View Full Version : Welcome back Mass
birdmanptr
16 Jun 2007, 23:06
What a good return by Kris tonight fitted straight back in and showed the benifits of getting match fitness in the SANFL
NikkiNoo
16 Jun 2007, 23:10
He may not be the quickest player out there but he is down right clever and has a great football brain. :thumbsu:
Truck Rutten
16 Jun 2007, 23:13
Spot on people. He was fantastic tonight.
McLeodMagic
16 Jun 2007, 23:24
His first half was excellent tonight, did a lot of nice link up work.
Might trade him into my dream team. :D
maccas_no1
16 Jun 2007, 23:28
Massie was fantastic tonight, very important future player for the AFC:thumbsu:
maccas_no1
16 Jun 2007, 23:30
He may not be the quickest player out there but he is down right clever and has a great football brain. :thumbsu:
Loved that lil knock on he did through his legs to advantage, has great awareness:thumbsu:
Enjoyed his output. Was surprised he had 10 touches in the 1st but he is a quiet achiever :thumbsu:
Stiffy_18
16 Jun 2007, 23:40
He may not be the quickest player out there but he is down right clever and has a great football brain. :thumbsu:
What a gun with courage to boot1 :thumbsu:
That little tap between the legs out to his team mate was superb :thumbsu:
Rock on Kris Massie, rock on...
Kane McGoodwin
16 Jun 2007, 23:53
A great return by Kris. He set up quite a few of our goals.
When we start to get some players back there are going to be some hard selection decisions. At this stage in their careers, I would have Massie ahead of Torney.
Very smart footballer. He's not the quickest/strongest/most skillful footballer by any way of looking at it but he is one of the best brains in the AFL (except for running into that pocket, wtf?). Definitley in our best 22:thumbsu:
Punchy Bassett
17 Jun 2007, 00:00
Nuff said.
Punchy Bassett
17 Jun 2007, 00:04
Drummond and the Norwood lads, we were right.
Maybe now you might listen to us. :p
Drummond
17 Jun 2007, 00:08
Drummond and the Norwood lads, we were right.
Maybe now you might listen to us. :p
Agreed. :D :thumbsu:
I think you blokes have got a chance, but my hole is too deep. :p
Kickin_Goals
17 Jun 2007, 00:12
Loved that lil knock on he did through his legs to advantage, has great awareness:thumbsu:
Bah he'd just intercepted is own players passes like twice before he did that good make up play though.
Punchy Bassett
17 Jun 2007, 00:51
Bah he'd just intercepted is own players passes like twice before he did that good make up play though.
Woodville West Torrens Fan.
ams4crows
17 Jun 2007, 00:58
he was brilliant tonight!!
All my KrisMassie wishes came true...
macca23
17 Jun 2007, 01:02
He may not be the quickest player out there but he is down right clever and has a great football brain. :thumbsu:
And a first class guy to boot.
Had a very good game IMO. looked like he'd been in the 22 all year. :thumbsu:
AdelUniCrowFan
17 Jun 2007, 01:25
My only worry is who are the first out of the side when Reilly, Goodwin and Burton come up.
Massie, Jericho and Porplyzia would probably be the 3 in line. This would be extremely hard on both Massie and Porplyzia and extremely warranted with regard to Jericho.
At the start of the year the other possibilities would have been Doughty, Knights, Mattner, Van Berlo and Torney but I'd think only the latter would have anything to worry about at the moment even though he has been very consistent this year.
It'll be tough luck for whoever gets dropped.
Punchy Bassett
17 Jun 2007, 01:33
My only worry is who are the first out of the side when Reilly, Goodwin and Burton come up.
Massie, Jericho and Porplyzia would probably be the 3 in line. This would be extremely hard on both Massie and Porplyzia and extremely warranted with regard to Jericho.
At the start of the year the other possibilities would have been Doughty, Knights, Mattner, Van Berlo and Torney but I'd think only the latter would have anything to worry about at the moment even though he has been very consistent this year.
It'll be tough luck for whoever gets dropped.
Would take Porps or Mass over Doughty any day of the week.
Sanguinarius
17 Jun 2007, 02:39
missed the game due to work, but i'm glad that massie played AND did well.
easily my favourite non-vb player! :thumbsu:
Kickin_Goals
17 Jun 2007, 04:37
22 possessions played 54% of the game...
Jeebus man.
RoosterLad
17 Jun 2007, 04:37
Gun.
Kristof
17 Jun 2007, 09:45
Agreed. :D :thumbsu:
I think you blokes have got a chance, but my hole is too deep. :p
You've certainly been digging yourself a fair sized hole. ;)
Would take Porps or Mass over Doughty any day of the week.
So 28 possessions doesnt matter?
jenny61_99
17 Jun 2007, 10:21
Did anyone else notice how THIN Massie is? He seems to have lost a lot of weight - but the speed in those legs! Amazing chase down from the left back pocket to centre right wing was exceptional! Great return from the lad!:thumbsu:
Markthirtytwo
17 Jun 2007, 10:58
Did anyone else notice how THIN Massie is? He seems to have lost a lot of weight - but the speed in those legs! Amazing chase down from the left back pocket to centre right wing was exceptional! Great return from the lad!:thumbsu:
Having a broken jaw might have had something to do with it.
Markthirtytwo
17 Jun 2007, 10:59
Very smart footballer. He's not the quickest/strongest/most skillful footballer by any way of looking at it but he is one of the best brains in the AFL (except for running into that pocket, wtf?). Definitley in our best 22:thumbsu:
18 :thumbsu:
Punchy Bassett
17 Jun 2007, 11:30
So 28 possessions doesnt matter?
Not when he continually panics with the ball and handballs to players under pressure.
jenny61_99
17 Jun 2007, 14:30
Having a broken jaw might have had something to do with it.
Ya think? :D
Kane McGoodwin
17 Jun 2007, 14:36
My only worry is who are the first out of the side when Reilly, Goodwin and Burton come up.
Massie, Jericho and Porplyzia would probably be the 3 in line. This would be extremely hard on both Massie and Porplyzia and extremely warranted with regard to Jericho.
At the start of the year the other possibilities would have been Doughty, Knights, Mattner, Van Berlo and Torney but I'd think only the latter would have anything to worry about at the moment even though he has been very consistent this year.
It'll be tough luck for whoever gets dropped.
Going to be some tough calls no doubt. For me JT has been struggling a bit & would make way before Massie.
Also, who will make way for Perrie, who apparantly will come straight in against the Weagles?
Kane McGoodwin
17 Jun 2007, 14:38
Would take Porps or Mass over Doughty any day of the week.
Porps is a forward, so you are not comparing similar positional players.
Dogga has been playing good footy lately & has done nothing to warrant dropping.
CarnCrows
17 Jun 2007, 14:49
Well done Massie. Will make life tough for the selectors, but I would have Massie in.
jenny61_99
17 Jun 2007, 16:58
I would hate to be the selectors right now. I just hope the club makes it clear to whoever gets dropped that they are still very valued players at our club. Gee whiz though - Goodwin, Burton, Perrie, Reilly all back in against the Weagles; our side will look the strongest on paper that it has all year. Man I hope we win.
Perrie won't be back against the Weagles.
AdelUniCrowFan
17 Jun 2007, 20:07
After seeing that Massie's stats came from only 57% of the game I would hope that he is in the 22 for West Coast.
21 touches (=7th)
95% effective possessions (2nd)
8 marks (5th)
5 contested possessions (=8th)
5 inside 50s (1st)
topjars
18 Jun 2007, 13:23
I would have Massie ahead of Torney.
Absolutely agree.
Great game Kris.
Punchy Bassett
18 Jun 2007, 14:24
My only worry is who are the first out of the side when Reilly, Goodwin and Burton come up.
Massie, Jericho and Porplyzia would probably be the 3 in line. This would be extremely hard on both Massie and Porplyzia and extremely warranted with regard to Jericho.
At the start of the year the other possibilities would have been Doughty, Knights, Mattner, Van Berlo and Torney but I'd think only the latter would have anything to worry about at the moment even though he has been very consistent this year.
It'll be tough luck for whoever gets dropped.
Would take Porps or Mass over Doughty any day of the week.
Porps is a forward, so you are not comparing similar positional players.
Dogga has been playing good footy lately & has done nothing to warrant dropping.
I know that Porps is a forward I was just going by what was said in the post before me.
Jars458
18 Jun 2007, 15:29
Was our best in the first half in my view. His chasing was excellent and showed a good footy brain. Robbed of a goal by the goal umpire.
Good to have some selection headaches.
swanfan
18 Jun 2007, 16:23
Was our best in the first half in my view. His chasing was excellent and showed a good footy brain. Robbed of a goal by the goal umpire.
Good to have some selection headaches.
Walls' only decent comment for the night. That goal umpire should be sacked. :D
Redline
18 Jun 2007, 16:56
A lot of players could learn from Kris Massie as a player and how he conducts himself at the SANFL level. While he would always rather be playing for the Crows he commits himself 100% to Norwood when there, he goes to club functions and to watch training even when in the Crows team which doesn't always happen for guys who come from interstate. He has always said from day one by trying to be seen as a Norwood man while not at the Crows it helps him play more commited football. All round top bloke:thumbsu:
Kickin_Goals
19 Jun 2007, 00:56
Wow nice, dropping a person like that seems adverse to the type of ethic you want in your team.
Very zen.
Would suggest Jericho be learning from him.
Couldn't give a rats ass about officials that was a goal to me.
Respect is agree-ability and I don't agree.
brown30
19 Jun 2007, 10:54
Do people watch different Jason Torney games to the ones I'm seeing.
In my best 22 every day of the week and twice on fridays.
jenny61_99
19 Jun 2007, 13:11
Do people watch different Jason Torney games to the ones I'm seeing.
In my best 22 every day of the week and twice on fridays.
I wouldn't drop him ordinarily either. Does a heap of stuff off the ball. Perhaps though he is struggling a little with fitness? Out of the Massie and Torney we saw play on the weekend, you'd think Massie may just have the edge over Torney.
Kane McGoodwin
19 Jun 2007, 14:20
Do people watch different Jason Torney games to the ones I'm seeing.
In my best 22 every day of the week and twice on fridays.
JT's form has been solid, but far from great IMO.
With players returning, who do you think should make way instead?
There will be unlucky players missing out.
johnnypanther
20 Jun 2007, 11:32
Reilly, Goodwin & Burton are in our best 22,
therefore i see 3 positions available for:
- Shirley, Doughty, Torney, Massie, Porps, Jericho, and ...Douglas, etc ....
Obviously, form and team balance are major criteria but (since we want to win the premiership) I would also be looking closely at which of these players perform better under pressure such as will be experienced in the finals.
No room for soft performers and more importantly no room for those who will either cough the ball up under pressure or handball/dispose of it poorly and put a team mate under the hammer instead.
The selectors will really earn their money next time (although we do have training sessions which may solve the problem with further injuries :D)
Of those listed above, i think Douglas and Jericho will miss out, IMO Torney next (i put Massie above him), then i have great difficulty assessing where Porps rates, i'ld have to look at match ups against West Coast to decide who misses but (As a South supporter i wouldnt mind Torney & Doughty being dropped to the Panthers).
Just looking at our list, unless we trade away players for picks, the club is going to have a similar problem at the end of the season cutting at least 3.
crows98
20 Jun 2007, 11:47
Just looking at our list, unless we trade away players for picks, the club is going to have a similar problem at the end of the season cutting at least 3.
The way thing are sitting right now, it looks like we will have to delist more than the mandatory 3 players at the end of the season.
Andrew McIntyre and Taylor Walker look like player on the verge of being up graded to the primary list next year, and there are no guarantees Mark Ricciuto will want to hang the boots up.
Under AFL rules we need to have 3 selections in the AFL national draft, so that 5 already.
Redline
20 Jun 2007, 12:58
The way thing are sitting right now, it looks like we will have to delist more than the mandatory 3 players at the end of the season.
Andrew McIntyre and Taylor Walker look like player on the verge of being up graded to the primary list next year, and there are no guarantees Mark Ricciuto will want to hang the boots up.
Under AFL rules we need to have 3 selections in the AFL national draft, so that 5 already.
I don't think they will have much problem turning over the list. There are always tough decisions but that's footy. They will look to move on a couple of the older guys you would think.
roostersgal4eva
20 Jun 2007, 13:01
did catch some of the game and seeing him play, I wondered why its taken this long for him to be in the team?
KUNG FU
20 Jun 2007, 13:12
Do we need to start the de-list thread already? :eek::confused:
crows98
20 Jun 2007, 13:19
Do we need to start the de-list thread already? :eek::confused:
What does it matter?
No one had named anyone FFS, it was just stated that we will have to look at delisting more than the mandatory 3 players required.
But it’s all good as long as we can continue to bag Luke Jericho for everything and anything, just not talk about who may get delisted. :(
KUNG FU
20 Jun 2007, 13:41
What does it matter?
No one had named anyone FFS, it was just stated that we will have to look at delisting more than the mandatory 3 players required.
But it’s all good as long as we can continue to bag Luke Jericho for everything and anything, just not talk about who may get delisted. :(
The knives are out!
I'm not stopping anyone. It just usually leads to a lot of blood-letting and I like to wait until at least after we lose some games beyond the mid-season break.
So anyway, I'll get it started:
Jericho ;)
Kane McGoodwin
20 Jun 2007, 14:03
Reilly, Goodwin & Burton are in our best 22,
therefore i see 3 positions available for:
- Shirley, Doughty, Torney, Massie, Porps, Jericho, and ...Douglas, etc ....
Shirley in in our best-22. AFC think so too, so that leaves 2 positions.
Doughty has been a great form of late & there is buggar all chance of him being dropped by the selectors, even though some posters have it in for him.
That leaves 1 position available between the remaining players. Massie would be my pick, but I wouldn't be surprised if the selectors pick Torney of Porplyzia instead.
crows98
20 Jun 2007, 15:43
The knives are out!
I'm not stopping anyone. It just usually leads to a lot of blood-letting and I like to wait until at least after we lose some games beyond the mid-season break.
So anyway, I'll get it started:
Jericho ;)
NNNNooooooooooooooooo - i don't think anyone saw coming.
Jericho to be delisted, that's way out of left field.
KUNG FU
20 Jun 2007, 15:58
NNNNooooooooooooooooo - i don't think anyone saw coming.
Jericho to be delisted, that's way out of left field.
Well look, I say it as I see it and if you can't deal with my controversial opinions you should go elsewhere!
:D:D:D;););)
treeman
20 Jun 2007, 16:48
If it wasn't for a horrible umpiring mistake he would have had a goal to his name.
-Ben
Jars458
20 Jun 2007, 19:14
If it wasn't for a horrible umpiring mistake he would have had a goal to his name.
-Ben
Apparantly the umpiring department are saying it was an optical illusion and the ball did not hit the goal umpire.
Give me strength!!
Kane McGoodwin
20 Jun 2007, 19:47
Apparantly the umpiring department are saying it was an optical illusion and the ball did not hit the goal umpire.
Give me strength!!
This just makes them look worse!
IMO, they would get more credibility if they admitted their stuff-ups. They are after all only human ... but not admitting they sometimes make wrong decisions makes them look untouchable, regardless.
Some doubt as to if Burton may or may not be fit.
Could also be Chris Knights ''talking it up''
Todays Inside Football ( where Dandy-Go gets a mention) had a CK article and he mentioned players coming back and said Burton could be 2 weeks away still
Kane McGoodwin
20 Jun 2007, 19:59
Some doubt as to if Burton may or may not be fit.
Could also be Chris Knights ''talking it up''
Todays Inside Football ( where Dandy-Go gets a mention) had a CK article and he mentioned players coming back and said Burton could be 2 weeks away still
Just mentioned on the West Coast thread that Goodwin, Reilly & Perrie all look set to return, with Burton & Bode outside chances.
Carl Spackler
21 Jun 2007, 01:11
When we start to get some players back there are going to be some hard selection decisions. At this stage in their careers, I would have Massie ahead of Torney.
So would West Coast. They'd like us to keep Jericho in too please.
Kane McGoodwin
21 Jun 2007, 14:46
So would West Coast.
How do you figure that.
Are you suggesting Torney is in better form than Massie?
jenny61_99
21 Jun 2007, 15:14
Danger is bringing in too many under-done players at once against a formidable opponent. I hope they don't.
writeoff
21 Jun 2007, 17:46
Well done Massie on a great 1st game back into the Crows lineup. However I wouldn't rush to drop Torney as I believe he provides valuable contests in the defensive half. He has taken some crucial contested marks in recent games and also provides run from defense. He is one of those 'big bodied players' that the commentators are referring to when they mention the Crows. I do admit that he isn't in peak form atm but he is not alone. I'd also be hesitant to drop Porps as his ability to take a contested mark is also vital in the forward line if we are to play a more attacking style like we did against the Kangaroos. Of course that comes back to who to drop...
mightymightyblues
21 Jun 2007, 17:54
he was a decent server for the blues, i remember watching him play when he just burst onto the scene and was very impressed. does anyone know how u guys ended up with him? trade or a pick up?
he was a decent server for the blues, i remember watching him play when he just burst onto the scene and was very impressed. does anyone know how u guys ended up with him? trade or a pick up?
Direct player swap, no draft selections involved.
Carlton gave us Kris Massie, we gave them Andrew Eccles (long since delisted).
Kane McGoodwin
21 Jun 2007, 20:20
Danger is bringing in too many under-done players at once against a formidable opponent. I hope they don't.
I agree. I would suggest a maximum of 3 changes. If more than 3 are available to return, we would be better off playing some players back through the SANFL.
Kane McGoodwin
21 Jun 2007, 20:24
Well done Massie on a great 1st game back into the Crows lineup. However I wouldn't rush to drop Torney as I believe he provides valuable contests in the defensive half. He has taken some crucial contested marks in recent games and also provides run from defense. He is one of those 'big bodied players' that the commentators are referring to when they mention the Crows. I do admit that he isn't in peak form atm but he is not alone. I'd also be hesitant to drop Porps as his ability to take a contested mark is also vital in the forward line if we are to play a more attacking style like we did against the Kangaroos. Of course that comes back to who to drop...
With players returning, there is probably only room for 1 of Massie & Torney. Whoever misses out will be unlucky.
Carl Spackler
21 Jun 2007, 23:03
How do you figure that.
Are you suggesting Torney is in better form than Massie?
Yes. And that he is twice the player that Massie will ever be. I know there are a number of posters here who don't really rate Torney and describe him as 'last picked' quite often. I don't think these people really understand the quality of what they are seeing. Last week I defended Torney here...
www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2 (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2)
...and compared him to Mark Waugh. Mark Waugh copped similar criticism due to his casual manner and often the brilliance of his performances were undervalued because he made it look so damn easy. I remember the test series in India (which we ended up losing 2-1) when Harbhajan took 30 odd wickets. In the last test Australia were trying to defend 150 and I think India ended up passing the score 8 or 9 down. The fifth day wicket was playing lower and lower and the slips were getting closer and closer. Mark Waugh took two of the quickest, most brilliant catches I have ever seen off McGrath's bowling low down at second slip. The trouble was he made them both look like he was shelling peas. Regulation. Minimal highlights. Not eye catching, just sheer quality and rarely seen skill that was not obvious to the casual observer.
Earlier in the innings he caught a diving one hander at mid wicket off a ball that ballooned to his right. Good catch, but much lower down the difficulty scale than the other two. Of course the diving one hander was replayed a million times.
I urge those who think Torney is just a handy, run-of-the-mill footballer to really watch him closely over the next couple of matches. In particular watch the times when he is in a 50/50 contest. Or when he finds himself outnumbered. Or when a team mate sets him up with an ordinary kick/handball. It is in these situations that you will see just how good a player he is.
How often do you hear this about certain Crows players: "He might make a few errors but you could never question his effort." This 'praise' is typically reserved for players who make it obvious through their flailing limbs and look of intense effort on their face that they are giving 100%. Torney barely looks like he raises a sweat. Also, no one would ever praise Torney's second efforts - that's because he never fumbles. Second and third efforts are over-rated anyway. Usually it means you have stuffed up under pressure and through perserverance have managed to limit the damage of your initial error.
I think that Torney's performances as a footballer get overlooked in the same way that Ben Hart's first quarter in the 1998 Grand Final is forgotten (by some) due to the brilliance of McLeod and Jarman in the second half.
maccas_no1
21 Jun 2007, 23:47
Danger is bringing in too many under-done players at once against a formidable opponent. I hope they don't.
I agree, NC shows faith in his players and wont make whole sale changes unless they are needed, I honestly cant see anymore than two changes for the game against West Coast.
maccas_no1
21 Jun 2007, 23:49
Yes. And that he is twice the player that Massie will ever be. I know there are a number of posters here who don't really rate Torney and describe him as 'last picked' quite often. I don't think these people really understand the quality of what they are seeing. Last week I defended Torney here...
www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2 (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2)
...and compared him to Mark Waugh. Mark Waugh copped similar criticism due to his casual manner and often the brilliance of his performances were undervalued because he made it look so damn easy. I remember the test series in India (which we ended up losing 2-1) when Harbhajan took 30 odd wickets. In the last test Australia were trying to defend 150 and I think India ended up passing the score 8 or 9 down. The fifth day wicket was playing lower and lower and the slips were getting closer and closer. Mark Waugh took two of the quickest, most brilliant catches I have ever seen off McGrath's bowling low down at second slip. The trouble was he made them both look like he was shelling peas. Regulation. Minimal highlights. Not eye catching, just sheer quality and rarely seen skill that was not obvious to the casual observer.
Earlier in the innings he caught a diving one hander at mid wicket off a ball that ballooned to his right. Good catch, but much lower down the difficulty scale than the other two. Of course the diving one hander was replayed a million times.
I urge those who think Torney is just a handy, run-of-the-mill footballer to really watch him closely over the next couple of matches. In particular watch the times when he is in a 50/50 contest. Or when he finds himself outnumbered. Or when a team mate sets him up with an ordinary kick/handball. It is in these situations that you will see just how good a player he is.
How often do you hear this about certain Crows players: "He might make a few errors but you could never question his effort." This 'praise' is typically reserved for players who make it obvious through their flailing limbs and look of intense effort on their face that they are giving 100%. Torney barely looks like he raises a sweat. Also, no one would ever praise Torney's second efforts - that's because he never fumbles. Second and third efforts are over-rated anyway. Usually it means you have stuffed up under pressure and through perserverance have managed to limit the damage of your initial error.
I think that Torney's performances as a footballer get overlooked in the same way that Ben Hart's first quarter in the 1998 Grand Final is forgotten (by some) due to the brilliance of McLeod and Jarman in the second half.
Torney is a great player no doubt but to say Massie isnt on par with him down right rubbish.
Im starting to think you are related to a few other posters on this board:rolleyes:
Carl Spackler
22 Jun 2007, 00:52
Torney is a great player no doubt but to say Massie isnt on par with him down right rubbish.
Not in the same stratosphere.
Crow-mo
22 Jun 2007, 01:08
Not in the same stratosphere.
Carl, whilst i think you overrate JT a little, and perhaps underrate Mass a little, you're pretty much on the money here.
there is a quality to Torney that sets him apart.
I urge those who think Torney is just a handy, run-of-the-mill footballer to really watch him closely over the next couple of matches. In particular watch the times when he is in a 50/50 contest. Or when he finds himself outnumbered. Or when a team mate sets him up with an ordinary kick/handball. It is in these situations that you will see just how good a player he is.
I don't think that there are light years of difference between Torney and Massie, and one game of Kris Massie is too much to write a form line through to compare with JT's season to date.
Having said that, if I had to pick someone for our back 6, I choose Torney over Massie 100% of the time - for the reasons that Carl explains above. He just understands how to play contested football, and the right way to play defensively.
Yes. And that he is twice the player that Massie will ever be. I know there are a number of posters here who don't really rate Torney and describe him as 'last picked' quite often. I don't think these people really understand the quality of what they are seeing. Last week I defended Torney here...
www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2 (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337075&page=2)
...and compared him to Mark Waugh. Mark Waugh copped similar criticism due to his casual manner and often the brilliance of his performances were undervalued because he made it look so damn easy. I remember the test series in India (which we ended up losing 2-1) when Harbhajan took 30 odd wickets. In the last test Australia were trying to defend 150 and I think India ended up passing the score 8 or 9 down. The fifth day wicket was playing lower and lower and the slips were getting closer and closer. Mark Waugh took two of the quickest, most brilliant catches I have ever seen off McGrath's bowling low down at second slip. The trouble was he made them both look like he was shelling peas. Regulation. Minimal highlights. Not eye catching, just sheer quality and rarely seen skill that was not obvious to the casual observer.
Earlier in the innings he caught a diving one hander at mid wicket off a ball that ballooned to his right. Good catch, but much lower down the difficulty scale than the other two. Of course the diving one hander was replayed a million times.
I urge those who think Torney is just a handy, run-of-the-mill footballer to really watch him closely over the next couple of matches. In particular watch the times when he is in a 50/50 contest. Or when he finds himself outnumbered. Or when a team mate sets him up with an ordinary kick/handball. It is in these situations that you will see just how good a player he is.
How often do you hear this about certain Crows players: "He might make a few errors but you could never question his effort." This 'praise' is typically reserved for players who make it obvious through their flailing limbs and look of intense effort on their face that they are giving 100%. Torney barely looks like he raises a sweat. Also, no one would ever praise Torney's second efforts - that's because he never fumbles. Second and third efforts are over-rated anyway. Usually it means you have stuffed up under pressure and through perserverance have managed to limit the damage of your initial error.
I think that Torney's performances as a footballer get overlooked in the same way that Ben Hart's first quarter in the 1998 Grand Final is forgotten (by some) due to the brilliance of McLeod and Jarman in the second half.
Mark Waugh was rarely (if ever) criticised for his fielding. He did, however, cop a regular bucketing for his batting.
As you say, he made the difficult look ridiculously easy. He was incredibly skillful. No doubt about it.
However, he also constantly managed to find new and inventive ways of getting out. Frequently to incredibly lazy shots. It was almost as if he found it so easy that he got bored, lost concentration and made a mistake.
Afghan was an unusual player in that he had an outstanding record against the better sides (West Indies at their peak), yet struggled against the weaker sides. Most probably for the reasons outlined above.
Most quality test batsmen manage to get at least one double century during their career. Even Jason Gillespie has managed this - albeit against a Bangladesh side which would be weaker than most district club sides in Australia. Mark Waugh's highest test score was 153. He is the only player in Australia's top 10 run scorers to never have scored a double ton. Actually, there's only one other player in the top 17 (Ian Chappell - who had a HS of 196) without a 200 to his credit.
He was always considered one of our brightest talents, but one who was never truly fulfilled his potential due to a lack of application. Given that he's #4 on our all-time highest test run scorers, imagine how good he could have been...
Carl Spackler
23 Jun 2007, 19:13
This is exactly the sort of criticism Waugh copped during his career and IMO it was unjustified. Lazy shot, lack of footwork, caught on the crease, not switched on, hitting across the line, throwing his innings away etc. The thing was that was how he looked like all the time!
He would clip a ball from off stump through square leg for four and people would stand and applaud a genius at work. Play the same shot but get out lbw and the criticism starts. What kind of shot was that? Ridiculous IMO and very lazy commentating. Tony Greig was the king. Waugh would come down the wicket to a spinner and get stumped - "very silly shot indeed" - but if the ball had cleared the fence he would have been the one waxing lyrical about it.
I hate the perception that Waugh didn't get the best out of himself. To have a 50 average in test cricket you need the following:
1) To have a high level of ability (obviously)
2) To have a number of not outs
3) To be able to fill your boots when you have the opposition beaten
Waugh possessed No. 1 in spades but didn't have Nos. 2 or 3. To be honest who gives a stuff about 2 or 3? Doesn't get me excited. Lara's hundred against us in the Carribean when he put on 40 with Courtney Walsh (!) for the last wicket to win the test was a better innings than his 277, 375 or his 400 IMO. Give me a bloke who averages 40 and wins us games against the best opposition rather than a bloke who averages more but is found wanting when we really need him to stand up.
In general, I think players should be judged more harshly on the games that are the most important, are against the best opposition or that have the most riding on them. There should be more scrutiny and more weight given to these instances. Averages can be misleading. I remember Michael Slater being made to look like a village cricketer by Wasim Akram in 95/96. He followed it up with 219 against Pushpakumara and the rest of the Sri Lankan 'pace' brigade at the WACA. Yes Massie was excellent in our runaway victory over the Kangaroos but I don't think you should draw too many conclusions from that.
jenny61_99
23 Jun 2007, 21:56
Yes Massie was excellent in our runaway victory over the Kangaroos but I don't think you should draw too many conclusions from that.
Perhaps Massie fans may think you are doing a "Mark Waugh" on him (as you accuse others of doing on Torney). ;) And I don't honestly think either Torney OR Massie are overly endowed with natural ability, rather both of them are solid workers who give their all to the task at hand. As brilliant as Mark Waugh was, I don't believe he ever gave it 100%. I think he DID play lazy shots and he did get out many times far too softly. How good would he have been if he had have had the focus and tunnel vision of his brother!
Crow-mo
23 Jun 2007, 22:21
Perhaps Massie fans may think you are doing a "Mark Waugh" on him (as you accuse others of doing on Torney). ;) And I don't honestly think either Torney OR Massie are overly endowed with natural ability, rather both of them are solid workers who give their all to the task at hand. As brilliant as Mark Waugh was, I don't believe he ever gave it 100%. I think he DID play lazy shots and he did get out many times far too softly. How good would he have been if he had have had the focus and tunnel vision of his brother!
sorry, but that's just a paragraph proudly outlining how you don't pay close attention to any of these subjects.
jenny61_99
24 Jun 2007, 23:10
sorry, but that's just a paragraph proudly outlining how you don't pay close attention to any of these subjects.
How do you figure that?
I like, and rate, both players - although probably lean more towards the Torney side of the fence. I don't agree with the Waugh analogy though as provided by Carl (hence my comments), as I believe Mark didn't live up to his amazing ability. IMO he had twice the ability but half the application of his brother. I don't believe Torney has twice the ability and half the application - I believe he is a good solid footballer who works his ass off week in, week out. I think Massie is the same (albeit to a lesser degree). Neither of them dripping with natural ability but both willing to do what is necessary for the team. Both, however, ARE constantly under-rated and under-valued by the masses and on this point I agree.
Perhaps it is you that doesn't have an understanding of what Carl was talking about?
Carl Spackler
24 Jun 2007, 23:47
I don't agree with the Waugh analogy though as provided by Carl (hence my comments), as I believe Mark didn't live up to his amazing ability. IMO he had twice the ability but half the application of his brother.
I guess Mark will be dogged forever by the belief that he didn't get the best out of himself, correct or otherwise. He doesn't seem to be much of an author but I'd be interested to hear whether he looks back on his career with some regret or whether he is frustrated by this perception.
I remember hearing a story about golfer Fred Couples. He has the easiest, most relaxed golf swing you've ever seen. Still manages to hit it 350 yards but makes it look absolutely effortless. Someone asked him once "Hey Freddie, how come you don't swing harder and really try to crush the ball?"
He replied "What use is a 600 yard drive on a 400 yard Par 4?"
jenny61_99
25 Jun 2007, 12:13
I guess Mark will be dogged forever by the belief that he didn't get the best out of himself, correct or otherwise. He doesn't seem to be much of an author but I'd be interested to hear whether he looks back on his career with some regret or whether he is frustrated by this perception.
I remember hearing a story about golfer Fred Couples. He has the easiest, most relaxed golf swing you've ever seen. Still manages to hit it 350 yards but makes it look absolutely effortless. Someone asked him once "Hey Freddie, how come you don't swing harder and really try to crush the ball?"
He replied "What use is a 600 yard drive on a 400 yard Par 4?"
And I guess the thing is, no matter what we believe about Mark Waugh, we will never actually know how much better he could have been.
I wonder if he had a report card during his school years "Mark would do much better if he just applied himself". :D
Do you honestly put Torney in that same category though?
Kane McGoodwin
25 Jun 2007, 14:13
I guess Mark will be dogged forever by the belief that he didn't get the best out of himself, correct or otherwise. He doesn't seem to be much of an author but I'd be interested to hear whether he looks back on his career with some regret or whether he is frustrated by this perception.
I'm with Jenny as I reckon Mark Waugh underachieved with an average in the low-40's batting in the prime #4 spot, when most of the other batsman around him were averaging around 50. Imagine if Darren Lehmann was given the prized #4 spot later in M Waugh's career, as IMO he would have made the Australian team even better.
Kane McGoodwin
25 Jun 2007, 14:14
I don't believe Torney has twice the ability and half the application - I believe he is a good solid footballer who works his ass off week in, week out. I think Massie is the same (albeit to a lesser degree). Neither of them dripping with natural ability but both willing to do what is necessary for the team. Both, however, ARE constantly under-rated and under-valued by the masses and on this point I agree.
Spot on IMO.
Carl Spackler
25 Jun 2007, 18:58
Do you honestly put Torney in that same category though?
No, I only was comparing their style of play, not so much their output.
Carl Spackler
25 Jun 2007, 19:09
I'm with Jenny as I reckon Mark Waugh underachieved with an average in the low-40's batting in the prime #4 spot, when most of the other batsman around him were averaging around 50. Imagine if Darren Lehmann was given the prized #4 spot later in M Waugh's career, as IMO he would have made the Australian team even better.
Come on. I love Boof as much as the next South Australian but he was never the player Mark Waugh was. He made five tons for Australia - including two against Sri Lanka and two against Bangladesh. He was a masterful player of spin and could toy with mediocre attacks but wasn't completely at home against quick bowling. Should have played more tests on the subcontinent though.
Kane McGoodwin
25 Jun 2007, 20:13
Come on. I love Boof as much as the next South Australian but he was never the player Mark Waugh was. He made five tons for Australia - including two against Sri Lanka and two against Bangladesh. He was a masterful player of spin and could toy with mediocre attacks but wasn't completely at home against quick bowling. Should have played more tests on the subcontinent though.
IMO Boof was a better player than Mark Waugh, particularly as he never didn't play for Australia in his prime. Boof averaged 45 with the bat (striking at 62) & 27 with his under-rated bowling. Mark Waugh averaged 42 (striking at 52) & averaged 41 with the ball ... though his fielding was obviously superior. To suggest the Sri Lankan attack on their deck in mediocre is inaccurate, as not many batsman have had success over there. IMO, dropping Boof cost us the Ashes, just for his leadership alone.