand up.

So I would think then, that despite the mistakes he made in the Lions game, it's fairly clear that he is a more than capable defender, and given that he hasn't been brought up doing it, one might argue that he looks very natural at times.

Are you confusing natural ability with a career backman, who has been brought up with the rules and disciplines of a defender.

You could argue that for an attacking player to do what he did to Nick that its quite natural, but he has much to learn to avoid the mistakes of the Lions match...........not trying to be argumentative, just a different point of view.

and again, for the record, I prefer him forward unless the match up dictate.
We must've been watching a different Waite because the Waite I've been watching in defense was beaten so often that he was sent back to the forward line where he made an immediate impact. I'm willing to admit that he thrashed Riewoldt, which is great because now we have the perfect player to play on Riewoldt in the future, but his impact on other opponents ranged from break even to beaten.

The experiment of Waite at CHB for the most part failed. Surely that's clear to everyone?

Not that I am conceeding the point here gandaal, but lets just agree to disagree. We're clearly looking at this from a differing point of veiw. Fair enough?
No problems, it was an interesting discussion :thumbsu:

C4[2]Yo`DooR

12 Jun 2007, 10:05

I'd even go after Jason Gram :)

TruBlue

12 Jun 2007, 15:11

Forget the fact that Kosi is injury prone.

I don't think he's ever going to be the player he was pumped up to be.

I'm not saying Kosi is crap or anything like that i'm just saying maybe he's not as goos as what he was made out to be, the biggest problem i see with Kosi is he doesn't stay on his feet for a big guy he spends to much time falling over in contests.

Gilly1972

12 Jun 2007, 15:48

How many star ruckamn are there in the comp at any one time? Currently there's Cox and Sandilands (is he even a star or is he just a player with huge potential?)

Maybe Lade. Maybe Brogan (Port has the best ruck duo in the league). Maybe Charman. Maybe Everitt (he's a bit old and doesn't use the ball as well as he used to).

Quality rucks are pretty rare and extremely difficult to find. I don't want to end up like Brisbane or North in an endless search for a top class ruckman and end up with one good ruckman, a couple of average ones rotting on the list, and a couple of kids not getting a game. I'd rather take the mids and KPP we desperately need and hope that the prospects we do have stand up.

Here here :thumbsu:

HBF

12 Jun 2007, 19:54

My final word on this:

We need another ruckman on our list, even if it is as simple as replacing McLaren when he gets the chop at the end of the year. I'd much rather replace him with a 1st round (Kruezer) or second round (Bellchambers/McEvoy) than a ruckman later in the draft. We have to bite the bullet again and draft a ruckman.

In an ideal world, i'd love us to get in the draft:

First pick - Kruezer
Second pick onwards - Best Available

bluegal1983

12 Jun 2007, 20:17

Mids - yes
Defenders - No. We've covered that recently by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

I've read this thread and am confused by this comment HBF for the simple reason that you say we have covered the backline by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison yet you don't think we have covered the ruck by having guys like Hampson, Aisake, Jacobs developing in the Ants???

You backed up your "draft a ruckman" argument by saying the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs but I would say the same thing on Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

Bower has done nothing when he has been given a run in the seniors and the rest are yet to debut. IMO, the jury is still out on them as well.

The guys holding down these positions at the moment are doing a good job and the others are developing in the VFL. We don't have any pure midfielders developing in the VFL and IMHO that is our weakest link.

Hopefully we can fix that by throwing some money at an experienced mid out of contract at the end of the year.

As for who we go for in the draft, I don't think we need to concentrate on one particular area. I think we need to get the best available. The kids we have at the Ants are developing nicely and hopefully next year we will have our own VFL side. I think this will benefit them even more :thumbsu:

HBF

12 Jun 2007, 20:30

I've read this thread and am confused by this comment HBF for the simple reason that you say we have covered the backline by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison yet you don't think we have covered the ruck by having guys like Hampson, Aisake, Jacobs developing in the Ants???:

Because we have drafted heavily in defenders in recent times, with O'hailpin, Bower, Flint, Jamison, Austin, Anderson and even Edwards can play down there as well. That's 7 players. And we also have Thornton, Saddington, Banno, and even Waite has played down there as well.

You backed up your "draft a ruckman" argument by saying the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs but I would say the same thing on Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

Bower continues to do very well for the Ants, and has shown that he is too good for the VFL. It will only be a matter of time before he is a consistent fixture in the Carlton team. Flint was very close to selection last year before he was injured, and Austin and Jamison have shown glimpses in the VFL. The jury is still out on the defenders, I agree, but how many of these types can we have on our list?

Bower has done nothing when he has been given a run in the seniors and the rest are yet to debut. IMO, the jury is still out on them as well.

Perhaps giving him some more game time and not dropping him after 1 week might be a good start.

The guys holding down these positions at the moment are doing a good job and the others are developing in the VFL. We don't have any pure midfielders developing in the VFL and IMHO that is our weakest link.

I don't know why you guys think I am advocating not to get a mid. I am. BUT, we also need another good developong ruckman. IMHO, we should take a ruckman and a mid with our first 2 selections in this years draft.

Hopefully we can fix that by throwing some money at an experienced mid out of contract at the end of the year.

Judd, Dal Santo, come on down. :thumbsu:

As for who we go for in the draft, I don't think we need to concentrate on one particular area. I think we need to get the best available. The kids we have at the Ants are developing nicely and hopefully next year we will have our own VFL side. I think this will benefit them even more :thumbsu:

I'm sure WH and his team will do the right thing come November.